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Old 07-19-2004, 05:22 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Now...this really scares me.

Tucked behind a gleaming machine gun, Sgt. Joseph Hall grins at his two companions in the Humvee.

"I want to know if I killed that guy yesterday," Hall says. "I saw blood spurt from his leg, but I want to be sure I killed him."

The vehicle goes silent as the driver, Spc. Joshua Dubois, swerves around asphalt previously uprooted by a blast.

"I'm confused about how I should feel about killing," says Dubois, who has a toddler back home. "The first time I shot someone, it was the most exhilarating thing I'd ever felt."

Dubois turns back to the road. "We talk about killing all the time," he says. "I never used to talk this way. I'm not proud of it, but it's like I can't stop. I'm worried what I will be like when I get home."

The men aren't Special Forces soldiers. They're just ordinary troops with the Army's 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment serving their 14th month in Iraq, much of it in daily battles. In 20 minutes, they will come under attack.

Many GIs and Army psychiatrists say these constant conversations about death help troops come to grips with the trauma of combat. But mental health professionals within and outside the military point to the chatter as evidence of preventable anguish.

Soldiers are untrained, experts say, for the trauma of killing. Forty years after lessons learned about combat stress in Vietnam, experts charge that avoidable psychological damage goes unchecked because military officials don't include emotional preparation in basic training.

Troops, returning home with untreated and little-understood mental health issues, put themselves and their families at risk for suicide and domestic violence, experts say. Twenty-three U.S. troops in Iraq took their lives last year, according to the Defense Department — an unusually high number, one official acknowledged.

On patrol, however, all that is available is talk.

"Kill, kill, kill, kill, kill," Hall says. "It's like it pounds at my brain. I'll figure out how to deal with it when I get home."

Home is the wrong place for soldiers to deal with combat experiences, some experts say.

"It's complete negligence," says Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, a retired psychology instructor at West Point who trains law enforcement officers and special operations soldiers.

"The military could train soldiers to talk about killing as easily as they train them to pull the trigger. But commanders are in denial. Nobody wants to accept the blame for a soldier who comes home a wreck for doing what his country asked him to do," he said.

The emotional and psychological ramifications of killing are mostly unstudied by the military, defense officials acknowledge.

"The idea and experience of killing another person is not addressed in military training," says Col. Thomas Burke, director of mental health policy for the Defense Department. "Training's intent is to re-create battle, to make it an automatic behavior among soldiers."

He defends the approach, saying that if troops think too much about emotional issues in combat situations, it could undermine their effectiveness in battle.



Other military representatives, including officers overseeing combat stress control programs, did not return repeated phone calls seeking comment.

Much of the military's research on killing and battle stress began after World War II, when studies revealed that only a small number of troops — as few as 15% — fired at their adversaries on the battlefield.

Military studies suggested that troops were unexpectedly reluctant to kill. Military training methods changed, Grossman and others say, to make killing a more automatic behavior.

Bull's-eye targets used in basic training were replaced with human-shaped objects. Battlefield conditions were reproduced more accurately, Burke says. The goal of these and other modifications was to help soldiers react more automatically.

The changes were effective. In the Vietnam War, 95% of combat troops shot at hostile fighters, according to military studies.

Veterans of the Vietnam War also suffered some of the highest levels of psychological damage — possibly as many as 50% of combat forces suffered mental injury, says Rachel MacNair, an expert on veteran psychology. Most notable among the injuries was post-traumatic stress disorder, a condition contributing to violent outbursts years after soldiers leave battlefields.

"The more soldiers ignore their emotions and behave like trained machines rather than thinking people, the more you invite PTSD," says Dr. David Spiegel with the Stanford School of Medicine.

Military officials say there have been changes in treating psychological trauma since Vietnam.

Foremost among them is the creation of combat stress-control teams — mental health professionals in Iraq who speak with troops immediately after traumatic events, such as a U.S. casualty.

Military psychologists say immediate intervention is important in avoiding mental distress.

"We get them to voice what they are feeling, to realize they're not the odd man out, not to blame themselves," says Capt. Robert Cardona, a psychiatrist with a combat stress-control team based in southern Iraq.

But the demands of the military's mission and a soldier's mental health are sometimes at odds.

"Our primary goal is to keep soldiers functional, so they can continue to fight," Cardona says. "Everything else, including feeling well, is second to that."

