panbert

Do these people have just too much time on their hands or are they just so naive as to blame video games for everything!?!?!?

O No! I know people that have played Hitman & Hitman 2, and have achieved the Silent Assassin status. They are certified killers! Lock them up now. O horror! Think of the children!!!

article from
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/com...55E661,00.html

yatzr

They just want something to blame. Video games are an easy target. I honestly think that movies are worse since video games (as good as the graphics are) do NOT seem like real life. Besides, anyone good enough to actually be good at these particular games (I've tried to be good, it's tough), is too busy playing them to go kill someone.

All you need to say to someone who says video games cause violence is look at Japan. Where are all the serial killers in that video game ridden country?

They said the same thing about Grand Theft Auto 3 as well, but there wasn't a surge of violent crimes due to that.

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ARTelevision

I wouldn't defend these games at all. Not one bit. That's my opinion.

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buclao

If games were really so influential, I'd be going around eating mushrooms, jumping on turtles, and saving princesses in towers.

Really, like it was said above, people need something to blame. They feel it can't possibly be their horrible parenting. Nobody wants to put the blame on themselves, so they blame others.

panbert

If you don't play them or know much about them, then it's very acceptable for you to not defend them.
But it gets me angry when people who don't know about them start blaming them and use them for quick & easy scarpgoats.
I don't listen to heavy rock & metal music, and I honestly know nothing about that culture, I wouldn't defend it but neither would I blame everything on something I don't understand.

theusername

This is along the lines of blaming Pac Man for obesity in the United States...

It's ridiculous. I saw Terminator when I was 5. I've played violent video games my whole life. I've never thrown a punch at anyone in my entire life.

Violence stems from anger and a lack of support, whether it be from friends, family, or parents, not video games or any other media.

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Phage

*If* it is your opinion that these games should be banned then why not go all the way? Books which contain stories about murders should be banned and burned, movies and even news containing details about such things should never be allowed to reach the public. People will not become axe murders then for the sole reason of never having heard of it before.

Come on now, do you really think these games are encouraging the player to go out and kill real people? How would you even determine that? How close does what you are shooting have to resemble a person; could it be an alien of some sort?

I think perhaps instead of infringing on the rights of gamers and game companies, there should be a very simple test given during the formative years of children, perhaps in public schools. The teachers will instruct the students that there is a red button in one or more corners of the building, which can be pressed without being very visible (except to the hidden camera). They will be informed that serious consequences will befall those who press the button for any reason, and to be sure not to do it.

Then, through the year they will be shown short video clips or games in which the objective is to press the button. If the students ask a teacher about the button they will be reminded of the consequences.

If the button is pressed the camera takes a picture, and the student or students pictured will be enrolled in a class which is aimed at teaching them how to think for themselves.

ARTelevision

Actually it has been researched sufficiently for it to be considered to have the effect of desensitizing us to violence. It is not reasonable to believe media have no effect on us. Of course, the more impressionable are affected more than the less impressionable. It is clear to me that media have effects on us - many of which are negative. Violent media are a type of cultural programming that is best considered powerful and persuasive rather than discounted because one has a particular affection for it.

Note: I won't be responding to assertions that I have not made. I'll stand behind the things I've typed. At some point I won't pursue argumentation on the subject. I'm offering a suggestion that the potentially negative effects of media should not be discounted.

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Phage

I do not agree. Violence does not stem from a lack of support from anyone. Violence stems from someone wanting to hurt someone else, and either not knowing or not caring about the consequences. I don't think that lack of knowledge is the factor, else they would be running "Don't kill people, it is bad, mmkay?" ads. If I told you to go out and kill someone, would you? Of course not! So it is absurd for you to buy a product in which people are killed and then accuse me of making you kill someone. It is your choice, and it is not my responsibility to remind you of that.

yatzr

ART, although I agree with you when you put it in terms of media, I disagree that video games specifically have the effect of desensitizing. I think the only things video games have desensitized in me are violence in video games. Blood and gore in video games is nothing like that in movies or on tv. I've played video games all my life and I can't stand the sight of blood (except in video games of course). I have to look away at shows on basic cable that show people getting plastic surgery. I freak out and have nightmares for a week if I ever see a clip of a real person dieing (like the nick berg clip...even thinking about will surely give me a nightmare tonight). I am only one person though, I can't speak for all who play video games. So through my own experiences is where I get my stand on that.

