KnifeMissile

It seems that people have no idea what they're saying, anymore.

I had just read, on another board, "LMAO, literally!" Now, I'm pretty sure he isn't, literally, laughing his ass off. In fact, I'm sure he, literally, has no clue what he's saying. I bet he, literally, has no idea what it means to be literal.

I also see people, too many times, using the word "to" when they mean "too". It happens way too often for me to believe it's a simple typo. They honestly don't know the difference, as if they've never read a book. The use of "there" instead of "their" is also quite common and almost as irritating.

I don't want this to be a rehash of the ever popular What are your grammatical pet peeves? thread. I'm honestly concerned about the degradation of the English language. It seems like everywhere I go (on the internet, anyway), no one has any idea what they're saying! Vertigo has nothing to do with the fear of heights, fantastic is not necessarily good, and the idiom "with all due respect" means that you have respect!

Mostly, I just wanted to let off some steam but how can so many people misunderstand a language they have used all their lives? What can we do to increase awareness and help preserve our language? What do you all think?

K-Wise

Isn't there also some kind of rule on the pronunciation of the word "the" depending upon the context it's being used in? Like sometimes it's pronounced "th-ugh" and other times it's supposed to be pronounced "th-ee" depending on the sentence and the words leading to or following it?? I'm not sure but I think I heard about that a while back and that it's not really enforced anymore or something. Could just be false I'm curious though.

Asta!!

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PulpMind

Your post is hilarious because it's filled with gramitical and spelling errors.

Regardless, to answer your initial (and, presumably, rhetorical) question, The same thing is happening to the English language that has been happening to English since before it was English.
Languages evolve through slang and degredation. So long as people use certain rules to keep their meanings clear (I agree with your there/their/they're example), and speak/type in a socially acceptable manner (weather that is your local social circle in the Compton, or over at Oxford), then, WORD UP, sling that slang, brotha.

K-Wise

^ haha Oh and before ya say anything about it KnifeMissle, yes I know it's supposed to be spelled "Hasta" m'kay?!

Asta!!

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It ain't goodbye, it's see ya later! I'll miss you guys! - Asta!!

PulpMind

PS - to clarify my stance... there's a huge difference, imho, in using bad, uneducated grammar (like they're/their, to/too, etc etc), versus using socially acceptable slang. i \/\/177 5p33k 633k 4-3\/12, cuz' I spit it straight with my brothas, and work it tight with yo motha.

word.

bermuDa

that's just the danger of sayings and idioms: they become meaningless when they're overused. as for typos, they were inevitable due to the layout of the keyboard, and people fall into the habit of typing a certain way. people are lazy and tend to type in a set way after they've gotten used to it. For instance, I don't usually use many caps, and i normally capitalize every other "I". it's just a habit I fall into.

the only thing that really bugs me is when people capitalize erratically, it interrupts the shape of words and makes it cumbersome to read.

but it's true, the internet is certainly mutating the english language.

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Squishor

I've noticed the same phenomenon since I started spending way too much time on the internet, and I think there may be a couple of factors at work.

One is the IM, text message, chatroom lingo thing. ROFL, LMAO, LOL, LMFAO. By the way, I never saw so many people doing so much fake laughing in my life. STFU.

The other is that now that so many people are using the written word to communicate openly where we can all see it, we get to see just how degraded and misused the language is. I don't necessarily think that's entirely new, but in the past people were just scribbling illiterately in the privacy of their own homes (if at all). Now it's out in the open for all of us to see and marvel at.

This is one topic that tends to make me irate and sarcastic - I guess it's one of my biggest pet peeves. I don't know what can be done to save the language but there is one potential positive to the whole internet forum phenomenon: perhaps by using the written word to communicate more, those whose language skills fall short will be influenced to do something about it. After all, if I hadn't been such a reader when I was growing up I wouldn't know how to spell. The thing that concerns and irritates me is the number of people who just don't care that they can't spell or write, and when someone says something about it they just cop an attitude. "Ya i kno i cant spel so wut??!! LMAO!!11!1"

wnker85

Exactly, but in a forum I think you should use correct English. The rules should apply, because some of these discussions involve higher thinking, and you should try to get it write. But, in instant messaging I don’t think it should matter.


