tecoyah

Well...one of the reasons, Hypocracy. I can understand a corporation protecting its assets, but even most corporations avoid blatant deciet when dodging the bullet. This just makes me sick....the Church could have made a stand against its failings and become stronger, instead it is continuously sinking lower and lower into the muck.




Posted on Thu, Sep. 02, 2004

Diocese accused of creating 'straw corporation'

By GILLIAN FLACCUS

Associated Press

LOS ANGELES - A lawyer for alleged victims of sexual abuse by priests alleged Wednesday that the Roman Catholic Diocese of San Diego used questionable financial tactics to secure a nearly $30 million bond to build three high schools.

A motion filed in Los Angeles County Superior Court alleges that the diocese created a ''straw corporation'' last year and gifted it with property worth between $30 million and $325 million. The property was used as collateral for a federal tax-exempt bond issued to the new corporation.

The motion alleges that the corporation was created to avoid disclosing sexual abuse lawsuits that would have disqualified the diocese from the bond.

It asks Judge Haley Fromholz to reverse the transfers and freeze the diocese's remaining assets, including property, bank accounts and investment portfolios. A hearing has not been scheduled on the motion.

Fromholz is the judge overseeing all Southern California clergy abuse cases.

Diocese officials said bond underwriters required them to form the new corporation to manage money dedicated to school construction. Chancellor Rodrigo Valdivia has said the diocese would be reimbursed for the properties' assessed value after the corporation had repaid the full amount of the 30-year bond.

''We don't try to do illegal things,'' he said when questions about the issue first arose last month.

Andrea Leavitt, the San Diego attorney who filed the motion, said there are about 145 claims of sexual abuse against the diocese and she was concerned that the transfer of assets threatened her clients' ability to collect on any future settlements.

''They were transferring away substantial amounts of property which could be used to settle the judgment for these victims who've been terribly, terribly hurt,'' said Leavitt.

, who represents about 10 plaintiffs. ''It becomes very important -- especially if they may not have insurance coverage to indemnify them -- that they preserve these properties.''

Calls to diocesan attorney Dan White and H.L. Hal Gardner, the diocesan finance officer whose signature appears on many of the bond application documents, did not return calls for comment Wednesday.

Catholic Secondary Education-Diocese of San Diego, Inc., was incorporated on April 9, 2003. The corporation shares the diocese's mailing address and processing agent, according to filings with the California secretary of state.

The corporation listed the diocese as an affiliate and guarantor during the application process for the bond, which was approved last fall.

In May 2003, the diocese transferred Carmel Valley property assessed at nearly $24 million into the new corporation, according to the San Diego County assessor's office. However, the motion contends that the assessments are out of date and the first property currently would be worth $213 million to $320 million.

On March 19, 2004, the diocese again transferred property assessed at nearly $4 million into the new corporation, the records show.

Mary Neale, an attorney for the California Statewide Community Development Authority, which issued the state bond, did not return repeated phone calls.

The diocese also hopes to raise $150 million in school construction donations under the Secondary Education Initiative. The money also will be placed in the corporation, said Steve Marietti, initiative director. About $75 million has been raised so far, he said.

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/mo...ws/9561927.htm

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*Nikki*

I don't think the actions of one Church should reflect upon ones whole belief system.

tecoyah

Would that it was limited to one Church....and not systemic. Alas, this does not seem to be the case.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

adam

Check out Ken's Guide to the Bible sometime...

I was raised as a heathen, so its all noise to me. My wife (who gave me the aforementioned book) almost became a nun in her youth, so she has more issues with the church...

Nefir

Is a centralized religious authority really necessary these days? Can people not follow the teachings of the [insert religious text] in their own, personal way, without having a potentially-corrupt middleman between them and [insert deity]?

I wonder how many schools will actually be built with the donated funds. It sounds like quite alot of money has been getting collected.

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ARTelevision

I'd like to see Churches pay taxes.
I'd like that a lot.
I figure they are here by our good graces and not the other way around. In other words - they owe us.

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irateplatypus

say what? expound on that one please.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

ratbastid

I stopped going to church when I read St. Thomas Aquinas in college. I put that book down and thought to myself, "My beliefs are based on that!?"

