zxello

LINKY

Ok, Found this link on fark.com and thought i'd share.

Now, I don't agree with what the man did in anyway, I think no matter if you 'LIKE' the President or not, if your American, you should support him. I am a patriot through and through, 100%. My father is in Kuwait right now with the Army and my brother is in Texas, training in the Air Force.

I give the same response to anyone that asks me my position on the President. I may not like the candidate during the presidential campaign, but for 1. I vote for the person I would most like to be there. 2. If you don't vote, you can't bitch. 3. As soon as a candidate is elected President, I support him 100%, and I would give my life to support the freedoms Americans enjoy and the idea.

To sum it up : I support the ideal, not the idol.

Well I'd like everyones opinion on this, what do you think should have been done, if anything? POST! DISCUSS!! ENJOY!

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Old signature just wasn't doing it for me anymore, so now I have this new one. It's equally as stupid but at least it looks really long. I'm probably just going to keep typing until I run out of things to babble about and see how many people actually read this. I once ran down a hill, fell down and hurt my elbow; my mom said I would be ok, she kissed it and made it all better. I've run out of things to say now, so if you have read this whole thing, congratulations you get a gold star!

Asuka{eve}

Why is dissent always crushed like this?

HunterDevourer

Separation of interests of general population with that of a smaller segment of the population is seen as threatening...or perhaps just irritating.

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Viva La Muerte

zxello

But in my opinion his sign is CLEARLY protected by the freedom of speech..... they wouldn't refuse a magazine/newspaper's right to print an article if it said FU GW

__________________
Old signature just wasn't doing it for me anymore, so now I have this new one. It's equally as stupid but at least it looks really long. I'm probably just going to keep typing until I run out of things to babble about and see how many people actually read this. I once ran down a hill, fell down and hurt my elbow; my mom said I would be ok, she kissed it and made it all better. I've run out of things to say now, so if you have read this whole thing, congratulations you get a gold star!

ophidiann

This is the type of stuff you see all the time in the news. I don't believe to be a patriot or to be a good American, you must agree with everything the President does or says. In fact, you can strongly disagree and be a very good American.

The sad thing here is that the guy is one of many who has voiced open opinion against this President and has been shut down. I know there are inappropriate times to have something up and what not... but I don't ever remember seeing as much crap being cut off as by this administration. It's in a way scary that while we claim to defend freedom abroad, that we don't protect those freedoms at home.

But yeah, I'm sure some people will see things like this as threatening to the current administration and claim that I don't either understand the context or I'm simply a liberal-America-hating bastard. In my opinion, every person that dislikes this administration should have the absolute power to put his or her middle finger into the air and shout profanities.

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Yes, I need help. No, I won't accept it.

zxello

I agree with you, to a point. I agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and can say whatever they want, I also might disagree with some / all / much of what Bush says, but I will _NOT_ riot, picket, protest a war that is going on just cause I think its bad, I think its total bullshit. I just have to say to the people that do protest the war and other things of the sort; these soldiers, be it American or other, are doing their job, would you appreciate it if I got a mob together to protest your work?

.....i've lost my train of thought and will now end this session of 'Zxello on his soapbox'......

__________________
Old signature just wasn't doing it for me anymore, so now I have this new one. It's equally as stupid but at least it looks really long. I'm probably just going to keep typing until I run out of things to babble about and see how many people actually read this. I once ran down a hill, fell down and hurt my elbow; my mom said I would be ok, she kissed it and made it all better. I've run out of things to say now, so if you have read this whole thing, congratulations you get a gold star!

irseg

I am so fucking sick of immature liberals screaming their heads off about GWB. EVERYTHING is somehow his fault. If their car doesn't start or if they go to a restaurant and the food is cold, they somehow find a way to blame it on Bush. It's pathetic and stupid.

That said, I fully support that guy's right to carry that sign. The police have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to issue him a citation. I could somewhat understand if it spelled out "FUCK YOU GEORGE BUSH", but it didn't.

I also strongly disagree with the idea that whoever happens to be president is to automatically be supported and agreed with. We've lost countless soldiers defending ourselves from and freeing citizens of countries where the leaders were to be followed and supported at all costs. They're called dictatorships.

America was founded upon the basis that individual freedom reigns supreme. Not being forced to piss away a third or more of your hard earned income to blow on people who don't feel like working. And certainly not mindlessly following whatever the government says. Why doesn't anybody understand this anymore??

