SUVs: A Rugged Right or Real Life Carmageddon?
 

Having recently finished reading the excellent High and Mighty by Keith Bradsher, I thought I'd enquire as to how many of you drive such a vehicle. I'd also like to start a reasoned debate about the merits and pitfalls of these machines.
Just to kick things off, I'll list what I perceive to be potential advantages:

- Adventurous, outdoor image;
- Lofty driving position gives a good view over traffic, over fences and hedges;
- Increased ability offroad and in poor weather conditions;
- Increased ability to intimidate other road users out of one's way;
- Pre-eminence of Domestic (U.S.) manufacturers in this segment - a patriotic choice;
- Extensive tax-break benefits (entire purchase price can be written off over a certain weight threshold(?));
- Safer for occupants when in collision with a vehicle of lesser weight;
- One steps up into an SUV, and sits with one's feet underneath instead of stretched out in front;
- Large carrying capacity;
- Very handy for towing.

That's all I can think of for now. The downsides are manifold, but being a lifelong and confirmed lowrider I'd prefer not to get on my high horse just yet.
Over to you, TFP:)

I dislike them. I feel they are getting waaaaay too big, and people just don't need that space. When I see someone drive in one of the huge SUV's (like the hummer and what not) I can't help but laugh at them. Not to mention all the gas they waste, you could drive 2 or 3 cars worth of gas on one suv alone.

I agree. To damn big with crappy gas mileage. The phrase "jack of all trades. master of none comes to mind". Buy either a truck, van, or a passenger car. Not these hybrid vehicles.

I'm not a big fan of cars in general...I just don't understand why people get so into them. Such a waste of money to me. I just want something cheap that gets me where I need to go. I really can't stand SUVs. They are so damn big, and most of them don't really even have all that much extra room inside. Unless you are doing some offroad driving where you need 4x4, there's no point IMO.

Back, oh, 15 years ago or so, all new cars were required to have 3rd brake lights. The cool thing about these brake lights was that you could see it 3 cars ahead of you, because all the windshields on the cars were the same height, and this would give you advance warning that there might be a problem ahead.

Now, with an SUV ahead of me, all I see through its rear window is the SUV's ceiling. SUVs reduce my safety level by simply existing.

the off road excuse pisses me off... no one that has an suv uses it for that purpose and if they did they would flip the piece of shit because they are not made for such things.(i know a guy who went mudding in his new $40000 piece of shit and fliped it.)

buy a truck, they are actually functional.

I don't own one, but neither do I have a problem with them. My thought is this; who the hell am I to decide what type of vehicle you need, and subsequently, should drive? No, I'm not ready to go there.

Personally, I think that SUV's started out being utilitarian. That, in my opinion, was a good thing. Now, it seems more status symbol than anything. I mean, for crying out loud, if your buying an SUV for its' versatility, rugedness and usefullness...why, in the hell, would you buy a Lexus, Lincoln, Mercedes, etc.? Wouldn't you be afraid of getting the tires dirty? I don't get the mindset. Still...none of my business.

truth....

why must you insist on always being right?

They are indeed an interesting vehicle, and i have opinions about various aspects of them on both sides of the love/hate issue.

As for the car itself, as long as they continue to pass emissions, im ok with them. Get as many of em, and as big as you want, but your car should still pass emissions laws.

The drivers : well, thats a whole different story. The drivers of the behemoths are often the worst aspect. Personally, i think you should need a separate lisence class for vehicles with a GVWR above 5500 lbs or so. People dont understand the differences in a huge beast ovver a nimble little econobox. They dont drive like they recognize they are significantly larger, and thus inconvenience everyone else. Like when they take 10 minutes to park because they have no idea how their car handles. I think if the drivers would get a clue, then there would be a lot less hating of the vehicle itself.

Multi-Terrain vehicles : I enjoy a good bit of off-roading here and there, but nothing spectacular. Mainly cause i cant afford to upgrade the Jeep, but not due to lack of desire. Dont knock it till ya try it. A Lot of people go on and on about how you dont need a big car, or to lift it, or whatever. Yer right, you dont need it, but its damned fun. If, as the driver, when on the street, you know how to drive, it doesn't hurt the people on the road, and you have a great weekend hobby. If you want to carry more than a person, maybe a person and a half, with you, the SUV is the only real option. It lets you still go out and adventure with the family, maybe some kids, take your dogs out, who knows.

