does putin scare anyone else - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Fire · 09-15-2004, 09:51 PM

I put this here as it is more of a current event thing than a politics thing imho- So a few days ago NPR had major coverage of some of the changes that vladimir putin is making in Russia- apparently he is, among other things, making a bunch of regional posts by appointment, by him, rather than elected, and changing a lot of the system, away from democracy- Did anyone else hear this, cause I cannot find much coverage on it- I know the U.S. state dept. released a statement saying they were "deeply concerned"
I personally have to echo that- to the point of being concerned that russia may evolve into a dictatorship soon- I am opening the floor to you guys cause I am wondering if i am the only one who sees this going bad quickly, and because there doesnt seem to be any coverage on it.......at least by the us media....

ARTelevision · 09-15-2004, 11:44 PM

No.
He is doing what is necessary for the safetry and security of his citizens.

Zeld2.0 · 09-15-2004, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

No.
He is doing what is necessary for the safetry and security of his citizens.

He may but I always watch my back when an ex-KGB man is running the show...

OpieCunningham · 09-15-2004, 11:48 PM

In order to fight the people that threaten democracy - we must eliminate democracy.

Yup - scares the hell out of me.

chickentribs · 09-16-2004, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OpieCunningham

In order to fight the people that threaten democracy - we must eliminate democracy.

Yup - scares the hell out of me.

Where did I hear that earlier...? Oh yeah - I was watching a little Fox News as a goof. Only O'Reily means it! I think we do have to give Vlad a little "don't hate the player/hate the game" wiggle room - but pretty soon it's going to start looking like the Oval Office in Moscow. Sorry - it's late and I'm grumpy.

Pacifier · 09-16-2004, 01:34 AM

Do swidanija Glasnost
Russia will be a dictatorship again

Mephisto2 · 09-16-2004, 01:54 AM

He's a headcase.

He's closed down the free press in Russia.
He effectively dictates who shall be Prime Minister.
He tacitly supports the personality cult that has grown up around his name.
He has crushed all political opposition to his rule.
He is using the "War on Terrorism" for his own gain.

He's better than the Communists, but not much.

Mr Mephisto

tropple · 09-16-2004, 03:18 AM

Putin rocks.

All of you who think that a major government change can take place overnight aren't being realistic. Things will settle down in 15-20 years. It isn't instantaneous.

If you look at the countries that have had a complete change of government, you will see that the time to stablize is directly related to the period the previous goverment was in place.

The people who should be scared are _any_ muslim extremist groups who are known to the FSB. They will soon have a visit from the best in the business:<br>

<br>

OpieCunningham · 09-16-2004, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tropple

The people who should be scared are _any_ muslim extremist groups who are known to the FSB. They will soon have a visit from the best in the business

Also, the people that should be scared are the people that live in the same _province_ as a terrorist. Or even better - the people that live in the same 6000 sq miles as anyone that might in the future _become_ a terrorist!

Hurrah for torture and kidnappings and murder!

Quote:

“Over the past one and a half years it’s become the biggest plague,” says Orlov of the kidnappings. Before, Chechen civilians used to be subjected to a different kind of horror, known as zachistki, or “mop-up operations.” As a way of combating guerillas, the military blocked off entire villages and then searched every house, checked everyone for ID, randomly detained people and questioned them. The questioning was more often than not combined with beatings and torture.

Then Russia’s president Vladimir Putin finally responded to mounting international pressure to improve the human rights situation in Chechnya and pointed out that the military must not swoop down on the entire population, but, rather, go after specific targets. In theory, that makes sense. But in Chechnya, targeted work has turned into targeted kidnappings. “People come in armored vehicles without license plates and take people away. Like in Stalin’s times,” Orlov says.

Memorial estimates that approximately 3,000 people had vanished in Chechnya during the four years from 1999 to 2003. Given Chechnya’s estimated population of 700,000, that works out to approximately 43 disappearances per every 10,000 people. During the height of Stalinist terror, people were plucked from their beds at night and taken away, never to be seen again; the figures for those years are, 44 disappearances per every 10,000 people. Back in those days, slander or hearsay information from a malevolent neighbor or co-worker was often enough to doom someone.

