No nudes is good nudes...in Nebraska - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Bill O'Rights · 11-23-2004, 09:39 AM

Quote:

LINCOLN - A McCook, Neb., elementary school principal said she was protecting students last week when she asked that a drape cover a painting in a traveling art exhibit that included a semi-nude woman. Kathy Latta, who oversees two kindergarten through third-grade schools in McCook, said a second-grade teacher first raised concerns about the painting, "Widow's Walk" by James Cantrell, after her students visited the exhibit.

Latta said she requested the draping after viewing the painting herself at a McCook museum.

"I didn't think that was appropriate for kindergartners to third-graders to see during school time," Latta said. "If parents want to do that outside school time, that's fine."

At least one local parent called the incident a clear case of censorship.

"One person's opinion is deciding for everyone what is art and what isn't - she can decide for herself, not for all of us," said Lorri Sughroue of McCook, mother of three daughters.

The action brought mixed reviews from those contacted in McCook, a southwestern Nebraska city of 8,000 people. It also revived memories of a similar draping of a sculpture in a traveling exhibit a decade ago.

"Widow's Walk" was among 25 pieces in an annual, traveling exhibit sponsored by the Sheldon Memorial Art Gallery in Lincoln called "No Place like Home."

The exhibit, which explores the meaning of home and homelessness in America, opened in June at the Sheldon and was shown in Chadron and North Platte before opening Nov. 15 at the High Plains Museum in McCook. The exhibit continues next year with stops in Fremont, Aurora, Columbus, Grand Island and Nebraska City.

A Sheldon spokeswoman said although it's up to each community to decide what's appropriate for each age group, the human body has been a subject for artists for centuries and is something schoolchildren "see" at home.

"It's not pornography. It's not meant to be sexual. It's artwork," said marketing director Jessica Kennedy. "But values do differ, and people may choose not to show that to young students."

She added that a North Platte school principal had sent a letter of concern about the painting when it was shown there.

In "Widow's Walk," the side profile of a woman, wearing a brassiere and nothing else, is visible through an upstairs window of a Victorian home.

"Widow's Walk," was included in the exhibit for its depiction of architecture and its reference to privacy. The woman, whose face is in the shadows, appears to be pictured while undressing.

The artist, Cantrell, is a Wilber, Neb., native who attended the University of Nebraska-Lincoln and now lives in Kentucky.

Barb Michaelis, a volunteer co-chairwoman of the exhibit, said that when she escorted a group of third-graders through the exhibit last week, there was little reaction to the painting. But a group of first-graders began giggling when they saw "Widow's Walk."

"It was a distraction," Michaelis said. "I couldn't keep their attention afterwards."

Another volunteer tour guide, Kay Flaska, said she disagreed with the draping and wasn't offended by the painting. "In my view," she said, "we see far worse things in TV and movies, even catalogs."

Michaelis acknowledged that views were divided within the local art guild, but she decided to use caution.

"We didn't quite know what to do," she said. "In a sense it's censorship, but then again people have a right to censor what their children see."

Michaelis said that the draping affected only school visits and that the McCook High School art teacher will decide whether students of that age see the painting.

Kennedy, of the Sheldon, said the controversy will prompt a discussion about the works sent on traveling exhibits. The gallery, she said, may opt for more training of outstate volunteers so they can better explain pieces that might draw community controversy.

Though it's a rare occurrence, it wasn't the first time that a piece of art on a Sheldon exhibit has been draped.

About a decade ago, an abstract, bronze sculpture, "Sarcophagus of Angelica" by Alexander Archipenko, was said to show a couple involved in sex. Michaelis said the work was draped after complaints by a conservative group of home-school advocates. The work may have been draped elsewhere, Kennedy said.

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_pg=1640&u_sid=1266498

All I can say is, I think that the bigger the deal is made over this, then the more attention it generates. People need to grow up and pull the stick out.

Captain Canada · 11-23-2004, 09:47 AM

Yeah, I think that's really retarded. Nudity in art is not a big deal. It's art. Art is beautiful.

