billege

I don't know if this particular trick has been tried before, but I'm going to resurrect two of my old threads, and splice bits of them into this one.
There are some things I want to make absolutely clear before you get started in on this one.

• The two threads I've tied to this are BIG. Reading them may take an bit of time, maybe an hour. I've re-read both of them. You may want to also, this all ties together. You don't have for this thread to make sense, but the background is interesting.
• Racial discussions are often tense. I INSIST that each and every person remember where you are. One person's view may seem abhorrent to you. If it is, you need to cool off before you post. We're trying to learn something from each other. Especially in threads like this, we have to be patient, and explain ourselves well.
• Rather than debate someone point-by-point, please try and gather the whole of what someone was trying to say. You're welcome to rebut them, and ask questions, of course. However, point-by-point deconstructions are boring, staid, and usually miss the overall idea of a post by focusing to much on inane details. Try and restrain the impulse.
• This isn't a short, cheesy, or lighthearted post. It may require lots of reading, deep thinking, and work to contribute.
  Halx often talks about raising the bar of our collective discourse.
  I hope to add to that effort with this one. I'm not making a short post; I'm actually expecting you to read the whole other two threads to see what's gone into this discussion; and I'm not sorry if it's too long for most people to take time on.

First off the links to the old posts:
"Hip Hop Holds Blacks Back"
"What is holding Black America back, if not Hip Hop?"
The threads were originally started August 6th and 12th 2003. I know I've learned a bit since then.

Some of my words from those threads (more or less in the order I posted them):


(Thanks for staying with me to this far!)

My beautiful wife and I were having a discussion about kids at her work that was very thought provoking. Specifically, on the subject of Rap and the impact it has on black youth. Melissa, my wife, manages one cottage of a children's home in Columbus, OH. They care for late early-teen to late-teenage children. Usually, 10 to 18 years old. Each cottage is a small multi-room home with its own staff of caregivers, and up to 13 kids. Normally, they have 4-10 at one time. These kids are predominantly young black, (all boys in her cottage, though they have girls cottages too) boys.

These little guys come from more or less the same book of stories. They are kids that have broken laws, though usually not in a major way, have broken homes, and have broken hearts. (A totally separate post to make is the sickening truth that America has no "village" to care for the millions of kids from poor families, broken families, and these kids are just LOST. I hate it, it's sick to have a society that lets this happen.) These guys need someone to care for them, and teach them what is permissible, what is right and wrong, what is just, and what they can make of themselves.

A major roadblock in their development is the overwhelming social pressure of rap on their young minds.

These kids do not have the sense that you and I do to appreciate a struggle, or harsh truth, told in a rap. I appreciate rap for the art form it is; some of its lessons are simply breathtaking. But, I am a mature adult, for the most part. I can listen to rap with a grain of salt. I can dismiss the fluff and appreciate the truth.

Kids can not do that. If you have ever dealt with kids, you should know how literal they are. You tell a child that their pet went "to sleep" and they'll be scared shitless to take a nap. Young teenagers are still like this, but they are self-aware enough to THINK they are mature. In fact, many adults do these tweens and teens the utter disfavor of treating them just like adults. They need a bit more guidance yet.

Melissa and I are fairly typical rap listeners, from slightly different backgrounds. I came from middle class white suburbia, she came from a mixed race set of parents, in middle class suburbia. Her perspective would naturally be different than mine. Similarly, we both listened to Tu Pac, Will Smith, the Beastie Boyz, Eminem, Too Short (me!) etc. All the rap that was around when this music burst onto the scene. We mixed our rap, and still do, with other types of music. Our parents questioned our choices in songs, and made us think about what we were listening to, and what the messages in it were. Our parents doing this was certainly not all fun, and there were some arguments for sure.

These boys are a completely different example. All they listen to is rap. Rap all day long, every chance they get. The only radio stations they put up with are the rap ones. One boy had the misfortune to admit he liked country. He was teased to the point of tears by his young black peers. “Sellout, honkey, shitkicker, hick, redneck,” the kid heard every insult you can aim specifially at a black person who’s stepped over the line, drawn by his peers, defining what is permissable for a “real” black.

