Are unions a good thing?
 

The reason I ask is, the only thing the unions around here are good for is keeping fat lazy bastards employed. I know that there was a time and place for a unionized workforce. But I think that in today's world with OSHA and all the other federal safety stuff, all the union does is make hard to get rid of people that need to go. I have three uncles in the unions here, so I kinda have an inside line on what goes on with them. I also think that most of the cost of union labor is passed on the consumer, whatever the product.

I am not union "bashing". I just want to know what are they good for in this day and age? Other than keeping someone from getting fired, because the boss just doesn't like them.

What are your thoughts?

Of course unions are a good thing.

They offer protection to employees from being exploited, they fight for workers' rights (like equal pay for men and women), they offer assistance programs for their members... the list goes on and on.

Rampant, unchecked union power is not always good, but proposing unions be abolished is just silly.

Mr Mephisto

The Equal Pay Act of 1963 gives me equal pay for equal work, not a union.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Civil Rights Act of 1991 prevents discrimination in the workplace based on race, color, sex, religion, or national origin, Not a union.

The Age Discrimination Act of 1967 protects agaisnt discrimination because of age for people over age 40, not a union.

The ADA of 1990 prevents discrimination of qualified individuals with disabilities provided they can perform the essential functions of the job, Not a union.

There was a time and a place for unions, back in in the day of sweat shops and horrendous working condition, while in some cases those conditions might exist, for the most part it's long gone. The laws on teh books protect workers, not the unions.

Teachers' unions are what's destroying our public school system in the US. Keeping sub-par teachers employed is not the same as protecting them from abuse. Lazy, unqualified slobs are protected by unions. These days, with whistleblower laws, OSHA, and federal laws in place to protect our workers, we don't need unions like we used to. In some cases I've seen, they don't seem to have strayed far from their Mafia roots.

Like all things......it depends.

There is no doubt that unions were critical for much of the recent 100+ years. However there are a number of recent examples of unions working more for the power of those in charge of the union, rather than their members. I am not advocating getting rid of unions, but their power should not be unchecked. Here are few examples of unions putting their own interests ahead of that of their members.

I have a close friend who works as a television reporter. Several years ago he was working in a closed shop state under a contract with his station. His contract ran out and at the time he was working the morning news. He hated it because he is clearly not a morning person and getting up at 2am was not good. He had not yet found another job and he wanted to continue to work until he found something in another market. It is a tough field and there are few openings. He and his employer agreed to work under the conditions of the expired contract until one or the other decided to end things. (That is the condition most of us find ourselves by default.) The station was actively looking for someone who had a pulse before 8 am and Scott was looking for work elsewhere. Both were happy with the arrangement and the union was not harmed because they would just replace my friend with the new hire when they were identified. After several months the union cought wind of this. They wrote a letter to the station without contacting my friend. They claimed that he could no longer work without a contract and he was fired that day. It took him months to find another job on the opposite coast.

Several years ago the UPS workers went on strike as a result of a power grab in the AFL-CIO. I know that there are those who will disagree with that, but the facts seem to support the claim. At the time UPS was employee owned. Understand that. The employees went on strike against themselves! As a result, they permanently lost market share. Less than two years later they made a killing when UPS went public, never knowing how much more their stock would have been worth with their market share intact and no recent history of labor disputes.

I think that as a transition entity from a time where the industrial barons took advantage of unprotected workers withoug mercy, that unions are a good thing or should I say were a good thing. In today's day and age I think that there are often instances where union "protections" are questionable at best. I say this from the perspective of a wife and father in law being in unions.

I think unions in principle are fine, but some of the legal protections they enjoy are not.

I personally think that if unions can require a worker to join in order to work somewhere (and they can), then employers should be able to ban employees from being union members if they want employment.

I also think that a lot of the trouble with unions happens when the government intervenes in strikes in nonessential industries - as with the case in San Francisco with the hotel strike. Who is the mayor to threaten that the city will provide "less than four star service" to the hotel's if they dont' bow to his wishes?