Shirtninja · 11-23-2004, 10:09 AM

How stupid. Maybe if people spent less time protecting children from the "harms of the world" and more time just spending time with them and being a part of their life we wouldnt have so many problems.

stonegrody · 11-23-2004, 10:22 AM

I think the painting next to this one of a guy with binoculars jerking off in the bushes was much worse. He was covered up by the bush so I guess that's "art". Go figure.

kutulu · 11-23-2004, 10:24 AM

Wow, I bet Ashcroft filed for divorce when he heard about this. Talk about his dream girl!

Cadwiz · 11-23-2004, 10:27 AM

There is no way to win in these situations. If they hadn't draped it, someone would have complained about that. Can't make anyone happy without pissin' of someone else.

ARTelevision · 11-23-2004, 10:29 AM

...this is just so very common in schools.

...happens all the time.

our schools are very low level and do not educate our citizens in any significant way about what it is to be human.

ObieX · 11-23-2004, 10:45 AM

If you don't want a child to be exposed to art, taking them to an art museum isn't the best idea.

pig · 11-23-2004, 10:53 AM

If it was my kid, I'd prefer that they saw the art, sans drape. However, as the son of a public school teacher, I can easily relate to the teacher's position. Perhaps she is the Bride of Ashcroft, but even if she's not, it's a tough situaton to be in, as Cadwiz says. I used to pull my hair out just listening to some of the phone conversations my mother had with parents and administrators about things like discussion of Christian analogies in The Lord of the Flies and whether or not my family worshipped Satan all the time, or only occasionally. It ain't easy.

That said, I'd probably still let them see it if I were the teacher, especially as it's not really that pronounced. It's not the visual counterpart of The Vagina Monologues or anything.

maestroxl · 11-23-2004, 10:55 AM

Ridiculous. That the sight of an unsexual nude body would be considered inappropriate is a sign of the distressingly puritanical mood of the country at present.

Blackthorn · 11-23-2004, 11:05 AM

That picture is fantastic! I would not in any way object to my kindergarten aged child viewing that....it's remarkable to me that this was any slightest concern.

pig · 11-23-2004, 11:11 AM

You know, now that I think about it, we had something like this when I was in school. The way they handled it was to send a form home with us before the field trip, and if our parents objected to us viewing the artwork, then we didn't see those particular pieces. I think about 2 kids out of a few hundred didn't view the pieces. Their loss.

maleficent · 11-23-2004, 11:12 AM

I'm not quite sure why that picture is considered art... but... if you hadn't said there was an almost nekkid woman in the picture, I wouldn't have even noticed it, I doubt most other people would either.

kutulu · 11-23-2004, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

I'm not quite sure why that picture is considered art...

Just what is that supposed to mean? It's a painting. Why wouldn't it be considered art?

cheebsteralpha · 11-23-2004, 11:17 AM

Its truly sick when the beauty of the human form is seen as something filthy. Im no nudist, but I can seperate nudity from sexuality. IE: I dont feel aroused when viewing some of Renoir's plethora of nude paintings.

World's King · 11-23-2004, 11:23 AM

Gross. Girls are icky.

pig · 11-23-2004, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheebsteralpha

I dont feel aroused when viewing some of Renoir's plethora of nude paintings.

Shoot, sometimes I do...is that wrong?

/channels Arsenio Hall
Because if liking erotic art is wrong...I don't wanna be right.
/channelling over

BenChuy · 11-23-2004, 11:35 AM

The fact that sex, even the attractiveness of the human body is something that these foolish little puritans can't tell their children about or even expose them to is not our loss, right?
Well, in the European arena, art and apprication for the human body (allong with understanding that it is natural) is something that is thoroughly exposed and for the most part have less sexually transmitted disease, teen pregnancy and more public patronage of artistic works/goings on.

If we let this idea of "degenerate art" existing, the whole society will begin to suffer from it. And what is sad is that only the ones who have grown to appreciate artistic works will notice.

cheebsteralpha · 11-23-2004, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigglet

Shoot, sometimes I do...is that wrong?

I should have clarified a bit more, by aroused, I meant aroused like WHOA!