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Phage

Maybe this is the problem. Personally I think that if society was desensitized enough to violence where we could really look it in the face and understand what it is, what happens when someone is cut or shot, we would be better off. I think it is most pitiful when you watch a medical show where some gang member is in because they were shot or knifed. Too often there is shock in their eyes, not the medical condition, but the newfound knowledge of what it is to be really hurt in the manner they probably planned or carried out against others. By turning your eyes away you are depriving yourself of a truth that while painful to admit, is still true.

That is one thing I respect about the situation in the middle east. Everyone there knows the consequences of the violence they do; it is their decision to ignore the feelings of others in favor of their own that I have a problem with.

panbert

I agree with yatzr - I can't stand blood either and I close my eyes & squirm in TV shows where they show real surgery (medical documentaries & such).

When I saw Supersize Me, there was a scene where the guy had an operation to reduce his stomach size - I didn't even see one second of that as my eyes were closed the whole time.

It's not just because computer graphics in games aren't realistic, it's also the mindset and mentality. Gamers KNOW that games are not for real. Even if graphics are improved in the future to look realistic, gamers still KNOW the difference between games and reality.

Trisk

Games are games and nothing more. Most normal people understand that. People who don't have problems beyond playing games that they should have dealt with a long time ago.

I don't think we need to worry about these things being banned anytime soon. Nobody has the statistics to prove any of this as truth. People just want something to blame other than bad parenting or something.
First of all, if a parent doesn't want to raise their children on video games, sex and violence, that's their choice. And to ensure that, they should simply not buy their kids any games, not own a television, not bring their kids to the movies, not buy them most books, not bring them outside, and not own a computer. Simple, right?
The truth of the matter is that "bad" influences are all around children all the time. It's all about how they interpret these things and how their parents raise them to think of these things that matters. Furthermore, trying to pretend that sex and violence don't exist and sheltering your kid from any contact or knowledge of it can only hurt your kid in the long run. He won't know how to deal with it once he is faced with it and he'll be made fun of in school for being so naive.


Perhaps games do desensitize people to violence or pain or death...but the same can be said for becoming a doctor or a lawyar or even living in the wrong neighborhood. When you're around *anything* enough, the impact stops being so great. But that doesn't mean that you're going to go out and kill people. All it means is that every time someone dies, you're not cringing and crying all night long.

Meanwhile, tons of these people from middle-America who want to ban video games with violence enroll their children in the military when they're old enough. They can't play video games but killing real people is just fine! Part of military training is desensitizing people to death so that they don't get squeimish when actually faced with battle.

yatzr

phage, I don't think being desensitized and understanding are the same thing. In fact, I think being desensitized involves lack of understanding how bad violence is. If those kids in iraq see people killing other people all the time, they wouldn't think twice of doing it themselves. That's desensitization. They have less respect for life in that sense, and don't understand how precious it is.

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Trisk

What? Seeing people die all the time would, if anything, make them realize how much more precious life is. Life here in the US is something we take for granted because most people live to 70-90, thanks to low crime rates and great health care. If you live in a place where, at any moment, you might be blown up, every moment is that much more precious to you.

panbert

Trisk, I disagree.
Because we do have relatively long life expectancies and people around us aren't dropping life flies, I think we are more shocked and upset when tragic & violence occur in our lives.

In places where people have low life expectancies, where violent death is common, sure they may treasure their moments in life but they are less shocked.

yatzr

I do agree that many people here take life for granted, but people here also would have to think VERY VERY hard about killing another person. Over there, it seems like it's not such a big deal. I guess we can't really state how people over there think though...it's only our opinions.

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MSD

I think that the biggest problem is that parents let negative influences into their childrens' lives without being willing to be a positive influence and role model. They also allow kids to be exposed to violent images and scenarios before they have imparted a sense of reality versus disbelief or any system of values to their children. On top of that, parents just ignore kids too much in the struggle to get ahead in life.