Overall, unions are fine so long as the government affords them no special protections at all and doesn't try to take their side in disputes, as happens all too often.

Depends who you are. If you are a unionized worker, unions are a good thing. If you are excluded from the union, it's a bad thing. If you're an employer, unions are also a bad thing.

Unions had their historical moment. That moment is now long past.

Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of workers around the world that would be exploited without them.

And with reference to the (US) Acts that Maleficent mentions, do you really believe they would have existed without Unions fighting for workers' rights?

As I said, and as I maintain, they are a good thing.

It all comes down to personal opinion really.


Mr Mephisto

I worked on a construction project for a week as a scab worker replacing striking union guys. This project was a large "dig" in a northeast US state. :rolleyes:
At the end of the day, I went back to my car and found someone had placed welded balls of nails under my tires hopping I'd back up over them.

I come from a "right to work" state (Florida) and believe in the right to work system. I'm employed at my own will and can leave at anytime if not under salary contract. Likewise the company has the right to get rid of me if they feel my services are no longer needed without explanation. I see no problem in this.

I worked at a book store in RI for a while. We had a kid in the cafe who was great with customers but couldn't show up on time. ever. It took me 4 months to fire him, including a written explanation for his termination, have several meeting with him and mandatory chances to change his behaviour, and I was prohibited from making a negative reference to his next employer. All ridiculus in my opinion.

Unions are better replaced by well written laws outlining unacceptable behaviour on both the part of the employer and employee.

Further, the idea of compulsiary union membership is offensive.

my ancestors blood and the constitution gave me my rights, not the union

There's the point I forgot to make.

I worked for unionized places and both times joining was mandatory. They served me no purpose whatsoever. You are required to pay dues to these organizations, but I truly didn't see what was done in return, besides getting monthly periodicals in the mail.
The teacher's union in NJ, the NJEA, which I belonged to for 3 years, actually destroyed my job. I was a lay assistant teacher and they lobbied and won legislation that requires all assistant teachers to have some sort of degree or certification in that field-I didn't. First, I was reassigned to 'building aide' and replaced by teachers who were making twice as much or more than I was. Many complained that, after teaching for up to 20 years, they had been relegated to second banana in unfamiliar courses, while I was reduced to walking hallways all day. The teachers I had worked with wanted me back-but, thanks to the union, that wasn't possible.
I agree with Art, their time of any usefulness is long past. Laws are in place to avoid any 'exploitation' and it seems to me that the money taken out of one's pay every week to fund the lifestyles of union bosses would better be used in the hands of the very workers they say they represent, but in fact, exploit for their own personal and political gains

Right.

I guess it was stupid trying to be the lone voice in a thread, on a board in the US, supporting unions.

I'm a "white collar" worker, but I support unions. Bite me.


Mr Mephisto

Now, don't get your knickers in a twist-this is the US. Laws, situations, etc are different. Unfortunately, unions became too big for their own good, starting believing their own hype and are now caving in on themselves. Corruption is being exposed and people are not following blindly as a result.
This is not indicative of the world at large, necessarily, it's just how things are going here.

Speaking of teachers' unions, right now, the teachers at the college I attend, and the rest of the city colleges, have been on strike for two weeks now. They've already said that we will have to make up this time during what should be the break at the end of the semester. And, if it goes on much longer, we'll have to make it up going into next semester. From what I've heard, the administration at the schools has compromised on every issue the union brings up, but the union waits until the next meeting to bring up another issue. And it's getting ridiculous.

I don't have a problem with most unions, but this is really annoying.

from a truck drivers POI (in this case my dads) i would have to say that unions at the docks are asshats.. they only do so much a day given by union rules then the rest the day they do nothing.. thier work load was reached.. the truck driver sits there waiting for the next shift to come or the next day.. burn them

First of all I didn't get my "knickers in a twist" as you so prosaically put it.

Secondly, I thought "this" was an international board, and not the US.

Mr Mephisto

Do they do some positive? Of course.