Hybrid vehicles : As a combination of aspects of many cars and trucks, SUV's provide a very popular niche category of abilities that, at the moment, only they can provide. As someone said, they are a jack of all trades, master of none. Why? Because they dont need to be. They can give you the durability, ruggedness, and off-road capabilities of a truck. The seating capacity for freinds and family of a minivan ( or more ). Many now even give you the ride quality of a Caddy or other sedan. The towing capacity of a semi, and the high seating capacity of...well...umm... and air traffic control tower. If you knew someone that was in the market for a new car, and wanted to be comfy on the road, haul tons of people, tow their toys, and take them off the trail into the mountains, what would you recommend? Even if you dont like them, yous still hafta recomend an SUV of some sort for one reason - they are the only vehicle to fulfill all of their needs. Many people want to be able to handle anything that comes their way, but they dont want to necessarily be able to dominate it. Hence it works to their benefit to be able to have a jack of all trades.

Size : While i like their ability to almost be their own form of Mass Transit with their seating capabilities, Personally, I am getting annoyed with the size, and in some cases, shape. When you are in one, it is indeed nice to be able to see what is going on around you. The problem is when you do it at the cost of everyone else. Suddenly nobody can see around you, and a minor accident situation can become a big problem. In the case of the H2, the side of the car dont slant in toward the middle at all. Which means it is so tall you cant see over/thru it, and so wide you have no chance of seing around it. To me, that is a problem. What makes them so sure their safety/visibility is so much more important than mine.

Crash Safety : This one is gets me on both sides of the issue. Naturally, in a bigger car you are going to be hurt less than the other, smaller vehicle. As much as i might not like, such is life (unless you get hit too hard). I can accept this. Even on the large cars, there seems to be a reasonable amount of bumper compatability. So in a crash, most of the bumper of the very large car will still hit the bumper/trunk/crash area of a smaller car. Granted, its still more dangerous, but at least you still have those areas designed to take an impact their to protect you. Its when people raise their SUVs to a point where there is no bumper compatability that i get pissed. If i get hit by an suv and die, so be it. But ill be damned if i sit by and someone i know gets killed by an SUV because they lifted it and their bumper totally missed the crash zone in my car. You can bet your ass they'd get a lawsuit or two thrown at em in a heartbeat if their lift kit allowed them to go through a window.

Bah, gotta go to class...but thats my take on the whole SUV issue.

push up gas prices :) I'm happy with my gas mileage, and too bad to those IDIOTS who don't have just 1 SUV but 2 or even 3...

I'd agree with the utilitarian if it were true, but that's not the case because you see whole families that drive SUVs.

It's funny how people are amazed by the gas prices while they fill up their gas guzzlers. If they want them, fine, but to go with that they should have to pay special fees associated with ownership of the vehicle. Maybe anyone driving a car that gets less than 15 mpg has to pay a 10 cent/mile tax and all of that money goes toward the development of alt fuel vehicles.

Other than personal satisfaction, I don't think most SUVs are justified. Very few are used offroad or in severe weather.

I think in most cases they are wasteful and damaging to the environment, and disagree with the tax breaks for the huge vehicles.

By choice, I drive a small car that gets about 40mpg and am able to get around in very nasty weather with little problem.

I own a 2003 Honda CRV and I love it. Here is why:

- 24 miles/gallon
- Don't have to bend over to get the kid in the car (believe me, that's a big thing)
- Seats fold down to make a huge trunk.
- Plenty of room without the seats folded to put grocerys, etc.

I didn't buy it for the "image". My father in law has a huge Chevy that is just ridiculous. The CRV is smaller than a minivan.

we have a mid sized suv, a Honda Passport, we also have two kids and a dog. now having owned a truck with the xtracab, i can say that there was no way we could fit just us and the kids in it. there just isn't enough room without having a full-sized truck with a king cab. I think that some of the fullsized (and bigger)SUVs are a bit too much. now you don't to be all out 4x4ing to go take a little offroad.

well i drive an older ford explorer...
when im not too busy with school i like to camp,hike, and rock climb... especially when your rock climbing dont always know if a regular car will get ya all the way up the dirt road to the parking area...

lots of room... being in college ive got a bunch of stuff i gotta move everytime i go home or change dorms or whatever.... i can fit a full size couch in my explorer if i lay the seats down...

as for driving... ive seen lotsa people driving their SUVs the same way they would drive a little car... i dont ever do that... i get in my lane and stay there no weaving in and out of traffic or anything...

gas mileage... well yah... it sucks...

Those tax breaks were such a smack in the face to people who drive efficient vehicles.

