First privately funded rocket breaks through earth's atmosphere - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Ustwo · 10-05-2004, 06:51 AM

Government space travel, like most government programs, is a dead end. Nasa research is good but in terms of space development it just won't happen.

Its to political and pricey, and look how we gave up on the moon.

I'd love to see more of this, and soon. Lets just hope we can keep the lawyers out of it.

roachboy · 10-05-2004, 07:24 AM

not meaning to rain on this parade, but....

while it is kinda cool that this project has managed what it has, the fact is that it would not have been possible, at any level, had it not been for the previous development of space programs on the basis of state funding.

just as the silicon valley would not have been possible without a significant regional infrastructure in place that was developed largely by the ability of stanford university had to accumulate/divert state weapons research monies during world war 2.

it seems that the myth of the entrepreneur presupposes a kind of amnesia when it comes to history. the opposition of entrepreneurial activity to infrastructure (which is in almost every case a public undertaking) is simply naieve. factually wrong and (worse) tiresome in its naievte.

Ustwo · 10-05-2004, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

not meaning to rain on this parade, but....

while it is kinda cool that this project has managed what it has, the fact is that it would not have been possible, at any level, had it not been for the previous development of space programs on the basis of state funding.

just as the silicon valley would not have been possible without a significant regional infrastructure in place that was developed largely by the ability of stanford university had to accumulate/divert state weapons research monies during world war 2.

it seems that the myth of the entrepreneur presupposes a kind of amnesia when it comes to history. the opposition of entrepreneurial activity to infrastructure (which is in almost every case a public undertaking) is simply naieve. factually wrong and (worse) tiresome in its naievte.

You mean like powered flight?

Sure glad the government helped out with perhaps the most important invention of all time.

ARTelevision · 10-05-2004, 07:39 AM

Good points, roachboy.

I'd say at this point, the highly risk-averse culture we find ourselves in and the extra restraints put on NASA in terms of public relations and budgetary requirements make the rapid advancement of man-in-space technology impossible now in that venue.

Curiously, we have a situation where the government can not fuel the populist vision of the possibility of space flight for anyone but the military/elite crowd. As an antidote to that, private enterprise is able to offer up the promise of low-cost and accessible voyages into the Final Frontier. It's a uniquely contemporary solution that is an undeniably a good and inspiring thing, I think.

Ustwo · 10-05-2004, 07:49 AM

Governments do not have the accountability, the desire, or the ability to bring anything to the masses efficiently. The post office is the closest thing and look how well they are doing these days. (I spent some time working IN a post office (not for) I'm surprised the mail ever gets anywhere). They can fund a great scientist and learn basic things, they can do things first (as the funds are great and the need of return does not exist) but it will always be more expensive and complex then is necessary.

Government can do such pioneering work well, but after its over its best for government to step out of the way.

roachboy · 10-05-2004, 08:11 AM

it is exactly this general opposition that i was referring to, ustwo:

it says nothing historically, offers nothing in terms of understanding any aspect of the state and its functioning, and serves to occult the relationship between initiaves undertaken by Individuals or small groups (almost always the latter--rarely the former--no-one works in isolation) and infrastructure--which renders the notion of the entrepreneur totally afunctional.

creativity is a social act. in most places, you find a tight relation between conentration of funding--available publically through one or another state undertaking--and research/creativity.
it is america that is the exception.
your viewpoint would first presuppose that the american example is universal, when it is obviously not if you spend even a little time looking into the matter.
therefore, no series of platitudes about the state like those above can possibly account for this diversity of roles adopted by various states in sponsoring creative activity--the state is not a metphysical entity, not a category--its functions are diverse as its situation: but one thing that is common to all modern forms is that it makes activities accountable to the public, if the public mobilizes and brings pressure to bear on it. private wealth, private initiatives are those which have no mechanisms in place to assure accountability.

since the entire worldview that valorizes atomized private undertaking, and opposes then to the state, is also suspicious of public mobilization (the fifth column, the commies do that sort of thing--righteous americans sit alone watching tv) and even of the public itself (pace margaret thatcher for summing this up--"i look around me and i do not see society: i see individuals), i suspect that conversation along these lines might be difficult. but we'll see.

