Stephen Hawking: You ARE the Weakest Link! - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

SecretMethod70 · 07-15-2004, 01:57 PM

Hehe, looks like Stephen Hawking and (probably) Kip Thorne are getting ready to concede a bet they made with physicist John Preskill. See, the three of them made a bet nearly 30 years ago that black holes destroy information, never to be recovered - the winner gets an encyclopedia. Well, with the relatively recent discoveries of quantum physics this created a bit of a paradox. The belief that black holes permanently destroy data, which Hawking and Thorne held on to, went against the rules of quantum physics! Well, now it appears as though Hawking himself has proven his theory wrong and has found an explanation as to why black holes do not permanently destroy information. Here's the article - the last paragraph is my favorite

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996151

Quote:

Hawking cracks black hole paradox

19:00 14 July 04

Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition. Subscribe and get 4 free issues.

After nearly 30 years of arguing that a black hole destroys everything that falls into it, Stephen Hawking is saying he was wrong. It seems that black holes may after all allow information within them to escape. Hawking will present his latest finding at a conference in Ireland next week.

The about-turn might cost Hawking, a physicist at the University of Cambridge, an encyclopaedia because of a bet he made in 1997. More importantly, it might solve one of the long-standing puzzles in modern physics, known as the black hole information paradox.

It was Hawking's own work that created the paradox. In 1976, he calculated that once a black hole forms, it starts losing mass by radiating energy. This "Hawking radiation" contains no information about the matter inside the black hole and once the black hole evaporates, all information is lost.

But this conflicts with the laws of quantum physics, which say that such information can never be completely wiped out. Hawking's argument was that the intense gravitational fields of black holes somehow unravel the laws of quantum physics.

Other physicists have tried to chip away at this paradox. Earlier in 2004, Samir Mathur of Ohio State University in Columbus and his colleagues showed that if a black hole is modelled according to string theory - in which the universe is made of tiny, vibrating strings rather than point-like particles - then the black hole becomes a giant tangle of strings. And the Hawking radiation emitted by this "fuzzball" does contain information about the insides of a black hole (New Scientist print edition, 13 March).

Big reputation

Now, it seems that Hawking too has an answer to the conundrum and the physics community is abuzz with the news. Hawking requested at the last minute that he be allowed to present his findings at the 17th International Conference on General Relativity and Gravitation in Dublin, Ireland.

"He sent a note saying 'I have solved the black hole information paradox and I want to talk about it'," says Curt Cutler, a physicist at the Albert Einstein Institute in Golm, Germany, who is chairing the conference's scientific committee. "I haven't seen a preprint [of the paper]. To be quite honest, I went on Hawking's reputation."

Though Hawking has not yet revealed the detailed maths behind his finding, sketchy details have emerged from a seminar Hawking gave at Cambridge. According to Cambridge colleague Gary Gibbons, an expert on the physics of black holes who was at the seminar, Hawking's black holes, unlike classic black holes, do not have a well-defined event horizon that hides everything within them from the outside world.

In essence, his new black holes now never quite become the kind that gobble up everything. Instead, they keep emitting radiation for a long time, and eventually open up to reveal the information within. "It's possible that what he presented in the seminar is a solution," says Gibbons. "But I think you have to say the jury is still out."

Forever hidden

At the conference, Hawking will have an hour on 21 July to make his case. If he succeeds, then, ironically, he will lose a bet that he and theoretical physicist Kip Thorne of the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) in Pasadena made with John Preskill, also of Caltech.

They argued that "information swallowed by a black hole is forever hidden, and can never be revealed".

"Since Stephen has changed his view and now believes that black holes do not destroy information, I expect him [and Kip] to concede the bet," Preskill told New Scientist. The duo are expected to present Preskill with an encyclopaedia of his choice "from which information can be recovered at will".