Do they do some wrongs? A lot, I'd have to say.

My friend was forced to join his union. He couldn't work there unless he joined. They took out $100 of his paycheck every month. They protected many of the lazy workers and made it hard to fire horrible people who were late, lazy, and just didn't preform their job well.

On top of that, his union supports a presidental candidate (Kerry). The common worker didn't have a say in this decision. My friend is for Bush, but some of his pay check was forcibly taken and, in the end, goes to a presidental candidate he doesn't support.

and yet another reason.. in our town.. cps a rubber mold factory that makes the drain trays for trane air conditioners, had a union issue..

they went three months stalling on a voite for union or not.. during this time cars, personal effect, and company properties got damaged or destroyed by the asshats that worked there.. which after the legal invistigation .. it was brought to light that the union reps talked several into doing this which instigated the whole mess.. ended up both sides doing this..

on a side not just across the parking lot is a sherrif substation.. they never saw anything.. the union was voted out with the agreement that in two years they could try again.

my town.. union is bad.

"This" is....I'm referring to the union situation here :hmm:

Unionism is certainly a good thing. Its protecting the rights of the workers. Sadly, in america it looks as though unionism is gonna collapse completely, which is ironic seeing as the federal minimum wage is like $5 dollars something, and conditions for unskilled and low income workers are at a low. Union-busting is an actual business in the US, so i reckon it is on the wane. What has been bad for unions is individuals using it as a ladder to politics and thier private interests. Too much corruption.
The situation in Australia is looking grim. Howard now controls the senate, the first thing on his agenda (which has been previously blocked 41 times) is The Fair Dismissal Bill. Workers can now expect less job security and possibly lower wages.

Fair point.
To help us better understand why you feel the way you do, perhaps you could explain the work situation where you are (Oz right?)
Are unions large there?
Have union leaders been found to be corrupt in major scandles that affected the nation or a region?
Is union membership compulsiary?

Also, for those who are guilty of often being US-centric with our attention, can you explain this in greater detail?

NgDawg: Last time I checked this was an international board, and all topics require the viewpoints of many nations for equal discusion without favoring the interests of on over another.

If the unions were more in the form of a craftsguild, they would be of great benefit to everyone. However, as they are in the US, they act as extortion organizations, I think they need a radical reformation.

But so does the american system of goverment. So I guess it doesn't matter. We're all going to hell in a handbasket anyway.

I guess maybe my meds are off today.

I'm a teacher and a Billy Bragg fan.

I used to be a part of the The Ontario Teachers Union which is the second strongest union in Canada. Yeah I paid out my ass for it, but it did some good for me. As a teacher I have one of the best pension plans too.

I know people get pissed off when we strike for higher wages and stuff. But you know what? I think teaching is important, and if I can get more money to teach, I'll strike for it.

"There is power in a union"

It would seem that most of our US members have more or less the same views on unions that I do. I think arch13 has some good questions for anyone outside the US. Obviously the labor laws could be different from the laws here, making the unions a more favorable entity. I intentionally didn't limit this to US unions for this very reason.

???!

Teacher's unions are almost non-existent in the Deep South, yet our educational system lags WAY behind everybody else's. Can't blame that on the unions. If Southerners must look beyond unions as the cause for our educational bankruptcy, then maybe the rest of the nation should be prepared to do so, also.

And for the record, I taught public school for 12 years in Alabama and Iowa and didn't belong to any unions or teacher's organizations for a single minute of those 12 years. It was not a problem in Alabama, because almost no one belonged to a union there. But it was kind of uncomfortable in Iowa, where the membership situation was reversed.

It's true that there are a few areas, notably some southern states, where teachers' unions do not have the same pernicious anti-educational stranglehold they have on the rest of the nation.

I think unions now are even more important than they have ever been. Businesses like to cut cost, the best way to do that is to look to employees. Whether a business sacks people so they can save some money or cut down on health and safety issues to avoid that expense is all the same. The power of the union is to protect its members and even non members rights and lives.