Hrothgar

Big Brother is watching. Damn now I'm scared of the Thought Police coming to my house now that i wrote this.

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The fortunes of war favored Hrothgar.

drawerfixer

I consider it extremely unpatriotic to not riot/protest/picket a war that I feel is unjust or total bullshit.

Jaca

Question Authority

I used to have a bumper sticker on my car that said this. I can't tell you how many times I got pulled over for some bs reason, when I knew it was the message I was giving.

I eventually got rid of the bumpersticker, because it became an inconvenience. That doesn't mean I forget it's principal.

The bottom line, regardless of my (or anyone's) personal feelings towards what the citizen did or his opinion, he is a citizen, and he's entitled to the right of freedom of (edit: speech) expression. He also needs to keep fighting the case. If a legal precedent is set against him, there's no telling where it might stop.

Thought police, mm hmm

phredgreen

i'm going to agree with drawerfixer and disagree with zxello.

the united states was founded on a number of principles. you can find all of those listed in the bill of rights and the constitution. as far as anything goes, regardless of your political/ideological affiliations, if you want to talk about patriotism, refer to those documents and make your desicions.

that being said, the united states was founded on the dissent of a few people who absolutely could not live with their current regime any more. they felt opressed because that monarchy was pressing their political, ideological, and religious beleifes on others who did not feel it was necessary to follow, but would be severely punished if they did not obey. they protested, they dissented, and they created one of the most powerful unions in the world.

i truly feel that the spirit that this country was created in is being squashed by current political nonsense. the bill of rights and the constitution have laid out the recipe for success... a recipe that did fine for more than 150 years, but the current trend of circumventing it for other goals is what will eventually be the downfall of the most powerful nation on earth.

they were wrong to arrest that man. plain and simple. his right to speak his mind and his right to assemble with others of the same mind were violated.

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My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
- Thomas Paine

Cynthetiq

and lets see how long it takes the ACLU to come to his aid.

I'm going to say they aren't.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

lurkette

I doubt they'll have to - this is such a no-brainer, and has attracted such publicity, that I'll bet they drop the charges, or it gets thrown out. If the guy was breaking an ordinance against signage or something, that's one thing, but arguing that displaying a political opinion amounts to "disorderly conduct" is such a head-up-the-ass argument that I can't imagine it'll hold up.

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Phaenx

After a brisk look through this sites politics forum I can confirm that it's not.

If there is a problem, and I don't think there is, I'd ask the cops themselves. I don't think Bush was in the police HQ going "HE HAS A SIGN! GUARDS! TAKE HIM TO THE SNAKE PITS!!"

The guy could have expressed himself a bit more un-dumbassedly as well. FU is kind of vague. I suggest "Hey, I disagree with your policies." next time.

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

final_identity

"sick of immature liberals" ... remember the Clinton-bashing? Someone being told his opinion isn't welcome, is someone who doesn't live in America, as far as I'm concerned. If the President were not so clueless, inept, moronic, illegal, lying, stealing, and cheating, people wouldn't complain as much. Don't shoot the messenger, just because you don't like the message. And realize, probably at least one good reason it bothers you so much, is that it hits so close to the truth. If he were self-evidently a genius with a strong grasp on foreign policy and national security, the complaints would just be laughable. They aren't. They're RIGHT.

But ...

The man's sign was an irresponsible mode of political non-violent protest. The irresponsibility disturbs me -- using curse-words and other "tpically objectionable" things, I can't support. If you have a legitimate complaint, state it legitimately. So, he could be silenced on those grounds, and everything got confused and mixed up because of that. His irrationality was the problem.

But the idea that dissent, in general, is kept away from this President in a way that is unprecedented in American history means, to me, the guy was right. We are losing, slowly but surely, civil rights such as protest and free expression. To state, "You can't oppose the War in Iraq because that means you don't support the President" is quite common now. It's factually and legally totally wrong, but it is heard often anyway. Scary.

And why does the President need so much "support" anyway? I mean, what, he's sensitive and doesn't want to have to go to bed without his supper? He might cry and feel bad about himself? He gets my "support" if he does the INTELLIGENT, or RIGHT thing. He doesn't when he fails. Period.

Unfortunately, First Amendment advocates more often than not have to come to the aid of lunatics. To defend the cause, we must use distasteful examples as our test cases.