Who the hell are you to decide how much space people need? Not your money, not your choice.

I'd never own an SUV myself because they're ugly, slow, and handle like crap. But I don't care if anyone else buys them.

Personally, I like my 4000 pound 16 mpg V8 Lincoln Mark VIII. It has the styling and driving characteristics of a car, with the weight and inefficiency of an SUV. So it's fun to drive but still pisses off self-righteous liberals who can't mind their own business. Perfect combo. :)

I do use my SUV offroad, actually more than it's onroad, and I have yet to flip it...

http://myweb.cableone.net/msjcichon/blazer.jpg

i've discussed this before, but here i go again.

the big issue with SUVs is kind of an abstract one, and maybe that's why people don't really respond to it. The SUV class of vehicles has a market in the United States only because there is a legal loophole that allows them to exist. This loophole allows vehicles over a certain weight (or loading capacity) to be exempt from a number of laws that normally affect automobiles, including safety, emission, and fuel efficiency standards. If SUVs were subject to the same rules as all other passenger cars on the road (including your ferraris and porshes), virtually none of them would be able to get a safety/emissions sticker.

That's my big beef with it. People are often selfish by nature, there's no helping that. But the government should do something to close up that loophole.

I should also note: if you were to close up that loophole, you'd make the SUVs even more expensive, a LOT less powerful (think of your acceleration when driving a u-haul), a lot less menacing looking (less tints on windows, lower-sitting headlights, probably lose the grills in front). if SUVs followed the normal laws, they would look more like minivans. and who wants a minivan?

oh irseg: i could just as easily say: i smoke, but i haven't gotten lung cancer ever. in the old days (old meaning 2-3 years ago) the SUVs did not have to pass any rollover tests, because of the loophole i described above. When an independent test was performed on a number of models, nearly all failed the rollover test. I personally have seen 3 accidents involving an SUV that flipped 180 degrees at least. i must admit, it was pretty cool seeing such big cars flip. like i was at a movie stunt or something.

I know that congress was trying to pass a law to address this *one* issue (rollovers) and not others. I don't know what's happened since.

Whoa take a chill pill man. Who are you to question my ability to judge how much space people need!

I just feel people don't need that much space in a car, now you might come up with some uncommon example of when someone needs that much space, but quite frankly I don't care. We got by without these huge cars for a very long time, I don't see how all of a sudden theres now a need for this space.

I dunno, it's hard not to generalise, but it seems like SUV owners always justify their disproportionate usage of finite fuel resources and general annoyance to other people with a massive sense of entitlement and a bit more money than sense. And tax breaks for them? Jesus, that's fucked.

from a tilted motors post that I posted before...

that loophole isn't a loophole it's a freaking tunnel...
that said... Subaru is now trying to classify the Legacy as a light truck.

Personally, I do not mind the SUVs which are used as intended - carrying large loads, crossing difficult terrain, etc.

However, what really gets to me is the "Luxury SUV" plaguing the streets of NYC - Isn't that an oxymoron? Why do people insist on driving a fuel-guzzling behemoth when even regular cars have trouble fitting in?

They could have easily gotten that same amount of "luxury" without putting everyone else in danger.

Me neither. I drive an SUV, and so does my dad--but we both tow boats around. Try dragging a 3000 pound boat behind your Civic, it doesnt work so well.

However, it has gotten out of control. I dont mind people driving them so much--people like room in their cars, and SUVs are starting to take the place of the stationwagon and minivan, which is fine--but there needs to be some regulation on them. As it is, like Cynthetiq posted, they arent regulated like cars as far as emissions go, and thats no good. They should be subject to the same rules that other cars on--its not like most of them are even built on truck frames anymore.

Don't really like SUV's. I know some people drive them for the "macho" thing but personally I just see them as bloated silly looking station wagons. Still, if you have a job that needs a giant station wagon, or haul lots of people around on a regular basis I suppose I can understand that. The utilitarian versions I understand better than the giant super expensive ones. Why would anyone want a Mercedes SUV? There is nothing sport or utilitarian about that, just an expensive, dolled up, rather large station wagon. Then of course are the SUV drivers that feel entitled to take up two parking spaces right in front of the parking lot. If you need the space at least have some decency and park FAR OUT in the lot. Leave the close up spaces for the elderly, or expectant mothers, the handicapped and the like. Also, as someone noted before, if you are going to drive a giant station wagon then learn to drive it well and don't just ride behind the steering wheel expecting the world to get out of your way. The height of some of these things makes it hard for them to see smaller cars beside them so they must be extra careful and LOOK, then USE YOUR TURN SIGNAL, then manuever your car into the other lane so as not to cause an accident. Overall I don't see what the fun of owning one would be if you didn't actually do a lot of off roading.