There membership however is receeding, at least here in the UK, but i guess that mainly to us not having so many big industries where the low paid worker have to be protected (rich people go to court and sue businesses, poor people have to make do). Plus the government brings out laws that should project people anyway. At least you would hope so as the current Labour Government here (Tony Blair and co) were founded from Union roots.

I say power to the unions, but not too much. :thumbsup:

They can be good and bad. Everything in moderation I always say. The real question is, should everyone be alloud to union? Particularly Im thinking of cops. And do they have a right to strike?

Unions are evil!!!!!! I hate my union more than anything. All my union does is protect all the lazy fucks who do nothing except sleep at work. And since I'm not a lazy fucking pile of shit all my union does is steal $45 a month from me. My union drives up an employees wage while decreasing the amount of work we have to do. Now, anyone with more than three braincells can tell that's bad for business. Fuck man, it's no wonder jobs are leaving America. It's fucking useless unions making difficult for business owners to make $$. It's just easier to close shop and reopen in another country... That's how bad unions have made it, and I don't blame owners of companies for doing it. It would be one thing if the union drove up wages and made sure the employee did more work, but it doesn't work like that. Less work for more money is just bad business. It isn't Bush that drives companies out of the US. It's the fucking lazy ass workforce who expect to do nothing for their paychecks that makes it make sense for a company to relocate. It's that fucking simple. And because my useless union supports Kerry.... I'll be voting for Bush baby!

And I don't want to hear some dumb shit like: Well if you hate your job/union so bad get another job.

I make enough money that it makes sense for me to stay where I'm at, but I'm gonna be relocating to the Cleveland are after the first of the year, and I'll get another job then. BTW, there's no way in hell I'll ever work another union job in my life.

My girlfriend, who is a school teacher, hates unions just as much as me. She also agrees that unions are ruining schools, but she loves what she does so she deals with it.

You are not alone. Many important innovations (e.g., the five-day work week) came about because of unions. I will say that unions work better in fields where the productivity differences between workers are small.

I'm in a huge union town, and from what I hear... (I'm white collar) they do a lot of good. All the unions do a lot of charity work. But as for the bad, the UAW that is at Jeep, have made it so when the workers are laid off, they still get 95% of their pay, no matter how long they are off. There are many cases were an employee is caught with drugs at work, he/she is slapped on the wrist, told to attend a drug rehab paid for by Jeep, then brought back to work after rehab.

That is an extreme circumstance, but true. Unions were good in the US back in the day, but with all the legislature, they really aren't needed. Without the unions, this legislature would not have happened.

Unions aren't just an american phenomenon.

There's currently a teacher's union strike in Iceland for the past 1 month.

I personally don't like unions for my own benefits. I don't need someone negotiating my own futures away.

I agree with whoever said "it depends." I don't think the time for unions has passed, certainly not in less industrialized countries where Western corporations are moving in to exploit lax labor laws. And with a more competitive employment situation in many Western countries, and companies trying to cut costs wherever possible, I think unions are vital for protecting the rights of employees Are they prone to abuse? Absolutely. But that's no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater. As with all things, the pendulum has swung to the point where some unions are too powerful for their own good. Competition will squeeze them to the point where they lose some power, and are no longer able to abuse their position. I'm in favor of enlightened reform, not abolition, of unions.

Ying and Yang. Wax and Wain. There is the good and there is the bad. Any organized group large enough to impact policy will have both positive and negative effect. Once the clout of the organization becomes apparent it will be used by those willing to exploit its power. When this becomes apparent, their power is placed in check by other forces. And so it continues.

Unions were essential to the development of our country. They improved peoples quality of life immensly. These same checks are not longer necessary in most industries, but in some they are. It makes for great discussion.


EDIT: I say "our country" meaning "my country," the US. Sorry I wasn't specific.

No, they are not.
I think most people are idiots. Because they have the same job, or job catagory I do, does not change that fact.

I do not need idiots making choices that affect my employment. I'll make or break that on my own, thank you.