From that day I've considered myself a Recovering Episcopalian.

brianna

The Catholic church is an incredibly wealthy institution and while a lot of that money is used to ostensibly do good through the world (feed the poor, help fund medical care for those who do not have it, etc) a lot of it is used to purchase ornate and somewhat unnecessary pretty things for the church. I remember standing in st pauls cathedral and thinking, "damn there are a lot of people starving and sleeping on the street through out the world and the catholic church has all these solid gold popes." It was a bit depressing.

In addition i think that the church has, to a certain extent, exploited laws in an effort for financial gain (or at least to avoid financial misfortune). The most obvious example is that in US law churches are not forced to liquidate assets in order to pay bills. Churches that owe millions of dollars in settlements to cases where priests sexually abused children will not pay off these debts because they lack liquid capital -- never mind that the boston diosy alone owns an ISLAND. The law was instituted to avoid parishioners suddenly having no place to worship and i think this is blatant misuse of the law and frankly incredibly insulting to those who suffered under this church sanctioned and covered up abuse.

All of this would be unsurprising and hardly even worth discussing if the church were a corporation -- but I think as a society we should expect more from an institution that preaches humbleness and claims to hold the ear of god.

ARTelevision

Our government, the Constitution, and its laws offer them their place here. That's what I mean, irateplatypus.

They have pretty darn free reign here. If I was making the laws, they'd pay for the privilege of enriching themselves and indoctrinating our citizens. I mean, wtf...

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Fly

i've never been,and don't plan on goin'.......i don't need people tellin me how it is,was,or should be.


i wanna figure all the little stuff out myself.

far more enlightening i think.

and it costs me nothing...........

__________________
BASTARD

SterlingStudios

irateplatypus

enriching themselves?

99.999999999999999999999 percent of the money they have is given freely by their members. why should they pay the government for the gifts given to them?

indoctrinating our citizens?

people choose to go to church, people choose to give to the church, people choose to scorn the church.

i'm sorry, i just don't see where you're going with this.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

ARTelevision

Not going anywhere. I think churches should pay taxes. That's it.

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create evolution

*Nikki*

They might be wealthy but they are certainly not the only denomination who is wealthy or who uses their funds to "decorate". I think that is a little bit of a generalization. There are many many religions who mismanage money. Some make the headlines and others don't.

brianna

you'll get no argument from me. I used the example of the catholic church because that is the church that is talked about in the original post. The catholic church is one of the richest religions but they certainly arn't the only one's spending vast sums of money of what basically amounts to idolatry. clearly the morman church with their huge ornate temples falls into this category. a case could probably be made that all religions who claim to be founded on a doctrine that idolized the meek as innately more virtuous then the rich (i know this is true for christianity, i suspect it's a fairly common claim in almost all religions) should not horde funds or purchase unnecessary fancy stained glass windows or any other item that serves no utilitarian purpose in helping to spread the word of the religion.

Holo

Agree 1000%. Psychotherapists have to pay taxes, and churches are just a primitive community based form of counseling centers. And before you say they're not for profit, observe the beautiful and quite expensive buildings they build as offices (the church). They're in the business being a metaphysical middleman and behavior modification service, and they should pay taxes for the oppotunity to stay in business. It's the first instance of corporate welfare. And scamming and scheming for profit is not a new thing to the church. Indulgences anyone?

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I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

wnker85

Well if you think that churches are really trying to make money, what about the red cross and others like them. Their leaders of those org's get hundreds of thousands of dollars to run them. Pastors don't make lots of money, just enough to live, most churches house their preists. As for buildings doesn't the red cross have a huge headquaters that cost millions to build so they could sit in offices and keep most of the money to themselves. And that corp. doesn't pay taxes

Holo

I really can't say anything about red cross as I know nothing about the administration of thsoe orgs, but I can tell you almost every preacher, pastor, , father, or whatever I've ever seen has an expensive minivan/SUV and most likely a nice house. Men of the cloth are NOT hurting unless they have a tiny congregation in a smaller area. But suburban preachers of any version of Xianity are businessmen in the field of metaphysica/paranormal mediation and basic unqualified therapy services, and are paid more than the bare minimum.

