Soggybagel

As far as an offshoot of the whole Affirmative Action topic, I thought I'd try spawing a new one. What are your feelings towards Legacy admissions at schools. I for one don't like them. I mean even if I was a beneficiary of a legacy admission I'd feel almost cheated...not knowing if it was because I was a good student or because dad went here first. Take our current president...its not secret his academic record wasn't perfect, but because his father and grandfather were both distinguished Alumi from Yale. I think its wrong that someone can actually have an advantage of admissions just because a family member before went.

Cynthetiq

Legacy admissions is a time honored tradition. I don't think that it should be an automatic in, but should hold some weight.

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Redlemon

Well. colleges don't just choose based on your SAT scores and GPA, at least the ones that care about getting a good blend of students. One thing that a 'legacy' student can bring is knowledge and respect of the traditions of the school.

One of my high school compatriots had two parents who both went to the same Ivy school, and had been huge school boosters, doing things like alumni interviews for prospective students. She was rejected on early admission, not even deferred. They don't help the school out anymore.

KellyC

Hey, if it helps you get in, then go for it. You can show them (and yourself) what you're made of with your academic performance while in there. Then you'll know.

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Xenomorph

Hereditary systems seem a bit out of date in the 21st century. Bloodline successions should best be left back with monarchies.

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combatmedicjen

I believe college admissions should be based on the students' grades and achievements, not the color of their skin (affirmitive action), where they're from (preference for in-state applicants), or whether or not mommy/daddy give money to the alumni association (legacy). It's sad that people in the right situation can just skate into top universities while those from nowhere who work their asses off get screwed.

For example, I absolutely hate the way that the University of Michigan handles admissions. You are awarded points based on all three of the above criteria, along with grades, awards/honors, etc, and if your overall score is high enough, you're in. Sometimes just one point can mean the difference between "GO BLUE!" and "Go *insert name of local community college*!"

For example: Two students with completely identical grades, ACT/SAT scores, and extracurricular activities both apply to U of M. Applicant #1 is of an "underrepresented minority," lives in Lansing, and had a parent who graduated from U of M. Applicant #2 is caucasion, lives in Minneapolis, and neither parent attended U of M. Although their acheivements are identical and they are both equally qualified to attend the university, the point system in place by the university will award more points to Applicant #1, quite possibly admitting them over the equally qualified Applicant #2. Preferential treatment, racism, whatever... it ain't right.

I just think that value should be placed on hard work and accomplishments, not on skin color, state of residency, or legacy. Do people not value hard work any more?

Supple Cow

Besides being a time-honored tradition, as Cynthetiq pointed out, legacy is one of the major ways that colleges and universities can stay in business. After all, that's what they are: businesses. It's not very good for business to tick off a major contributor by rejecting their kid. Is it fair? Of course not. I used to be really bitter about this subject, but then you can't really go around in life expecting institutions to be inherently fair. If they were, then there never would have been sweatshops, slaves or whatever grave injustice you happen to prefer.

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Suave

That kind of nonsense has no place in schools. It seems a little too heirarchical in my opinion. School is for learning, no matter at what level, and anything academically related should be equally open to all who are willing to meet the scholastic standards of entry.

RAGEAngel9

I don't know. I mean part of our society is that you earn money that can be passed to your children.
It's part of being in any orginization.
Hell, it's really the same as networking.
I can see where this is easily compared to AA (race based), but I really think this isn't as bad. Since any group can be a legacy, and if you aren't now you can earn it for your children and help them out later.

Lockjaw

Actually it's much worse. You have people as thick as a brick getting into high level schools based on their family name alone. These same people likely have had every resource available to them and didn't take advantage of it because they knew they had their way paved for them since before they were born. At least SOME affirmative action cases gives some people who are intelligent and want to learn a legitimate shot. Many of whom are intelligent and once in the door produce just as well as none affirmative action students, they just didn't have all the opportunites afforded to them that others did.

Inheriting money is fine and dandy it's comendable to have people work hard and store up cash for their kids. But handing out admissions to the best universities in the land because grandpa built that school a gym is flat BS.
And then this kind of stuff doesn't end at the schooling level it persists into the private sector. It's the Good Ole boy system and it's not right. I do find it interesting though that people will rail about how unfair affirmative action is but see nothing wrong with an even more exclusionary and illogical system such as legacy admissions.

Ustwo

Never needed it, never got it, but don't care about them.

They are far to small a percentage to matter, and from what I've seen they would only help if you were close to getting in.