Unions cater to the lowest common denominator. They set the minimum acceptable standard, and lower the quality of work to it. The idea is dirty, to me.

When a minimum standard is set, there is no reason to excel. The person who meets the standard, gets paid as much as the one who strives to exceed it. So, why try and exceed it?

I have no interest in a union philosophy.

now other unions .. i dont know they could be ok.. yet time and time again i have read seen and heard that all they do is milk the workers with promises of changes for the better and then tell them to strike.

yet there are good that they do.

My viewpoints pertain to the Canadian/American marketplace only.

I agree largely with what Sixate has said. Unions had their uses, and in some places they still do - but the pendulum has swung from one extreme to another. Unions are allowing ridiculous practices and lazy workforces to thrive at the cost of the company. And for a smaller company this can be death.

As an example. I sell industrial machinery to manufacturing companies - when the equipment is delivered I will go in and train the people how to use the equipment and maybe do some tweaks on the equipment to work flawlessly in the factory - usually it takes me 2 - 3 hours to do this in a normal business (non-union).

However, the times that I have had to go to a union facility I am not allowed to lay a finger on my own equipment, I cannot open a control panel door to push a button inside (I need an electrician to lockout the control panel, a member of a safety committe to observe, and another controls electrician to push the button), If I need to tighten a screw, or align a spray nozzle I need again an electrician to lockout the machine, again the safety comitte rep to observe and a freaking millright to turn a nozzle by 5 degrees that I can do with my bare hands in 3 seconds. Don't get me started on what I'd need to tension a motor drive chain or something (all done with a simple wrench!)

These various people who I need are never available at the same time, they will be summoned by the manager in the cell I am working and it could take them and hour or two to show up - then they have to take their breaks etc.

I've had a 2 to 3 hour job take 2 to 3 days in a union shop do to these stupid inefficiencies.

I think in some situations Unions can be beneficial when implemented properly. But at least in the automotive industry I think they are a massive waste and should either be culled, or massively restructured to work WITH the employer to achieve a win/win situation.

unions could be good for some things there many operators union maybe good need to trained what ur doing new equipment all the time ect... ibew electric maybe good need to know certain codes what line needs to go where.. I have seen many non union electricians that know what they are doing. teamsters truck driving not so sure who needs to be trained to sit and drive all day they don’t even help unload there cargo. Grocery clerks??? Not so sure at all paper or plastic???? Plumbers what a joke i have seen more union plumber stuff have to redone at a cost of 60- 100 $ and hour originally usually 20 - 40 $ to get fixed.. This is my example....i work in the construction field i sub out to a large company that builds a large national or will be national before to long video chain .. We ( my non union company) build a store start to finish in 5 weeks the store opens the 6th week. Our bid is around 85,000 labor.... when we go to city’s northern IL st Louis Kansas City ECT... the union tries to force us out.. The video chain doesn’t want pickets because they are a family organization that cares about there image.. Will hire them for around 300,000 and there fastest store they have done yet in my 4 state neighborhood was 22 weeks. Allot of times they call us for advice in what to do... yet they are making 18-35 dollars an hour for there highly valuable skillz. ( HA) my question is why do they hire them i have no idea... are they useful ?? I have found verry few that are..

Interesting Post, thanks for the material to debate with. There are currently only a few unions blocking safety improvement for companies in canada... but they are indeed doing just that. They are blocking safety efforts by management ... because to do some work more safely, they would have to accept change to some old trade oriented jurisdictional boundaries... and the employees don;t want that.... and the accidents continue to happen.... it's sad ....

no.

.....

Art, you totally missed to point of his post. The point was that educational quality is the worst in the deep south, where there are no teachers unions, while is often the best in the evil unionized North. Why is this so if unions are such a bane to education?

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. To me, this sound like the mafia collecting protection money from workers and bullying the owners.