__________________
I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

Frowning Budah

There many are forms of religion that are not out for the money. Those are what I consider the true religions.
I don't know if Churches should be taxed, but I do believe in separation of Church and State and that means if Government can't interfere with religion then religion shouldn't be messing with Government.

Journeyman

So is it the central authoritative figures of Islam that are commiting terrorist acts or is it people who follow their own, personal beliefs about the way of Allah?

There seem to be a lot of shitheads in the Catholic Church, but I still see the organization itself as one that... you know, can encourage people to be against abortion but shun those who blow up abortion clinics. That sort of thing.

MSD

Couldn't agree more. "Congress shall make no law establishing a national religion ..." Well, tax-exempt status sounds to me like a way for the government to decide what is and isn't a religion. This sounds like it's dangerously close to violating that bit of the constitution.

I'd also like to add that I find the concept of religious schools unnerving. I see how brainwashed the average student is after 13 years of education here, I'd hate to think what would happen if Religion/mass/mandatory prayer were added to the cirriculum. I think Art may have been the one from who I heard the phrase: "A mind is a terrible thing to indoctrinate."

Journeyman

MrSelfDestruct: You think that levying taxes on a religious institution is more in line with the first amendment than granting tax-exempt status to those institutions?

Nefir

The people who execute terrorist acts are definitely following their personal beliefs, but those beliefs are shaped by their environment - family, peers, and of course the Mullahs. Do the Mullahs actually shun terrorist acts?

In the end, Islamic martyrdom and the bombing of abortion clinics are both cases of extreme interpretations of the religion. I can see where a centralized authority is needed to curb the dangerous, violent interpretations and encourage the positive, helpful interpretations. This is also the reason corrupt religious leaders can cause much more serious problems than just corporate greed, described here.

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Lebell

Since human beings are involved in making a "church", you will find all the sins and foibles that they are party to in the institution.

But to leave any church because of it strikes me as "throwing the baby out with the bath water."

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SecretMethod70

*Nikki*, I couldn't agree more with the things you've said in this thread.

Absolutely.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Cynthetiq

i wasn't learning anything anymore from it. it was time to move on...

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The Phenomenon

And how will that work?

Almost all of a church's money comes from donations, should charities also start paying taxes, on donations? Let's take this a step further: Should you pay taxes on Birthday gifts you receive?

tecoyah

While I agree to a certain extent....there comes a time when the sheer number of incidents create a case for re-evaluation of ethics. In my case(and I speak only as an individual) I found the direction the church was heading to be in conflict with my own understanding of moral, and ethical right.
That is not to say there isn't an enormous amount of good inherent in the deeds of said church, simply not enough to offset the negative. It became embarassing to me to be affiliated with this hypocracy, and thus my choice to go in a different direction. I have enough respect for the institution to accept it as worthwhile to society, just not enough to make it a part of my personal growth anymore.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

ARTelevision

Start by taxing their property. They shove much wealth into that. They are different from charities and it would take specific legislation to target their excess wealth and holdings. My birthday gifts are in no way related to this discussion.

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Lebell

We are in complete agreement.

When I could no longer contenance the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church, I went to the Episcopal Church.

There are still problems, but I feel like those who disagree at least have a voice whereas I did not before.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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radioguy

You don't have to go to church to believe or be a religous person. Those that discontinued their church treks, may have chosen to worship in their own way. If you are upset about the Catholic Church or any other denomination because of the actions of their "leaders", then just worship in your own way at your own leisure. I don't think the Bible says that you have to attend a service every week. If you believe, you believe. Show it in your own way.

As for the church paying taxes, I have to agree with irateplatypus. Most everything is donated, so why do they have to pay taxes on other people's money that has already been taxed?

Rodney

Ministers themselves have one of the best income tax breaks on the books, one that's often manipulated by the people who need it least.