Mental health technicians are available for troops who request help, Cardona says, but stress teams aren't deployed to bases just because U.S. forces kill hostile fighters. He says about half of the soldiers seeking help are traumatized because they killed someone.

"Killing unleashes emotions few people are prepared to deal with," Cardona says. "We help soldiers put those emotions and experiences away, so they can go into battle the next day. We set the expectation that shock is temporary, and that they will return to duty."

He's familiar with the death fixation in the soldiers' conversations.

"When they talk, they're trying to prove to themselves and each other that what happens doesn't matter," he says. "There's a posturing going on, and sometimes soldiers themselves don't know how much they are affected by what they see. They start to believe what they tell each other."

*

Talk Turns to Killing

The men of the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment's Alpha and Charlie companies are resting and playing cards in the shade of a staircase here, and the talk turns to killing.

"I enjoy killing Iraqis," says Staff Sgt. William Deaton, 30, who killed a hostile fighter the night before. Deaton has lost a good friend in Iraq. "I just feel rage, hate when I'm out there. I feel like I carry it all the time. We talk about it. We all feel the same way."

Sgt. Cleveland T. Rogers, 25, avoids dwelling on his actions.

"The other day an Iraqi guy was hit real bad, he was gonna die within an hour, but he was still alive and he started saying, 'Baby, baby,' telling me he has a kid," Rogers says. "I mentioned it to my guys after the mission. It doesn't bother me. It can't bother me. If it was the other way around, I'm sure it wouldn't bother him."

Spc. Nathan Borlee tries to keep a lid on what he's feeling.

"I feel like I'd lose control if I think about it too much, so I don't," the 23-year-old says. "Usually everybody comes back and just gives everybody a hug. You kind of get overwhelmed by the feelings."

Without the proper training, experts say, these conversations may contribute to mental injuries.

Grossman says training troops to have therapeutic discussions about killing is "not that hard." His curriculum, used by law enforcement officers and in the wake of traumas such as school shootings, focuses on mental and physical techniques to consciously manage anxiety and other emotional reactions to killing.

"To make killing instinctual, rather than conscious, is inviting pathological, destructive behavior," Grossman says. "We have to give soldiers a vocabulary to talk through emotions and teach them not to be embarrassed by troubling feelings."

Grossman says his suggestions have been overlooked by military commanders who are uncomfortable with the emotionally destructive aspects of military service.

"The military goes for long periods without having to kill anyone," he says. "Generals don't spend a lot of time dealing with the parts that come after battle."

Others say today's soldiers are fundamentally different from previous generations.

"These guys grew up with video games," says Maj. John Hamilton, 50, an Army chaplain stationed in southern Iraq, where he counsels troops. "They've seen thousands of people die on TV. They're already numb. It scares me that some take delight in combat.

"Others just become immediately scared, have nightmares. But that reaction is more frowned upon."

*

Duty vs. Ethics

Back in the Humvee, Hall and Dubois approach an abandoned elementary school that commanders say is hiding mortars and hostile fighters. Suddenly, the ground is punctuated by the yellow bursts of improvised explosive devices.

Hall begins firing his .50-caliber machine gun, the phosphorus on each fifth bullet trailing long, red streaks.

The constantly squawking radio pauses briefly and a calm, transmitted voice fills the truck.

"Enemy contact," the radio broadcasts. "Kill 'em, kill 'em."

Ahead, a tank pushes a hole through the school's wall. Staff Sgt. Robert McBride, 35, enters a classroom and sees a group of six Iraqis with guns, he later recounts. He throws a grenade. The blast cuts one Iraqi in half, and the rest lie dying from abrasions and burns on their bodies. The soldiers collect dozens of mortar rounds and return to their vehicles. McBride looks at the hostile fighters once more.

"It did not bother me at all to see those bodies up close," McBride says later. "I'm a warrior. You're either born to this or you're not.

"My soldiers, they are all warriors. They have no problems. I don't let them have problems. There is no place in this Army for men who aren't warriors."

The men's commander, however, worries about them.

"During the heat of the battle the adrenaline is such you don't really think about it," says Capt. Brandon Payne, 28. "Once that adrenaline wears off, though, it gets tough. Some kids, it rolls right off their backs. Some, it's like they break down a little more each day."

Payne is as conflicted as his troops about making sense of war. Reconciling duty with ethics, he says, seems more complicated in Iraq.