Ivy league schools are tramendously over rated, never met a Havard grad in my field that could poor piss out of a boot so to speak.

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Lockjaw

You left out the funny part...
couldn't poor piss out of a boot if your wrote the instructions on the heel.

sailor

I dont think that legacy should be too big of an issue--it shouldnt keep a better qualified person out of a school. However, given two equally qualified people, give it to the one with legacy.

I dunno, thats just how I see it.

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ratbastid

I know this veers us perilously close to Tilted Politics (which I stay out of even when it's not election season), but I'm not sure you can have this conversation on October 10, 2004 without bringing up the single most priveleged silver-spooner in the country.

<ul><li>George W. Bush ented Yale in 1964 with a combined SAT of 1206, 200 points below the score of the average Yale freshman in 1970.
<li>He graduated Yale with a 2.35 GPA
<li>After being rejected from University of Texas Law School in 1970, he was accepted at Harvard Business School in 1973. 1973 admission statistics are unavailable, but today's incoming Havard student's GPA averages 3.5, and no students were accepted with lower than a 2.6.
</ul>

(My source for this is <a href="http://monkeydyne.com/bushresume/resume.html">here</a>. Interesting reading to say the least--please, if you're one of those Undecided Voters, go read that.)

In school as in so many other things, who your family is and what your connections are is at least as important as your record and what you've demonstrated yourself capable of.

mkultra

Legacies are always wrong. Promotion should be based on merit alone. One of the founding principles of the fraternity I'm in (Delta Upsilon) is that it and all educational institutions should be a meritocracy and that family ties, race or religion, and political affiliation should have no bearing. The ones that are the smartest and hardest working should get in, those are the only factors that should count.

fuzyfuzer

i think that the kind of person you are really should be one of the major deciding factors. i mean you could score perfect on everything and not have a personality. is that better than a guy that scores in the 85th percentile and is a great person, fun to be with and generally all around good guy. i just think a good personality will make you more sucessful and maybe a better doner to the school.

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summerkc

I agree that legacy admissions are not that bad. Usually a son/daughter of a college graduate would have grown up around that school and have respect, admiration, and want to go there.

That being said, schools should limit the points that students get for legacy, shouldn't be anymore weighted than 75 points on the SAT or .2 or .3 GPA.

lurkette

I find it interesting that it seems the majority of people don't see any problem with legacy programs but so many people scream bloody murder over affirmative action. I can see the value of diversity in a student population, but I can't really see what value being a 2nd generation student would add.

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Soggybagel

Ha I was just about to mention that lurkette. After reading the Affirmative Action post it seemed that overwhelmingly people seemed to hate AA...yet it seems that since this is "tradition" than Legacy admission is fine. Tradition like Augusta not letting in woman I guess. I don't see how a son or daughter will have X amount of respect for said University just because Y parent went there. It seems that we are quick to brush this off as just 'life is never fair' addage, yet when AA is thrown in, then it becomes a LIFE ISN'T FAIR AND THIS IS BS.

SilverScooter

coming from a current student of this lovely establishment i can wholeheartedly agree with you. affirmative action, legacy and in-state preference don't deserve a place in the admissions office here or elsewhere, while the in-state preferences may deserve a little bit of weight considering the concept of a state school (in some minds, not mine, i think the pocket change tuition they pay levels that field far too much) nothing else is even relatively logical.

i must concede a bit though. considering the status of U-M as a top 25 school and considering one's personal gratification in being accepted as an out-of-state, white, non-legacy student, the odds being stacked against an applicant by the college are extraordinarily rewarding to overcome. now, don't get me wrong, i am still a bit miffed in regards to the fact that less qualified people will be recognized in the same sense as i will and i will occasionally have to deal with morons who got in with the help of some arbitrary points but its all for the sake of diversity...right?

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aurigus

The "value" of increasing the likelyhood that a legacy will be admitted to a school is that the school will have a better chance of getting donations from an alumni "family" that is from the school. Welcome to capitalism.

I don't see how this is compared to affirmative action though. Affirmative action is based on race, this has no basis on race.

If the anti-legacy people are against that, then why not be upset over the fact that they don't let people with poor grades in? Isn't that discriminating by how "smart" you are?

bonehed1

I for one don't give a rats ass about legacy admissions. If you can get any type of help by getting your foot in the door then by all means do it. If affirmative action comes into place then IMHO it's wrong. If you can find someway to get ahead then do it. Society now a days is all about who you know and what position they hold and they could care less if you are qualified enough to get in by yourself. I have seen where a person who is a complete moron but knows someone high up that is able to get a job/school over someone who is smart as hell but doesnt know anyone. It sux I know but its life.