No, there is nothing wrong with finding the women in his work attractive, but when I look at a painting such as his, I find myself more preoccupied with the flow of the paint, the compostition, the color, etc.

When I was a young child, I remember going to an art museum, in said museum there was tons upon tons of art, and of course I asked why the people were nude in the paintings, my parents thought for a second, and then proceeded to tell me about the purity of the intent in said pieces and that it was a portrayal of beauty, not a form of pornography, but they did not neglect to say that there was a difference between nudity & beauty, and pornographic material.

Xell101 · 11-23-2004, 12:27 PM

Beyond the childish reaction of awe at generally suppressed material disrupting the ability of the teacher to get the class through the exhibit, I see no problem with it. Covering the painting is absolutely absurd, it's excessive, unreasonable, and reflective of a few ills of society.

On a side note, I blame consumerism, we wouldn't be able to get nearly as much crap moved if most people possessed a strong sense of their humanity.

drawerfixer · 11-23-2004, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigglet

If it was my kid, I'd prefer that they saw the art, sans drape. However, as the son of a public school teacher, I can easily relate to the teacher's position. Perhaps she is the Bride of Ashcroft, but even if she's not, it's a tough situaton to be in, as Cadwiz says. I used to pull my hair out just listening to some of the phone conversations my mother had with parents and administrators about things like discussion of Christian analogies in The Lord of the Flies and whether or not my family worshipped Satan all the time, or only occasionally. It ain't easy.

That said, I'd probably still let them see it if I were the teacher, especially as it's not really that pronounced. It's not the visual counterpart of The Vagina Monologues or anything.

Very well said! As the son of two teachers, I learned quite a bit about various parent opinions, teaching philosophies, and the school system.

Things such as this are invariably more complex than can be expressed by most journalists.

With that said, I find this ridiculous.

flstf · 11-23-2004, 01:13 PM

You would think that with the billions of human bodies on this planet that eventually we would refrain from being offended by the sight of them.

crafty · 11-23-2004, 01:29 PM

There's no reason for anyone to be upset. Like the teacher said, any parents are free to bring their children back to see it.

She just didn't want to be liable.. people have lost their jobs over stupid shit like that.

xxSquirtxx · 11-23-2004, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Original King

Gross. Girls are icky.

I know you're being sarcastic, but you make an excellent point. Why is such a painting even necessary for kindergarteners through 3rd graders? Or even 5th graders? My 10 year old would say exactly the same thing..."gross." So, why would I bother trying to explain to him the beauty of the human form when he'll be obsessed with it in three years anyway?

I think everyone is making a mountain out of a molehill...and can you blame the teacher for protecting her own ass?

I wonder if they allowed any blatant religious artwork.

Slavakion · 11-23-2004, 04:59 PM

You know what? Why do we have a problem with children seeing nudity and knowing the "secrets" of sex/sexuality? They have their own parts... and all it does is hype everything up to the point where grade schoolers discuss the latest "info" at lunch. The things we came up with...
/slightly rambling post

xxSquirtxx · 11-23-2004, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slavakion

You know what? Why do we have a problem with children seeing nudity and knowing the "secrets" of sex/sexuality? They have their own parts... and all it does is hype everything up to the point where grade schoolers discuss the latest "info" at lunch. The things we came up with...
/slightly rambling post

I disagree. Kids are going to do that no matter what - whether they've seen a benign naked picture or not. And so what. *shrug*

slimshaydee · 11-23-2004, 06:49 PM

Was that all the picture was, half the kids wouldn't have even noticed it, and when they did they would probably go oh look an ass and have a giggle and that would be that.

Slavakion · 11-24-2004, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxSquirtxx

I disagree. Kids are going to do that no matter what - whether they've seen a benign naked picture or not. And so what. *shrug*

Exactly. If we tell them the truth, they don't have to be "re-educated" with the right information. Although it is kind of a rite of passage for kids...

Whatever. People need to be less uptight about... well... everything.

xxSquirtxx · 11-24-2004, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slavakion

Exactly. If we tell them the truth, they don't have to be "re-educated" with the right information. Although it is kind of a rite of passage for kids...

