kurty[B]

I had an interesting conversation with a social worker and a pharmaceutical company purchaser on whether Bi-Polar and other forms of depression is something people are born with, or something people develop from their social upbringing.

I feel certain forms of depression like Manic Depression can be something someone has from birth, but more so that it really develops itself in the person from their experiences. I don't necessarily think it's something that as soon as your child is born you can perform tests to find out if they'll be Bi-polar or not, I think that do to certain experiences and how one reacts to them that causes the brain to develop a certain way causing the "disease".

What are your takes on how these diseases come about in people?

All aside, we all agreed that doctors today are quick to prescribe medication for a "disease" that they diagnose a person with when medication is not really the necessary answer. Anyone feel otherwise?

Manic_Skafe

I think we're all susceptible to those disorders. All it takes are the right circumstances and conditions.

I'll be in school to become a psychiatrist shortly and like you, I believe that medicinal treatment should be used only as a last resort.

In people around me and even in my own family, I've seen people who should have had some sort of therapy where they got to the root of their problem instead of living their lives as the side effect of a drug and not knowing who they are or could've been with some actual help.

But these are all just ideas and can't be supported with very many facts as I haven't looked deep enough into the study of mental illness.

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World's King

This is a strange subject, you fuckin' CUNT...


I've dealt with people that have been struggling with depression for most of my life. Mainly me. I wish I would just die. I've learned how to somewhat control onslaughts of depression by focusing myself on something positive. Except after my girlfriend broke up with me. She was a stupid whore that tore my heart out and I will never love again. I wanna die... why won't God take me away.

There are medications that help but I've never been big on outside help. Like I said before, It's all in how you deal with it. I've taken to crying and drinking and smoking a lot. Maybe cutting myself in hopes I don't wake up...


This World is better off with out me... fuckin' CUNT.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

lurkette

Born with or developed? Yes and yes.

It's not a simple equation - there are people who are born with different levels of genetic predisposition to bipolar and other disorders, but to have those genes "activated" requires certain experiences. So you might have someone with a very heavily loaded genotype, and no matter what their experiences, they're highly likely to develop a disorder. But you might have someone with a moderate genetic predisposition go through the same experiences as the first guy and not develop a disorder. It's not an X+Y=Z equation, it's an IF X AND Y BUT NOT Z AND A, THEN Disorder.

Most mental disorders are "comorbid" - that is, they happen with other disorders. It's rare to find clinical depression without some form of anxiety occurring with it. The DSM (diagnostic manual of psychiatrists) changes periodically, and certain diagnostic criteria fade in or out depending on the state of current research, the cultural milieu (homosexuality used to be classified as a disorder), and the political scene (big push from parents to have autism and ADHD classified in certain ways, big push from mental health advocates to have depression classified a certain way, etc.) Because psychiatry is a shifting field and a fuzzy science, medicating disorders is a tricky business. Some physicians are badly trained and throw pills at things as a first resort. I think medication can be a valuable tool in treating mental illness (and I've been on Paxil for more than a year now) but I think it ought to be temporary whenever possible, and just one tool in a more holistic arsenal. Too often people with mild disorders just take the pills without working on the underlying cognitive and emotional issues, and if you stop taking the pills the symptoms (surprise!) come back. Now, that said, there are some cases where there really is a permanent chemical imbalance that may need to be treated permanently with meds. Nobody should be judged for doing the best they can to stay healthy.

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- Anatole France

MSD

There is a natural predisposition for some, and others are born with it. A friend of mine developed bi-polar disorder after starting serious drug use, and I suspect that something he used pulled him from depression to manic-depression. I have no doubt that drug use triggered the more severe depression.

present_future

I'm not sure I believe that people are born with these disorders or not, but I think that certain people are more likely to develop them. A person's surroundings and atmosphere can have a lot to do with these disorders, and the right combination of these factors could cause anyone to become depressed or bi-polar.

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kurty[B]

I generally do not think marijuana is something that can be abused unless in extremes (ie, allowing it to envelope your life, and be everything you are about). I know someone who's diagnosed bi-polar and is on lithium, and wonder what the complications of the amount of pot he smokes (extreme) and the lithium, to me it almost seems to be a much worse combination than any good.

Do you think that drugs, certain experiences on drugs can lead to brain chemical imbalances that cause such depression? I tend to lean towards this, I know a few people who have abused various substances to the extreme and then even if they still do it, or have even quit, they just always seem down and out. I know others that got extremely depressed and were diagnosed as depressed and given prescriptions, and they decided to come clean, drop everything, and seem to be much better off.