30 years... an increase of 5mpg.

i'm finished.

My beefs:

Most owners dont' know how to park a car let alone an Excursion.

Majorly reduced visibility when behind or beside them, even in my minivan which sits at least 8" higher than a car.

The "I'm a tank and I'll run you over" attitude they have when on the road.

The obvious status thing...being proud of owning a covered truck with power windows and heated seats is silly to me. You want anonymous ppl to think you're a better person buy a BMW or Jag. At least I can see around those. Richie SUVs make me think of the Beverly Hillbilies.




I really don't care much about the gas thing...it costs me $35 now to fill my minivan, and it woulda cost more to power my big ass Crown Vic I used to have. I dont buy the "I pollute the environment less than you so I'm better" attitude. You still pollute it by driving your vehicle. The trucks that deliver your goods to stores which you consume burn and spew much worse. Fact is, once they're here they're not going away, and you can't stop ppl from getting things that make them look good to ppl who don't care in the first place, and annoy the rest.

If you're towing with an SUV, fine. If not, the only thing I hate worse than an SUV, is an SUV being driven by someone talking on their cell phone.

Although they chew up gas like hell, we decided to get one for our monster dog.
SUV's are nice except for the fact that they are gas-guzzlers. I would never drive an Expedition or Suburban, though. Full-size SUV's seem pointless- I would just be a minivan mom at that point. But our Honda Passport suits us well for having a large dog.

Well I don't own one but mom does....and she gets alot of use out of it. Why does she get alot of use outta it?

1. Being able to carry cargo (she carrys about 20-50 50lb bags of milk replacer and since the bags are made out of paper...a truck bed wouldn't (dont' give me that excuse of a topper for a pickup)

2.. 4wd when wisconsin gets snowy she needs it...also we use it do drive around back of the house to haul equipment.

3. Good towing power....pulls the boat.

4. we do offroad with it....perfect for going hunting.

Yes there are alot of prissy people that drive them and feel "more secure in them" yes SUV's have there use but alot of people don't use them for what you can do with them, most people could do fine with a normal car, but hey it's america and we love our freedom

If you want to donate cars to everyone in America, go right ahead and be the judge of how much space and what kind of vehicle you think they need. It's your money, you can do what you want with it.

Until then, it's a moot point since how people choose to spend their money that they work for is none of your, my, or anyone else's business!

And while you mentioned "huge cars", cars from the 40s-70s were far bigger than they are today. A modern-day Crown Victoria would have been considered a midsize car (if that) back in the 60s. The cars people actually want were legislated out of existence thanks to fuel economy laws. So they had to buy trucks to get the same kind of room and power they wanted in cars. Thing is, SUVs are a lot heavier and thirstier than a car of similar dimensions.

I think it's very likely that if the government didn't try to force us into undersized, underpowered cars, people wouldn't have to turn to SUVs and the roads wouldn't be full of Escalades and Navigators. Something to think about.

right.. and no regulations on how the manufacturers have to manufacture their products? gimme a break.

Yeah Ireg!! If I want to use leaded gasoline in my own personal goddamn car, who is the government to tell me I can't!! People should mind their own goddamn business and use whatever fucking gasoline they want to.

I cant tell if this is sarcastic or not... Ill assume its not.

The reason the government can tell us what kind of gas we can and cant use is because of what those other forms of gasoline do. Leaded gasoline spews lead out into the environment. Think about that for a second--its lead. Its poisonous. Spewing it out into the air in vast quantities isnt a good thing. When you get sick from it, when your dog dies from it, when your kid dies from it, maybe you will start to think about it. I suspect you would be raising all kind of stink if your nextdoor neighbor decided to go bury some radioactive material in his backyard. This is the same thing--your actions are affecting people other than yourself.

"quote:
Originally posted by sailor

Cynthetiq posted, they arent regulated like cars as far as emissions go, and thats no good. They should be subject to the same rules that other cars on--its not like most of them are even built on truck frames anymore.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

30 years... an increase of 5mpg.

i'm finished."