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Cynthetiq

Even if my family didn't attend Notre Dame in South Bend which several members of my grandfather's generation attended, I would have been given a better chance than most because I went to one of two High Schools that are run by the Brothers of the Holy Cross who are responsible for Notre Dame University.

That's a legacy... would it have been fair if I decided to attend ND? I think so, since I chose that HS when I was like 7 as we drove past it all the time.

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Lockjaw

No it's based on an even more exclusionary and biased basis than race. That's how it is equatable.
And you say welcome to captialism...well many of the schools have affirmative action in place so they can receive benefit from state and national aid programs so them allowing under qualified is now justifiable based upon the terms of "welcome to captialism".

There's a difference in seperating people on qualifications and seperating people on privilege and that's what legacy is privliage nothing more.

Lockjaw

How is that different from legacy? If you are using AA you are just using any type of help you can by getting your foot in the door right? It's the same thing one is based on race the other is based upon what somebody else in your family not you yourself acheived.

And evening the field for minorities is now life and reality in this country but that doesn't make it right. If something is an injustice it's not right that we as progressive thinking people simply sit back and say "well that's the reality of the situation so tough tits."

Lockjaw

So you should be given a nod over somebody else who might be more qualified than you based upon you chosing a school(a high school no less) at age 7 because you drove past it all the time? The only thing I could see that would be logical in that situation is not having a prospective student take an entrance exam if they went to an affiliated school as opposed to the student from an unaffiliated school having to take it. But if you are substantially less qualified than another applicant legacy shouldn't be used as an field leveler.

I was just reading about the tech schools in India and how hard their admissions programs are. They don't give any respect to who you are just what you can do and they produce some of the best engineers in the world because of it.

If Timmy the 5th is barely able to pass his high school Geometry class but Tron from Brooklyn can think circles around him Timmy shouldn't be allowed in over Tron just because everybody in his family went to that school.

Glava

Where'd you come up with the name Tron? Is that a stereotypically "ghetto" name?

Also, you are using the logical fallacy called a "straw man" by refuting an extreme scenario that has never been proposed, and thus requires no refutation.

Anyhow, for public colleges, legacies should not count at all. For private, I'd rather that they didn't but if it is given a small weight, then it's more reasonable.

Lockjaw

No it's an old Hebrew name that means "God's sense of humor"

Actually the scenario is not as extreme as it may seem but yes sue me for exagerating a might. Ok withdrawn Timmy the 5th isn't as qualified as Tron is,to get it down to the non nitpicking brass tacks,why should he be allowed in based upon legacy? Happy?

Cynthetiq

I chose the school at an early age because I already started my own planning for my schooling and my career. It's not common for youngsters to have done in the 70's or even in the 80's.

I didn't just drive past it. I ATTENDED it.

In equal cases of well roundedness and grades, yes, because that's the nature of the NDHS curriculum to prepare you for college. It so over prepared me for college that I was bored my first 2 years of general education. Getting into that HS was also difficult as it's a private school with high standards of entrance exams and interviews for students AND family.

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Lockjaw

No you said you chose THAT high school because you drove past it all the time. I wasn't questioning whether or not you attended merely the reasoning behind why you should be given preferance because you just chose that school because you drove past it. Unless you tell me at age 7 you weighed all the options and alternatives for education and then made an educated choice to go to that school then I don't think that's a plausible reason. Sorry.

My question is to you though what if a person had no choice where they went to school(elementary and secondary) yet were as qualified or more qualified than an alum of that high school why should legacy provide you a chance and deny them the same chance based upon privilage alone? How is that equitable? How does that strengthen the school from an academic stand point?

Cynthetiq

They araen't. It's a PRIVATE school, both the HS and the University.

Sorry, my parents drilled into my head how important education was, so I was thinking about it from the earliest times of gradeschool. I was privileged to not have to attend public school. I didn't have to worry about gang fights etc. Was that equitable? Hardly.

But then again, my parents paid taxes which supported public schools, yet also paid for tuition at the parochial schools I attended. Is that equitable?

The HS curriculum was rigid. Religion was a REQUIREMENT for everyone as was attending mass services and other catholic community efforts. This meant that even Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist people attending the school had to read and study the New Testament, Roman Catholic Church History, etc. It was NOT an option. You did not take those courses you were not enrolled the following year. You failed those classes you did not graduate.

Most students coming from public school would not have that background that makes for a complete difference of student at Notre Dame University.

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