Which is exactly what’s happening in Chechnya — people are beginning to inform on each other as a way of personal revenge or sometimes for “commercial” reasons — for instance, if a member of a well-off family is taken away, ransom can be demanded. Over the past years, says Orlov, he’s seeing a hereto unknown feeling paralyze Chechen villagers: fear. “It used to be that fear was considered beneath Chechens, that they must be courageous and open.” And now, “Chechens are afraid of Chechens. Neighbors are afraid of neighbors.”

http://www.mosnews.com/feature/2004/09/01/terror.shtml

MikeyChalupa · 09-16-2004, 04:27 AM

Eh... just think of him as Dobby the elf from "Harry Potter" and he's not that bad.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/browa...5076263.htm?1c
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...ening+Standard

Seriously, he's trying to restore Russia to some semblance of it's former glory. After the Soviet Union fell, Russia was a joke with a bumbling drunk as it's leader. Putin is definitely not Yelstin. He's going about his country's war on terror a different way than ours (whether Chechnya should be granted independence or not is a different debate, but the Chechens are currently employing tactics that are indubitably terrorist), and if anything, maybe he should be an example of how things really are better here than anywhere else.

-Mikey

saru · 09-16-2004, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tropple

Putin rocks.

All of you who think that a major government change can take place overnight aren't being realistic. Things will settle down in 15-20 years. It isn't instantaneous.

If you look at the countries that have had a complete change of government, you will see that the time to stablize is directly related to the period the previous goverment was in place.

I'm not sure about that theory. The former iron curtain countries seem to have managed major gov't change pretty well... almost instantaneously. Some are even EU member states.

MrsRight41401 · 09-16-2004, 10:56 AM

Putin looks like a Bond villan to me. He terrifies me but I can accept that his situation is a difficult one to govern under.

Rachel

Mantus · 09-16-2004, 11:46 AM

I don’t know enough about Putin and his ways to judge him. What I do know is that Russia is NOT the west. Its people have a vastly different mentality then other populations due to their long and painful history of oppression. Our Western methods of government would not work in Russia at its present state.

brianna · 09-16-2004, 10:16 PM

i'm pretty sure i heard this same NPR segment and one of the commentators summed up putin really well -- he said something to the effect that putin is a capitalist but not a social democrat -- he is heavily in favor of restricted liberties (not surprising for a KGB man). whether this makes him dangerous for russia is debatable, you can look at him as an evil hater of democracy or you can see him as the transition leader, he could, conceivable be either.

Spartak · 09-17-2004, 01:38 AM

How is Putin a capitalist and not a social democrat if he wants to re-nationalise the heavy industries which were frankly stolen by the oligarchs ?

Personally I think his stance on Chechnya is pig-headed, but overall under him Russia is doing better than it was 10 years ago.

Most people in Russia have little faith in democracy anyway, as they perceive western democracy as a commodity which is often bought and sold by those with money.

nanofever · 09-17-2004, 02:25 AM

Honestly, I have a lot of respect for Putin. He is a man who knows how to manipulate the populace to get what ever he desires. He used a national tragedy as an opportunity for a massive personal power grab. I think that old Machi would have a lot of respect for Putin too. That being said, if he was assinated tomorrow on the steps of the Duma by Duma members, my only thoughts would amount to "that is what you get when you try to grab too much power in an open fashion".

brianna · 09-17-2004, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartak

How is Putin a capitalist and not a social democrat if he wants to re-nationalise the heavy industries which were frankly stolen by the oligarchs ?

Personally I think his stance on Chechnya is pig-headed, but overall under him Russia is doing better than it was 10 years ago.

Most people in Russia have little faith in democracy anyway, as they perceive western democracy as a commodity which is often bought and sold by those with money.

note that i am not against putin entirely -- he has a really hard job and i do not know enough about russian politics to make a judgement on if he is doing a good job or not.

when i talk of putin not being a fan of social democracy i am referring to his attempts to undermine the political process by extending his stay in office as well as his current tendency to advocate limiting of civil liberties.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...?oneclick=true

roachboy · 09-17-2004, 08:43 AM

putin is not good. not good at all. he is obviously using the bush model in exploiting fears about security conceens, but is going much much further in the centralization of power. as far as the dynamic authoritarianism/"terrorist" as pretext is concerned, so far he is about the worst scenario.

nanofever · 09-17-2004, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

putin is not good. not good at all. he is obviously using the bush model in exploiting fears about security conceens, but is going much much further in the centralization of power. as far as the dynamic authoritarianism/"terrorist" as pretext is concerned, so far he is about the worst scenario.