Maybe if a parent sat down with his or her mentally ill kid when they saw him using a pipe bomb as a paperweight, he and his best friend wouldn't have shot up their school. Maybe if parents of troubled children wouldn't ignore the problem and distance themselves from the child because of the stigma associated with mental illnesses, these kids would feel loved and cared for, and less likely to imitate what they saw in a violent movie.

Short version: bad parents end up with bad kids.

Trisk

You're right that it doesn't shock them as much when people die. I was just referring to the last sentance that yatzr typed:

"They have less respect for life in that sense, and don't understand how precious it is."

panbert

What's interesting is that here in our "affluent" cultures, we have "evil" luxury items like violent video games and yet we would think twice about commit acts of violence.

In countries where dying and killing is more common (African nations in civil wars, certain Middle Eastern countries etc) violent video games are not so easily available or affordable. One wonders - how are these people learning to be so violent and trigger happy without the benefit of video games?!?!

yatzr

yes, i meant that for other people, not the individuals themselves. When someone doesn't think twice of killing another individual, they have less respect for life. They don't understand how precious each individual's life is. Sorry for the bad wording before.

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panbert

Trisk. Sorry for misunderstaning your comment.

Trisk

Extreme circumstances drive people to extreme measures.

-=shikamaru=-

Anyone see "Bowling for Columbine"?

I think some of the stuff Michael Moore brings up accounts for most of the violence in America.

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Trisk

Michael Moore is a frikkin idiot. Half of the scenes portrayed in that movie were staged. Half of the "facts" he stated in that movie were twisted and taken completely out of context. I found myself laughing or staring at my friend in disbelief many times while watching the movie. Please, take everything any extremely biased person tells you in a political film with a huge lump of salt.

www.bowlingfortruth.com

ARTelevision

It's best to be aware of the current professional evaluations when discussing this topic.

http://www.psych.org/public_info/media_violence.cfm

http://www.mediafamily.org/facts/facts_vlent.shtml

http://judiciary.senate.gov/oldsite/mediavio.htm

http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp784772.html

If one wants to be taken seriously in defending media and video game violence, one should - at least - have an awareness of these references.

My position on this is that it is clear from the currently available research that media violence has a negative effect on human beings.

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panbert

We are not arguing that media violence is GOOD or that it has no negative effect. The point is that it is hugely unfair to use video games as the scrapgoat when there are many other (& worse) forms of violent media.

panbert

Read through those articles briefly (will read them in more details when I get home).Firstly, the studies do attribute the increase in aggression to media in general, and TV in a few specific cases.

Second observation; the last article http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp784772.html
seem very biased. How is the study done!? The details of the study were very brief, only the "conclusion" was printed and then went STRAIGHT TO linking violence in video games to school shootings.
I felt the first three articles were interesting reads, but the last one was very scrapgoat style.

Boo

I have seen these effects of gaming. Divorce, obesity, poor grades and failure to progress professionally. Thankfully, I have not personally known someone that has committed violence.

IMO - Gaming is like any other facet of life. Moderation is the key. If you "need" a fix of 4 hours of gaming a day, you have a problem. Do I believe that a person that plays 40 hours a week of a violent game can be more apt to commit an act. You betcha!

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Asuka{eve}

games are just games unless you take it too far. Its kind of like copying a stunt from jackassl.

Rekna

why blame the parents when the parents came blame the video games!

analog

"Current professional evaluations" typically doesn't mean shit to me when talking about cultural differences in opinion. There was a time when doctors used to openly endorse cigarette smoking. For a long time, it was "low/no fat" and now it's "low/no carb", the exact opposite in perspective. Fuck that.

As for video games, it's just another thing for these people to spin their wheels on because they're so damn bored with their lives.

When the internet became available, people predicted that it would be the downfall of our civilization. They said the same thing about cellular phones when they came out, cable TV, the invention of TV itself, even the "moving pictures" when first introduced in the early 1900's.

People love a scapegoat. If they were so ineffectual in teaching their kids right from wrong that a simple video game could SOMEHOW turn them into vicious killers- well, that not only illuminates the depths of their failures as a positive figure in the kid's life, it also showcases just how gullible some people can be.

Misplaced enotions are a dangerous thing.