caveat: i am not collapsing creativity into state functioning--to do that would be to simply argue for the same binary i am trying to criticize from the opposite side. it would simply be the reverse of the position outlined above.
what i am saying is that entire logic is wrongheaded.

tecoyah · 10-05-2004, 03:04 PM

It was almost a given....but history in the making none the less. My guess is......commercial flights within two years. Regular tourist runs within five.

http://www.rednova.com/news/stories/.../story003.html

MOJAVE, Calif. (AP) -- A stout, star-spangled rocket plane broke through the Earth's atmosphere to the edge of space Monday for the second time in five days, capturing a $10 million prize aimed at opening the final frontier to tourists.

The privately built SpaceShipOne took off underneath the belly of a mother plane that carried it about nine miles over the Mojave Desert. From there, SpaceShipOne fired its engine and streaked skyward at about three times the speed of sound on a half-hour flight that took it more than 62 miles high, generally considered the point where space begins.

SpaceShipOne - with test pilot Brian Binnie at the controls - then glided safely back to Earth.

"This is the true frontier of transportation," said Marion C. Blakey, head of the Federal Aviation Administration, who stood near the runway to watch the flight. "It feels a little bit like Kitty Hawk must have."

Binnie called it a "fantastic experience" - especially the sight of Earth from space. "There is darkness outside the windows," he said. "It's contrasted starkly by the bright pearl that is the greater California area, which is the view from up there."

The reward for the achievement is the $10 million Ansari X Prize, created in 1996 to kick-start the development of privately built rocket ships that could make spaceflight available to the public.

To win the prize, a spacecraft capable of carrying three people had to make two flights to an altitude just over 62 miles within two weeks. The goal was to show that the rocket that could go back and forth like a spaceliner.

About an hour after the spaceship landed, X Prize founder Peter Diamandis said the altitude was official, and declared SpaceShipOne's team the winner.

During the post-flight news conference, SpaceShipOne designer Burt Rutan took a few shots at the traditional aerospace community.

"The big guys, the Boeings, the Lockheeds and the naysaying people at Houston ... I think they are looking at each other now and saying, 'We're screwed,'" Rutan said.

Major funding for the prize came from the Ansari family of Dallas. Diamandis hoped the St. Louis-based Ansari X Prize would have the same effect on space travel as the Orteig Prize had on air travel more than 80 years ago. Charles Lindbergh claimed that $25,000 prize in 1927 after making his solo trans-Atlantic flight.

SpaceShipOne's effort - funded with more than $20 million from Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen - has drawn high-level attention from the U.S. government, and comes at a time when others are preparing for space tourism.

Last week, Richard Branson, the British airline mogul and adventurer, announced that beginning in 2007, he will begin offering paying customers flights into space aboard. Branson said he had a deal, worth up to $25 million over 15 years, to license the technology that led to SpaceShipOne. Fares will start at more than $200,000.

NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe came to Mojave to watch last week's flight, and the FAA and members of the industry are in talks about regulatory aspects of space tourism, particularly the safety of people on the ground as well as that of the passengers.

Patti Grace Smith, associate administrator for the FAA's office of commercial space transportation, said the excitement around the X Prize has begun to draw the interest of the investment community as well.

"I'm starting to get calls from brokers. That's brand new," she said.

A crowd of thousands of space enthusiasts and reporters gathered to watch on Monday as SpaceShipOne - with a plump fuselage and spindly wings 16 1/2 feet across - ascended into calm, clear skies on a chilly morning that saw the dawn bathed in pink hues.

Binnie, a graduate of the Navy test pilot school, was at the controls when SpaceShipOne broke the sound barrier for the first time on a December test flight, which was marred when the craft hit the runway hard upon landing and veered into the brush, where a landing gear collapsed. This time his landing was flawless.

The first flight needed to win the X Prize took place on Sept. 29, with test pilot Michael Melvill at the controls. The spacecraft started corkscrewing as it neared the 62-mile mark, but Melvill managed to complete the flight safely.