Dude, you are giving Bush WAYYYY too much credit. People have been using the "give me all the power and I will protect you" line before America was settled - the first time. Bush and Putin are just some of the new member to the club who's members exploits tragedies and security concerns to grab power.

roachboy · 09-17-2004, 10:39 AM

nanofever: you're right about that---i retract the analogy....
but the general argument about putin i woudl stand by.

tropple · 09-17-2004, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saru

I'm not sure about that theory. The former iron curtain countries seem to have managed major gov't change pretty well... almost instantaneously. Some are even EU member states.

Yes, that is true. Mostly. Notably Poland seems to be doing darned well. But some of them still seem to be experiencing certain problems realted to ethinic cleansing....

Strange Famous · 09-17-2004, 01:21 PM

Putin is an old school party man. He will probably be the man to lead Russia back to Leninism in my opinion.

nanofever · 09-17-2004, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Putin is an old school party man. He will probably be the man to lead Russia back to Leninism in my opinion.

I'm kinda hoping, maybe that Putin goes for the gusto and reverts Russia to full-on 1940's style Stalinism. I mean with the huge purges and evil and espionage and purges and talk of "capitalist pigs".

The reasoning below was explained on another forum (SA) by a person who is a metric fuckton funnier than I am.

"But a part of me, a tiny, little part, sure would get excited to get our BEST enemies EVER back, the Other Superpower, the Evil Empire, the one the only, CCCP! With the best propaganda, stylish uniforms, repression, you loved to hate them, and now they're back! Like Nazis, but less evil, but evil enough! With giant, lumbering technology! Threats against our freedoms! Spies! Goddammit, Batman just wasn't Batman without The Joker! Oh sure, Superman could fight some of his lesser villians, but there was only one Lex Luthor, baby! Never Forget."

Strange Famous · 09-17-2004, 02:05 PM

Stalin defeated Nazi Germany

william · 09-17-2004, 04:20 PM

Putin doesn't scare me as much as Bush and Cheney. Putin is reacting to actual events in his country. Chechen rebels want to act as terrorists, Putin wants to go after them. Iraqis (and Sadam) had no tie to 9/11 - Bush sends the troops. Main reasons (so far) - it was on his agenda to go after Sadam, and to build the Haliburton coffers. Anyone who is willing to put lives before profit scares me. I don't follow his "agenda", and if, as Cheney says, my vote against him causes more terrorist attacks, I'd like to know wtf Bush and Cheney did to prevent 9/11. From what I've learned, they spent months ignoring the problem.
If Putin wants to go after real terrorists against his country, I say "More power to him!".

tropple · 09-18-2004, 08:54 AM

A good terrorist is a dead terroist. I don't give a damn how they pray.

powerclown · 09-18-2004, 11:52 AM

The more I read about Russia helping build all these nuclear reactors in Middle Eastern countries, the more I worry.
I don't trust Putin any farther than I could throw him.

Frowning Budah · 09-18-2004, 12:55 PM

Wow! big surprise. It worked for Bush it will work for others. Expect to see the same power grab again and again.

pan6467 · 09-18-2004, 01:44 PM

Actually looking at it from a totally Cold War perspective, nothing would be better for Neocons than to have the Iron Curtain alive and well again. That truly would inspire patriotism and fear again.

The USSR came down too fast and economically hurt us. We didn't have a chance to get off the military based economics. We still aren't hence the "war in Iraq".

Terrorists aren't as scary as another country aiming nukes at yours.

China doesn't want to play the game (they have chosen to try economic warfare). So that leaves little ol' Russia to rise up again and become a power.

Let's face it in all honesty the US faced it's greatest days because we were in competition with another country.

Not condoning Russia's return, just stating what I see.

pan6467 · 09-18-2004, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Stalin defeated Nazi Germany

SF, um did you forget D-Day? Generals Bradley and Patton? The Russians were the first in Berlin, BUT Stalin did not defeat the Nazis.... the US, UK AND USSR together as a TEAM defeated Nazi Germany. Not any single country.