Jenny Hogan

degrawj · 07-15-2004, 02:30 PM

i remember hearing about this bet when i read one of Hawkings books. now, i don't claim to know much about quantum physics, so i really have no way to make an educated guess in order to take a stance on that bet, but it didn't make any sense to me how a black whole could "destroy" information. just because everything is crushed into a singularity doesn't mean it can't have it's original value. the only problem is finding that value. black holes DO give off radiation, meaning that if a black hole was left alone without anything feeding it, it would eventually shrink and lose all its mass, although this would take a hell of a long time. so black holes are spewing off information right now. whether or not it's in the same order as when it went in is another story that maybe Hawking can help answer.

Cynthetiq · 07-15-2004, 09:15 PM

i thought the bet was a penthouse subscription...

SecretMethod70 · 07-15-2004, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by degrawj
i remember hearing about this bet when i read one of Hawkings books. now, i don't claim to know much about quantum physics, so i really have no way to make an educated guess in order to take a stance on that bet, but it didn't make any sense to me how a black whole could "destroy" information. just because everything is crushed into a singularity doesn't mean it can't have it's original value. the only problem is finding that value. black holes DO give off radiation, meaning that if a black hole was left alone without anything feeding it, it would eventually shrink and lose all its mass, although this would take a hell of a long time. so black holes are spewing off information right now. whether or not it's in the same order as when it went in is another story that maybe Hawking can help answer.

Well, Hawking made the bet planning to lose. He has a tendancy to bet against what he's working to prove. If he proves it, he proves yet another thing. If he proves himself wrong, he at least gets something out of it

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
i thought the bet was a penthouse subscription...

You're thinking of the bet between Hawking and Thorne in which they WEREN'T obetting on the same side. If Thorne won, he got a Penthouse subscription. If Hawking won, he got a Private Eyes subscription.

Details of the porn mag bet are here: http://www.kent.k12.wa.us/staff/trob...idyouknow.html

User Name · 07-15-2004, 10:31 PM

The site showed Steven Hawking's signature, even though he is a quadriplegic.

Journeyman · 07-15-2004, 10:54 PM

Looks more like someone labeled Stephen's thumbprint.
Plus, he wasn't always a quadriplegic. I think it's multiple sclerosis that started to disable him during his grad school years.

jwoody · 07-16-2004, 12:25 AM

Stephen Hawking developed Motor Neurone Disease when he was 21.

I learned that from TV.

Antikarma · 07-16-2004, 05:09 AM

I TOLD everyone I was smarter than Steven Hawkin.

Told ya so.

07-15-2004, 09:15 PM	#3 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	i thought the bet was a penthouse subscription... __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

07-16-2004, 05:09 AM	#8 (permalink)
Antikarma Psycho Location: Yellowknife, NWT	I TOLD everyone I was smarter than Steven Hawkin. Told ya so. __________________ "Whoever you are, go out into the evening, leaving your room, of which you know each bit; your house is the last before the infinite, whoever you are."

07-15-2004, 02:30 PM	#2 (permalink)
degrawj I'm still waiting... Location: West Linn, OR	i remember hearing about this bet when i read one of Hawkings books. now, i don't claim to know much about quantum physics, so i really have no way to make an educated guess in order to take a stance on that bet, but it didn't make any sense to me how a black whole could "destroy" information. just because everything is crushed into a singularity doesn't mean it can't have it's original value. the only problem is finding that value. black holes DO give off radiation, meaning that if a black hole was left alone without anything feeding it, it would eventually shrink and lose all its mass, although this would take a hell of a long time. so black holes are spewing off information right now. whether or not it's in the same order as when it went in is another story that maybe Hawking can help answer.

07-15-2004, 10:31 PM	#5 (permalink)
User Name Banned Location: Urf	The site showed Steven Hawking's signature, even though he is a quadriplegic.

07-15-2004, 10:54 PM	#6 (permalink)
Journeyman Like John Goodman, but not. Location: SFBA, California	Looks more like someone labeled Stephen's thumbprint. Plus, he wasn't always a quadriplegic. I think it's multiple sclerosis that started to disable him during his grad school years.

07-16-2004, 12:25 AM	#7 (permalink)
jwoody Shackle Me Not Location: Newcastle - England.	Stephen Hawking developed Motor Neurone Disease when he was 21. I learned that from TV.