American beheaded by Iraqi complete thread

[cartmen34]

My question is this.. what was this guy doing in Iraqi in the first place. Perhaps I missed it, but all the article says is that he was a small business owner in PA....so what is this guy doing in Iraqi?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._re_mi_ea/iraq

killing soliders in wartime is one thing, but I guess we should not expect any better from people who see flying planes into buildings as an act of heroism.

[forseti-6]

He was a civilian contractor. I don't know what he was doing, but it's possible he was working for the Haliburton subsidiary.

Killing civilians is wrong, but what those few soldiers did to humiliate those Iraqi prisoners wasn't much better. I'm not surprised something like this is happening - it pisses me off too much to write more.

[absorbentishe]

He was there building cell towers I believe, thinking he could help re-build the infrastructure of the country.

It's a shame that he was killed that way. The one's that did it were praising god as they did it? I don't get that, but that's why they are extremest. Yes, we acted inappropriately towards some captured soldiers, but taking a life as revenge is not the answer either.

[forseti-6]

Originally posted by absorbentishe
Yes, we acted inappropriately towards some captured soldiers, but taking a life as revenge is not the answer either.

No it's not, but this is the way they deal with things. There's a great quote in "Blackhawk Down." It goes something like "the ability to kill - that is power." And that's how they see it.

[Cynthetiq]

those people are the former in my sig.

[tricks]

Did you notice that in the pictures, the Iraqis are always hooded and the Americans are showing their faces?

The prison pictures, we can identify the guards but not the prisoners. The terrorists cover their faces and show their victims.

I've always wondered why those who are supposedly so devout and dedicated to their cause, Palistenian militants, Iraqi insurgents, feel the need to hide behind masks. Maybe, besides the fear of reprisal from their enemies, their cause isn't so popular to be pursued out in the open.

[forseti-6]

Originally posted by tricks
Did you notice that in the pictures, the Iraqis are always hooded and the Americans are showing their faces?

The prison pictures, we can identify the guards but not the prisoners. The terrorists cover their faces and show their victims.

I've always wondered why those who are supposedly so devout and dedicated to their cause, Palistenian militants, Iraqi insurgents, feel the need to hide behind masks. Maybe, besides the fear of reprisal from their enemies, their cause isn't so popular to be pursued out in the open.

Hmmm that's an interesting observation. I'm not quite sure why they do that either. Perhaps they are ashamed of what they are doing, but somehow feel compelled to do it anyways.

[clavus]

UG! I nearly jacked this thread. Sorry.

This sucks. I hate this stupid war.

[cartmen34]

Originally posted by forseti-6
Hmmm that's an interesting observation. I'm not quite sure why they do that either. Perhaps they are ashamed of what they are doing, but somehow feel compelled to do it anyways.

The obvious answer is to conceal their identities to avoid immediate capture, but if you wanted to start an analytical conversation about the mental state of these people, then you had better block out...oh say, 4 or 5 years of your life for that conversation, 'cause those folks have a seriously skewed view... or a tilted view(?) if you will, of life. lol

[forseti-6]

Originally posted by cartmen34
The obvious answer is to conceal their identities to avoid immediate capture

Well... I don't know how obvious that answer is - despite the surface obviousness. Trying to find these individuals would be like finding needle in a stack of needles. Look how long it took to find Saddam. We still haven't found Osama or Mullah Omar.

[cartmen34]

Originally posted by forseti-6
Well... I don't know how obvious that answer is - despite the surface obviousness. Trying to find these individuals would be like finding needle in a stack of needles. Look how long it took to find Saddam. We still haven't found Osama or Mullah Omar.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I have no doubt in my mind that these people would be nearly impossible to find and hold responsible. My only point was that by not wearing masks, it would make the manhunt that much easier for us as we would have faces to look for. I mean, it worked with the "deck of cards" (or sort of did anyways.)

[denim]

Well, if that's power, and they take this as compensation for "humiliating" their people, then we can stop apologizing now, right?

[forseti-6]

Originally posted by denim
Well, if that's power, and they take this as compensation for "humiliating" their people, then we can stop apologizing now, right?

Fortunately we're more civilized than them. However, I'm still unsure what the true consequence of the prison bs will be. I fear this "beheading" is just the beginning.

[yournamehere]

Originally posted by forseti-6
Killing civilians is wrong, but what those few soldiers did to humiliate those Iraqi prisoners wasn't much better.

Those civilian contractors might disagree with you - given a choice, I'm sure they'd have chosen a few minutes of humiliation over being dead forever.

Still - I agree it is shameful behavior.

Originally posted by yournamehere
Those civilian contractors might disagree with you - given a choice, I'm sure they'd have chosen a few minutes of humiliation over being dead forever.

Still - I agree it is shameful behavior.

Apparently prisoners were killed also, not just brutilized, tortured and humiliated. I think the problem is that us soldiers are told they are fighting for sept 11th and they have a hate ingrained into them towards terrorists, which rubs off as hating arabs as they tend to be fanatical. How can you teach a person to hate someone so much and then tell them to turn around, treat them humanley and with respect? It is terrible what happened to this prisoner but at the same time, the US goverment did release some prisoners to calm fighting in falujah so why not trade agian to save the life of a civilian. I am disgusted by their actions yet I can see why they feel the need to defend their own homeland from occupation.

[raeanna74]

"Last month, Iraqi militants videotaped the killing of Italian hostage Fabrizio Quattrocchi, but the Arab TV network Al-Jazeera refused to air it because it was too graphic. "

They're just using the USA's abuse of Iraqi prisoners as an excuse. This isn't NEW. Any wonder why our soldiers have a strong distaste for the Iraqi military???

[forseti-6]

Originally posted by raeanna74

They're just using the USA's abuse of Iraqi prisoners as an excuse. This isn't NEW. Any wonder why our soldiers have a strong distaste for the Iraqi military???

For the most part they don't. But there are always those few morons that do some stupid shit like that and make the rest of us look bad.

All the soldiers in question were reservists - probably frustrated about being away from their families for so long.

[shakran]

Originally posted by cartmen34

killing soliders in wartime is one thing, but I guess we should not expect any better from people who see flying planes into buildings as an act of heroism.

I see. So because a few evil men flew planes into buildings, ALL Arabs are evil.

OK, I'll accept that you believe that, but to believe that without admitting the following is disingenuous at best:

I guess they saw it as "7 Americans tortured Iraqi prisoners, so ALL Americans are evil."

Looks a bit different now, doesn't it.

[forseti-6]

Cartmen34,

I agree with shakran's evaluation. I believe it's dangerous to generalize like that.

Shakran,

In Cartmen's defense (and giving him the benefit of the doubt) when I first read that, I implied that he meant all as in ALL Al Qaeda. Which is still generalizing, but a generalization I'm sure many would agree with. However, if he meant all Arabs like you interpreted it, I agree that it was a poor generalization.

[Phaenx]

Originally posted by forseti-6
Hmmm that's an interesting observation. I'm not quite sure why they do that either. Perhaps they are ashamed of what they are doing, but somehow feel compelled to do it anyways.

Because they're afraid of us. They know if we have a picture of what they look like we'll bring our shit to their grill.

[kutulu]

I think its funny that people are trying to compare the two. You can't compare the acts of terrorists to those acting on behalf of the nation of supposed "liberators"

[slvrnblck]

Originally posted by forseti-6
Fortunately we're more civilized than them. However, I'm still unsure what the true consequence of the prison bs will be. I fear this "beheading" is just the beginning.

How are Americans more civilized than Iraqis? Americans kill and torture Iraqis the same as Iraqis torture and kill Americans.

This whole thing just makes me sick, its sad that we as humans are capable of such disgusting things. We can all thank Mr Bush for the 25 000 + deaths so far.

[shakran]

Originally posted by kutulu
I think its funny that people are trying to compare the two. You can't compare the acts of terrorists to those acting on behalf of the nation of supposed "liberators"

Agreed. The terrorists don't make any bones about what they are or what they do. That's not the case with the Americans (as anyone who listened to some of the congresspeople today will know)

[kutulu]

Originally posted by shakran
Agreed. The terrorists don't make any bones about what they are or what they do. That's not the case with the Americans (as anyone who listened to some of the congresspeople today will know)

At least we know where we stand with the terrorists...

[H12]

Originally posted by Phaenx
Because they're afraid of us. They know if we have a picture of what they look like we'll bring our shit to their grill.

Heh, that's something that most of my home-town would agree with...my town's a tiny redneck town in middle Tennessee, just so you can get an idea.

I've supported our troops the whole way and have stayed neutral on the war up to this point...but now I am against the war, because deaths are going up and some of those deaths are people who weren't meant to die for their country, like this instance here. For shame.

[QuasiMojo]

Something doesn't smell right about those prison pictures...
the way they were released...leaked....I don't know...I just don't know.

I just think we can forget about oil...we can forget about regime change...we can forget about weapons of mass destruction as being the reason for all this mess. What we have here baby, is a god-damned Holy War. Full-Tilt boogie. The snakes are out of the cage and it's Them or Us.

/jesus wept

[cementor]

Originally posted by slvrnblck
How are Americans more civilized than Iraqis? Americans kill and torture Iraqis the same as Iraqis torture and kill Americans.

This whole thing just makes me sick, its sad that we as humans are capable of such disgusting things. We can all thank Mr Bush for the 25 000 + deaths so far.

Funny to me that Saddam and Al Qaeda have nothing to do with those 25000 deaths. Personally, I'm tired of getting messages each day about my fellow employees being ambushed, kidnapped and murdered. I think we (the US and the Coalitioners) are not being tough enough! We are fighting a bunch of coward who don't have the gumption to show their faces when they make a statement. Respect em ... Hell NO!

[feelgood]

Link

Video Shows Beheading of American in Iraq

By NIKO PRICE, Associated Press Writer

CAIRO, Egypt - A video posted Tuesday on an Islamic militant Web site showed the beheading of an American civilian in Iraq (news - web sites), and said the execution was carried out by an al-Qaida affiliated group to avenge the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.

The video bore the title "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi shown slaughtering an American." It was unclear whether al-Zarqawi — an associate of Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) — was shown in the video, or was claiming responsibility for ordering the execution.

Al-Zarqawi also is said to have ties to terrorist groups ranging from Ansar al Islam in Iraq to Egyptian Islamic Jihad. He's believed to be behind many attacks in Iraq, including numerous high-profile operations.

The video pictures of the execution showed five men wearing headscarves and black ski masks, standing over a bound man in an orange jumpsuit — similar to a prisoner's uniform — who identified himself as Nick Berg, a U.S. civilian whose body was found on a highway overpass in Baghdad on Saturday.

"My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael, my mother's name is Suzanne," the man said on the video. "I have a brother and sister, David and Sarah. I live in ... Philadelphia."

There was no way to be certain the tape was authentic.

After reading a statement, the men were seen pulling the man to his side and putting a large knife to his neck. A scream sounded as the men cut his head off, shouting "Allahu Akbar!" — "God is great." They then held the head out before the camera.

Berg's family said Tuesday they knew their son had been decapitated, but didn't know the details of the killing. When told of the video by an Associated Press reporter, Berg's father, Michael, and his two siblings hugged and cried.

"I knew he was decapitated before. That manner is preferable to a long and torturous death. But I didn't want it to become public," Michael Berg said.

"Our thoughts and prayers are with his family," said White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, traveling with President Bush (news - web sites) in Arkansas. "It shows the true nature of the enemies of freedom. They have no regard for the lives of innocent men, women and children. We will pursue those who are responsible and bring them to justice."

Because Berg was a U.S. citizen, the FBI (news - web sites) has jurisdiction to investigate the case as a criminal matter. A senior law enforcement official in Washington, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the FBI would probably get involved so long as adequate security is provided by the military for investigators to do their work.

On the Web site, one of the executioners read a statement:

"For the mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the U.S. administration to exchange this hostage with some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib and they refused."

"So we tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins ... slaughtered in this way."

The Web site on which the video was posted is known as a clearing house for al-Qaida and Islamic extremist groups' statements and tapes. An audiotape purportedly from bin Laden — which the CIA (news - web sites) said was probably authentic — appeared on the same Web site last week.

Western officials say al-Zarqawi, whose real name is Ahmad Fadhil al-Khalayleh, is a lieutenant of bin Laden. The United States has offered $10 million for information leading to the capture or killing of al-Zarqawi, saying he is trying to build a network of foreign militants in Iraq to work for al-Qaida.

In the video, the speaker threatened both President Bush and Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf.

"As for you Bush ... expect severe days. You and your soldiers will regret the day you stepped into the land of Iraq," he said. He described Musharraf as "a traitor agent."

The slaying recalled the kidnapping and videotaped beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in 2002 in Pakistan. Four Islamic militants have been convicted of kidnapping Pearl, but seven other suspects — including those who allegedly slit his throat — remain at large.

Suzanne Berg, the mother of the 26-year-old Berg, of West Chester, Pa., said her son was in Iraq as an independent businessman to help rebuild communication antennas. He had been missing since April 9, she said.

"He had this idea that he could help rebuild the infrastructure," she said.

The U.S. military Tuesday said an American civilian was found dead in Baghdad, but did not release his identity. State Department spokeswoman Susan Pittman said she couldn't release the name of the dead American, but said she not aware of more than one civilian found dead in recent days.

The military said there were signs of trauma to the body. Suzanne Berg said she was told her son's death was violent but did not want to discuss details.

Berg, who was in Baghdad from late December to Feb. 1, returned to Iraq in March. He didn't find any work and planned again to return home on March 30, but his daily communications home stopped on March 24. He later told his parents he was jailed by Iraqi officials at a checkpoint in Mosul.

"He was arrested and held without due process," his father, Michael Berg, told the Daily Local News of West Chester recently. "By the time he got out the whole area was inflamed with violence.

The FBI on March 31 interviewed Berg's parents in West Chester. Jerri Williams, a spokeswoman for the Philadelphia FBI office, told The Philadelphia Inquirer the agency had been "asked to interview the parents regarding Mr. Berg's purpose in Iraq."

On April 5, the Bergs filed suit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military. The next day Berg was released. He told his parents he hadn't been mistreated.

The Bergs last heard from their son April 9, when he said he would come home by way of Jordan, Turkey or Kuwait. But by then, hostilities in Iraq had escalated.

Suzanne Berg on Tuesday said she was told her son's body would be transported to Kuwait and then to Dover, Del. She said the family had been trying for weeks to learn where their son was but that federal officials had not been helpful.

"I went through this with them for weeks," she said. "I basically ended up doing most of the investigating myself."

I have seen the video and it is extremely shocking. I know of Americans civilian and soldiers being executed but beheaded???

I'm really disgusted by them...

[sadistikdreams]

Does the link have the video? If so, you should warn people.

[feelgood]

No, the link doesn't have the video. Its yahoo for goodness sake...

[Rubyee]

I do think something like this would have happened had the press not uncovered our abuse of the Iraqui prisoners. But that doesn't make what we are doing any less wrong.

This is probably the scariest war, because we are seeing all of its effects on television, through the internet, and we are hearing about them via satellite. All wars are awful, but this shows the true outcome of war- death- and it puts a face to the many thousands of names.

If we don't change something soon, what is to stop them from coming over here and doing to us what we are doing to them? I understand that literally, we have an army to stop them, but we have been fortunate as a country (I am not sure if that is the right word- fortunate) to have very few wars on our own land. I hope that our luck with that does not run out.

Sorry, but this war shit scares me, so I needed to rant. And the actions seen today need to be some sort of an indicator to our leaders- shit or get off the pot.

[bigoldalphamale]

sure you're right. a few naked iraqis and the liberal left and entire arab world demands apology...but cut off the head of an innocent civilian, and it barely makes a ripple. i am sure islam will be issuing an apology first thing in the morning *holding my breath*...and then the liberal left will apologize for thier conspiracy to unleash the prisoner abuse scandal as a means of disrupting Bush's reelection campaign but which instead has now given islam lisence to perform the acts seen on the full version of the nick berg execution video. which by the way, is available on the net. CNN and ABC may think they know best about what you should and should not be seeing, but there are still a few news sources who protect your right to decide whether or not you want to see for yourself the kind of horrilbe shit humanity is capable of. be warned, it is disturbing...i wasnt ready for it and i wish i hadnt viewed it. nonetheless, having viewed it, and having the seen the nature of our enemy without the assistance of the tinted glass the liberal media would have us view through, i am glad and proud to have President Bush doing his part to rid the world of these ruthless murdering bastards.

-i'm out

[forseti-6]

Originally posted by slvrnblck
How are Americans more civilized than Iraqis? Americans kill and torture Iraqis the same as Iraqis torture and kill Americans.

Wrong and wrong. #1 Americans don't kill and torture Iraqis. Don't generalize - please, it can get messy that way. A few *bad soldiers* tortured these Iraqis. It's not a trend, and I sure hope they are punished for their acts.

From what I have read, Iraqi insurgents torturing Americans doesn't seem to be commonplace either. This incident might not have even been conducted by Iraqis. It is reported that it is Al Qaeda, and until otherwise proven, I'll go with that. Al Qaeda is made up of rogues that are outcasts from their countries - Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, etc. I would even go as far to say that a majority of the insurgents we are fighting in Iraq aren't even Iraqi - they're Yemeni, Syrian and Irani.

I don't want to get too deep here....

[Rococo]

if anyone wants to see the video, go look around in the discussions on fark.com.

I must warn that it is truly, unbelievably disturbing. it really made me feel ill. especially when i think of what that person was going through those last minutes.

[Phaenx]

Originally posted by H12
Heh, that's something that most of my home-town would agree with...my town's a tiny redneck town in middle Tennessee, just so you can get an idea.

I've supported our troops the whole way and have stayed neutral on the war up to this point...but now I am against the war, because deaths are going up and some of those deaths are people who weren't meant to die for their country, like this instance here. For shame.

That's happened in every war ever. Civilians are going to die, it happens. The fact that you see it happening doesn't change anything and giving up and going home when anything gets hard is a losers attitude. Patton would be dissapointed =(.

I lay the blame on the pussies in the video. They can try that shit with our soldiers, but statistics show that they're about 99.9% likely to get owned trying to kidnap a U.S. soldier.

[Macheath]

Originally posted by bigoldalphamale
sure you're right. a few naked iraqis and the liberal left and entire arab world demands apology...but cut off the head of an innocent civilian, and it barely makes a ripple. i am sure islam will be issuing an apology first thing in the morning *holding my breath*...and then the liberal left will apologize for thier conspiracy to unleash the prisoner abuse scandal as a means of disrupting Bush's reelection campaign but which instead has now given islam lisence to perform the acts seen on the full version of the nick berg execution video. which by the way, is available on the net. CNN and ABC may think they know best about what you should and should not be seeing, but there are still a few news sources who protect your right to decide whether or not you want to see for yourself the kind of horrilbe shit humanity is capable of. be warned, it is disturbing...i wasnt ready for it and i wish i hadnt viewed it. nonetheless, having viewed it, and having the seen the nature of our enemy without the assistance of the tinted glass the liberal media would have us view through, i am glad and proud to have President Bush doing his part to rid the world of these ruthless murdering bastards.

-i'm out

These two visceral images are icons; symbolic representations. They both elicit a strong reaction but on two very different levels. The beheading represents the irredeemable madness of fanatics. The leash represents a monumental failure of command and policy.

The idea underlying both is a failure to respect the rights of another human being. In one case, their very right to life, their right to be free from psychological abuse.

The leash image is certainly "not as bad" but it exists on the same continuum of man's inhumanity to man - that extends all the way from punching a guy for being a certain race or creed....to mass genocide.

The very existence of the United States is meant to refute this inhumanity. America is meant to be the world's (last?) best hope for the rights of man. This is the underlying ideology.

The beheading hardens my resolve against forgiving the inhumanity of the prison guards. It shows me how truly bad things CAN become in this world and how America shold resist all temptation to ever set off down the same dark path.

[Phaenx]

Originally posted by raeanna74
"Last month, Iraqi militants videotaped the killing of Italian hostage Fabrizio Quattrocchi, but the Arab TV network Al-Jazeera refused to air it because it was too graphic. "

They're just using the USA's abuse of Iraqi prisoners as an excuse. This isn't NEW. Any wonder why our soldiers have a strong distaste for the Iraqi military???

Yeah, Al Jazeera is evil. The reason they didn't show the prior video was because that guy fought them, made a big fuss and was generally very defiant. It made the arabs look like the bumble fucks they are so they didn't play it.

Censorship-bomb their HQ please.

[slvrnblck]

Originally posted by forseti-6
A few *bad soldiers* tortured these Iraqis.

A "few bad soldiers" is all we hear of. Dont tell me this shit doesnt go on everyday, im sure its much more than a 'few', just because its not on the news, does not mean it does not happen.

The problem is that America has a double standard, everything they do is right, but everything the so called enemy does is wrong. Dont get me wrong, I feel awful for what happened to that young civilian, and believe that those responsible should be killed for what they have done, but please stop making it seem like the entire islamic people are at fault for everything and that they are evil killers when Mr Bush started this entire thing to begin with. I am not on anyones side, I disagree with war in general.

[forseti-6]

Originally posted by slvrnblck
A "few bad soldiers" is all we hear of. Dont tell me this shit doesnt go on everyday, im sure its much more than a 'few', just because its not on the news, does not mean it does not happen.

"This shit" DOESN'T go on everyday. And until you can prove otherwise, I can't do anything but take your comment as presumtion. Does prisoner abuse happen? I'm sure it does, but the extent of humiliation and torture? I highly doubt it.

Originally posted by slvrnblck
The problem is that America has a double standard, everything they do is right, but everything the so called enemy does is wrong. Dont get me wrong, I feel awful for what happened to that young civilian, and believe that those responsible should be killed for what they have done, but please stop making it seem like the entire islamic people are at fault for everything and that they are evil killers when Mr Bush started this entire thing to begin with. I am not on anyones side, I disagree with war in general.

I will have to agree with you there. The media certainly is playing this up to the point that you sorta wonder who is fighting this war.

I'm not sure who you're directing the comment "but please stop making it seem like the entire islamic people are at fault..." to. But I hope it certainly isn't me, because I don't believe I haven't EVER portrayed all Islamic people being bad.

[SpikeQX99]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by forseti-6
[B] Wrong and wrong. #1 Americans don't kill and torture Iraqis. Don't generalize - please, it can get messy that way. A few *bad soldiers* tortured these Iraqis.

What about the "bad" soldiers that kill 'em every day out there in the streets of town or the sands?

I'm not for the war one bit, I think it's gonna get us in trouble more than we can possibly imagine...

This cannot be won by guns alone. The major downfall of this war was the fact that the TV was allowed to sanitize the war to the American people, and only show by the majick of editing, the "bad guys" doing horrible things to our soldiers and civilians.

But our guys are doing the same thing, as proven by the photos. I'm almost 100% certain that there are far more graphic pictures out there of what occured.

Turn the cameras off, quit reporting from the front, and let us fight the way they do... Dirty as all fucking get out. In and out in less than a month if we go balls out and launch every piece of artillery we've got... what about this "shock and awe" thing? It didn't awe them at all. It's like setting an ant hill on fire or knocking down a bees nest.

They are fucking pissed off at us swatting at them, an there are a whole lot more of them than there are of us.

This frustrates me so much, hopefully some of this makes some sense. Sorry for the rant if it was deemed that.