The_wall

I wasn't sure if this was a political thread or not, so I put it here.

Anyways I just read a long thread on another forum about a kid who burned a flag for a school project. I was suprised how upset people got about it, they were saying things like "the kid who burned the flag should die a slow and horrible death".

If you ask, me this is why some people are burning flags in the first place. Our country seem so barbaric at times, we have such violent attitudes towards things.

Now its cool with me if the flag represents everything you love about this country and you don't want to burn flags. Personally I don't burn flags because if I'm gonna burn something its gonna do something cool like melt or send balls of fire in the air.

The US flag doesn't represent much to me, its just a piece of cloth which is used to show that we are infact living in USA. If the flag did have symbolic meaning to me, it would probably represent the angry conservatives who's heads explode when they see a flag burning, aka people I dislike. (No I don't hate conservatives I just dislike far right conservatives political way of thinking)

I don't think a flag can represent a nation. The people, the lifestyle, the landscape, things like this is what represents a country. So I just don't see why people get so up in arms about someone burning a flag. If anything, I think the fact that you can burn a flag legally here shows just how great this country can be.

You're thoughts? I hope this generates some replies, this is my first post where I'm trying to incite a meaningful converstaion

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ARTelevision

It makes sense to be aware of other people's sensitivities and what sorts of things upset them. Some symbols have very powerful emotional significance.

Even better is to think about why others have these feelings. Some families have lost near and dear loved ones to the nation's armed services, for example. Some people are very patriotic.

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DelayedReaction

What was the school project?

I'm much more offended when people disrespect the flag in the guise of patriotism. For example, at the same SuperBowl where Janet Jackson had her "wardrobe malfunction," Kid Rock was performing (I use the term loosely) "American Badass." He walked out on stage wearing a flag (a hole had been cut through the center of it), and in the middle of the performance rips the flag off and tosses it to the ground. It ends up being scrunched up next to the drummer. The worse part is that right as he tosses off the flag, two pretty girls walk up waving their own flags on a pole in a show of "patriotism." You can see the flags being waved and the discarded flag in the corner in the same shot.

This hypocrisy disgusts me. Their guise of patriotism is merely a superficial mask that covers the true motive of commercialism. It demonstrates a remarkable lack of respect for our flag, and subsequently a lack of respect for our country.

Flag burning is an act of defiance; a formal declaration that you are displeased. It is serious, and it is effective. On the other hand, disrespecting the flag in the guise of patriotism is truly offensive.

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apeman

good topic!

certainly the UKs flag, the Union Jack, has come to be associated with right-wingers, which I think has devalued it. I agree with a couple of the comments above - lots of people don't mind if you honestly object to something your country is doing, but e.g. wearing Union Jack underclothes to appear patriotic when you really only love money is stupid and offensive.

personally I wouldn't care if someone burned a British flag or a Welsh flag in front of me. If they did it in front of a veteran of WWII and it upset them, then I'd get upset. I thought the whole point of western democracy was that we had free speech, and a country as powerful as America, or even UK, should be able to cope with a few people expressing dissent like this...

... shouldn't they?

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PredeconInferno

I think you should keep in mind, too, that the flag may have an entirely different meaning for someone who has served in the military.

I know that my grandfather got very upset when he witnessed the mistreatment of the U.S. flag (he was a Korean War veteran).

I agree with ART about how you need to be aware of other people's sensitivities and why.

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Phaenx

Just because something doesn't bother you doesn't mean you should do it. I can say the word "fag" all day long but it doesn't mean I should go out and do it to piss people off.

And that's what you're doing by burning a flag. Don't tell me you're demonstrating your freedoms, you're trying to piss someone off.

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greytone

I am one of those flag waving conservatives that thinks the greatest danger to the flag would be an amendment to ban flag burning.

After all, a flag is a symbol of our nation; not only the government, but also our people and more importantly, the philosophy that lead to our constitution. A worn flag should be burned when it will no longer be used. Therefore, what bothers people about flag burning is the intention of the burner. That is, the statement they are making. If the US flag has to be protected by an amendment banning political dissent, then it no longer has the same meaning to me.

That being said, flag burning is a cheap and offensive stunt practiced only by those intellectually incapable of participating in any meaningful discourse. No response is deserved or appropriate.

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H12

I'm personally offended by flag-burning due to the respect I have for our nation and my family (both of my grandfathers were in wars, and my brother is in the Navy), but I feel like banning flag-burning will only make flag-burning more signifigant when it happens; I don't believe that flag-burning should be given the pleasure of being banned.