Trisk

The same can be said about anything when not used in moderation. True, gaming can have a particularly addictive quality to it, resulting in these things but so can anything when people can't balance real life with it. An unhealthy amount of television can do the same but nobody is saying we should ban televisions. The divorce part holds no validity with me because, when about 50% of marriages end in divorce, you can't blame gaming. Obviously there is another problem. I know couples in which one or both are gamers and they are very happily married.

As for myself - I game. I have been known to sit down for 14 hours (at the longest) for a gaming session. I'm not saying it's good...but on a rainy Saturday or something, it's something fun to do. Am I obese? No. I go to the gym pretty much every day (but I won't freak if I miss a day). I eat well, I've done very well academically in the past, I read a lot and I've had no problems with relationships (both platonic and otherwise). I know how to balance my life in a healthy way and no, you won't see me running down the streets of New York trying to kill people's dogs with a sword (considering that I've played rpgs and mmos, such games would supposedly encourage me to do that if they could).

DelayedReaction

This is one of the reports that Art cited in his list of examples for why violent media has a negative effect on people.

Source: Video Games and Aggressive Thoughts, Feelings, and Behavior in the Laboratory and in Life , By: Craig A. Anderson, Karen E. Dill, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 0022-3514, April 1, 2000, Vol. 78, Issue 4

This was done in 2000, so the study itself isn't all too old. In essence the study says that people have aggressive thoughts when they play aggressive video games, which is not a surprise. Everything beyond that finding is conjecture.


The Senate paper that was posted also contains questionable allegations. In particular I open up this section pertaining to video games.

Source: http://judiciary.senate.gov/oldsite/mediavio.htm

Here are those footnotes:

41 Testimony of Senator Orrin G. Hatch before the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation, May 4, 1999.

No offense to Senator Hatch, but I do not see a scientific reference here. We need a primary source to validate this statement.

42 Mark Weitzman, Technology And Terror: Extremism On The Internet, NCJW Journal, Winter 1998/99, p. 24.

As far as I can tell, NCJW stands for National Council of Jewish Women. Once again we do not have a primary source for the study cited, and worse yet the journal in question is not a peer-reviewed scientific journal.

43 Stanger and Gridina, supra note 12.

This refers to another source: Jeffrey D. Stanger and Natalia Gridina, Media in the Home 1999, The Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania, Report Series No. 5, 1999, p. 3.

Source: http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycent...ey/survey5.pdf

I must be blind, but nowhere in this paper did I find a reference to violent video games being similar to military simulators. Given that in 1999 the most advanced FPS game was Quake 3, I fail to see how this is a proper correlation. (Unless the rocket jump has become a valid military tactic, and nobody told me.)


Here's an interesting report that I can't access because my school hasn't renewed their subscription. At the very least the abstract is engaging.

Source: JAMA: Journal of the American Medical Association; 4/21/2004, Vol. 291 Issue 15, p1822, 3p, 1c

I've seen plenty of studies that seem to demonstrate a link between aggressive thoughts and violent video games, but nothing that shows the kind of link we need before we ban a form of entertainment. The fact that youth violence has DECREASED despite the fact that video games are more realistic, more prevalent, and more popular (as stated in the abstract above) is extremely interesting. How can video games have a significant negative impact if we're seeing less violence?

Violent video games are a form of entertainment that appeals to a specific group of people. Some of those people may be imbalanced, and violent video games may either provide them with an escape or foster aggressive thoughts that lead to violent behavior. The problem is that we don't know, and the vast majority of the people out there who play games are normal and well-adjusted individuals.

The Hitman series are not realistic in any sense of the word. You do not see bald superhuman assassins wander around with bar codes on the back of their neck. Hitmen do not evade detection simply by changing their clothes. And anyone who manages to fire as accurately as Agent 47 does with akimbo 1911's is definitely not of this world.

So let's all step back, relax, and go play Doom for a few hours.

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GakFace

See, the thing I find which is so funny, is that they always talk about you doing the killing... You doing the violence.

Can any gamer here honestly say that they've NEVER DIED before in a game? I mean come'on, if you're going to take the game into all seriousness which many people want to do, you must take ALL of the game into seriousness. Now in any game where you can kill, you too are hunted after. The consequence is either Life(in jail) or Death. Both options aren't anything I'd go for.