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The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. Friedrich Nietzsche

shakran

Well to be blunt I think that sentiment is a load of crap. I find it amazing that we live in a country that was founded BECAUSE our forefathers wanted us to be able to protest and change our government, and now that people ARE protesting it, they're told they're wrong to do so. Getting elected president is not and should not be carte blanche to do anything you want with NO opposition from anyone. That's not only absurd, it's a very dangerous way to think.


In that case, welcome to the ranks of the American Sheep. People who are protesting the war are NOT protesting the soldiers - that's Republican propaganda that's been spread around to try and quell the protests. We are protesting the war itself. How can it be anti-soldier to want to bring the soldiers home where they are safe?

If I were doing something that I was ordered to do and the order was immoral, I would certainly hope my fellow countrymen would protest the order. If enough people protested it, those who gave the order might just be forced to rescind it so I could go home and stop being forced to do those immoral things.

phredgreen

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My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
- Thomas Paine

tisonlyi

"thought children might have seen it..."

Really?

If the kid's clever enough to decipher that acronym, then he's damn smart enough to understand that people have differing views and sometimes air them in 'harsh' language.

Fine the man?

Give him a medal, more like...

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"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

kurty[B]

Whoops, hope I don't citated for my sign with George's face and a "does-not-equals" sign and a picture of Jesus. Man, that pisses off people in this mostly christian-conservative town.

felixn

Here is a Teddy Roosevelt quote I picked up on Andrew Sullivan's blog. Roosevelt considered criticism to be one's patriotic duty. This administration clearly takes a different position.

"[I]t is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about [the President's] acts... To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else." - Teddy Roosevelt, Kansas City Star, May 7, 1918.

DelayedReaction

I feel that we have a responsibility as citizens to ensure that our voices are heard, and that our leadership knows our opinions on their actions. To blindly follow and "support" someone whose actions you oppose is hypocritical.

The protestor should not have been charged, as the sign was not grossly offensive. Written in poor taste, yes. But harmful to children? No.

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If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

cameroncrazy822

Any man who is anti-"bush" should be fined! LOL

Pragma

Look, the problem in this situation is with the police, not Bush. The police officers told the guy to change the sign, then the police officers gave him a citation. I'm sure that Bush had no idea what was going on there at all. When this all gets sorted out, the guy isn't going to have to pay the citation or get thrown into jail, the police are going to drop it because he wasn't doing anything wrong.

They overreacted, they made a mistake, and a lot of people are making a much bigger deal out of it than it's worth.

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Eat antimatter, Posleen-boy!

final_identity

I think the guy's sign was overly inflammatory, but not necessarily illegal. But I also think the guy's refusal to follow the orders of a police officer is probably a clear violation of some "riot act" type law somehow, and so he'll get some kind of slap on the wrist for that.

Doesn't change the fact that the officers probably overstepped their bounds, as is generally the case with the morons who sign up for lives of bashing in heads only to find, much to their chagrin, they have to fill out a lot of paperwork and wear starched outfits and only very seldom get to be aggressive and brutish and moronic.

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The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. Friedrich Nietzsche

Astrocloud

New Story; New Sign



Doug Moe: Anti-Bush sign a theft victim

By Doug Moe
May 18, 2004

THIS TIME, it wasn't the city of Madison making Tom Link take down his sign.

Actually, this time around, no one made Link take down his 34-square-foot sign with the unambiguous slogan "BUSH LIES." Thursday night, it was stolen.

"It had to be somebody with a pretty good extension ladder," Link was saying Monday. And more than likely somebody with a more favorable view of President George W. Bush.

Back in February, Link had hung his sign on the Bellevue Apartments, a building he owns on East Wilson Street.

The sign was actually Link's second attempt at political commentary by sign. Last year, he put up a banner with the phrase "No Bush Wars" on the Bellevue. That one hadn't been up long before Link got a letter from city of Madison officials saying he was in violation of code and threatening him with a $500-a-day fine. The code states that such a sign can be no more than 15 feet off the ground and no more than 32 square feet.

Link and his attorney entered into negotiations with the city - and the sign stayed up 56 days - but eventually Link took it down and paid a fine of $126.

His new sign conformed to the code - well, close enough - but now it is gone. Link has no suspects and says that other than one anonymous letter, all reaction to the sign had been positive. I asked if he was going to replace it, and if so, what would the new sign say?

"Oh, I'll replace it," Link said. "I was hoping you could give me an idea."