Whatever. People need to be less uptight about... well... everything.

Well, I think many here are under the impression that the kids will be told "Oh, this is dirty/obscene.....", when in fact it's just a simple omission of a picture. Not a big deal, and hardly will the kids need to be "re-educated" from a deviant thought process. It seems to me both sides are making too much out of it.

ObieX · 11-24-2004, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigglet

You know, now that I think about it, we had something like this when I was in school. The way they handled it was to send a form home with us before the field trip, and if our parents objected to us viewing the artwork, then we didn't see those particular pieces. I think about 2 kids out of a few hundred didn't view the pieces. Their loss.

Ahh the Permission Slip, sent by the gods themselves. This is all that was needed and nothing more.

xxSquirtxx · 11-24-2004, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ObieX

Ahh the Permission Slip, sent by the gods themselves. This is all that was needed and nothing more.

Ding, ding, ding!!!!

KinkyKiwi · 11-24-2004, 10:58 AM

oh for gods sake..all you can see is a tush...and i grew up around art an di'm not too messed up...

this is just silly

pig · 11-24-2004, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KinkyKiwi

oh for gods sake..all you can see is a tush...and i grew up around art an di'm not too messed up...

biased opinion?

vox_rox · 11-24-2004, 03:24 PM

It's the same issue over and over. Banning books from libraries for using obscene words (Mark Twain said "nigger" - The bastard should be arrested and charged!), words like ass and bullshit being bleeped out of movies and television programs - it's all ridiculous.

I was watching a movie on TBS about three months ago when one guy points a gun at another ganster type, and says "You're dead mutherfucka" and shoots him in the forehead. Well, they bleep out the "motherfucka" part, but not the shot to the head. You tell me what would be more disturbing.

Swearing bad. Sex VERY bad. Shooting people in the head, um, well, whatever.

Hmm....

Pierre

Stiltzkin · 11-24-2004, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

our schools are very low level and do not educate our citizens in any significant way about what it is to be human.

I agree with this so much that to me, this is now a wise old proverb that you find in books and Google searches for "proverbs". I ought to know, being a product of the generation that has been subject to this.

hotzot · 11-25-2004, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stonegrody

I think the painting next to this one of a guy with binoculars jerking off in the bushes was much worse. He was covered up by the bush so I guess that's "art". Go figure.

Christ this made me laugh!! Thanks !!!

maestroxl · 11-25-2004, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slavakion

Why do we have a problem with children seeing nudity and knowing the "secrets" of sex/sexuality? They have their own parts... and all it does is hype everything up to the point where grade schoolers discuss the latest "info" at lunch.

I totally agree. The puritans make such a fuss about these things it's counterproductive. The mere mention or--worse--sight of a sexual organ drives them to convulsions and loud denunciations of the horrific transgression to the point that it's blown all out of proportion and the natural state of nudity (or are they not naked under their clothes like the rest of us?) becomes unnatural and wrong. Kids can't talk about sex as a natural part of life and their sexual education suffers. "Be ashamed! Be very ashamed!" It's absurd. It's pathetic.

shortynickel · 11-26-2004, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

I'm not quite sure why that picture is considered art... but... if you hadn't said there was an almost nekkid woman in the picture, I wouldn't have even noticed it, I doubt most other people would either.

i was actually wondering that myself...i can see why that women got upset tho...but i dont think its as big of a deal as she made it

Kalnaur · 11-26-2004, 10:39 PM

As an art major, this really disappoints me. Every time I think that we as a nation have worked past our uptightness, I am reminded of how far we have not made it.

sailor · 11-27-2004, 02:27 PM

*sigh* More PC bullshit from the public school system.

I came home for thanksgiving to find that my little brother's middle school is doing equally stupid things--cant have nail clippers at school (might use it as a knife!), carabiners (might use them as brass knuckles!), among other stupid things. A student just got suspended for 10 days because he had some window washing fluid in his backpack that contained ammonia, and school officials suspended him because it could be use to make a bomb. I think Ive lost about all faith in our school system. Dont they have better things to be spending their time and money on?