These boys don't have the mental development yet to take from rap what is useful, and discard what is not.
They listen all day to the "money-money bling-bling bitches-bitches" message in popular rap. Even the rap "love" songs are about taking off a woman’s clothes and using her body. These songs are fun(?), etc. for adults, but for kids? Kids take a totally different thing from rap; and, yes I mean the popular rap on the radio.

These boys are totally and obviously influenced by rap. They all refer to each other, constantly, as "bitch" and "nigga." The staff has all but given up at teaching them to not swear, and address each other with respect.
Little 12 year-olds, and they get corrected for pointing out "hoes" when they are in public.

Ask them what they're going to do with their lives. They tell you about getting chromed out everything, the total rap picture. Sure, I understand it's normal for kids to dream of big nice toys/things. Normal for any race of kids, sure. There is a difference though. Ask enough of them about their plans for their adult lives, and you come to realize they all have the same dreams, and they are all confined into the dream they see portrayed on a rap video.

These kids don't listen to anything else, they don't think of any other possibilities, and they will reject the very idea of listening to any other form of music, or lifestyle.

Rap is utterly confusing to me in it's dominance in black culture, especially black youth. I know there are black people out there that listen to more modes of music than rap. I know that the whole of Black America is not tuned into rap on an exclusive basis. What I can't figure out is why black artists don't do anything about the image that they project. It's a giant, tired, overplayed, contest to see who can smack the most asses, drive the biggest truck, drink and smoke the most, and completely ignore consequences.

It's an extremely negative influence, and it's worshiped by these kids. Why does it have such power, and who is thinking about the effect it has on a generation of kids?

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

neekap

I'll admit, I'm too lazy to read the original posts, but I did read this one. Why don't rappers care about the kids? Easy. Capitalism. They come from broken homes, but by God, when they get that $15-20 one way or another, they want the kids to rush to the record store and get their CD. There are a lot of musicians and actors that are like that; they want the money.

A little off the subject, but to reinforce my point, I was stuck watching "extra" on TV this morning, and saw that some actor from a daytime soap opera is filing for bankruptcy because he can't afford his $200,000 airplane or the $4,600 he still owes his DENTIST.

Anyway, the way I see it, the rappers don't want to cut off a portion of their profit no matter how big or small it is. The only industry I've seen the complete opposite in is the tobacco industry, and that's because they have to.

The other thing that will stop all of this nonsense is parents need to have the right to smack their kids around and give them a little discipline. Hell, if you're a parent you have to be careful about even giving your kid a swat on the ass when he's acting up in the store. We're giving kids far too much freedom than they really deserve. I could have grown up to be a lot different if I didn't see dad's belt come flying at me a couple times. And I'm not screaming child abuse. If anything, I see those few times of pain as bettering myself later in life.

Rap music and even a lot of the top 40 songs contributes a lot to the downfall of kids today. They're having sex at a younger and younger age, and it's getting so bad now where being 23 years old I can paruse the mall on the weekend and have to stop and question myself if the hot girl that just walked by me is not only legal, but is she old enough to drive yet. Songs in general these days pass off sex like it's a normal thing and you should be doing it every chance you get with anyone you can. Need I remind you of Abercrombie's "soft porn" catalogs?

I think as long as the next generation or two doesn't get too far off course we'll realize what we're doing to screw ourselves up and hopefully correct the issues. But with all the freedom everyone thinks they have in today's age, it's not going to be a problem that will be able to be fixed overnight, or even in a year.

I was recently listening to a comedy bit by Richard Pryor and he was saying how he was walking down the street and saw a little kid with his shoe untied and he told the little kid, "Hey you might want to tie your shoe so you don't trip and fall." Kid's response? "Fuck you." Not sure when that bit was recorded, but it's more sad than funny now because it's true.

About a year or so ago on the news I heard two sets of parents getting all up in arms because the school gave their kids (unrelated) in school suspension because the young girl was caught GIVING THE YOUNG BOY HEAD ON THE SCHOOL BUS.

So I think it's safe to say that rap music is not the only thing contributing to the delinquency of kids these days, but yes, it does play a decent sized part.

docbungle

Well, I don't agree with your view of "Hip-Hop," thus I don't agree with a lot of what you blame Hip-Hop for. Especially holding blacks back. People like to blame heavy metal for delinquency, but I don't buy that either.