Fuel economy and emissions dont necesarily go hand in hand. Look at Europe. Good mileage cars, terrible emissions. Mileage may not have increased much, but emissions have dropped drastically over the last 30 years. SUVs are still regulated as far as emissions go. They have legal limits just like cars (though admittedly higher). Even deisels are beginning to be smog regulated. They may suck up a lot of fuel, but they continue to burn it cleaner and cleaner.

If you're willing to pay extra for gas and learn to drive safely and responsibly, I have no problem with you owning an SUV.

I don't have to like it, but I have no right to tell you what to do.

Yeah, if I get a tax credit for my commute to school in the smallest car I fit in. I get 15mpg anyway, why not get a Ferrari, or maybe an Escalade, or go up to 20mpg and get myself a Maybach 57.

I live in california, where there's little excuse for anyone in the city to be driving such a ridiculous behemoth as an Explorer or a Hummer. The only times anyone really NEEDS something like that is when they're towing something, going camping, transporting medium sized furniture/equipment/lumber/etc, or carting a platoon of marines around. Everyone I see on the road in an SUV has NO BUSINESS driving one; especially girls in their 20's driving to school and doing their makeup (or talking on the cell phone, i see WAY too much of this). They don't respect their vehicle, they don't respect the road, they don't respect other drivers, and they don't respect the environment.

I know it's not like this everywhere, but where I live, SUV's are an abomination.

No matter how much cleaner the emissions from the SUVs get, they are still spewing out CO2, which is a greenhouse gas. That will never change (of course if you ask Bush, CO2 doesn't matter)

The extra demand created by all the low-mileage vehicles results in higher costs at the pump for everyone. I'm sick of paying $30 to fill up my fucking Celica because selfish people consume 2/3 more gasoline to go the same distance that I do. How much cheaper would gas be if they had a vehicle that got only 25 mpg?

Yes, every car is spewing out CO2. The more the better. The more CO2 you're spewing out, the more efficient your combustion is. The optimal complete combustion would only put out CO2 and H2O. Those are the 'good' gasses to be producing a lot of. Its the hydrocarbons, NOx, and CO that are the biggest problems.

I don't know about better offroad capability. Last winter I made a travel game out of counting the SUV's in the ditch.

So they only need it in some situations. Because you dont need something all the time doesn't mean you shouldn't have it. Its in our nature to use things we dont need. Got the v6 in your Honda instead of the I4? Theres little excuse for you to be driving some rediculously overpowered car when there is a cheaper more eco-freindly engine option. Went for the leather? Absolutely no reason the cloth interior wouldn't have been sufficient to keep your ass in teh seat, and it would have saved a cow and some production costs.

Society is full of crap we dont NEED. But who are you, or anyone, to say that because they dont need it all the time they shouldn't buy it? Im sure neither you, i, or anyone else on this board is living the most minimalistic lifestlye. So why should we go around bashing peoples choices of unnecesarry objects? Would you rather they get a small car, and instead run a bunch of computers, tvs, and A/C all day? They would be as much of a problem to society and nature. But hey, it doesn't directly affect you, so its ok?

Maybe this turned into an irrelevant rant, but i just cant fathom how anyone can presume to know enough about those around them to judge what they should be allowed to buy/drive.

Stupid
Useless
Vehicle

Isn't that what SUV stands for?

I'm not sure if I hate them because they are always in my way (courier driver), or if it's because I don't have one.

I drive a 4-cylinder '89 mercury tracer hatchback with cloth seats and an AC that doesn't work. I may not live a minimalist lifestyle but I use the resources available to me as I need them. A small car is enough to get me to where I need to go, and if I need some towing power or cargo space, I borrow my dad's ancient van or get a friend with a truck to help.

There's a difference between meeting your needs, opting for luxury, and going completely overboard and buying an SUV, citing features that one never uses as a reason for the purchase.

And SUVs do directly affect us, as mentioned by others in this thread. They are large, hard to see around, and at least in my experience are driven carelessly because the drivers think they are safer behind the wheel of a large obnoxious vehicle. I have friends who own SUVs and drive this way, and I have almost been side swiped twice by some careless asshole in an SUV who doesn't believe in blind spots.

my only problem with a suv..

why would someone buy a luxury suv? oxymoron? why trash it offroad.. oh wait..

i have yet to see a real life suv "off-road" seriously and i go everywhere you can think with my concrete jobs..

all i see is stuck up white women talking to god knows who on a cell phone while they inch over in my lane.. then look as if i did something wrong by honking the horn...

why i bought a pink 2 foot dildo that is "loose" i wave it at them when they look at me pissed when i blow the horn. .. makes my day.. (although i havent been pulled over by a cop yet.. i expect to someday)

and yeah i would beat a person with it if they tried that road rage with me....

slap around and make them call me suzy

This thread does a good job showing how news media brain washes people.
People blaming a type of vehicle for a problem started before cars were invented.