Unions were good; now are bad. There was a time when unions were necessary (see 20's and 30's news). Now unions are destroying the very company they say they build. How many working-day people do you you see driving around in a 'vette?
It's not about union leaders making a devil's deal for workers - it's about workers wanting an honest living (be honest - what vehicle does your union rep drive up in?). (What vehicle did you use?)

I'm confused. Do you think auto unions are the only unions?

Not everyone abides by those laws like they would have you think.

I support unions. Yes there have been abuses by some union organizations and there have also been abuses by employers. When any one side has too much power sombody down the line is going to pull some stupid crap out of their ass and shove down somebody's throat. I see it as check and balance sort of thing. As a single employee I have very little power when stacked up against a large corporation if they decide to add additional job duties, extra hours and no extra pay. Yes, it can happen. With a union the company has to think twice before arbitrarily making such decisions. Here are a couple of example. I worked as a morning news director at a medium market television station. Often, I repeat OFTEN, this station would ask employees to clock out but continue to work without pay. When they asked me to do this I refused and eventually found a new employer but not everyone has that luxury and I believe a union would have stopped that employers behavior. While working in Chicago for a television production facility management started adding significant responsibilities and hours to our jobs with no increase in pay. We had a couple of meetings with a union organizer. When managment got wind of our union interest suddenly the extra work went away and our pay scale was adjusted to a living wage. The mere threat of unionization made a positive change. Again, I can't speak for all union situations and in some cases they aren't necessary but I believe they still have a place in America and can be utilized in a positve way.

Pro sports player's unions = BAD.

-Mikey

I read half way through all this and then had to say something.

At one time, unions were needed. Employees were exploited in a very bad way during the industrial revolution, which lasted a long time since it just migrated from the north auto factories to the southern textile industries.

However, and there has to be a big however, that was then, this is now.

Unions cause most companies that declare bankruptcy to do just that. Companies are unable to make the changes needed to compete in today's marketplace. Moreover, unions constantly focus on the employee rather than what the employees are there to do...produce a product or service. And then they go on strike for higher wages. Which leads to the price spiral of higher prices and then the need to strike again.

Isn't it interesting that the majority of union employees are in fairly unskilled lines of work. I mean, if you can do something on an assembly line, how does that transfer to another field?? No skills., so what do you deserve for your hard work? Minimum wage...certainly not high wages and tons of benefits that aren't supported by the prices the company can charge the marketplace.

Of course, there are unions for teachers, journalists and the like. But...if the employees were good at what they do rather than good at dealing with union rules, their business would prosper.

Basically, things have changed, there is a global economy and many jobs are going/have gone overseas. Many airlines...Pan Am, Eastern to name a few, don't even exist anymore. You can chalk that up to unions.

It's simple...if you don't like where you work and have a marketable skill, go to another company. You don't need a union to make your own choice. And if you don't have those skills, get them or be quiet.

Your post is rife with misconceptions.

1. If your tasks do not translate to another field of work, that is skilled labor. You may not think the person's skillset is very valuable, but a skill is defined by the fact it must be learned--not whether you think it's a good skill to possess.

I'm going out on a limb and assuming you never worked on an assembly line. Then you list a number of professions that are considered by most rational people to be among the most skilled professions in the US. Even labor intensive jobs require skill; try this experiment: go down to your local construction site and ask if you can lug tools around for 6 hours. Then imagine what that would feel like if you did that every day for the next few months. Whether you like it or not, even jobs like that require muscle training to maintain appropriate production rates. Yes, I'm arguing that even tool caddies at construction sites possess skills. They are skills I value, btw, since I'm very much appreciative of the fact that I haven't had to build any home I've lived in. I don't have to unload ships, nor do I know how to do it very efficiently. I don't drive boats or fly planes, I don't drive trucks across country, I don't know how to cut meat in the most tasty and efficient manner, either. I don't even know the best cuts of meat, but I can always ask my skilled meat cutter at the supermarket for that info before I BBQ. I don't ever plan on picking up trash for my city, or supplying the residents their water. I never had to build a vehicle, nor do I know much about repairing them.