I don't believe "blacks" are held back by any type of music any more than "whites" are. The people you speak of are mostly inner city kids with nothing going in their favor, including parents with a well-paying job. Poverty is what causes the type of behavior you describe, not music.

__________________
Bad Luck City

neekap

doc, I think billege is connecting rap/hip-hop music to the mannerisms of the youth, or lack thereof. Just because someone is poor isn't going to cause them to go around throwing around bitch, hoe, nigga, etc.

I say the problem still needs fixed with a little good old fashioned discipline, whether they're black, white, or whatever. Teach them respect.

By the way, who are the best, most popular rappers out right now that carry a positive message?

docbungle

Common
Non-Fiction
KRS-1
Digital Underground
Wyclef
Outkast
Goodie Mob

I could go on forever but I won't.

__________________
Bad Luck City

Jazzbone

It's a rebellion... As long as it scares, appalls, shocks, and draws ire from the other side of the fence, it will thrive...
Does it hold back the black race? No.
Does it hold back those (fans of all races) who make Hip Hop a way of life? Absolutely.
Living and breathing Hip Hop empowers the young with their peers.

It's the perfect product for the educated white corperate suits who now sell it with all the media power they have...

costello

I could not agree with jazz's last statement more. Who owns the record lables that produce this radio rap? The radio puts into rotation a large part of their music from the big 5 (the largest record companies in the country): Sony, EMI, BMG, Warner and Universal. Sony and BMG's CEO is Howard Stringer (they merged), EMI's CEO is Ken Berry, Warner's CEO is Richard Parsons, and Universal's CEO is Jean-Marie Messier. Parsons is the only African-American of them, while the rest are white. They are all middle-aged buisinessmen with no desire to create thought-provoking art. Hell, EMI is the only label not tied to a media conglomorate. These are men with the power to stop this degrading form of marketing, but yet they dont. Why? Money of course! Most anything on the radio, whether it be rap, rock, etc. all pander to a specific audience. It is not about art which it should be. The radio is a marketing tool, and we need to realise this. They are selling an image regardless of the genre of music. Who are the main target? Youth. Have to mold their minds when theyre young before an independent thought is sparked in their brains. Kids need heros, and thats what these people provide, regardless of morals. Who else do poor, poverty-stricken kids have to look up to when their single parent is working two jobs to keep up rent, keep clothes on their children's back, put them through school all without having to move out of their house into a neighborhood where parents have already lost that battle. Thats just one situation out of many, but that just happened to be mine. As long as this image that they are selling keeps getting profits, there is no reason to stop.

By the way, hip-hop is my favorite type of music at the moment. You have to remember that the music you hear on the radio is generally not going to be a great representation of a particular genre. Before you cast it off, at least hear what unspoiled, pure, intelligent hip-hop sounds like. I'll toss together a small list:


Mr. Lif (well spoken MC out of boston, on an idependent rap label called Definitive Jux) listen to "Home of the Brave"
Common (popular, has guest spots on a lot of the roc-a-fella artists' songs. vivid storyteller) listen to "I Used to Love H.E.R.
KRS-ONE (grammy winning 80's rapper, incredibly intelligent) listen to "Self Destruction"
A Tribe Called Quest (one of, if not the most popular rap group of the 90's) listen to "Sukka Nigga"
Nas (tackled many issuses facing the black culture with incredibly vivid verses) listen to "One Mic"

There are countless more if you find you like those PM me and ill send ya lots more.

bigoldalphamale

i see alot of blame flying...blame the rapper writing the music and 'smacking asses', or blame the media moguls peddling the tunes for profit. you are all wrong. its the parents who should be blamed. i see more bling bling and thugery on a random thursday night when i watch a regular season NBA game. i see it in football with blingblingin ray lewis getting away with stabbing someone, some other sports athlete runs over a meter maid with his blinged out escalade. thugery and bling pervades the black culture in every aspect...not just music. and if parents dont want thier kids exposed to it...then the belts need to fly...the camping trips need to happen with a little more frequency.

once again, it is not somebody elses responsibility to raise another's children. not the music label, not the rapper, not the government, not sports owners....nobody but the kid's own damned parents. let the rappers, pro athletes, and other 'role models' have their ignorant bling lifestyle (because that's what i personally think of it) because that is what this country allows for them. raise your kids better, and none of this shit will matter.