"I'm a Christian. I feel I'm saving my soldiers' lives by destroying as many enemy as I can. But at the end of each day, I pray to God. I worry about my soul," he says.

"Every time a door slams, I flinch. I'm hoping it will just go away when I get home."


---------------------------------------

This is an AP story...Just released

Here is the link

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ctkillemkillem
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Old 07-19-2004, 05:34 PM   #2 (permalink)
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War thrusts one into a completely different universe--one where I dont think we, sitting here comfortably typing away on our computers, are in any position to judge.

The emphasis the soldiers seem to place on killing only seems to me a natural extension of the environment into which they are placed. It seems brutish and barbaric to many, but again--war is something completely unlike anything most of us have experienced.

Such black humor in soldiers isnt anything new. Read any account of war in the twentieth century--WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam... It seems to be a way of keeping themselves sane in such an insane place. Finding humor in the carnage. Again, not something I think any of us are in any position to judge.

I believe there are a few here on this board who have experienced combat. Perhaps they can elaborate.
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Old 07-19-2004, 05:51 PM   #3 (permalink)
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What you guys considered "normal" and "appropriate" in the civilian world we considered "silly" and out of touch in the military world/combat zones. Things that we consider important now, mean nothing when the bullets are flying.

Yes the humor is black and sometimes almost inhuman. It is just your mind adapting to the situation.

It's a whole different world in the military, especially when there are bullets heading towards you.

This is thread really isn't fair because, as mentioned above, you cannot understand the circumstances.

Personally, I think any answer or response in this thread should start with "I Served/Didn't Serve in the Military". That way, those of us that have actually been there know where you are coming from.

Remember, your tax dollars are paying for us to be killers. That is our ultimate purpose. You need people that will do this job whether you like it or not, so be careful how you judge.

-I will admit that there are a few real nutjobs in the service that scared the hell out of me when I was in. It is not the norm and nobody likes 'em.

-FYI, your "humor" changes when you get back to the civilian world. In most cases, it goes away when you get back. I can remember some of the humor that you would think insane. We thought it was funny. I don't use it anymore and it really isn't funny anymore.

It is a reaction to the fact that you can be killed at anytime, nothing more.

Edit: Gulf I vet, with medals
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Old 07-19-2004, 05:57 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I haven't served.

I can understand that completely though. I'm sure I would have to do something to completely change my mindset or I would lose it.

I didn't know what to think about this:
Quote:
"Our primary goal is to keep soldiers functional, so they can continue to fight," Cardona says. "Everything else, including feeling well, is second to that."
I guess that's good for the country that they keep the soldiers fighting, but I could see that going too far. But again, I haven't served so I don't know what it's like.
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Old 07-19-2004, 06:04 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I would agree, mental health would come second to having a functional soldier. You want him/her fit and healthy first.

For the foot soldier, combat becomes automatic. You get to a point where everything is natural, almost involuntary. The main reason is that it helps reduce hesitancy. The second reason is it keeps you from remembering that there is a real, live human being (that also has a mother, father, wife, husband, son, daughter, etc.) that you are pointing at.
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Old 07-19-2004, 08:11 PM   #6 (permalink)
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some of these guys could be the timothy mcveys of the future
what a tragic waste of human life all round
mostly over oil
i cant beleive how many people keep lining up to kill or be killed
what a shame
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Old 07-19-2004, 09:30 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Maybe we should talk the motherfuckers to death!
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Old 07-19-2004, 09:44 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
i cant beleive how many people keep lining up to kill or be killed
I cant believe people who would refuse to help those in need when they have the power to change it.
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Old 07-19-2004, 10:02 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by cookkee
some of these guys could be the timothy mcveys of the future
what a tragic waste of human life all round
mostly over oil
i cant beleive how many people keep lining up to kill or be killed
what a shame
Unbelievable.
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Old 07-19-2004, 10:20 PM   #10 (permalink)
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The only shame is that people such as cookkee fail to appreciate the sacrifices made by these soldiers. People serve their country for a variety of reasons, but all of them in the end do their best to ensure the sanctity of America. You may disagree with the policies of their leaders, but how can you disrespect those who serve?
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Old 07-19-2004, 10:22 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by cookkee
some of these guys could be the timothy mcveys of the future
what a tragic waste of human life all round
mostly over oil
i cant beleive how many people keep lining up to kill or be killed
what a shame
what a horrible thing to say. tell that to one of our soldier's faces, I'm sure they would appreciate what you have to say.