In all honesty had Hitler listened to what Bismark had preached 50 years earlier Hitler could have won.

Bismark:

1) Let sleeping bears sleep (never attack Russia)

2) Never challenge Britain on the high seas

3) Never fight a 2 front war.

Bismark should have added never trust an alliance with Italy in there also.

Baldrick · 09-18-2004, 03:58 PM

I don't envy the job Putin has before and ahead of him. I'm not worried one tiny little bit about Putin, because he has more than a few years of pure hell to worry about domestic affairs. I think he's done an admirable job thus far - whether I have agreed with what he's done or not.

tarvuz · 09-19-2004, 10:47 PM

He scares me less than the current folks running out country.

Mephisto2 · 09-20-2004, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Stalin defeated Nazi Germany

And an often overlooked fact is that he engineered the death of more people than the Holocaust.

:/

Mr Mephisto

whocarz · 09-20-2004, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

SF, um did you forget D-Day? Generals Bradley and Patton? The Russians were the first in Berlin, BUT Stalin did not defeat the Nazis.... the US, UK AND USSR together as a TEAM defeated Nazi Germany. Not any single country.

In all honesty had Hitler listened to what Bismark had preached 50 years earlier Hitler could have won.

Bismark:

1) Let sleeping bears sleep (never attack Russia)

2) Never challenge Britain on the high seas

3) Never fight a 2 front war.

Bismark should have added never trust an alliance with Italy in there also.

In the end, the Russians would have beaten the Germans anyway. It would have come at a greater cost, true, but it was inevitable. One only has to look at tank production of the two sides to see this. Even though the Soviets lost 3 to 4 tanks for every German tank, they had the numbers to win.

Pacifier · 09-20-2004, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

SF, um did you forget D-Day? Generals Bradley and Patton? The Russians were the first in Berlin, BUT Stalin did not defeat the Nazis.... the US, UK AND USSR together as a TEAM defeated Nazi Germany. Not any single country.

hmm, and most americans tell me that they defeated nazi-germany...

Seriously, Nazi-Germany was already millitary defeated when the Allied forces landed, the War war lost '42-'43.
Of cource the allied support of russia was very importand as were the bombings of the german industry.

Nefir · 09-20-2004, 08:11 AM

I find it extremely curious that everyone has forgotten the Nazi-Soviet pact... You know, the one where Stalin and Hitler declared a cease-fire, and carved up Poland?

Quote:

Then a treaty was signed which stunned the world - the Nazi-Soviet Pact signed in August 1939. That both countries were talking to one another surprised Europe considering the hatred between Hitler and Stalin. Neither Hitler or Stalin was prepared to sign the document themselves. Instead the pact was signed by the foreign ministers of Germany and Russia - Ribbentrop and Molotov. The USSR and Germany agreed not to go to war with the other for ten years. There was also a secret clause - the Soviet Union would do nothing if Germany attacked Poland; in fact, both agreed to carve up Poland between themselves.

Why did the Soviet Union sign such a treaty with a country that had all but sworn to wipe Russia off the face of the earth ? Russia simply did not have the military force to cope with a German attack and Stalin knew it. The pact brought him time. Germany, for her part, could concentrate all her resources on the attack on Poland knowing that Russia would not respond in an aggressive manner.

On September 1st 1939, Germany attacked Poland.

Source: http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/1939.htm

Any thoughts?

PS: Putin scares me very, very much. His party promotes a very unhealthy kind of nationalism, which I believe will lead to serious problems down the road. It is already mortally dangerous for anyone with dark skin or Chechen-like features to walk the streets. It will only get worse.

I'm travelling to Russia in 3 days, so I'll have a chance to ask around what the consensus really is.

feelgood · 09-20-2004, 10:57 AM

In my humble opinion, wouldn't Russia be better off in a dictatorship? Comparing it's current state to the former soviet union, it seems that it's pretty bad...

Then again, I don't know shit

matteo101 · 09-20-2004, 01:26 PM

Not as much as Bush does..