roachboy

it seems to me that to address anything about the opening post coherently, you have to seperate the stories of young damaged children from hip-hop in general.
the story is about damaged children--in this story, hiphop becomes a simple-minded way of rationalizing the damage, one that enables the poster to blame a cultural form for the effects inflicted by social organization--class ideology, the implications of that ideology on education, the results of education as strict instrument of class reproduction in the states, the effects of the existing segregated social order on families, etc.....

it is much easier to blame hip-hop.

it is also ridiculous.

in general i agree with the folk above like jazz and costello, but only in general...it seems that everything that is being said about hip hop somes from the outside, looking at it as it gets staged across videos, or as the commercially dominant forms have become over the past few years---and i think what folk have said about conscious hip-hop covers the main objections that one could have on this level....

but how do folk imagine one assimilates hip-hop?
do you imagine that it is completely a matter of emulating the superficial elements (which is what capitalism offers everyone--surfaces--festishes...)
so like other folk have said, one motivation of the opening post is a reaction to hip-hop as corporate "music"---to what the corporate actors in "the market" have reduced it to in their quest for maximum profits for themselves (certainly not for the artists....)
and what the corporate-dominated relay systems (radio, tv) choose to reduce hip hop to.
a more coherent response to this situation called "rap" in the opening post would be to make basic seperations within hip hop and then think about the extent to which corporate music is trafficking in reducing it to a series of fantasies of wealth. and oppose that---argue that **this general kind** of hip-hop is complicit in extending the damage inflicted by american social organization on these kids to the extent that it colonizes their dreams....with fantasies of based on exactly the same bourgeois fetishization of wealth that probably drives the opening posters (and many other people's) world in different, more "acceptable" sectors...the "american dream" for example...blah blah blah....

but we do not get that here.

if you imagine that the above are the only ways to reapond to hip-hop, then you contradict one of the most interesting things about it, which is the rejection of passive consumption--think about what turntablists do to albums--they make albums from products designed for consumption (you sit, you listen, nice puppy) into objects that form the base for more creativity...where is the problem with that? it involves a radical rethinking of the relation to commodities, one that runs well outside the relations i expect most middle class types who wring their hands about the corruptions engendered by hip hop have to any of the objects they surround themselves with....

you should try to do what turntablists do before you talk shit about the form.
you have no idea.

have you tried to freestyle? or rap set lyrics even? it is not a simple as it appears to be....where is the problem with exposing kids to the possibilities of making poetry and situating that poetry in a particular musical context?
where is the problem with kids experimenting with poetry?

you might not like the kind of poetry---at worst, it is very straight conceptually underneath the slang--but at its best, it can be a marvel--listen to some of the tracks rakim has released for example---in the ghetto from "let the rhythm hit em" or lyrics of fury from "follow the leader"---or in a somewhat more clunky vein. p.e.: or mos def or talib kweli...or krs (check "my philosophy" for another example)

is the problem that you do not like this as poetry?
because it is not suitably--well what? bourgeois? "mainstream"?
because it expresses something of the radical class and spatial modes of segregation of america?
because you do not want to have to see the effects of the mode of social organization that you work to normalize?
are we still in a version of the old w.e.b. dubois vs. booker t washington debate about embourgeoisement, wrapped up in a new package?
is the problem that you would prefer to see a single, middle-class english, and resent the valorization of spoken english in what labov called the general frame of "black english"?

but back to hip hop: how does a form that encourages a very active manipulation and bending of language a bad thing?
who does it "hold back"?

you should try out writing in this mode and rapping before you talk shit about hip hop.
again, you have no idea.

if you not approve of the illusion that is portrayed in the commercial sectors that anyone who raps will necessarily become a big star? well then why not reject all of popular music on the same grounds? because the same argument has been recycled through almost all of it since the 1950s--it is fundamental to the "popular" aspect of popular music--from rock to punk to electronica--all of it at one level or another traffics in the idea that the players are just like the audience, that music is just a question of shifting gears a little, learning a few basic moves, then wealth and fame necessarily follow...
but here too, you get another classical trope from the wonderful world of capitalist culture--the one that eliminates practice, that eliminates process, which is predicated on complete ignorance of what music actually requires. you reduce a way of life to a series of gestures.
you do that and you eliminate music along with it.
hip hop does not do that.
hang out in/around any underground hip hop scene and you will have your ears pinned back.