I need only remind Link of the departed and still-mourned "Sloganator," the brainchild of the Bush-Cheney campaign that allowed visitors to the campaign Web site to print out a campaign poster that said Bush-Cheney '04, with room above for you to create your own slogan. Visitors to a slightly less reverent site, wonkette.com, gleefully reported printing out dozens of posters like: "Read My Lips. No New Jobs: Bush-Cheney '04" and "Putting the Fun Back Into Fundamentalism: Bush-Cheney '04."

While the Bush campaign soon dismantled the Sloganator, the slogans live on. Might not one work on a sign? ...

http://www.madison.com/captimes/news/moe2/74512.php

grumpyolddude

Bill of Rights
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


PERIOD. The authorities in Platteville, Wisconsin need to be educated.

And I hope that Tom Link's neighbors lend him a hand at replacing his sign.

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"Regret can be a harder pill to swallow than failure .With failure you at least know you gave it a chance..." David Howard

MSD

Am I not a patriot if I love my country enough to want to see the man who I feel is bringing it down impeached, removed from offfice, and imprisoned for his crimes? I'd give my life to support our freedoms and ideals, including the freedom to not blindly support whoever gets voted in/placed in office.

rsl12

Isn't that funny? What if people had said, 'I think no matter what you think of King George, you should support him, because you are an inhabitant of an English colony."

how do you expect people to run opposition campaigns then??

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oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

analog

Well said.

You're kidding, right? Seriously, that's so backward-thinking it hurts me.

This country was founded on the idea that the people rule, not the government. The fucking government sticks it nose into everything, and it's disgusting the extent to which they will go for their own agendas.

Also, I heard GWBush kills puppies for fun, and slingshots kittens into the ocean, where they drown.

mr sticky

That really does say it all...

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The sad thing is... as you get older you come to realize that you don't so much pilot your life, as you just try to hold on, in a screaming, defiant ball of white-knuckle anxious fury

basmoq

I say he should get his sign back, and the state should pay him the fine for violating his rights, but that's just my two cent's worth...

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"There's someone out there for everyone - even if you need
a pickaxe, a compass, and night goggles to find them."

Seer666

While I myself will not state an opinion on GW, I will say this. I joined the Navy so people can this can say whatever they want. That is what makes this country great. We have the RIGHT to speak out and tell the people in charge we hate their fucking guts, if that is how we feel. I read stuff like this and it makes me wonder what the fucking point of doing this job is.

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

rainheart

Actually I'm going to have to say that it's not republican propoganda but it's more like New World Order propoganda, collectivist propoganda, CFR propoganda, Bilderberg propoganda... you get my drift.

zxello

I think my comments are being misunderstood, im not saying support the man, support the idea, the presidency is an idea. I said I may not like the candidate but I support the president (not the man, the idea) i know its a bit difficult to understand, but that's just how I feel.

p.s. sorry for the shitty punctuation, its like 0130 here and im runnin off 3 hours of sleep + 1 slice of pizza in the past 24 hours

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Old signature just wasn't doing it for me anymore, so now I have this new one. It's equally as stupid but at least it looks really long. I'm probably just going to keep typing until I run out of things to babble about and see how many people actually read this. I once ran down a hill, fell down and hurt my elbow; my mom said I would be ok, she kissed it and made it all better. I've run out of things to say now, so if you have read this whole thing, congratulations you get a gold star!

rsl12

makes sense, i think. you're saying you support the process of democracy, and the fact that the president has been elected by the people.

But when someone insults the president, it's not the role of the president they are insulting, it's the man who is in the role.

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oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

final_identity

You salute the rank, not the person inside the uniform. The buck stops on the desk of the office that has been occupied by Lincoln and Roosevelt, not on the desk of the guy who won an election.

It's a noble theory. Works well in Kleinpolitik thinking. But for me, if the system itself includes (as ours does in the USA) the notion that dissent (of a polite kind) and dialectic lead to better decisions (hence, democracy), then the notion doesn't work as long as:

a) plenty of people agree that the leadership is sought by a man not an institution
b) the man seeking it does not command the respect (note: I did not say agreement, I said respect) of a sizable minority

In other words, there are plenty of folks out there (and I'm one of them) who think the system has broken down; who think that George W. Bush isn't part of the debate. To me, it's not a "political opinion" to agree or disagree with this particular President (and, to smaller degree, his party) since they are so busy SQUELCHING rather than participating in debate. It's not a "political opinion" to be discussed, it's a fact.

I personally feel I no longer live in a democracy. I've been to the social democracies of Europe and to the market democracies of southeast Asia and I'm damned sure, the conformist consumerist society of America is actually a very subtle form of Fascist state.

