pan6467

Yesterday, a black lady charged with a vehicular manslaughter was convicted and sent to prison for 20 years.

She was drunk and drove the wrong way on a freeway killing a newlywed couple.

Toady, a white man charged with vehicular manslaughter was convicted and sent to prison for 6 years.

He was drunk and drove the wrong way on a freeway killing 2 people.

Both crimes happened in cleveland at roughly the same time. The convictions were 2 days apart (Tuesday and Wednesday).

The woman said in court she felt she hadn't drank that much but did break down and show remorse.

The man broke down, almost passed out and said what he had done he would never be able to forgive himself.

What do you think?

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Ashley

If they had the same judge, racism or sexism.

Different judge? Then no.

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Suave

There could be racism in that judgement, but there are other rather obvious possible factors:
-the lady killed a newlywed couple, which would have greater emotional impact on the judge (now I know they're SUPPOSED to be objective, but that's wishful thinking)
-the judge could be sexist
-they could just be two different judges, one with a harsher standpoint on drunk driving than the other
-the melodrama of the man's remorse may also have helped convince the judge of a lighter sentencing
-this last one is just speculation, but the woman may have had a prior criminal record as well

BigGov

Was it their first offense?

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

pan6467

As far as I know it was first offense for both.

Also, they did have different judges. She had a woman judge who is known to be very tough on all crime.

She did have a good Atty. who did say the judge was being to harsh and that other cases similar got lesser sentences. The judges reply, "take it up in appeals."

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

BigGov

It also depends on their BAL, if they have had a history of other crimes, etc.

I highly doubt the both of them had absolutely clean records.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

pan6467

Here's the Cleveland PD story on the lady:

====

Driver gets maximum penalty
Woman who killed couple gets 20 years
Wednesday, September 29, 2004
James F. McCarty
Plain Dealer Reporter
Defiant until the end, Robbie Moore was sentenced Tuesday to 20 years in prison for getting drunk, driving the wrong way, and killing a newlywed couple on a motorcycle in May.

Moore, 29, of Warrensville Heights, pleaded guilty last month to aggravated vehicular homicide in the deaths of Jeffrey Bliss, 25, and his wife, Ann Marie, 20, of Parma, on Cleveland's Inner Belt May 20.


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The couple had been married nine days.

Moore maintained the deaths were an accident. She insisted she had downed only 2½ alcoholic drinks at a bowling alley that night, and that causing harm to an other person is against her nature.

"That's all I had to drink, your honor," Moore said, addres sing Judge Kathleen Ann Sutula in Cuya hoga County Com mon Pleas Court. "I don't know what happened that night."

She had a blood-alcohol level of 0.2 percent, about twice the legal limit in Ohio.

Sutula didn't believe Moore's story and gave her the maximum punishment that state guidelines allow.

The judge chastised the defendant for a lack of remorse and for living so recklessly with a checkered driving record although Moore had no prior felony convictions.

Sutula defied the 5-foot, 285-pound woman to explain how she became so intoxicated on fewer than three drinks, or why she drove the wrong way for nearly 10 miles on interstates 71 and 90.

"Let no one walk out of here believing this was an accident," Sutula said. "This is the worst form of drunk-driving and vehicular homicide."

The judge said Moore required the maximum sentence "to protect the public."

Moore's attorney, James Hardiman, protested the judge's severity, citing similar cases of aggravated vehicular homicide where the sentences were a fraction of that imposed by Sutula.

"You may take that up on appeal," the judge responded.

A large delegation of family members and friends of the victims appeared in court. Several delivered tributes to the departed and asked the judge to give Moore the maximum.

"Our life has been shattered and will never be what it once was," said Rita Bliss, Jeff's mother. "I feel an ache so deep inside . . . just helplessness."

Moore one day will be able to return to her children and watch her grandchildren grow up, but "We won't," Rita Bliss said.

In a letter to the court, Ann Marie Bliss's mother, Jan Roalofs, said her family's sentiment is more of sorrow than anger, although she asked the judge to impose the maximum sentence.

Moore offered sympathies to the families.

"I wish there was something I could do to reverse what happened, but I can't," she said.

======

link: http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaind...5042137250.xml

====
will see if I can find one on the man probably have to wait until tomorrow.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

His story..... and notice he had been arrested before for DUI.

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Driver gets 6 years for double fatality
Tuesday, September 28, 2004
Jim Nichols
Plain Dealer Reporter
James Skolsky began serving a life sentence of grief and remorse the moment he drunkenly sped the wrong way down a street and killed two people.

A Cuyahoga County judge added a six-year prison term to that punishment Monday and revoked the 32-year-old Cleveland man's driving privileges for life. Skolsky drove his car into a cab around 9 p.m. Nov. 30, causing the deaths of cab driver David Feher and Elena Ovchinnikova, a 28-year-old Russian accountant who had stepped off a plane from Moscow less than an hour before.