With that said I can not type or spell to save my life. Only have been typing for a year; I’m on my way.

And for the love of God, let us all try to make sure that 1337 does not replace English.

Herk

I like to think I speak the language well. I really don't have any errors jumping out at me. Except this:
where it would correctly be written, I believe, without parentheses or the commas.

Regarding the language degrading: Your right, it is dynamic and changes somewhat, because of misuse, but is that a good reason to knowingly speak incorrectly. I don't think so.

On the other hand, while we speak in a casual manner, like in this forum, I don't expect to see all posts refereed by scholars. I like to see people communicate well, but until the majority of people speaking a language come to the understanding that it is not much more difficult to speak well than not to speak well, we will continue to see a dynamic language change very rapidly.

To be honest, I happen to think it all boils down to parenting. Those brought up being allowed to write and speak incorrectly, I believe, are far more likely to do so in the future. It is a norm at that point. Very few people, that I am aware of, think it is a big enough deal to do something about it. I, too, am a perfect example of that, often.

Herk

BTW, a perfect example of mindless usage of a saying without thinking about the meaning is, "I could care less." This makes no sense. Very rarely do you hear somebody say, "I couldn't care less," which would actually make some sense, implying that you care the least amount possible.

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OFKU0

Unless of course, "I could care less," is inflected with certain tones, body language (rolling of eyes) or attitude adjustments most commonly associated with sarcasm.

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Suave

While what you say is true Pulp, the internet has taken the degradation of the English language to a whole new level. I see people type E-mails and even write out "2" in place of to, don't know how to spell anything properly because it takes too long to write out or type that silent "e", or the second "l" in a word. It's getting so awful it almost puts me into histerics.

I'd like to take this time to point out my pet peeve: people who think that everything that is odd or amuses them is "ironic". "Well dude, I was all driving to my house, right? But there was ice on the road so ironically, I spun out and hit a street light!"

KnifeMissile

I'm surprised you would harp on this. It's not wrong to put it in parenthesis, even if it would make sense without them. If you wanted to complain about his post, take a look at this!
Whether he'll admit this or not, his use of "weather" here is not a typo!

StickODynomite

To be honest, I dont think the whole-- LOL, ROFL, LMAO, STFU stuff is such a huge deal. It's just an easier way to say something.

Even if someone isn't LITERALLY laughing their ass off, its just an expression. I don't know why everyone is getting so hung up over this. How people talk online doesn't bother me (unless they cap. every other letter In A WoRd LiKe ThIs. That's awful!)
It's how people talk in the real world that really bothers me.

When I see people confusing their/there it bothers me. When I see people confusing you're/your it bothers me. When I see people confusing than/then... I worry. It's scary. English isn't my first language and even I'm not making any of those ridiculous mistakes.

The US needs better teachers. This is just sad. It gets so scary that sometimes I have to laugh it off.

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Grancey

Use a long e (th-ee) before a vowel, and use th-ugh before a consonant.

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yster

Everyone has their own style of writing, and we can't and shouldn't really expect others to change their style to fit our standards. It is an excellent way to find like-minded people, as is. Though there are doubtless many exceptions to the rule, generally leet-speakers are not going to sound too much more intelligent if you break their shift key and rip off the numbers. Differing english styles provide an adaptive way for people to find others, and quickly discard those who are interested in different things.
Just to note: This has nothing to do with the sort of social chameleons that many of us know or even are, this is about people with a chosen style.

Grancey

Spelling errors...
Gramitical is incorrect. It is grammatical.
Degredation is incorrect. It is degradation.

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Quiet, mild-mannered souls might just turn out to be roaring lions of two-fisted cool.

Menoman

Hey I got a better idea, since this thread is nothing more than bitching about each others spelling... lets just all whip out our internet dicks and slap them on the table...


OH OH MINES BIGGEST!?!