I'm guessing you have never served in the military. I notice you have an extreme lack of respect for the men and women who risk and give their lives to protect our freedom and make sure that you can sit your ass down in front of your computer and bad-mouth them with out the risk of rockets or suicide bombers blowing themselves up outside your home. Whether or not you agree with the war is a different issue, but this disrespect towards our soldiers is a disgrace.
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Old 07-20-2004, 01:00 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Arroe:

It pains me to see somebody talk this quickly about disrespect, and badmouthing people.

Try to look at it this way: cookkee worries about individual lives, and the way they impact smaller groups of people like their family and friends.
Every person that dies here, is a drama.

You look at it from a purely nationalist pov... the death of these lives to you is a statistic, a cost for preserving the way of life of all the others.


So in fact, you are just as disrespectful of cookkee and her point of view of individual drama's, as she is of disrespect for the greater goal.
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Old 07-20-2004, 02:39 AM   #13 (permalink)
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My intent in posting this was to point out the pain and suffering war brings, and to add a little perspective. My fear is not of a War Hero losing it and going on a killing spree at home. My fears have to do with the ramifications these people will feel after all this killing is finished in Iraq.
Support for this war is diminishing quickly at home, and I can remember the results of this after (and during) the war in Viet Nam. I was simply attempting to remind us all that we have a commitment to deal with the effects our policy will have on those who are charged to carry out our killing, and it is not going to be pretty.

This has been your weekly reality check.
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Old 07-20-2004, 02:44 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Old 07-20-2004, 03:16 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Very powerful, especially the first person elements.

I consider myself very fortunate to not have had to deal with these issues in my carreer. I never had to be the trigger man.

That does not mean I wasn't ever part of a larger force that killed thousands of people. I struggle with that, even though it was less direct than the events described.

I don't know how these guys cope with it.
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Old 07-20-2004, 06:26 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
My intent in posting this was to point out the pain and suffering war brings, and to add a little perspective.
How can you tell us what your intent was when all you said was "this really scares me" and posted a long news story?

If that was your intent that you should've said it on your original post.

And no, people like us take Cookkee's comments personally. Most of the troops believe in the cause and believe in the mission.

Cookkee - Gulf I was about oil, this one isn't. If it was about oil, I would be paying almost $2.00/gallon.

I just......I won't respond further to Cookkee's comments.....unbelievable.
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Old 07-20-2004, 07:31 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by KMA-628
How can you tell us what your intent was when all you said was "this really scares me" and posted a long news story?

If that was your intent that you should've said it on your original post.


My apologies for any offense, as that was far from my intent. I honestly am contemplating a permanent leave of absence from the politics board, everyone is so damn touchy.
This was a completely honest and heartfelt post, concerning my personal fears for our troops, and here I am feeling a fool for hoping we could use this as a constructive piece of information to bring light to a harsh reality.
I don't think I will bother anymore, as the debtes have gone from this board, replaced with negativity. While I commend Art for his attempt to bring some level of sanity to these discussions, I have grown so very tired of putting forth the effort.

Good Day, Back to lurking for me.

edit* Damn I thought this was the politics board...then I remembered I purposefully placed this here to avoid the discourse inherent there, Now I feel that much more the fool.

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Last edited by tecoyah; 07-20-2004 at 07:35 AM..
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Old 07-20-2004, 07:48 AM   #18 (permalink)
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"Our primary goal is to keep soldiers functional, so they can continue to fight," Cardona says. "Everything else, including feeling well, is second to that."

To me that says all that needs to be said in response to the issues raised.

The fact that there is a price we all pay as a result of the realities of war is a given.
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Old 07-20-2004, 07:54 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I didn't get the impression cookke was trying to insult the troops, but rather point out how tradgic it is that our troops have to develope this crazy mentality which they have to cope with now because of a bogus war.
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Old 07-20-2004, 09:25 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Im so sick of people always whining about "disrespecting our troops". Why do we all have to "respect" them? I dont feel sorry for these guys, as a matter a fact, I hate them, I have no respect for murderers, be it war or otherwise, and that is exactly what soldiers are.

These three quotes pretty much sum up why I feel this way:

"I enjoy killing Iraqis," says Staff Sgt and

"The other day an Iraqi guy was hit real bad, he was gonna die within an hour, but he was still alive and he started saying, 'Baby, baby,' telling me he has a kid," Rogers says. "I mentioned it to my guys after the mission. It doesn't bother me. It can't bother me."