Sometimes I wonder if the person I mentioned above simply quit, and cleaned up that he might not even need lithium, but I know in his mind doing such a thing is not even an option.

Sorry for bringing up a touchy subject King, just after seeing two completely different views on this subject I became extremely intriqued and have wanted to attempt to understand it better. I've read a few different studies since, and depending on what type of degree the people had depends on how the study results turned out (whether they claim it's genetic or cause by social circumstances).

Anyone know of any good books (one opinion or the other) that delve into the subject further?

zfleebin

I have been waiting to see where this went before I chimed in because I often wonder what people know about bipolar disorder. When I was younger I was diagnosed as bipolar and went through countless medications and counselors only to find out that I only had two choices. One was to take lithium all the time and be void of all emotions. The other was to fight the disease and learn to control impulses I cant even begin to describe. Needless to say, I took the hard path and have fought like crazy to get where I am at. Now, I study mental disorders on my path towards becoming a psychologist. Lurkette and others are right when they say there is no single cause for manic depression. There is a genetic and an environmental component to bipolar disorder but research hasn't set any clear boundaries yet. If you want a decent read on manic deppression you can check out this link (it is way too long to post) http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bipolarresfact.cfm

I do want to clear one thing up. Drugs do not cause manic deppression. People who have manic deppression, on the other hand, are more likely to use drugs than those who do not. For me, drugs (pot, painkillers, alcohol) were very helpful because they brought me down from manic episodes that always got me in trouble. Pot was probably the most helpful because it slowed down the thoughts that spun around in my head and let me sleep. As I started to understand my mind better, I was able to step away from the drugs and deal with my mania intelligently. I cant stress enough how hard it is/was to get where I am. So, please take it easy on people that have this disorder.
Now that I have dropped all my excess baggage on you guys I have one tip for dealing with someone in a manic episode: DO NOT LET THEM DRIVE.

MSD

Now I'm going to have to dig up the study so I don't sound like I'm just spouting hot air, but there has been a correlation shown between pot use and, specifically, the subsequent development of mani-depression in those with a genetic predisposition.

Another issue is that most legal and illegal drugs will negatively interact wtih medications intended to treat manic depression/bi-polar disorder, schizophrenia, and other mental illnesses.

World's King

I'm sad that no one quoted me and either said it was fuuny or called me an ass.

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zfleebin

Mrselfdestruct: I have seen those studies and they arent exactly well thought out. In the case of pot, I think you can see how the increased rate of drug use by people with bipolar disorder would present a confounding variable that limits the internal validity of any drug study done on participants with bipolar disorder. You also have to take into account the fact that the studies were correlations (no causation) and dealt with a very specific population. Putting all those factors together destroys any internal validity they had. I will agree with the drugs interacting though, since I have never tripped as hard as I used to on lithium and aderol.
Mr King: I will take the liberty of calling you a royal fucking ass, as long as it makes you feel better.

lordjeebus

When one identical twin is bipolar, the chance that the other also has the condition is 60%. For fraternal twins, this chance is only 10%.

The implication is that this disorder has a stronger genetic component than most. My understanding is that non-drug-based therapies are also less effective for bipolar disorder than other psychological problems, perhaps because of a large biological component in its etiology.

shakran

drug therapy for bi-polar is amazing. Lithium has an almost 100% success rate, with few (usually none) side effects. If you HAVE to have a serious mental disorder, bi-polar is the one to get.

Now, since drug therapy works nearly perfectly with nearly everyone, that points to a biological cause, not a cognitive cause. I say you're born with it.

kurty[B]

I think this depends on your opinion of success, and then also comes the question of what about those people diagnosed, but without the monetary supply or insurance to cover the cost of the drugs that they have to be permanently on? In my opinion I don't find "void of all emotions" a real success, seems like living life like a zombie.

zfleebin I'm glad you fought and have done well with going the hard route. I wish more people would pursue such a route, not really understanding the disease I don't really know what people go through with it, but to me it seems like the easy way out is what people tend to resort to in every situation they are put in nowadays.

shakran

Except that zfleebin's experience is not at all typical. Lithium is not listed as having the side effect of flattening your emotions. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that his dosage was wrong - you have to work dilligently for a while at first to get the dosage just right or it has too much of an effect- sounds to me like that's what happened.

The most common side effects for lithium are blurred vision, dry mouth, small hand tremors, frequent urination, and mild nausea.

Long term side effects involve weight gain and hypothyroidism, but that's fairly rare.