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maleficent

One of my favorite really bad movies, is The American President, written by Aaron Sorkin (same guy responsible for The West Wing)

Towards the end of the movie, Michael Douglas, as the president, delivers a rather heated speech defending the ACLU and flag burning. Up until I saw that movie, I would have advocated the death penalty for people who burned the flag (I come from a real strong military family)

The quote:
Burning the flag in protest of something, I can understand as a first amendment expression, however, what Kid Rock did during the Super Bowl, was indefensible.

I'm unsure if it's hypocritical or not, but there are instances where buring the flag is, not neccarily acceptable, but I can understand the reasoning behind it. I get aggravated when I wander around my downtown, and see the businesses displaying the flag (whcih does my heart good) but the flags that are being displayed are torn, tattered, and shoudl be put to rest and replaced.

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Eugeni

Here in catalonia we want to become independent from Spain. So burning spanish flags is a patriotic act. But however a spanish patriotist will find it so unpatriotic. So it all depends on the point of view and on what people love and hate.

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Rodney

I can understand burning the flag would be offensive to many, a slap in the face. Yet the flag is simply a symbol of our country, not the thing itself.

To create, for example, a constitutional amendment to ban flag burning is to miss the point entirely. What makes this country great is that a person _can_ burn a flag in the service of free speech, not that he or she can't. Whether it is actually the right thing to do or not is a matter of personal judgment (subject to the conflicting judgment of others, as on this board), not of crime. If this country was actually so fragile that certain kinds of political theater could not be allowed, then we would be in deep trouble.

CrazySaturn

Burning a flag in protest of a specific, true, grievance, or burning to destroy a flag that has been soiled or is worn. Burning a flag because you don't like america and think it is wrong, or some other equalls uneducated excuse, deserves punishment. Not legal punishment however. Flag burning has always and should always be a form of protest for a strong grievance.

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NewBonk

I always attempt to treat the American Flag in a manner that I think a past or current member of the American armed forces would approve. The Stars & Stripes is a VERY important symbol to those that put their lives on the line to defend our freedoms. The least I can do it respect a symbol that represents the freedoms they are protecting.

So the flag doesn't mean anything to you? That's fine, but if you respect the people who have paid the ultimate sacrifice to defend the freedoms you enjoy, then treat the flag with respect.

It's the least you can do.

pocon1

I would not burn a flag, because I have no pressing need to. I will defend your right to burn a flag, if you can demonstrate why you think it is important. You better have a damn good reason.

waltert

flag burning...an interesting topic. I used to be opposed to it in its entirety, but have become more liberal. There's something unwholesome about the burning of a nylon flag...if you're going to do it, make sure its burn-friendly. (i bet someone could make a killing selling those to other counries). personally, the united states flag doesnt represent me, and as long as they bought the flag to burn, then I suppose its fine. if you're a religous person though, think about how you'd feel if someone burned your religous symbol in front of you.

fckm

People can be very attached to our symbols. Like _waltert_ said, if you are religious, imagine the emotions that would arise if someone burned a cross, or a bible, or a church. Human beings tend to attach a lot of emotional importance to symbols, and the American flag is probably the most recognized symbol of the United States. Heck, we even Pledge our Allegiance to the damn thing.

That being said, I think that the flag is a poor symbol and not deserving of its status. If anything should be a symbol of the United States, it should be the Constitution. Ultimately, it is the Constitution of the United States of America and the ideas contained within that represent what America truly is. It is our Constitution that makes America unique, and special.

Any TRUE, freedom loving, American, no matter where they were born, no matter how momentarily angry they are at the burning of the flag, will feel in their heart a pride and a joy for living in a country where such acts of protest are allowed.

And anyone who does decided to burn the flag in protest should realize that, in spite of everything they are protesting, they still have the right to free speech in this country.

To those out there who are part of our armed forces. As a citizen of these United States, I hoped that if/when you fight, you do not fight for our flag. I hope that you do not fight for our country. I hope, instead, that you fight for the ideas that the flag and the country are supposed to represent. So that even if the flag changes, or the country falls, those ideas of democracy, freedom, and justice will survive.

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saut

Interestingly enough, the only "correct" way to dispose of an old American flag is to cut it into strips, then burn it (in a respectful way, if there really is any respectful way to cut something into strips and burn it).

DelayedReaction

There is. It's all a matter of demonstrating respect; one of my fellow Eagle Scouts originally planned to do flag retirement as his Eagle Project.

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