"It did not bother me at all to see those bodies up close," McBride says later. "I'm a warrior. You're either born to this or you're not."

These guys had a decision to make, to be a normal human being, or to be a killing maching without a heart, and they chose option 2. Dont give me the sob story about how sometimes its their last option and that they needed the money, boohoo, a lot of people have problems, but they dont murder people to solve it.

I especially found this quote quite amusing: "I'm a Christian. I feel I'm saving my soldiers' lives by destroying as many enemy as I can. "

LOL, Im sure God is mighty proud of him. for "destroying as many enemies as he can".

Anyways, I will shut up now, as Im sure I have offended many people, which of course is not my intention, but this country is all about freedom of speech and opinion, right? After all, that is why we have to kill all the Iraqis, they were rapidly taking our "freedom" away from us.
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Old 07-20-2004, 10:12 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Why do we all have to "respect" them? I dont feel sorry for these guys, as a matter a fact, I hate them
And every man in uniform hates spoiled brats like you who take everything they, and everyone who came before them have given for granted. Congradulations since you're in an elite class... right up there with Rene Gonzalez.

Quote:
I will shut up now, as Im sure I have offended many people, which of course is not my intention, but this country is all about freedom of speech and opinion, right?
Remember the quote about opening your mouth removing all doubt? Maybe you should look it up again.

... I'm going to go work out now because my hand is shaking I'm so pissed off.
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Old 07-20-2004, 10:13 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Last edited by Rdr4evr; 07-20-2004 at 10:32 AM..
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Old 07-20-2004, 10:24 AM   #23 (permalink)
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OK, folks, I understand that there are a lot of strong feelings on both sides, but let's keep this from getting personal. If you can't post without making a personal attack, hit the back button and wait till you're calm.

Carry on. Politely.
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Old 07-20-2004, 10:31 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by lurkette
OK, folks, I understand that there are a lot of strong feelings on both sides, but let's keep this from getting personal. If you can't post without making a personal attack, hit the back button and wait till you're calm.

Carry on. Politely.
I apoligize, he gave the first blow, but my response has been edited.
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Old 07-20-2004, 11:04 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Soliders currently in Iraq or soliders that were in Vietnam are NOTHING like the soldiers who actually fought an enemy that was a threat to the world/USA and are considered heroes by many during an important conflict such as WWII.

Vietnam was a pretty pointless war that didn't result in a single thing except unnecessary casualties because the USA couldn't swallow its pride.

The soliders in Iraq aren't fighting for anyone's freedom except that of the Iraqi people. No one attacked us, and no one invaded us, so the whole "they fight for you while you sit and bitch" doesn't really hold any water. What they do there has no effect on us here. Of course, that's open to debate since Saddam was a tyrant and COULD HAVE done something in the future.

People act like we're on the verge of being conquered by another country and are about to lose our freedom. Sorry, but it's not gonna be another country that takes our freedom away, it's gonna be our own.

Sure, the soldiers volunteered to be in the military, but I highly doubt they want to be in Iraq right now. Most are probably there so they can get the fuck outta dodge and do something with their life, not die for something that has little to no impact on their life.

The whole "respect our troops" thing is a bit cliche. If there was an actual war going on that had us on the verge of living/dying, then I'd feel differently, but currently, I just feel sorry for 'em.

[edit]
Let's ditch all the goons who wanna give up basic rights for a false sense of security (most of the general population) as well as the corresponding laws (Patriot Act) and maybe I'd have a bit more respect for this country, but till then, the whole sense of pride, patriotism, and utmost resepct for those who serve in the military is non-existent.
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Old 07-20-2004, 11:19 AM   #26 (permalink)
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My friend in Iraq says you have to talk about it. Its the guys that don't say anything, and keep everything inside that end up killing themselves.
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Old 07-20-2004, 11:23 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I'm gonna try to play both sides here in an effort to increase understanding...here goes...

On one hand, you have soldiers who are willing to put their lives on the line for their country. You have to respect that. And in order to do that effectively, and to justify internally the sacrifices they and their families are making, they have to believe in what they're doing, they have to be willing to kill as well as die for their mission, and they have to have a certain kind of gallows humor to make it out mentally intact, and even that doesn't always work. I appreciate the sacrifices of our military, and I appreciate their willingness to serve their country.