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Suave

My E-penis is clearly the largest in this thread, as I have absolutely flawless spelling and grammar. *THUD*

jimbob

I've no problem with the language evolving and, as has been pointed out, it always has evolved. But in these days of global communications it evolves more rapidly than before and often not in a good way. Importing words like 'pyjama' from India extends and improves the language but misusing words like 'myself', 'its' or 'momentarily' (very popular in the UK lately) can confuse the language and defeat its purpose. The pace of change means that bad ideas spread quickly and before you know it half the population has to reinterpret an apostrophe in a plural before they can understand a sentence.

For those who've not heard the bad usages ('its' is universal but I don't know if the others have reached the rest of the planet), here goes

Myself:
Bad: "Bill and myself went over." I hear this sort of thing all the the time from media types on TV and radio, trying to sound contemporary.
Good: She called Bill and me over, so Bill and I went but Bill stopped half way and I carried on by myself.

It's:
Some people seem to think that because you say, for example, "the cat's head" then you could also use "it's head". This is just wrong. 'Its' is a word like 'his' or 'her', so the cat banged "its head". Now it's hurt!

Momentarily:
I was waiting to meet someone and was told they'd be with me soon and that I could sit down momentarily if I wanted! What's wrong with sitting down for a moment until they get here?

K-Wise

Awesome! Now I know it!

My e-dick is small because I have horrible grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc. Mostly grammar and punctuation though. As a result my real life dick is enormous to compensate for my lack of grammatical expertise.

Asta!!

__________________
"I love music and it's my parents fault (closing statement)." - Me..quoting myself...from when I said that...On TFP..thats here...Tilted Forum Project

It ain't goodbye, it's see ya later! I'll miss you guys! - Asta!!

Rlyss

Without wanting to get into any e-penis discussion, I thought I'd just point out that what you're talking about here is a form of hyper-correction. People have realized that there are times when saying 'me' is incorrect, but they over-compensate.

'Bob and I went to the store' is correct.
'*Bob and me went to the store' is incorrect.

'Come to the store with Bob and me' is correct.
'*Come to the store with Bob and I' is incorrect.

The best way to tell whether you're saying it correctly is to take Bob out of the sentence. So 'I went to the store' and 'Come to the store with me' are both correct, but '*Me went to the store' and '*Come to the store with I' are both incorrect.

portereight

One of my pet peeves is the meaningless qualification of the phrases "up to" or "as many as" with "or more"
"The forecast is calling for up to 20 cm of snow or more"

Do you ever wonder if people really listen to themselves?

World's King

I have a degree in English.

Don't fuck with me.

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filtherton

It doesn't really matter to me. As long as the grammar is clear enough to convey an idea effectively the quality of the message isn't that important. Incidentally, while reading this thread i noticed that most of the people complaining about the poor state of the english language also made certain grammatical or spelling errors.

quicksteal

I write how I talk, so sometimes commas aren't in the right place, but if you can't spell words correctly, it shows that you aren't willing to take the time to learn them. You'd think by taking English classes for 10-15 years people would learn how to use the language, but it's apparent that many haven't learned much more than how to speak (and some do that poorly).
So many people nowadays don't use English correctly that it's socially acceptable, so I don't see where the motivation is going to come from for children to want to learn the language. There's a huge difference between the progression of language and the degradation of language, and it seems as though more and more are moving toward the latter.

arcane

there, their, and they're

nobody in my office (except people in the publishing department) can seem to use the right one.

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<Arcane> so if you banged 2000 chicks then at least one had a pen0r?

Suave

Cool trick. I've always done that just off of tacit knowledge of the language.

Ace_O_Spades

That made me laugh as well...

Maybe I'm just tired...

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Feh.

NegativeNine

You would enjoy Bernard Shaw's Pygmalion, if you've not read it...
Will one of you Grammer Nazis the me if thats supposed to be "you've not," "you haven't," or something else?

Suave

I believe both "you've not" and "you haven't" are correct, but the complete grammar Nazi would say you shouldn't... sorry, should not use contractions anyways.