It would be asenine of me to think any of those workers are easily replaceable or that they don't possess knowledge about their jobs I neither have nor want.


2. The airline industries are going bankrupt because of greedy CEO's--not the unions. The unions keep taking paycuts and benefit reductions, and the government keeps giving them handouts. Yet every year for the past few years the administration of major airlines keep getting larger pay checks and bonuses while they are in danger of bankruptcy. In the spirit of capitalism, they really should just collapse and let someone (like the employees, for example) run the damn business themselves more efficiently. Imagine that: lop off the top of the corporation and allow the workers to keep doing what they've been doing for decades with the same amount of payscales they had a few years back. That would free up lucrative amounts of capital for the shareholders.

3. The need for unions was then, but is no longer? That doesn't make much sense to me. Despite the fact that all kinds of rollbacks are currently in the works, such an assertion doesn't even stand up to the common sense dictum: the reason the need for unions isn't apparent is because they exist. One wouldn't know their necessity until they are gone and all the workers' hard won rights are rolled back.

4. If unions no longer serve a purpose, won't they eventually erode without external manipulation? Invisible hand and all that jazz.

5. If employees were good at their work, their businesses would prosper? Being employees, they don't have a business, first of all. Secondly, unionized businesses do prosper. You need to check your data more carefully. In fact, some of these businesses outrank non-unionized businesses on almost every single economic measure Wall Street analyzes.

6. Recommending that people up and leave their companies to go work somewhere else on a whim indicates to me that you haven't been on the job market within the past decade. What exactly would an industrialized worker do now that our nation is on a course of deindustrialization? Go work at burger king? apply at a law office? where are all these jobs just waiting for capable workers?

Smooth:

I'm not going to load this up with stats since we are talking about concepts. I will make a point that we all need to feel a part of something bigger than ourselves and I don't believe that a union fits that criteria.

1. There is a big difference in the skillset of a butcher compared to that of someone that lugs tools. And while I also appreciate and value the person that is willing to lug tools around to build me a house, I don't consider it an extremely valuable skill as anyone with the physical ability could easily learn the job.

2. CEOs of many business are raping their companies. That doesn't change the responsibility of the mindset of the employees. Union employees are typically there to earn their paycheck and don't have a great deal of concern for how well the company does. They see things as only so many slices of the pie and they want their slice.

3. I lead an operation of over 500 people, connected to an even larger operation. We have no union. We treat people right, make sure they are fairly compensated and earn even more for above expectations performance, have the ability to learn and grow if they choose, I could go on. If you want to learn more about how that can work without unions, I suggest you read the Gallup organization book "First, Break All The Rules" and gain an understanding of the Q12 method. You might then read "Now, Discover YOur Strengths" and the "Follow This Path."

4. Take a look around. Most are eroding and have a fraction of the power they once had.

5. You make my point for me. The employee's business is the business they are working for. This reminds me of the many people that say "I'm going to work for myself because I want to be my own boss." How silly a notion, because the vast majority of these people end up starting a business that has customers...the most demanding and unforgiving of all bosses.

6. I'm not "Recommending that people up and leave their companies to go work somewhere else on a whim..." Any major change should be well thought out, especially BEFORE you go to work someplace. And then I refer you back to item #1. If your skillset is specific to one thing, like an assembly line, it won't transfer. As a result, you have two choices: 1. unemployment/another meanial job, 2. learn something new and make sure your investment will pay off with an ability to transfer the skillset someplace else. That butcher you mentioned previously can go to work for any grocery store or meat market out there.

I appreciate the time you invested to read my thoughts and then discuss this topic. You present a viewpoint that is valued and shared by many.

By the way, I have worked in my industry for over 26 years, 23 of those with the same company. Prior to that I was a licensed electrical contractor. I started in that field as a part-time laborer (working a second job because I was unable to earn enough from my primary job) lugging tools around. Due to that experience, I built my own house with my wife. I guess that tool lugging experience did transfer as I lugged my own around for the six months it took to build that house. Before that I worked for a brief time on a line that produced furniture. And while I was learning the electrical trade, I worked on various lines at a factory making IV solutions.