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Skolsky doubled over and turned purple from sobbing as he apologized to the victims' families in court.

"They're not here anymore their lives are over, and I did it," Skolsky shouted, shaking violently and heaving. "I'm so sorry. I don't know what I can do. I wish it were me and no one else."

David Feher's brother, Tom, of Chester Township, asked Common Pleas Judge Timothy McGinty to be lenient with his brother's killer.

"Because if, at the end of this day, all we've done is lost another life that could have been productive, then we've done nothing," Tom Feher said.

"I know he will suffer, as we suffer, every day," he added.

While Tom Feher and his mother, Bonnie Gibbs, offered a measure of forgiveness to Skolsky, the state remained hard. Assistant County Prosecutor Carol Skutnik urged McGinty to be harsh.

Skutnik said it is beside the point that Skolsky is remorseful and didn't purposely kill Feher, 36, and Ovchinnikova. He still got behind the wheel of a car with a blood-alcohol content 2½ times higher than the DUI threshold, she said.

"That's what he purposely did that night," she said. "And that's what needs to be punished."

McGinty agreed, telling Skolsky he was "aiming a missile" when he got behind the wheel. As Skolsky's wife and mother wept, the judge sentenced him to back-to-back three-year terms.

Skolsky pleaded guilty July 26 to two counts of aggravated vehicular homicide while driving under the influence.

Skolsky drank heavily at a downtown concert with a friend before turning a Chevrolet Beretta west on Bolivar Road near Gateway and hurtling past five "Wrong way" signs and onto East 9th Street.

There, he hit two cars one of them the taxi in which Feher was driving his fare, Ovchinnikova, to her hotel.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Ovchinnikova died instantly. Feher was comatose for seven months before dying on July 4.

===

Link:http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaind...3832102440.xml

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

I think a lot of it had to do with his attitude and hers.

Personally, I think that the judges used their own discretion but I also think that there should have been some type of consistancy.

Calling it racism is a bit strong in this case.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

BigGov

Also the photos from the crime scene could factor in. Two cars colliding head-on is horrific. A car colliding head-on with a motorcycle is a very bloody mess.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

Fire

my thoughts are that this is all about the attitude of the defendant- the woman, in her quotes, does not show much in the way of remorse, instead "does not know what happened" the guy sobbs that he wishes it was him that died- big difference to a judge, big difference in sentencing....
also, note the difference in the attitiude of the victims families- the guy that got the light sentence had the brother of a victim plead for him.....

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Mood the more as our might lessens

tangledweb

I would have to agree and say that the woman's lack of remorse and failure to "come clean" about her drinking that made the difference.

I don't know what she was drinking, but a 2.0 would take more than a couple of drinks for most people. There may be some 90lb people out there who would be the exception but unless she was drinking grain alcohol, she most likely had more to drink.

The man should have gotten a longer sentence if it was his 2nd DUI but it sounds like the cases played out entirely differently with the man's victims asking for leaniency on him.

Diamond

There really should be more consistency between judges, but they are people with opinions of a very limited nature. Some may be religous, some may be harder or softer on crime. Doesn't make it right, unless there are other circumstances.

onetime2

There aren't enough details to render a judgement. Were there mitigating factors in the white male's case? Perhaps a freeway entrance that is confusing where others have gone the wrong way before? Weather at the time? Time of day? What about representation? Was the black lady's lawyer incompetent? What are the terms of the sentence? Is the man doing a mandatory minimum while the woman is eligible for parole earlier? As others have asked, what were their criminal histories?

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

guthmund

Racism? I doubt it.

I understand there are a number of mitigating factors in these two cases, but do they justify the disparity of the sentences. 14 years? He had a prior violation (for drunk driving no doubt) and she wasn't remorseful enough?

I know that different judges with different lawyers on different days might have resulted in different outcomes, but the disparity of the two sentences, for what seems on the surface to be the same offense, should raise some eyebrows, no?

I have no doubt that this lady's sentence will probably be reduced after appeal, but think of the time, money and court resources that wouldn't have been wasted if the judicial system had shown a little consistency.

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Glory's Sun

No it isn't racism... it's simply the tried and true fact that 2 people can have the same crime, same judge same attorney and there will always be a different outcome for each person who goes through the system. The lady didn't show much remorse and that is a HUGE factor when a judge is considering the sentencing options. She kinda hung herself with that one. Also there could have been arrangements made by the court for early parole and things of that sort.

StickODynomite

I think they should BOTH get 20 yrs. And no, I dont think its racism.