Herk

Okay, so they could be used there, but unless presumably and rhetorical are both midifiers for question they would not seperated by a comma. We know that this is not the case since it would make no sense and because presumably is an adverb of manner which cannot modify a noun. You could argue that since "presumably" can be removed from the sentance without affecting structure it can be separated by commas. However, I don't believe that modifiers are to be considered parenthetical appositives, becuase if they were, they'd be confused with coordinate adjectives.

I guess that's just me being perspicacious begotten by perspicaciousness. Enough being a sesquipedalian, it is time to go back to being less tenacious and diligent about proofreading, to stop being magniloquent, and to start eschewing obfuscation.

Herk

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KnifeMissile

You know what? This may shock some of you but I really didn't mean to jump on every single spelling error (which may simply be typos) or mild abuse of grammar. I'm talking about people using words they don't even understand! I've already brought up some examples, like "vertigo", "fantastic", and (what started this thread in the first place) "literal". Another good example is the term "by definition". Such as "my hand was, by definition, killing me!" What definition of "kill" are they using? I don't know...

To a lesser extent, misusing words like "to" and "too", "there" and "their", "weather" and "whether", and many others, also demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of those words. Should we redefine the language so that we only use one spelling for words that sound alike? Perhaps, since (it seems that) that will help many people to write correctly but, as someone who reads and writes fluent English, that kind of writing would just seem... wrong!

Anyway, I guess my real (and less alarming) point is this: why would you use words you don't understand?

shakran

it happens all the time.

I've seen "for all intensive purposes" so many times it no longer makes me laugh

tspikes51

I definately enjoy all of the discussion that takes place on this board about this topic. In fact, I think I may get another major in English or language studies or something similar because I enjoy the discussions so much. English is going downhill. Search for some of my many posts on this subject if you want to know my thoughts about it. They're too lengthy to put here.

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Fire

I post on the net for fun- not to have to run a spell checker
so as long as I can be understood I will continue to not give a damn
should my grammar and spelling become bad enough to inhibit communication, then I will worry..........

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Squishor

I did get your point, KnifeMissile, and I know what you mean about using words you don't understand. I remember once when I was corrected for using the word "perambulate" to describe driving around in my car...when I was told it specifically meant going on foot, I was so humiliated! The memory still makes me cringe, and that was 15 years ago. I'm willing to make the effort to make sure I embarrass myself like that as seldom as possible. Perhaps some people don't feel the same way, or else they'd be more careful, right?

I don't require perfection in all speech, spelling and grammar from myself or those around me, but I do think it's important to be able to use the language skillfully if you want to be taken seriously.

redstar11

George W. Bush for four years is what happened to the english language.

Echodork

Well, the concept of "Standard English" is just that... a concept, and not an actual form of language. Many English speakers can recognize a grammatical mistake when they see one, but ask someone to recite rules of spelling and/or grammar, and most fall to pieces. Without racking your brain for examples, do you know the grammatical explanation for when a "g" sound is hard (g'uh) or soft (j)? I didn't, until I sat down and thought about it*. There isn't an English speaker alive who follows all of the rules of "proper speech." The true English language is basically just an amalgam of people speaking improperly.

/minored in English

* The "g" sound is soft when followed by a soft e (gentle, geriatric, longevity). In all other cases, the "g" sound is hard (gape, geese, good, monger, amalgam).

The Magic

They don't really teach grammar anymore in schools. Kind of touch on it in highschool...but it doesn't really matter too much unless you're in an advanced english. I heard a story from a teacher that one of her students put a smilely in an essay.

Rlyss

Well, it's more that people use words they think they understand, but their understanding is wrong. I knew someone once who thought 'condone' meant 'condemn', and 'condemn' meant 'condone'. That got us into a lot of trouble, and into a lot of arguments, where she would say things like 'I condone terrorism, that's the bottom line', or 'I don't condemn pornography at all, it promotes violence against women'. You can see how frustrating that would be.

That's a fairly honest mistake, I suppose, but even a small amount of reading would have cleared it up. That's why I think all parents should bend over backwards to teach their kids to read. You can argue about the value of being a math whiz in today's society but reading has so many benefits beyond being entertained, it'd be downright cruel to not encourage your kids to read, read, read.