So, I experienced enough to know that I didn't want to rely on something like a union to take care of me. Rather, I learned to take care of myself and feel a part of and contribute to the success of something bigger - the business I am a part of. As a result, I am able to directly impact the the success and sometimes failure of my organization beyond just showing up each day.

By the way, I love your Lippman quote and especially the impact of First Amendment. I have been in the newspaper business for those 26-plus years Imentioned above (no, I'm not in the editorial department).

thingstodo...

if you look at the current rate of housing developers that are being sued because of shoddy workmanship all over the country you'll find that not all skilled labor is equally skilled.

day laborers are not always a replacement for someone who is a highly skilled laborer.

thingstodo,

thank you for an excellent and well-thought out response.

In regards to #3: I'm not of the brand that claims private companies will never treat their employees right without organized labor breathing down their necks.

I know of several companies (yours now included) that value their employees along with their contributions.

I do, however, still think unions have a place in this society and haven't come to the conclusion that they do more harm than good.

So it is your right to support unions and say so just as it was someone else's right to disagree and say so. No need to get testy!

Smooth.... I didn't mean to insinuate that unions do more harm that good, just that they don't do the good they once did. And I'm sure they serve as a deterent in some industries.

Cynthetiq....I think that shoddy workmanship you mentioned has more to do with companies trying to turn a profit by slapping up houses on the cheap. It becomes all apprearance and no substance. You can compare the same behavior with companies like Enron. Profits, spin to the consumer and marketing to Wall Street is their priority, not their product. Kind of like the mindset of those poeple I mentioned earlier that are only interested in their slice of the pies rather than creating a limitless pie.

Plus, someone that has learned a "trade" is different from those production line employees that only get skilled with the one or two things they do. Those carpenters, plumbers, etc. can take that specific skill other places. Hopefully it will be where management actually allows them to use rather than abuse their craft.

You might look into how much money is invested into education in the south, the level of corruption in relation to the investment and also compare the tax rates/base of communities that have better schools. Unions aren't a consistent variable. Demographics and the tax base have much more to do with the quality of education that do teacher unions. And all you have to do is ask a few teachers to confirm that. Accountability trumps entitlement.

sure... but Union buildings, worksites, etc. are usually all union or not. I happen to be lucky in one of my investments where I got the union workers, but then the rest of the site was built buy non union. The ones built by non, is currently in class action litigation as their place is falling apart.

the union labor is a better quality in this instance.

sure I agree with some things, such as a bag boy at the grocery store, I never understood why they had to be union. The old cashiers, sure, but today's electronic monkey that just wipes it over a bar code reader, no.

I strongly agree. I have worked for both Management and Unions they both need someone to keep them in check. Both organizations have flaws, but but the flaws are magnified if they go unchecked.

well here i am again in a this thread that basicilly comes down to 2 kinds of people.

1. the kind that need and want to be told and directed evrey single move to make. do your job only do your job. never do a job that is someone elses job espcially if it will make the whole job go better faster and easier for whoever happens to be in charge of it even if that someone is you.. ie. union motivational speech.


2. the kind of people that need to get the job done the MOST EFICIANT best way it can be done. even if that means ( oh my god ) working a little bit more than is expected of you. i mean really if your willing to take the extra step and make your decision about what needs to be done and you are capaable of doing it and doing it means that you will be doing something other than looking at something that needs to be done thinking i wish someone else was here to take care of me. you must not be a union guy i suppose that would make you a company man or woman.


i cant count the number of times union guys would stand and look at something that obvioulsy needs done and say i cant do that its not in my scope of work. or thats not my job, or thats beneath me. even the most menial tasks are out of reach for the union guy to do..


this workers opinon is most card holding people just want to draw a check. not go out of there way period.


sounds an awfull lot like lazy.


websters deffiniton lazy Resistant to work or exertion; disposed to idleness.