Word of Binnie's accomplishment was relayed by NASA to the two men aboard the international space station, astronaut Mike Fincke and cosmonaut Gennady Padalka.

"Fantastic," Fincke said, adding that it was great to learn that for a while he and Gennady were not "the only ones off the planet."

stonegrody · 10-05-2004, 03:08 PM

Not to sound like a big nerd but damn, this is pretty exciting stuff. Pretty soon there's gonna be commercial space travel, which most of us probably wont be able to afford, but it's still a pretty big step in history. Good times.

The Phenomenon · 10-05-2004, 10:54 PM

This is awesome

tropple · 10-06-2004, 03:07 AM

Man, if I was a girl, I'd lay some leg on Burt Rutan.

This is the coolest space event since the first Mercury.

I vote that we all send charge-back invoices to NASA. Let's get a refund!

ARTelevision · 10-07-2004, 07:45 AM

"Today we make history. Today the winners are the people of the Earth. Today we go to the stars."
----
Peter Diamandis (1961-) U.S. entrepreneur - aerospace engineer; trained medical doctor; chairman of the X Prize Foundation. Quote said after SpaceShipOne completed its second mission to space, winning the X Prize.
.........

It is great to see the impact of this sort of event and how it focuses our attention toward things that unite us in future-oriented and visionary ways...

timbuk2 · 10-07-2004, 07:16 PM

...what was the middle part again?

-tb2

denim · 10-10-2004, 04:33 PM

Okay, I've updated my web site to include the stuff I saw last Sunday and Monday. Enjoy.

Rodney · 10-11-2004, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

not meaning to rain on this parade, but....

while it is kinda cool that this project has managed what it has, the fact is that it would not have been possible, at any level, had it not been for the previous development of space programs on the basis of state funding.

This is true; federal funding helped build up the whole aerospace establishment and, for all I know, development of the lightweight composite materials that the spacecraft were made of. And government need for high-performance electronics in military and space applications helped make Silicon Valley possible.

But what the government does in such cases is fund basic research and development to meet certain of its specific needs. When those needs are met, government loses interest; but it leaves behind some highly trained people and piles of curious technologies that can be combined in interesting ways by private industry. Government has no incentive to do this, but private industry does (if it's smart).

Where private industry is succeeding here is operationally; NASA the organization has all the technology and smarts in the world, but is bogged down by bureaucracy and conflicting goals. Entrepreneurs don't bog; or if they do, they're not entrepreneurs for very long.

OzOz · 10-14-2004, 02:03 AM

I've been fascinated by this project ever since I first heard of it a few years ago. I'll never forget my first look at photos of the interior of SpaceShipOne taken in flight on one of its earlier unpowered glide tests, and the shiver that went down my spine when the thought hit me - "This is a spacecraft you're looking at!"

10-05-2004, 06:51 AM	#81 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Government space travel, like most government programs, is a dead end. Nasa research is good but in terms of space development it just won't happen. Its to political and pricey, and look how we gave up on the moon. I'd love to see more of this, and soon. Lets just hope we can keep the lawyers out of it. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

10-05-2004, 07:24 AM	#82 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	not meaning to rain on this parade, but.... while it is kinda cool that this project has managed what it has, the fact is that it would not have been possible, at any level, had it not been for the previous development of space programs on the basis of state funding. just as the silicon valley would not have been possible without a significant regional infrastructure in place that was developed largely by the ability of stanford university had to accumulate/divert state weapons research monies during world war 2. it seems that the myth of the entrepreneur presupposes a kind of amnesia when it comes to history. the opposition of entrepreneurial activity to infrastructure (which is in almost every case a public undertaking) is simply naieve. factually wrong and (worse) tiresome in its naievte. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

10-05-2004, 07:39 AM	#84 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Good points, roachboy. I'd say at this point, the highly risk-averse culture we find ourselves in and the extra restraints put on NASA in terms of public relations and budgetary requirements make the rapid advancement of man-in-space technology impossible now in that venue. Curiously, we have a situation where the government can not fuel the populist vision of the possibility of space flight for anyone but the military/elite crowd. As an antidote to that, private enterprise is able to offer up the promise of low-cost and accessible voyages into the Final Frontier. It's a uniquely contemporary solution that is an undeniably a good and inspiring thing, I think. __________________ create evolution