Ya know, I'm sure Judges get tired of hearing that a drunk driver killed two innocent people. And If the sentences were all 20 yrs, I think less people would drink and drive.

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"The human mind is like a parachute, it works best when open."

soccerchamp76

Way too many variables to call racism here.

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Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.

pocon1

Death penalty for both.

hokieian

I think the fact that the man was extremely remorseful and the woman defiant had a lot to do with the decisions made by the respective judges.

I don't think race played a factor at all, but that the attitudes of the defendents played the biggest role in their fates.

iamnormal

Have you read this?
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/silveira89.html
Its a game. The best players win.

william

Either way, they KILLED somebody. Why does that HAVE to be a racist thing? You don't give enough facts to say one way or the other. Why can't we reach the point where people say "I'm sorry, I was too distracted by my cell phone (or whatever) to concentrate on my driving", so you're dead. "My bad". Shit don't matter until it matters. So far, driver distractions don't matter. Don't say it's racist.

krwlz

Notice how they mentioned he pleaded GUILTY. THey never mentioned in her case, but I'm going to bet she pleaded not guilty.

Isn't plea barganing a wonderful thing?

cjayemail

i think it sounds like racism, things like this happen all the time. hopefully this will bring to light more cases involving racist rulings and people will soon realize theres just one race, the human race

__________________
never underestimate the predictability of stupidity

fastom

Racism? ... maybe the judge making fun of obese short people?

You can't compare these two sentences unless they were both driving the same dual steering wheel driver training car and tried together. The remorse thing and the victim impact statements means a bunch.

SecretMethod70

If she pleaded not guilty and he pleaded guilty, it makes a world of difference.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Journeyman

She's a liar. And a terrible one at that. Asking "Is this racism" is giving the judges involved far too little credit when the circumstances are known.

seep

Heh, as soon as I read the topic title I knew my answer would be no.

alansmithee

If she also pleaded guilty, I would say it is. Otherwise, that could be a legitimate (if extreme) difference between a finding of guilty and a guilty plea.

Ace_O_Spades

I think that unless we were there and witnessed both cases, and how the defendants were perceived by the judge, we won't get a full picture... There has to be more to this.

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Feh.

bonehed1

I am pretty sure it was a different judge and other factors must have been involved in this case....I highly doubt it was racism even though people complain all the time about racism this and racism that.

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Stuff is Good

Lockjaw

IMO it's borderline to many variables to say for sure but it does seem a little TOO coincidental that a black female gets the max sentence and a white male gets just 6 years...but this does underline a major issue in our justice system. Far too much leeway on the punishments for the exact same crime.
Sorry but because the family is feeling sorry for you or the judge doesn't feel you have remoarse should factor exactly nill on what your sentence is. We really need standardized sentencing.

One thing I'd like to know how does this judge's record break down? Does she typically give minority defendants harsher sentances? Does the other job go easy on everybody? etc...

tspikes51

There isn't enough evidence for me to say yes or no. I need to know if the judge was the same, and what the pleas were like for the culprit.

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"I'm telling you, we need to get rid of a few people or a million."
-Maddox

klo

If there was a jury... then probably it wouldn't be considered racism, because you get a bigger impact of killing a newly wed couple instead of 2 random people. But it is the US so I don't know (I'm from Canada).

Lebell

Two different judges, two different defendant's attitudes.

So while the difference is extreme, I can understand it without calling racism.

As a matter of fact, the lady's "I really don't give a shit" attitude pissed me off as well.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Cynthetiq

sorry. no cigar.

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kutulu

Yes, she did plead guilty:

The remore thing is bullshit. People can put on a sad face inside, especially under extreme circumstances.

Pragma

Agents of the criminal justice system are given a power known as "discretion" - it means that they can choose exactly what punishment to mete out based on what they feel is necessary.

The simple fact that they had two different judges should be more than enough to rule out any possibility of racism in this case - at least in terms of "white people get better treatment." Now, the judge who sentenced her to a longer period of time may have something against her, but that's concerning the one judge.

However, you don't know what the judge's personal history is - perhaps he had a relative or friend hit by a drunk driver, and he wants to punish them and show them that it's a serious offense - especially when they kill people. Perhaps he didn't believe that the woman was sincere in her apology, or wasn't apologetic enough for the deaths.

Another factor to consider is that in the man's case, the deceased's relatives pleaded for the judge to be lenient - which is something the judge normally takes into careful consideration when deciding punishments.

Dwayne

It may or not be racism. Depends on outside cercumstances to the accident itself. If the women had prior convictions then it probably isnt. If both outside circumstances are equal then it would be racism.

Lockjaw

According to the info given the lady had a "spotty" history but the other guy flat out had a DUI conviction in the past. LOGICALLY he should have gotten the max sentence remorse or not.