By federal law, the portion of a minister's pay designated as "housing allowance" is exempt from federal tax. When a minister comes to a new church, he or she negotiates the total amount of compensation and then the _minister_ decides how much of that compensation is going to be salary and how much untaxable housing allowance. I've seen ministers take 80 percent of their salary as housing allowance, tax-free. How do they do it? Usually they have a working spouse who makes good money.

But this is where it gets really sweet. The minister uses tax-free money to buy a new house, and filing jointly, also gets to deduct mortgage interest. But most of that deduction is applied to the income from the spouse, because the minister is making so little "income." So you get to make your payments with pre-tax money, _and_ still get hefty deductions to apply against the spouse's salary. Nice deal if you can get it. Fair? Definitely not.

Diamond

I grew up going to church schools, bi-weekly services, memorizing and reciting (and being punished for not doing) verses, hymns and the like. I'm not whining, it gave me a good moral base for life, but the more I looked at myself and my belief system, I see its all about money.

My parents are still very active in the Church (not Catholic fyi) and give a lot of money. I'm not active, but donate when I'm there. Who gets all the calls, invites and visits by the pastors? They do. Ever hear the story of the "Lost Sheep" I thought the Shephard went looking for the lost sheep. I figure they are tight in the flock and I'm wandering, but no calls to me... Guess I should give more, huh?

filtherton

Nobody can claim with certainty that organized religion is all about money. Do any of you know what some ministers get paid? Probably on par with public school teachers, which is to say, enough to be somewhat comfortable, but not too comfortable. I don't know if churches should be tax exempt. I'm pretty certain that taking away that status might make many rural areas churchless. As for tax loopholes, i think most pastors aren't greedy, and if they are they seem to be missing out a little on the word of christ. I'm much more worried about wealthy individuals and corporations that avoid paying taxes than i am of churches.

Bill O'Rights

Exact dollar amounts? No...I don't have those figures. But I can tell you, with all certainty, that the minister of the last church that I was affiliated with, wore Itallian leather shoes, and drove a Lexus. Seems pretty comfortable to me.

I'm with Art. I'm all for taxing the property of religious institutions. That way, the money that is given for "charity", is more likely to go that direction. As opposed to ostentatious architecture.

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MSD

I'm not at all fond of organized religion, so my view is biased. I'm also not very fond of taxes, but if I pay them when I don't make enough to live on, a church that takes in millions of dollars of donations per year should have to pay something. In my experience, donations at church are considered about as optional as the "suggested donation" at museums.

Tax exemption is based on political clout and strong-arming, not legitimacy of a religion. Just look at the Scientologists or Mormons.

When asked what I consider the difference between a religion and a cult, I simply respond, "tax-exempt status."

analog

Have they been found guilty in a court of law? If not, jump off the anti-religion soapboxes and learn a little about what "innocent until proven guilty" means.

Thanks.

Thanks to you as well. Well put.

Oh, and for how much ministers make, it's all in their religion. Mormons bank like motherfuckers because they make (yes, MAKE) their people pay a percentage of their income to the church. The Catholic Church survives on donations and managing their money/property wisely, and their priests don't make shit. The higher up, the more important they are, and may get more comfortable accomodations, but are also in charge of a hell of a lot more. They personally get paid VERY little, if any at all. I'd like someone to clarify that, if they could (read: lebell or SM70 ), but I believe I am correct in that.

Actually, the wording explicitly says "national religion", mean no ONE, SINGLE official religion for the country. I mean, think of the framers- they came from a country in which there was ONE national religion, the Church of England, and all else was considered heathen. I believe this was their intention.

SecretMethod70

From the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos063.htm

Like many things, this varies greatly from denomination to denomination, and then from church to church. The only form of pressure there ever was for my family, or anyone for that matter, to donate to my church is that if a child was attending the school associated with the church (such as I was) then tuition was lower. Other than that it all amounted to the fact the priest reminded people every now and then that the church needs money to run the programs it does and so forth and to kep the building up to code. If someone doing their job and asking for donations - the church's only source of income - makes someone feel pressured into giving, it's not the priest's fault the person has a guilty conscience.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

filtherton

The pastor at the last church i was associated with drove a neon and lived sparely. Woohoo, anecdotal evidence is worthless.