10-05-2004, 07:49 AM	#85 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Governments do not have the accountability, the desire, or the ability to bring anything to the masses efficiently. The post office is the closest thing and look how well they are doing these days. (I spent some time working IN a post office (not for) I'm surprised the mail ever gets anywhere). They can fund a great scientist and learn basic things, they can do things first (as the funds are great and the need of return does not exist) but it will always be more expensive and complex then is necessary. Government can do such pioneering work well, but after its over its best for government to step out of the way. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

10-05-2004, 08:11 AM	#86 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	it is exactly this general opposition that i was referring to, ustwo: it says nothing historically, offers nothing in terms of understanding any aspect of the state and its functioning, and serves to occult the relationship between initiaves undertaken by Individuals or small groups (almost always the latter--rarely the former--no-one works in isolation) and infrastructure--which renders the notion of the entrepreneur totally afunctional. creativity is a social act. in most places, you find a tight relation between conentration of funding--available publically through one or another state undertaking--and research/creativity. it is america that is the exception. your viewpoint would first presuppose that the american example is universal, when it is obviously not if you spend even a little time looking into the matter. therefore, no series of platitudes about the state like those above can possibly account for this diversity of roles adopted by various states in sponsoring creative activity--the state is not a metphysical entity, not a category--its functions are diverse as its situation: but one thing that is common to all modern forms is that it makes activities accountable to the public, if the public mobilizes and brings pressure to bear on it. private wealth, private initiatives are those which have no mechanisms in place to assure accountability. since the entire worldview that valorizes atomized private undertaking, and opposes then to the state, is also suspicious of public mobilization (the fifth column, the commies do that sort of thing--righteous americans sit alone watching tv) and even of the public itself (pace margaret thatcher for summing this up--"i look around me and i do not see society: i see individuals), i suspect that conversation along these lines might be difficult. but we'll see. caveat: i am not collapsing creativity into state functioning--to do that would be to simply argue for the same binary i am trying to criticize from the opposite side. it would simply be the reverse of the position outlined above. what i am saying is that entire logic is wrongheaded. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