One the other hand, just because the soldiers have to believe in what they are doing doesn't mean that the rest of us have to swallow our morals and toe the line to ease their consciences. Military service requires a level of unquestioning obedience that a lot of us out here find morally suspect when the case for killing other human beings who happen to be brown and of a different nationality has not been adequately defended.

So while their willingness to serve commands a certain amount of automatic respect, I don't think it ought to exempt them from basic moral considerations. If willful killing other human beings requires a certain amount of dehumanization of both sides, we owe it to our soldiers to examine closely if the mental, emotional and moral cost to our troops is worth what they're fighting for, particularly if their role as defenders/attackers requires that they silence their own ability to question.
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Old 07-20-2004, 11:55 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Rdr4evr Post-

"Im so sick of people always whining about "disrespecting our troops". Why do we all have to "respect" them? I dont feel sorry for these guys, as a matter a fact, I hate them, I have no respect for murderers, be it war or otherwise, and that is exactly what soldiers are."

Oh no buddy... you don't have to respect them. What have they done to earn or deserve your respect anyway? You sit there with your pompous attitude. Never realizing the sacrifices that soldiers have paid. Not just in this conflict, but all of them. Just to give the right to sit there and be an ass!

Have you ever looked over at a buddy and seen his life slip away! I think not!

Have you ever lost a family member because of war?

Have you ever been in a combat situation with bullets whizzing by your head, Mortars dropping all around you?

These men and women makes these sacrifices because they believed in something strong enough to lay their life on the line.
And because of that choice to become a soldier. They have an option, it is a very simple one. One that has been around since the beginning of time. To kill or be killed.

This one cracks me up also:
Note:
These were the after affects of a combat situation: So unless you have been in one: Ahhh never mind you know...

You wrote:

"These guys had a decision to make, to be a normal human being, or to be a killing maching without a heart, and they chose option 2. Dont give me the sob story about how sometimes its their last option and that they needed the money, boohoo, a lot of people have problems, but they dont murder people to solve it."

Have you ever been to a combat zone? How many "normal" people you think are there? So all people in the military that are soldiers are "Killing machines without a heart?" I am really confused by that whole paragraph. Please explain the point you were trying to make.

Oh.. and by the way I have served
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Old 07-20-2004, 12:07 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by joeb1
Rdr4evr Post-


You wrote:

Oh.. and by the way I have served
Yeah its obvious by your attitute. Point proven. You are perfect for the military. You are a perfect example of everything I said.


Quote:
Have you ever looked over at a buddy and seen his life slip away! I think not!
Im assuming you are talking about on the battle field, if so, no I have not. I am not sick enough to risk my life as well as take others' lives away from them. I am not God, and therfore do not have the right to take any individual's life.

Quote:
Have you ever lost a family member because of war?
No, I havent, thank god. I hope I never lose a family member because soldiers like you think you have the right to take their lives.

Quote:
Have you ever been in a combat situation with bullets whizzing by your head, Mortars dropping all around you?
Refer to answer #1.











Last edited by Rdr4evr; 07-20-2004 at 12:19 PM..
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Old 07-20-2004, 12:18 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I apoligize, he gave the first blow, but my response has been edited.
No, I and most of my family are in uniform, you insulted all of us with your immature killing machine remark.

Go ahead and pass judgement on people who are going through things you can never imagine, and feel secure behind your monitor while the wolves growl at the door. Because those people you pass off as killing machines are on the wall refusing to back down, ensuring those behind them that they will no sleep while standing sentry. That no matter what they have to face those at home will be able to sleep soundly because of what they do. Go ahead and stab them in the back while they stand guard over you, everything you believe in, and everyone you've ever loved.
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Old 07-20-2004, 12:21 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Seaver
No, I and most of my family are in uniform, you insulted all of us with your immature killing machine remark.

Go ahead and pass judgement on people who are going through things you can never imagine, and feel secure behind your monitor while the wolves growl at the door. Because those people you pass off as killing machines are on the wall refusing to back down, ensuring those behind them that they will no sleep while standing sentry. That no matter what they have to face those at home will be able to sleep soundly because of what they do. Go ahead and stab them in the back while they stand guard over you, everything you believe in, and everyone you've ever loved.
LOL, they are standing guard over me???? By killing innocent Iraqi's. Thanks, I needed a good laugh.
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Old 07-20-2004, 12:24 PM   #32 (permalink)
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That's it, I'm done talking to you. I pray one day you mature enough to the point to be able to look at a man in uniform and thank him for the sacrifice he's willing to make for your freedoms.
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Old 07-20-2004, 12:27 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I pray one day you will realize taking someones life is not something to be proud of.
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Old 07-20-2004, 12:42 PM   #34 (permalink)
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ENOUGH

This post has gotten so far off topic that I have doubts of its redeemability. One more troll, one more flame, one more outburst, and I close this thread down.