11-23-2004, 09:47 AM	#2 (permalink)
Captain Canada Addict Location: University of North Carolina at Greensboro	Yeah, I think that's really retarded. Nudity in art is not a big deal. It's art. Art is beautiful. __________________ Conclusion: Flamethrowers and Furries go togerther like Pol Pot and the Cambodian populace.

11-23-2004, 10:22 AM	#4 (permalink)
stonegrody Brooding. Location: CA-USA	I think the painting next to this one of a guy with binoculars jerking off in the bushes was much worse. He was covered up by the bush so I guess that's "art". Go figure. __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality. Embrace this moment. Remember. We are eternal. All this pain is an illusion. Tool - Parabola

11-23-2004, 10:27 AM	#6 (permalink)
Cadwiz Insane Location: work	There is no way to win in these situations. If they hadn't draped it, someone would have complained about that. Can't make anyone happy without pissin' of someone else. __________________ Semper Fi

11-23-2004, 10:29 AM	#7 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	...this is just so very common in schools. ...happens all the time. our schools are very low level and do not educate our citizens in any significant way about what it is to be human. __________________ create evolution

11-23-2004, 10:45 AM	#8 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	If you don't want a child to be exposed to art, taking them to an art museum isn't the best idea. __________________ We Must Dissent.

11-23-2004, 10:09 AM	#3 (permalink)
Shirtninja Tilted Location: Texas	How stupid. Maybe if people spent less time protecting children from the "harms of the world" and more time just spending time with them and being a part of their life we wouldnt have so many problems.

11-23-2004, 10:24 AM	#5 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Wow, I bet Ashcroft filed for divorce when he heard about this. Talk about his dream girl!

11-23-2004, 10:53 AM	#9 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	If it was my kid, I'd prefer that they saw the art, sans drape. However, as the son of a public school teacher, I can easily relate to the teacher's position. Perhaps she is the Bride of Ashcroft, but even if she's not, it's a tough situaton to be in, as Cadwiz says. I used to pull my hair out just listening to some of the phone conversations my mother had with parents and administrators about things like discussion of Christian analogies in The Lord of the Flies and whether or not my family worshipped Satan all the time, or only occasionally. It ain't easy. That said, I'd probably still let them see it if I were the teacher, especially as it's not really that pronounced. It's not the visual counterpart of The Vagina Monologues or anything. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style Last edited by pig; 11-23-2004 at 10:56 AM..

11-23-2004, 10:55 AM	#10 (permalink)
maestroxl buck fush Location: Tucson, AZ	Ridiculous. That the sight of an unsexual nude body would be considered inappropriate is a sign of the distressingly puritanical mood of the country at present. __________________ be the change you want

11-23-2004, 11:05 AM	#11 (permalink)
Blackthorn Beware the Mad Irish Location: Wish I was on the N17...	That picture is fantastic! I would not in any way object to my kindergarten aged child viewing that....it's remarkable to me that this was any slightest concern. __________________ What are you willing to give up in order to get what you want?

11-23-2004, 11:11 AM	#12 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	You know, now that I think about it, we had something like this when I was in school. The way they handled it was to send a form home with us before the field trip, and if our parents objected to us viewing the artwork, then we didn't see those particular pieces. I think about 2 kids out of a few hundred didn't view the pieces. Their loss. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

11-23-2004, 11:12 AM	#13 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	I'm not quite sure why that picture is considered art... but... if you hadn't said there was an almost nekkid woman in the picture, I wouldn't have even noticed it, I doubt most other people would either. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

11-23-2004, 11:17 AM	#15 (permalink)
cheebsteralpha Upright	Its truly sick when the beauty of the human form is seen as something filthy. Im no nudist, but I can seperate nudity from sexuality. IE: I dont feel aroused when viewing some of Renoir's plethora of nude paintings.