And if you think that thought (previous graf) then you can't "discuss" whether Bush is the right President, or his policies the right choices, from WITHIN a democratic framework. You can't go, "Umm, he got elected so we need to be helpful" or even "Umm, he didn't actually WIN that election, he LOST it and then cheated, so we need to work the system to BEAT him next time." Instead, all you can do is moan for the loss to humanity.

The American experiment, as envisioned by (for example) Jefferson, is over. Doesn't mean other good things can't come from the conformist consumerist undemocratic non-meritocracy thing we've created, and I love it for a lot of other reasons:

triumph of personal civil freedoms (note: not a necessary condition of democracy, in theory)

economic powerhouse with opportunity for some lucky few to REALLY live high on the hog (note: not a necessary condition of democracy ever) (second note: radical maldistribution of wealth will lead to intense social discord soon)

verbal freedom as guaranteed by First Amendment (I love the right to complain)

pleasant climate, free travel to pleasant locations year round (imagine being trapped in certain parts of Soviet Russia and therefore being politically snowbound all your life!)

technologically advanced, leads to material comfort and enjoyment (movies, internet, etc.) (note: not a condition necessary for democracy at all)

sexually more liberal than most "traditional" societies (almost entirely contrary to most democracies, in human history if not in the present)

it includes my "home," the landscapes and institutions I grew up in, so I have fond memories

cartloads of consumer choice (three types of Raisin Bran, seventy types of automobile tire, etc.) (an idiotic outgrowth of capital-based investment strategies as a foundation for speculative investing in stock markets, and in no way necessary for democracy)

But none of these (and other) benefits has much at all to do with either (1) demonstrating we're "democratic" or "free" or (2) the "best damn country in the world." So far, we AREN'T, necessarily. We MIGHT be, but the things I've listed don't prove the case to anyone who prefers different things. Things like:

freedom to not worship, and to voice his opinion on the idiocy of religion, and to not be directed by a political leader who invokes a monotheistic Protestant Christian God as though such statements were not an affront

freedom to walk around naked

freedom to be assessed as "valuable" or even "desirable" in a manner independent of material wealth (imagine if fast TYPING SPEED and a DSL line were considered sexy!)

right to treat women like chattel, by wrapping them in beekeepers outfits and so forth

right to enjoy physically fits sights all the time, rather than having to observe obesity in all locations

visceral connection with the land because of walking and working it in one's hands, leading to deep spiritual understanding of man's role in the life cycle

love of sports other than hockey / football / baseball / basketball (those which are, surprisingly, quite undemocratic -- the first three require high levels of material wealth for outfitting, and hence tend to create class divisions in the childhood levels; the middle two have a designated field position of "kingpin" whom everyone else WATCHES play; etc.)

freedom not to be derided by most foreign nationals simply because my nation hikes about the globe deliberately making enemies rather than friends

immortality

(heh, just thought I'd throw that in to see if you were listening...)

So, whether or not this is "best" is obviously, to me, not arranged yet. And we aren't working on making it better, we're working much harder on making everyone else worse in the name of making them better. I don't get it.

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The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. Friedrich Nietzsche

Frowning Budah

Thank You, I could not have said it better myself.

If we are not allowed to express our opinions how will the people who are suppose to be representing us know how we feel? The concept of our Government is not to elect some one, then give them Carte Blanche to do what ever they want. Our elected officials are suppose to be doing the will of the people not vice versa.

final_identity

I do feel that the acceptance of someone expressing contrary opinions is at an all-time low in the US, and I do feel that this has been created deliberately by one group (well, a sub-group of that group).

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The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. Friedrich Nietzsche

BoCo

"member of the Southwest Peace Fellowship" and "F U G W" seem to contradict each other, don't they?

Reminds me of this shop we have in my town called The Peace Nook, where they sell mostly hateful anti-republican, anti-male and anti-Bush stickers.

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Activism is a way for useless people to feel important.

warrrreagl

Not quite. Any law enforcement official in the United States can order a protester to remove a sign that the official believes is momentarily disruptive without violating the protester's First Amendment rights.

The part of the First Amendment that everyone forgets is the very first part ... "Congress shall make no law....."

An officer or Secret Service agent that says "Take down that sign right now" is not violating your First Amendment rights. A city council that votes to enforce a "No Protest-Sign Law" IS violating the First Amendment.

There is a difference.

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Living is easy with eyes closed.