so. this is already too long. sorry about that.
but this kind of argument really irritates me.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

roachboy

nb: maybe you should encourage these kids to actually take hip hop seriously, to try to do it--provide them with the encouragement and the material possibilities to carry out an engagement with the form.
it would stand the passive fantasy world you complain about on its head.
it would show straight away that hip hop is a craft, like any other form of music.
it would probably drive the kids straight out of coporate music, because of its obvious limitations.
if you did it, you could show them other types of the music.
or they would try to find them on their own.
but to even start you would have to abandon the absurd position that the opening is based on.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Jazzbone

It’s not my cup of tea and correct me if I'm wrong but the way I see it, Rap is the art form. (Rap) is the poem, the music, the dance, the "craft"...

Hip hop, the way I see it, is the dress, the attitude, the style, the language, the culture...

Anyone (with the talent) can immerse themselves in rap, the art form or craft and find enjoyment, fulfillment, even success...

Will creating or simply listening too (rap), hold them back in life’s rat race? No...

Anyone can immerse themselves into the hip hop culture too. It's dress, graffiti, language etc. Will emersion into that lifestyle hold you back in life’s rat race? Yes...

Like any rebellious culture, they’re nice places to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there (for too long) or it WILL hold you back...

Rap today parallels rock n' roll in the 50's. Some people thought Elvis (and corporate commercialism of "black music") was the end of civilization right?

smooth

Using your terms, I will concede that emersing oneself in a hip-hop culture can result in negative consequences. Hip-hop (culture) subverts acceptable culture by intentionally inverting and redefining acceptable modes of behavior. For example, the most recognized feature of this culture is the skewed baseball cap bill--worn intentionally "wrong" in reference to how bills on caps "ought" to be worn: sideways or backwards instead of over the face. Clothes worn too big, too long, or too anything.

Adhering to any subversive culture is going to result in negative consequences when the status-quo culture is too entrenched--I can't deny that. But I would hope people place the blame where it squarely rests: on adherence to subversive cultures, in general, rather than a particular (racial; becoming class) kind.

That's all I really have to say about that.

Add to the list:
Last Emperor
Da Coup
Rage Against the Machine
Atmosphere

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

World's King

Just like with social aspect of life there are gonna be a few people that take it way too fuckin' far. These are the artists that promote violence and sex. It’s cliché to even say but it’s true. There are artists out there that don’t buy into that side of hip-hop. And those are the ones that are always gonna go un-noticed. Why? Because they don’t shock, piss off, piss on, or raise hell. They make their point with a story placed over a beat. It’s the difference between talk because you have something to say and talking for the sake of talking.

There is a local Denver hip-hop group called the Break Mechanics. It’s 3 MCs, a drummer, a keyboardist, and a bassist. It’s all live. They happen to be the best group that I’ve heard in a long time. Hip-hop or not. It’s not because they have a different sound or because I know the drummer. It’s because they have energy and can hold the audience for two hours. They don’t get angry. They don’t use the word bitch. They don’t care if you’re white. As a matter of fact half the drummer, bassist, and keyboardist are white. But they have more soul and understanding of the music they anyone with a top selling rap album today. Why? Because they aren’t making music to get laid and paid. They’re doing it because they love the sound. They create art. Now… I’m ranting here.

What I’m saying is that hip-hop has a bad name because of the ones that do it for the wrong reasons. It’s become the only out that most kids in ghettos have. You either sign a record deal or you play for the Lakers. That’s it. And writing a silly rhyme about how hard it was growing up in the ghetto is a fuck of a lot easier then being good at basketball. And because anyone with enough pull/guns/whatthefuckever can get themselves a record deal we have this influx of bad talent. Hip-hop doesn’t cause problems it’s the lack of talent in hip-hop that’s causing all the problems. All you gotta do is say the word nigga, bitch, or ma’fucker over a beat produced my Dr. Dre and you’ve got yourself a million in the bank and enough dumb fuckin’ groupies to last you for the next year or until everyone stops caring about you because a new guy came out that said the word fuck just a little bit better then you…


The music industry is a bitch, ma’fucker.

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

Lasereth

I think that pretty much nailed it.

-Lasereth

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert