castex

Having recently finished reading the excellent High and Mighty by Keith Bradsher, I thought I'd enquire as to how many of you drive such a vehicle. I'd also like to start a reasoned debate about the merits and pitfalls of these machines.
Just to kick things off, I'll list what I perceive to be potential advantages:

- Adventurous, outdoor image;
- Lofty driving position gives a good view over traffic, over fences and hedges;
- Increased ability offroad and in poor weather conditions;
- Increased ability to intimidate other road users out of one's way;
- Pre-eminence of Domestic (U.S.) manufacturers in this segment - a patriotic choice;
- Extensive tax-break benefits (entire purchase price can be written off over a certain weight threshold(?));
- Safer for occupants when in collision with a vehicle of lesser weight;
- One steps up into an SUV, and sits with one's feet underneath instead of stretched out in front;
- Large carrying capacity;
- Very handy for towing.

That's all I can think of for now. The downsides are manifold, but being a lifelong and confirmed lowrider I'd prefer not to get on my high horse just yet.
Over to you, TFP

The_wall

I dislike them. I feel they are getting waaaaay too big, and people just don't need that space. When I see someone drive in one of the huge SUV's (like the hummer and what not) I can't help but laugh at them. Not to mention all the gas they waste, you could drive 2 or 3 cars worth of gas on one suv alone.

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Polyphobic

I agree. To damn big with crappy gas mileage. The phrase "jack of all trades. master of none comes to mind". Buy either a truck, van, or a passenger car. Not these hybrid vehicles.

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FaderMonkey

I'm not a big fan of cars in general...I just don't understand why people get so into them. Such a waste of money to me. I just want something cheap that gets me where I need to go. I really can't stand SUVs. They are so damn big, and most of them don't really even have all that much extra room inside. Unless you are doing some offroad driving where you need 4x4, there's no point IMO.

Redlemon

Back, oh, 15 years ago or so, all new cars were required to have 3rd brake lights. The cool thing about these brake lights was that you could see it 3 cars ahead of you, because all the windshields on the cars were the same height, and this would give you advance warning that there might be a problem ahead.

Now, with an SUV ahead of me, all I see through its rear window is the SUV's ceiling. SUVs reduce my safety level by simply existing.

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animosity

the off road excuse pisses me off... no one that has an suv uses it for that purpose and if they did they would flip the piece of shit because they are not made for such things.(i know a guy who went mudding in his new $40000 piece of shit and fliped it.)

buy a truck, they are actually functional.

Bill O'Rights

I don't own one, but neither do I have a problem with them. My thought is this; who the hell am I to decide what type of vehicle you need, and subsequently, should drive? No, I'm not ready to go there.

Personally, I think that SUV's started out being utilitarian. That, in my opinion, was a good thing. Now, it seems more status symbol than anything. I mean, for crying out loud, if your buying an SUV for its' versatility, rugedness and usefullness...why, in the hell, would you buy a Lexus, Lincoln, Mercedes, etc.? Wouldn't you be afraid of getting the tires dirty? I don't get the mindset. Still...none of my business.

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animosity

truth....

why must you insist on always being right?

Peryn

They are indeed an interesting vehicle, and i have opinions about various aspects of them on both sides of the love/hate issue.

As for the car itself, as long as they continue to pass emissions, im ok with them. Get as many of em, and as big as you want, but your car should still pass emissions laws.

The drivers : well, thats a whole different story. The drivers of the behemoths are often the worst aspect. Personally, i think you should need a separate lisence class for vehicles with a GVWR above 5500 lbs or so. People dont understand the differences in a huge beast ovver a nimble little econobox. They dont drive like they recognize they are significantly larger, and thus inconvenience everyone else. Like when they take 10 minutes to park because they have no idea how their car handles. I think if the drivers would get a clue, then there would be a lot less hating of the vehicle itself.

Multi-Terrain vehicles : I enjoy a good bit of off-roading here and there, but nothing spectacular. Mainly cause i cant afford to upgrade the Jeep, but not due to lack of desire. Dont knock it till ya try it. A Lot of people go on and on about how you dont need a big car, or to lift it, or whatever. Yer right, you dont need it, but its damned fun. If, as the driver, when on the street, you know how to drive, it doesn't hurt the people on the road, and you have a great weekend hobby. If you want to carry more than a person, maybe a person and a half, with you, the SUV is the only real option. It lets you still go out and adventure with the family, maybe some kids, take your dogs out, who knows.

Hybrid vehicles : As a combination of aspects of many cars and trucks, SUV's provide a very popular niche category of abilities that, at the moment, only they can provide. As someone said, they are a jack of all trades, master of none. Why? Because they dont need to be. They can give you the durability, ruggedness, and off-road capabilities of a truck. The seating capacity for freinds and family of a minivan ( or more ). Many now even give you the ride quality of a Caddy or other sedan. The towing capacity of a semi, and the high seating capacity of...well...umm... and air traffic control tower. If you knew someone that was in the market for a new car, and wanted to be comfy on the road, haul tons of people, tow their toys, and take them off the trail into the mountains, what would you recommend? Even if you dont like them, yous still hafta recomend an SUV of some sort for one reason - they are the only vehicle to fulfill all of their needs. Many people want to be able to handle anything that comes their way, but they dont want to necessarily be able to dominate it. Hence it works to their benefit to be able to have a jack of all trades.

Size : While i like their ability to almost be their own form of Mass Transit with their seating capabilities, Personally, I am getting annoyed with the size, and in some cases, shape. When you are in one, it is indeed nice to be able to see what is going on around you. The problem is when you do it at the cost of everyone else. Suddenly nobody can see around you, and a minor accident situation can become a big problem. In the case of the H2, the side of the car dont slant in toward the middle at all. Which means it is so tall you cant see over/thru it, and so wide you have no chance of seing around it. To me, that is a problem. What makes them so sure their safety/visibility is so much more important than mine.

Crash Safety : This one is gets me on both sides of the issue. Naturally, in a bigger car you are going to be hurt less than the other, smaller vehicle. As much as i might not like, such is life (unless you get hit too hard). I can accept this. Even on the large cars, there seems to be a reasonable amount of bumper compatability. So in a crash, most of the bumper of the very large car will still hit the bumper/trunk/crash area of a smaller car. Granted, its still more dangerous, but at least you still have those areas designed to take an impact their to protect you. Its when people raise their SUVs to a point where there is no bumper compatability that i get pissed. If i get hit by an suv and die, so be it. But ill be damned if i sit by and someone i know gets killed by an SUV because they lifted it and their bumper totally missed the crash zone in my car. You can bet your ass they'd get a lawsuit or two thrown at em in a heartbeat if their lift kit allowed them to go through a window.

Bah, gotta go to class...but thats my take on the whole SUV issue.

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Cynthetiq

push up gas prices I'm happy with my gas mileage, and too bad to those IDIOTS who don't have just 1 SUV but 2 or even 3...

I'd agree with the utilitarian if it were true, but that's not the case because you see whole families that drive SUVs.

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kutulu

It's funny how people are amazed by the gas prices while they fill up their gas guzzlers. If they want them, fine, but to go with that they should have to pay special fees associated with ownership of the vehicle. Maybe anyone driving a car that gets less than 15 mpg has to pay a 10 cent/mile tax and all of that money goes toward the development of alt fuel vehicles.

dogzilla

Other than personal satisfaction, I don't think most SUVs are justified. Very few are used offroad or in severe weather.

I think in most cases they are wasteful and damaging to the environment, and disagree with the tax breaks for the huge vehicles.

By choice, I drive a small car that gets about 40mpg and am able to get around in very nasty weather with little problem.

Derwood

I own a 2003 Honda CRV and I love it. Here is why:

- 24 miles/gallon
- Don't have to bend over to get the kid in the car (believe me, that's a big thing)
- Seats fold down to make a huge trunk.
- Plenty of room without the seats folded to put grocerys, etc.

I didn't buy it for the "image". My father in law has a huge Chevy that is just ridiculous. The CRV is smaller than a minivan.

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moonstrucksoul

we have a mid sized suv, a Honda Passport, we also have two kids and a dog. now having owned a truck with the xtracab, i can say that there was no way we could fit just us and the kids in it. there just isn't enough room without having a full-sized truck with a king cab. I think that some of the fullsized (and bigger)SUVs are a bit too much. now you don't to be all out 4x4ing to go take a little offroad.

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JStrider

well i drive an older ford explorer...
when im not too busy with school i like to camp,hike, and rock climb... especially when your rock climbing dont always know if a regular car will get ya all the way up the dirt road to the parking area...

lots of room... being in college ive got a bunch of stuff i gotta move everytime i go home or change dorms or whatever.... i can fit a full size couch in my explorer if i lay the seats down...

as for driving... ive seen lotsa people driving their SUVs the same way they would drive a little car... i dont ever do that... i get in my lane and stay there no weaving in and out of traffic or anything...

gas mileage... well yah... it sucks...

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kutulu

Those tax breaks were such a smack in the face to people who drive efficient vehicles.

irseg

Who the hell are you to decide how much space people need? Not your money, not your choice.

I'd never own an SUV myself because they're ugly, slow, and handle like crap. But I don't care if anyone else buys them.

Personally, I like my 4000 pound 16 mpg V8 Lincoln Mark VIII. It has the styling and driving characteristics of a car, with the weight and inefficiency of an SUV. So it's fun to drive but still pisses off self-righteous liberals who can't mind their own business. Perfect combo.

cj2112

I do use my SUV offroad, actually more than it's onroad, and I have yet to flip it...

rsl12

i've discussed this before, but here i go again.

the big issue with SUVs is kind of an abstract one, and maybe that's why people don't really respond to it. The SUV class of vehicles has a market in the United States only because there is a legal loophole that allows them to exist. This loophole allows vehicles over a certain weight (or loading capacity) to be exempt from a number of laws that normally affect automobiles, including safety, emission, and fuel efficiency standards. If SUVs were subject to the same rules as all other passenger cars on the road (including your ferraris and porshes), virtually none of them would be able to get a safety/emissions sticker.

That's my big beef with it. People are often selfish by nature, there's no helping that. But the government should do something to close up that loophole.

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rsl12

I should also note: if you were to close up that loophole, you'd make the SUVs even more expensive, a LOT less powerful (think of your acceleration when driving a u-haul), a lot less menacing looking (less tints on windows, lower-sitting headlights, probably lose the grills in front). if SUVs followed the normal laws, they would look more like minivans. and who wants a minivan?

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rsl12

oh irseg: i could just as easily say: i smoke, but i haven't gotten lung cancer ever. in the old days (old meaning 2-3 years ago) the SUVs did not have to pass any rollover tests, because of the loophole i described above. When an independent test was performed on a number of models, nearly all failed the rollover test. I personally have seen 3 accidents involving an SUV that flipped 180 degrees at least. i must admit, it was pretty cool seeing such big cars flip. like i was at a movie stunt or something.

I know that congress was trying to pass a law to address this *one* issue (rollovers) and not others. I don't know what's happened since.

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The_wall

Whoa take a chill pill man. Who are you to question my ability to judge how much space people need!

I just feel people don't need that much space in a car, now you might come up with some uncommon example of when someone needs that much space, but quite frankly I don't care. We got by without these huge cars for a very long time, I don't see how all of a sudden theres now a need for this space.

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flamingdog

I dunno, it's hard not to generalise, but it seems like SUV owners always justify their disproportionate usage of finite fuel resources and general annoyance to other people with a massive sense of entitlement and a bit more money than sense. And tax breaks for them? Jesus, that's fucked.

Cynthetiq

from a tilted motors post that I posted before...

that loophole isn't a loophole it's a freaking tunnel...
that said... Subaru is now trying to classify the Legacy as a light truck.

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Nefir

Personally, I do not mind the SUVs which are used as intended - carrying large loads, crossing difficult terrain, etc.

However, what really gets to me is the "Luxury SUV" plaguing the streets of NYC - Isn't that an oxymoron? Why do people insist on driving a fuel-guzzling behemoth when even regular cars have trouble fitting in?

They could have easily gotten that same amount of "luxury" without putting everyone else in danger.

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sailor

Me neither. I drive an SUV, and so does my dad--but we both tow boats around. Try dragging a 3000 pound boat behind your Civic, it doesnt work so well.

However, it has gotten out of control. I dont mind people driving them so much--people like room in their cars, and SUVs are starting to take the place of the stationwagon and minivan, which is fine--but there needs to be some regulation on them. As it is, like Cynthetiq posted, they arent regulated like cars as far as emissions go, and thats no good. They should be subject to the same rules that other cars on--its not like most of them are even built on truck frames anymore.

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StephenSa

Don't really like SUV's. I know some people drive them for the "macho" thing but personally I just see them as bloated silly looking station wagons. Still, if you have a job that needs a giant station wagon, or haul lots of people around on a regular basis I suppose I can understand that. The utilitarian versions I understand better than the giant super expensive ones. Why would anyone want a Mercedes SUV? There is nothing sport or utilitarian about that, just an expensive, dolled up, rather large station wagon. Then of course are the SUV drivers that feel entitled to take up two parking spaces right in front of the parking lot. If you need the space at least have some decency and park FAR OUT in the lot. Leave the close up spaces for the elderly, or expectant mothers, the handicapped and the like. Also, as someone noted before, if you are going to drive a giant station wagon then learn to drive it well and don't just ride behind the steering wheel expecting the world to get out of your way. The height of some of these things makes it hard for them to see smaller cars beside them so they must be extra careful and LOOK, then USE YOUR TURN SIGNAL, then manuever your car into the other lane so as not to cause an accident. Overall I don't see what the fun of owning one would be if you didn't actually do a lot of off roading.

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Cynthetiq

30 years... an increase of 5mpg.

i'm finished.

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Holo

My beefs:

Most owners dont' know how to park a car let alone an Excursion.

Majorly reduced visibility when behind or beside them, even in my minivan which sits at least 8" higher than a car.

The "I'm a tank and I'll run you over" attitude they have when on the road.

The obvious status thing...being proud of owning a covered truck with power windows and heated seats is silly to me. You want anonymous ppl to think you're a better person buy a BMW or Jag. At least I can see around those. Richie SUVs make me think of the Beverly Hillbilies.




I really don't care much about the gas thing...it costs me $35 now to fill my minivan, and it woulda cost more to power my big ass Crown Vic I used to have. I dont buy the "I pollute the environment less than you so I'm better" attitude. You still pollute it by driving your vehicle. The trucks that deliver your goods to stores which you consume burn and spew much worse. Fact is, once they're here they're not going away, and you can't stop ppl from getting things that make them look good to ppl who don't care in the first place, and annoy the rest.

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WarWagon

If you're towing with an SUV, fine. If not, the only thing I hate worse than an SUV, is an SUV being driven by someone talking on their cell phone.

:::OshnSoul:::

Although they chew up gas like hell, we decided to get one for our monster dog.
SUV's are nice except for the fact that they are gas-guzzlers. I would never drive an Expedition or Suburban, though. Full-size SUV's seem pointless- I would just be a minivan mom at that point. But our Honda Passport suits us well for having a large dog.

merkerguitars

Well I don't own one but mom does....and she gets alot of use out of it. Why does she get alot of use outta it?

1. Being able to carry cargo (she carrys about 20-50 50lb bags of milk replacer and since the bags are made out of paper...a truck bed wouldn't (dont' give me that excuse of a topper for a pickup)

2.. 4wd when wisconsin gets snowy she needs it...also we use it do drive around back of the house to haul equipment.

3. Good towing power....pulls the boat.

4. we do offroad with it....perfect for going hunting.

Yes there are alot of prissy people that drive them and feel "more secure in them" yes SUV's have there use but alot of people don't use them for what you can do with them, most people could do fine with a normal car, but hey it's america and we love our freedom

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irseg

If you want to donate cars to everyone in America, go right ahead and be the judge of how much space and what kind of vehicle you think they need. It's your money, you can do what you want with it.

Until then, it's a moot point since how people choose to spend their money that they work for is none of your, my, or anyone else's business!

And while you mentioned "huge cars", cars from the 40s-70s were far bigger than they are today. A modern-day Crown Victoria would have been considered a midsize car (if that) back in the 60s. The cars people actually want were legislated out of existence thanks to fuel economy laws. So they had to buy trucks to get the same kind of room and power they wanted in cars. Thing is, SUVs are a lot heavier and thirstier than a car of similar dimensions.

I think it's very likely that if the government didn't try to force us into undersized, underpowered cars, people wouldn't have to turn to SUVs and the roads wouldn't be full of Escalades and Navigators. Something to think about.

Cynthetiq

right.. and no regulations on how the manufacturers have to manufacture their products? gimme a break.

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rsl12

Yeah Ireg!! If I want to use leaded gasoline in my own personal goddamn car, who is the government to tell me I can't!! People should mind their own goddamn business and use whatever fucking gasoline they want to.

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sailor

I cant tell if this is sarcastic or not... Ill assume its not.

The reason the government can tell us what kind of gas we can and cant use is because of what those other forms of gasoline do. Leaded gasoline spews lead out into the environment. Think about that for a second--its lead. Its poisonous. Spewing it out into the air in vast quantities isnt a good thing. When you get sick from it, when your dog dies from it, when your kid dies from it, maybe you will start to think about it. I suspect you would be raising all kind of stink if your nextdoor neighbor decided to go bury some radioactive material in his backyard. This is the same thing--your actions are affecting people other than yourself.

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Peryn

"quote:
Originally posted by sailor

Cynthetiq posted, they arent regulated like cars as far as emissions go, and thats no good. They should be subject to the same rules that other cars on--its not like most of them are even built on truck frames anymore.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

30 years... an increase of 5mpg.

i'm finished."

Fuel economy and emissions dont necesarily go hand in hand. Look at Europe. Good mileage cars, terrible emissions. Mileage may not have increased much, but emissions have dropped drastically over the last 30 years. SUVs are still regulated as far as emissions go. They have legal limits just like cars (though admittedly higher). Even deisels are beginning to be smog regulated. They may suck up a lot of fuel, but they continue to burn it cleaner and cleaner.

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MSD

If you're willing to pay extra for gas and learn to drive safely and responsibly, I have no problem with you owning an SUV.

I don't have to like it, but I have no right to tell you what to do.

Yeah, if I get a tax credit for my commute to school in the smallest car I fit in. I get 15mpg anyway, why not get a Ferrari, or maybe an Escalade, or go up to 20mpg and get myself a Maybach 57.

bermuDa

I live in california, where there's little excuse for anyone in the city to be driving such a ridiculous behemoth as an Explorer or a Hummer. The only times anyone really NEEDS something like that is when they're towing something, going camping, transporting medium sized furniture/equipment/lumber/etc, or carting a platoon of marines around. Everyone I see on the road in an SUV has NO BUSINESS driving one; especially girls in their 20's driving to school and doing their makeup (or talking on the cell phone, i see WAY too much of this). They don't respect their vehicle, they don't respect the road, they don't respect other drivers, and they don't respect the environment.

I know it's not like this everywhere, but where I live, SUV's are an abomination.

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kutulu

No matter how much cleaner the emissions from the SUVs get, they are still spewing out CO2, which is a greenhouse gas. That will never change (of course if you ask Bush, CO2 doesn't matter)

The extra demand created by all the low-mileage vehicles results in higher costs at the pump for everyone. I'm sick of paying $30 to fill up my fucking Celica because selfish people consume 2/3 more gasoline to go the same distance that I do. How much cheaper would gas be if they had a vehicle that got only 25 mpg?