11-23-2004, 11:23 AM	#16 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	Gross. Girls are icky. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

11-23-2004, 11:35 AM	#18 (permalink)
BenChuy Insane Location: About 70 pixals above this...	The fact that sex, even the attractiveness of the human body is something that these foolish little puritans can't tell their children about or even expose them to is not our loss, right? Well, in the European arena, art and apprication for the human body (allong with understanding that it is natural) is something that is thoroughly exposed and for the most part have less sexually transmitted disease, teen pregnancy and more public patronage of artistic works/goings on. If we let this idea of "degenerate art" existing, the whole society will begin to suffer from it. And what is sad is that only the ones who have grown to appreciate artistic works will notice.

11-23-2004, 12:27 PM	#20 (permalink)
Xell101 Junkie	Beyond the childish reaction of awe at generally suppressed material disrupting the ability of the teacher to get the class through the exhibit, I see no problem with it. Covering the painting is absolutely absurd, it's excessive, unreasonable, and reflective of a few ills of society. On a side note, I blame consumerism, we wouldn't be able to get nearly as much crap moved if most people possessed a strong sense of their humanity.

11-23-2004, 01:13 PM	#22 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	You would think that with the billions of human bodies on this planet that eventually we would refrain from being offended by the sight of them. Last edited by flstf; 11-23-2004 at 05:12 PM..

11-23-2004, 01:29 PM	#23 (permalink)
crafty Tilted Location: Omaha, NE	There's no reason for anyone to be upset. Like the teacher said, any parents are free to bring their children back to see it. She just didn't want to be liable.. people have lost their jobs over stupid shit like that.

11-23-2004, 04:59 PM	#25 (permalink)
Slavakion Mjollnir Incarnate Location: Lost in thought	You know what? Why do we have a problem with children seeing nudity and knowing the "secrets" of sex/sexuality? They have their own parts... and all it does is hype everything up to the point where grade schoolers discuss the latest "info" at lunch. The things we came up with... /slightly rambling post

11-23-2004, 06:49 PM	#27 (permalink)
slimshaydee If you've read this, PM me and say so Location: Sitting on my ass, and you?	Was that all the picture was, half the kids wouldn't have even noticed it, and when they did they would probably go oh look an ass and have a giggle and that would be that.

11-24-2004, 10:58 AM	#32 (permalink)
KinkyKiwi "Without the fuzz" Location: ..too close for comfort..	oh for gods sake..all you can see is a tush...and i grew up around art an di'm not too messed up... this is just silly __________________ Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.

11-24-2004, 03:24 PM	#34 (permalink)
vox_rox Psycho Location: Comfy Little Bungalow	It's the same issue over and over. Banning books from libraries for using obscene words (Mark Twain said "nigger" - The bastard should be arrested and charged!), words like ass and bullshit being bleeped out of movies and television programs - it's all ridiculous. I was watching a movie on TBS about three months ago when one guy points a gun at another ganster type, and says "You're dead mutherfucka" and shoots him in the forehead. Well, they bleep out the "motherfucka" part, but not the shot to the head. You tell me what would be more disturbing. Swearing bad. Sex VERY bad. Shooting people in the head, um, well, whatever. Hmm.... Pierre

11-26-2004, 10:39 PM	#39 (permalink)
Kalnaur Psycho Location: Portland, Oregon	As an art major, this really disappoints me. Every time I think that we as a nation have worked past our uptightness, I am reminded of how far we have not made it. __________________ PC: Can you help me out here HK? HK-47: I'm 98% percent sure this miniature organic meatbag wants you to help find his fellow miniature organic meatbags. PC: And the other 2 percent? HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

11-27-2004, 02:27 PM	#40 (permalink)
sailor beauty in the breakdown Location: Chapel Hill, NC	sigh More PC bullshit from the public school system. I came home for thanksgiving to find that my little brother's middle school is doing equally stupid things--cant have nail clippers at school (might use it as a knife!), carabiners (might use them as brass knuckles!), among other stupid things. A student just got suspended for 10 days because he had some window washing fluid in his backpack that contained ammonia, and school officials suspended him because it could be use to make a bomb. I think Ive lost about all faith in our school system. Dont they have better things to be spending their time and money on? __________________ "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." --Plato