09-15-2004, 09:51 PM	#1 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	does putin scare anyone else I put this here as it is more of a current event thing than a politics thing imho- So a few days ago NPR had major coverage of some of the changes that vladimir putin is making in Russia- apparently he is, among other things, making a bunch of regional posts by appointment, by him, rather than elected, and changing a lot of the system, away from democracy- Did anyone else hear this, cause I cannot find much coverage on it- I know the U.S. state dept. released a statement saying they were "deeply concerned" I personally have to echo that- to the point of being concerned that russia may evolve into a dictatorship soon- I am opening the floor to you guys cause I am wondering if i am the only one who sees this going bad quickly, and because there doesnt seem to be any coverage on it.......at least by the us media.... __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

09-15-2004, 11:44 PM	#2 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	No. He is doing what is necessary for the safetry and security of his citizens. __________________ create evolution

09-16-2004, 01:34 AM	#6 (permalink)
Pacifier undead Location: Duisburg, Germany	Do swidanija Glasnost Russia will be a dictatorship again __________________ "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death — Albert Einstein

09-16-2004, 03:18 AM	#8 (permalink)
tropple Junkie	Putin rocks. All of you who think that a major government change can take place overnight aren't being realistic. Things will settle down in 15-20 years. It isn't instantaneous. If you look at the countries that have had a complete change of government, you will see that the time to stablize is directly related to the period the previous goverment was in place. The people who should be scared are _any_ muslim extremist groups who are known to the FSB. They will soon have a visit from the best in the business:<br> <br> __________________ +++++++++++Boom!

09-16-2004, 10:56 AM	#12 (permalink)
MrsRight41401 Tilted Location: Georgia	Putin looks like a Bond villan to me. He terrifies me but I can accept that his situation is a difficult one to govern under. Rachel __________________ Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. Dr. Seuss

09-15-2004, 11:48 PM	#4 (permalink)
OpieCunningham Loser	In order to fight the people that threaten democracy - we must eliminate democracy. Yup - scares the hell out of me.

09-16-2004, 01:54 AM	#7 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	He's a headcase. He's closed down the free press in Russia. He effectively dictates who shall be Prime Minister. He tacitly supports the personality cult that has grown up around his name. He has crushed all political opposition to his rule. He is using the "War on Terrorism" for his own gain. He's better than the Communists, but not much. Mr Mephisto

09-16-2004, 04:27 AM	#10 (permalink)
MikeyChalupa Squid Location: USS George Washington	Eh... just think of him as Dobby the elf from "Harry Potter" and he's not that bad. http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/browa...5076263.htm?1c http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...ening+Standard Seriously, he's trying to restore Russia to some semblance of it's former glory. After the Soviet Union fell, Russia was a joke with a bumbling drunk as it's leader. Putin is definitely not Yelstin. He's going about his country's war on terror a different way than ours (whether Chechnya should be granted independence or not is a different debate, but the Chechens are currently employing tactics that are indubitably terrorist), and if anything, maybe he should be an example of how things really are better here than anywhere else. -Mikey

09-16-2004, 11:46 AM	#13 (permalink)
Mantus lascivious	I don’t know enough about Putin and his ways to judge him. What I do know is that Russia is NOT the west. Its people have a vastly different mentality then other populations due to their long and painful history of oppression. Our Western methods of government would not work in Russia at its present state.

09-16-2004, 10:16 PM	#14 (permalink)
brianna Addict Location: nyc	i'm pretty sure i heard this same NPR segment and one of the commentators summed up putin really well -- he said something to the effect that putin is a capitalist but not a social democrat -- he is heavily in favor of restricted liberties (not surprising for a KGB man). whether this makes him dangerous for russia is debatable, you can look at him as an evil hater of democracy or you can see him as the transition leader, he could, conceivable be either.

09-17-2004, 01:38 AM	#15 (permalink)
Spartak Bang bang Location: New Zealand	How is Putin a capitalist and not a social democrat if he wants to re-nationalise the heavy industries which were frankly stolen by the oligarchs ? Personally I think his stance on Chechnya is pig-headed, but overall under him Russia is doing better than it was 10 years ago. Most people in Russia have little faith in democracy anyway, as they perceive western democracy as a commodity which is often bought and sold by those with money. __________________ I can read your mind... looking at you... I can read your mind...