Rdr4evr...you are certainly entitled to your opinion. Hell, I even served in the military that gives you the right to voice it. But you have to see that you're trolling. And, as for the rest of you...you question his maturity? Who's taking the bait and running with it?
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Old 07-20-2004, 12:56 PM   #35 (permalink)
 
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that a war would be understood as a sociopathic environment from a non-war vantage point seems obvious. that there would be incomprehension going both ways about what that means is not surprising either: from the point of view of those who have been in a war situation---people need to feel justified in their actions--the difference between war and non-war would create trouble for people who had been in the former in creating a consistent narrative for themselves, one that would enable them to function in both places. that the narrative would get shifted from particular experiences (in these places, these situations i had to do x,y,z....) onto a level of vaguer concepts--the notion of sacrifice, of service to the nation, etc.---follows in a fairly straight line to me.

for people who had not been in that situation, the contrast between the rules that bind them in normal life and the rules that obtain in war is quite radical--it should not surprise those who have been through this that those who have not do not understand what it is like---but at the same time, it makes no sense to attack someone if they speak on the basis of not having been there about their incomprehension of war--and for the ways of forming judgements that follow from that.

much of what seems to have generated shock earlier seems easy enough to explain if you look at it from a distance, that is analytically:

if you accept the need for a military, and the bases on which it operates, then that acceptance comes with a price: the narratives that would enable people who had been in a war situation (i cannot speak to any complexity here---this transition is obviously deeply personal for each who goes through it) to leave it behind relies to some extent on the words/images that you cede a place to when you accept the need for these institutions in the first place.

so if there is a question about the political need for a military, or the actions undertaken by that military in a given context, then any approach that runs those questions across the personal experiences and ways of framing those experiences ex post
of those who have been in combat (in particular) seems bound to end up in something like this thread.

so questions about the military, its actions, etc. should be understood as political and posed in a different way, in a different register.


what i do not understand---at all--is the seeming disregard for the mental well-being of troops who are in combat situations, and particularly for those who find the transition back into civilian life to be difficult--i refer here back to the quote that art commented on. you would think that this would be an ethical imperative--if a government is going to send people into a war situation, it owes them enough respect to provide an adequate system of health care--often long and expensive health care--after the fact to help deal with the problems that can come (for many) from putting human beings into a war situation in the first place.

and what i object to--and this goes beyond the thread--is the use made in the context of the selling of this particular to the public of exactly the same terms (words/images) that i imagine matter to folk who have been in combat situations to mobilize political sentiment for the war. that a discussion about this particular war can so easily degenerate into this sort of non-conversation is sad--and it is the result of rhetorical choices made by this administration for its own purposes.

and that this adminsitration has been doing the latter while cutting back on the former is beyond my comprehension.

for the record, i have not been in the military--but i have had to think about the military quite in the course of my professional life---and have relatives/friends/acquaintances who have been in.


i gotta go.
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Old 07-20-2004, 01:33 PM   #36 (permalink)
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just a general observation on the progress of this thread...

it's important to understand that maintaining respect for each other - including respectful tones of addressing each other is more important than any individual's opinion.

no one has a problem with strongly stated opinions. what is a problem is when individuals are addressed disrespectfully. this is the crucial difference. it is necessary and we enforce it.
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Old 07-20-2004, 01:36 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally posted by ARTelevision
no one has a problem with strongly stated opinions. .
Apparently, many people do.

Last edited by Rdr4evr; 07-20-2004 at 01:55 PM..
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Old 07-20-2004, 01:46 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
no one has a problem with strongly stated opinions. what is a problem is when individuals are addressed disrespectfully.
Quote:
Apparently, many people do.
As a man in uniform your "opinion" was a personal attack against me, most of my family, and my brothers under the seal.
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Old 07-20-2004, 01:58 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Because I cannot look at it from a non-emotional point of view, and discuss this topic in a rational manner.

I will drop out of this topic.
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Old 07-20-2004, 02:18 PM   #40 (permalink)
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That's quite enough.
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