If you play a First Person Shooter, sure you'll get a few kills, but sooner or later you die, even if you were playing the game perfectly.. simply because someone was playing it better than you. I've always figured that if I took video games as real, that the first thing I'd take back with me was the fact that death always occurs, and if it doesn't.. I'm always running knowing that death is chasing me. Yes, this means I play violent games.. yet what I get from it is that violence is worth shit when you get caught and you WILL get caught... once you do the game is over.

Life has no Save Points... if you don't know that.... well lets just say Video Games aren't the real issue.

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sonofsamedi

Funny stuff. I still don't get why videogames are the biggest target for this kind of crap. It's pretty shortsighted to say that Videogames impart bad morals and promote an unhealthy view of reality.

It's a form of entertainment. Games aren't "How-to" guides on how to kill people. Hell, we all know, that's what Tv is for!

Tv.. Training brainwashed assassins since 1963!

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Jam

I never knew shooting someone would kill them until I played video games, because that sort of thing doesnt happen on the news... or in movies or tv... only video games

whocarz

Shit, since I play so much Medieval Total War, I guess I have impulses to run a country in 1100s Europe, and command armies of knights and archers. Seriously, politicians have been on this anti-video game kick for years now, starting with Sen. Lieberman. Personally, I'm not too worried about some pasty nerd coming to get me.

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SecretMethod70

Does media have a negative impact on people? Sure. Do people have aggressive thoughts WHILE playing aggressive games? Most likely. But do playing video games cause people to be more aggressive - especially to the point of being more capable of killing - in real life, after playing? Undoubtedly, no.

Yes, there is lots of 'evidence' that video games can temporarily bring out aggressive tendancies in people. The first thing to keep in mind when looking at the conclusions based on the 'evidence' is that 100 years ago there was also scientific and medical 'evidence' that blacks were inferior to whites, and that women were less capable than men. Scientific fact can be utilized and twisted for any number of conlusions.

The second thing to keep in mind is the real life evidence, outside of scientific studies. The game DOOM came out in 1994. It is now a decade later, and unless I've missed something the world isn't any crazier of a place because of people who played that game. I played it, and I don't have a rocket launcher sitting around in my room, that's for sure. Nor does anyone I know who played it - and I was 11 years old when I played it! Mortal Kombat came out in 1992. It was a favorite target at the time because of all the blood and gore. I played that one too, as did many people. In the past 12 years, I have not heard of a surge in people attempting to rip the spines out of others. Grand Theft Auto III - a more recent game of controversy - has already been cited. The only spike in people getting hit by cars that I've noticed on the news is from old people and farmer's markets.

No doubt, video games - and more importantly media in general - can have an impact in how desensitized one is to violence. Perhaps people aren't as bothered when they hear about death on the news. Perhaps that's why movies must be more and more graphic to acheive the same "shock" effect.

However, there is a big difference between being desensitized and being capable to do something that is, for all intents and purposes, hard-wired into our brains as wrong. Those who do not have a natural aversion to murder and such did not become that way because they played video games. First off, study after study has shown that the majority of a person's personality - the core of it, where one's respect for life would fit in - is developed by the age of 3. If a person has no natural aversion to real life murder, it is likely because they were denied human love in the early years in some way or another. It could be mental illness as well. It could also be constant real life attacks on self-esteem, harboring self-loathing and anger. One thing it most certainly is not though is video game playing.

Correlation between violent media and desensitization to violence? Yes. Cause and effect between violent video games and violent crime? No.

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ARTelevision

I understand the reasons for the very impassioned defense of popular forms of entertainment. I don't think, however, that going as far as the research has required in admitting the way that violent media affects our population is the sort of position that reflects much interest in social responsibility.

Please everyone, continue to play the video games that are apparently so crucially an important part of our entertainment culture. However it is not terribly convincing to reflect positions that amount to the notion that it is an acceptible thing to enthusiastically promote and defend something which obviously is not a good thing for millions of young people who are far less capable of steeling themselves to its deleterious effects than proponents would like to believe. Admitting to the overwhelming message of research that violent media is a part of the problem of desensitization, alienation, and confusion experienced by youth and the weak people in our society - of which there are millions - is not a resounding endorsement, is it?

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