10-05-2004, 03:04 PM	#87 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	X-Prize won by Spaceship 1 It was almost a given....but history in the making none the less. My guess is......commercial flights within two years. Regular tourist runs within five. http://www.rednova.com/news/stories/.../story003.html MOJAVE, Calif. (AP) -- A stout, star-spangled rocket plane broke through the Earth's atmosphere to the edge of space Monday for the second time in five days, capturing a $10 million prize aimed at opening the final frontier to tourists. The privately built SpaceShipOne took off underneath the belly of a mother plane that carried it about nine miles over the Mojave Desert. From there, SpaceShipOne fired its engine and streaked skyward at about three times the speed of sound on a half-hour flight that took it more than 62 miles high, generally considered the point where space begins. SpaceShipOne - with test pilot Brian Binnie at the controls - then glided safely back to Earth. "This is the true frontier of transportation," said Marion C. Blakey, head of the Federal Aviation Administration, who stood near the runway to watch the flight. "It feels a little bit like Kitty Hawk must have." Binnie called it a "fantastic experience" - especially the sight of Earth from space. "There is darkness outside the windows," he said. "It's contrasted starkly by the bright pearl that is the greater California area, which is the view from up there." The reward for the achievement is the $10 million Ansari X Prize, created in 1996 to kick-start the development of privately built rocket ships that could make spaceflight available to the public. To win the prize, a spacecraft capable of carrying three people had to make two flights to an altitude just over 62 miles within two weeks. The goal was to show that the rocket that could go back and forth like a spaceliner. About an hour after the spaceship landed, X Prize founder Peter Diamandis said the altitude was official, and declared SpaceShipOne's team the winner. During the post-flight news conference, SpaceShipOne designer Burt Rutan took a few shots at the traditional aerospace community. "The big guys, the Boeings, the Lockheeds and the naysaying people at Houston ... I think they are looking at each other now and saying, 'We're screwed,'" Rutan said. Major funding for the prize came from the Ansari family of Dallas. Diamandis hoped the St. Louis-based Ansari X Prize would have the same effect on space travel as the Orteig Prize had on air travel more than 80 years ago. Charles Lindbergh claimed that $25,000 prize in 1927 after making his solo trans-Atlantic flight. SpaceShipOne's effort - funded with more than $20 million from Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen - has drawn high-level attention from the U.S. government, and comes at a time when others are preparing for space tourism. Last week, Richard Branson, the British airline mogul and adventurer, announced that beginning in 2007, he will begin offering paying customers flights into space aboard. Branson said he had a deal, worth up to $25 million over 15 years, to license the technology that led to SpaceShipOne. Fares will start at more than $200,000. NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe came to Mojave to watch last week's flight, and the FAA and members of the industry are in talks about regulatory aspects of space tourism, particularly the safety of people on the ground as well as that of the passengers. Patti Grace Smith, associate administrator for the FAA's office of commercial space transportation, said the excitement around the X Prize has begun to draw the interest of the investment community as well. "I'm starting to get calls from brokers. That's brand new," she said. A crowd of thousands of space enthusiasts and reporters gathered to watch on Monday as SpaceShipOne - with a plump fuselage and spindly wings 16 1/2 feet across - ascended into calm, clear skies on a chilly morning that saw the dawn bathed in pink hues. Binnie, a graduate of the Navy test pilot school, was at the controls when SpaceShipOne broke the sound barrier for the first time on a December test flight, which was marred when the craft hit the runway hard upon landing and veered into the brush, where a landing gear collapsed. This time his landing was flawless. The first flight needed to win the X Prize took place on Sept. 29, with test pilot Michael Melvill at the controls. The spacecraft started corkscrewing as it neared the 62-mile mark, but Melvill managed to complete the flight safely. Word of Binnie's accomplishment was relayed by NASA to the two men aboard the international space station, astronaut Mike Fincke and cosmonaut Gennady Padalka. "Fantastic," Fincke said, adding that it was great to learn that for a while he and Gennady were not "the only ones off the planet." __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

10-05-2004, 03:08 PM	#88 (permalink)
stonegrody Brooding. Location: CA-USA	Not to sound like a big nerd but damn, this is pretty exciting stuff. Pretty soon there's gonna be commercial space travel, which most of us probably wont be able to afford, but it's still a pretty big step in history. Good times. __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality. Embrace this moment. Remember. We are eternal. All this pain is an illusion. Tool - Parabola

10-05-2004, 10:54 PM	#89 (permalink)
The Phenomenon Psycho Location: I think my horns are coming out	This is awesome __________________ Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good.

10-06-2004, 03:07 AM	#90 (permalink)
tropple Junkie	Man, if I was a girl, I'd lay some leg on Burt Rutan. This is the coolest space event since the first Mercury. I vote that we all send charge-back invoices to NASA. Let's get a refund! __________________ +++++++++++Boom!

10-07-2004, 07:45 AM	#91 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	"Today we make history. Today the winners are the people of the Earth. Today we go to the stars." ---- Peter Diamandis (1961-) U.S. entrepreneur - aerospace engineer; trained medical doctor; chairman of the X Prize Foundation. Quote said after SpaceShipOne completed its second mission to space, winning the X Prize. ......... It is great to see the impact of this sort of event and how it focuses our attention toward things that unite us in future-oriented and visionary ways... __________________ create evolution

10-07-2004, 07:16 PM	#92 (permalink)
timbuk2 Upright Location: Texas	...what was the middle part again? -tb2

10-10-2004, 04:33 PM	#93 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	Okay, I've updated my web site to include the stuff I saw last Sunday and Monday. Enjoy.

10-14-2004, 02:03 AM	#95 (permalink)
OzOz Psycho Location: Right here, right now.	I've been fascinated by this project ever since I first heard of it a few years ago. I'll never forget my first look at photos of the interior of SpaceShipOne taken in flight on one of its earlier unpowered glide tests, and the shiver that went down my spine when the thought hit me - "This is a spacecraft you're looking at!"