09-17-2004, 02:25 AM	#16 (permalink)
nanofever Huzzah for Welcome Week, Much beer shall I imbibe. Location: UCSB	Honestly, I have a lot of respect for Putin. He is a man who knows how to manipulate the populace to get what ever he desires. He used a national tragedy as an opportunity for a massive personal power grab. I think that old Machi would have a lot of respect for Putin too. That being said, if he was assinated tomorrow on the steps of the Duma by Duma members, my only thoughts would amount to "that is what you get when you try to grab too much power in an open fashion". __________________ I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect. Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum: "Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt." Last edited by nanofever; 09-17-2004 at 10:24 AM..

09-17-2004, 08:43 AM	#18 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	putin is not good. not good at all. he is obviously using the bush model in exploiting fears about security conceens, but is going much much further in the centralization of power. as far as the dynamic authoritarianism/"terrorist" as pretext is concerned, so far he is about the worst scenario. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-17-2004, 10:39 AM	#20 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	nanofever: you're right about that---i retract the analogy.... but the general argument about putin i woudl stand by. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-17-2004, 01:21 PM	#22 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Putin is an old school party man. He will probably be the man to lead Russia back to Leninism in my opinion. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

09-17-2004, 02:05 PM	#24 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Stalin defeated Nazi Germany __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

09-17-2004, 04:20 PM	#25 (permalink)
william Psycho	Putin doesn't scare me as much as Bush and Cheney. Putin is reacting to actual events in his country. Chechen rebels want to act as terrorists, Putin wants to go after them. Iraqis (and Sadam) had no tie to 9/11 - Bush sends the troops. Main reasons (so far) - it was on his agenda to go after Sadam, and to build the Haliburton coffers. Anyone who is willing to put lives before profit scares me. I don't follow his "agenda", and if, as Cheney says, my vote against him causes more terrorist attacks, I'd like to know wtf Bush and Cheney did to prevent 9/11. From what I've learned, they spent months ignoring the problem. If Putin wants to go after real terrorists against his country, I say "More power to him!".

09-18-2004, 08:54 AM	#26 (permalink)
tropple Junkie	A good terrorist is a dead terroist. I don't give a damn how they pray. __________________ +++++++++++Boom!

09-18-2004, 11:52 AM	#27 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	The more I read about Russia helping build all these nuclear reactors in Middle Eastern countries, the more I worry. I don't trust Putin any farther than I could throw him.

09-18-2004, 12:55 PM	#28 (permalink)
Frowning Budah Slave of Fear	Wow! big surprise. It worked for Bush it will work for others. Expect to see the same power grab again and again.

09-18-2004, 01:44 PM	#29 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Actually looking at it from a totally Cold War perspective, nothing would be better for Neocons than to have the Iron Curtain alive and well again. That truly would inspire patriotism and fear again. The USSR came down too fast and economically hurt us. We didn't have a chance to get off the military based economics. We still aren't hence the "war in Iraq". Terrorists aren't as scary as another country aiming nukes at yours. China doesn't want to play the game (they have chosen to try economic warfare). So that leaves little ol' Russia to rise up again and become a power. Let's face it in all honesty the US faced it's greatest days because we were in competition with another country. Not condoning Russia's return, just stating what I see. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

09-18-2004, 03:58 PM	#31 (permalink)
Baldrick We are everywhere... Location: Barrie, Ontario	I don't envy the job Putin has before and ahead of him. I'm not worried one tiny little bit about Putin, because he has more than a few years of pure hell to worry about domestic affairs. I think he's done an admirable job thus far - whether I have agreed with what he's done or not. __________________ You can be young only once, but you can be immature for the rest of your life...

09-19-2004, 10:47 PM	#32 (permalink)
tarvuz Tilted Location: Seattle	He scares me less than the current folks running out country. __________________ funny quip

09-20-2004, 10:57 AM	#37 (permalink)
feelgood Free Mars! Location: I dunno, there's white people around me saying "eh" all the time	In my humble opinion, wouldn't Russia be better off in a dictatorship? Comparing it's current state to the former soviet union, it seems that it's pretty bad... Then again, I don't know shit __________________ Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

09-20-2004, 01:26 PM	#38 (permalink)
matteo101 In transition Location: north, no south abit, over to the right, getting warmer...there!	Not as much as Bush does..