I'm not sure about the Escalade, but the Ferrari and Maybachs have a luxury tax associated with them. Which was a concession to the CAFE standards during the late 80s.

I think you'll need to explain a little more.

Another point that needs to be made: even though you may use your SUV for what it is meant for (in my case, towing), it still gets used as a primary car. I, and most other people, cannot afford to buy two cars for two seperate tasks, and as such, must make sue with what will fulfill both tasks: again, in my case, an SUV. My Explorer gets driven around town, on the highway, and wherever else more than it does towing. This is natural: I tow a boat a couple times a month. But when I need to tow that boat, nothing but a light truck will do.

Many of the people you see driving their SUVs around town may be in the same situation. They may have to use their cars a few times a month for what it is used for, but the rest of the time, it has to serve as their primary vehicle, because they cannot afford another one. I know I cant.

Now, that said, I think (hell, I know) the vast majority of people dont use the SU for what it is used for. I just make the point that because you dont see them actually using it to its capabilities doesnt mean that they arent.

Maybe they should pass a law saying you can only buy them if you have a purpose....sorta like in wisconsin where if you own a ATV and want to drive it on the road for farm purposes....... but no way that would work....cause the car companies make big money out of anyone buying them :(

I couldn't care less what other people drive except when they inconvenience me... or complain for no reason - the SUV drivers here in AZ all want the lanes widened and the parking spaces made larger because they can't manage to maneuver their huge a$$ vehicles into their spots. Annoying - if you can't drive it, then don't.

On the other hand, my true hybrid vehicle- gasoline electric civic hybrid, I get 40 miles per gallon, it is an ultra low emmissions vehicle, AND I got a $2000 tax deduction for buying it... so there are some benefits to the little car now and then. Oh, and I can fit myself, husband, baby in carseat, great dane and german shepard all in it, although it does get a little crowded :) And yes, I do feel good driving it, especially when it costs me $20 every three weeks to fill the tank and everyone else I know $50 a week to fill their suv's....

Or how about a requirement that people need a special licience to drive an SUV? We require seperate licences for motorcycles and semi trucks, why should SUVs be any different?

Um.. CO2 isnt really a bad thing. What do you think is coming out of your mouth every time you exhale.

I agree that, so long as you have a purpose for owning one, it's not really a problem. Personally, I don't like them and think that for a good 60% of all SUVs out there a station wagon would have been much more appropriate, especially now that AWD is coming of age. When I travel to Colorado, it makes sense that people there have SUVs; not for off-roading, but for very poor road conditions half the year. But I feel dismayed when those same SUVs are all over the roads here in Seattle, Washington. I'd say my biggest problem with SUVs is that they've managed to become status symbols, which ironically takes the Utility out of Sports Utility Vehicle.

Seriously, people: unless you plan on putting it to good use, get a wagon instead. Better safety, better gas mileage, better performance, more comfort, comparable cargo area (unless we're talking about behemoths like Suburban), and just all 'round better deal.

I'm waiting for liberals to start bitching about people who live in bigger houses that require more energy. "Waaaahhh! Why do you need ALL THAT SPACE? Do you realize how much energy that wastes? 600 square feet is more than enough for anybody!"

If you think it sounds ridiculous, the idea of people suing McDonalds for getting fat sounded ridiculous 5 years ago, too.

Well duh, they're just taking advantage of their superior offroad capabilities! :lol:

I am referring to the carbon issue.

I think you'll need to explain a little more.

;)

aaah but the difference there is that the larger the size of your property the MORE it costs to maintain it from the heat and AC, to electricity and water, and finally, PROPERTY TAXES.

No liberal in his right mind would kill that golden goose.

I think you have liberal and tree-hugging-hippie confused.

It seems this argument is going to go on forever...

I drive a full size luxury SUV and I wouldn't have it any other way.
People complain about the use of a luxury SUV, but whats wrong with doing something one would normally do in luxury? There are luxury cars. Maybe I feel like hauling around cargo in comfort. Or feel like sitting on some nice heated leather seats during my off roading adventures. People pay for luxury and I don't see luxury SUV's as anything else. How many cars can fit 8 passengers + luggage + towing? I don't tow that often, but the first two I do a lot of.

Now, the safety issue. I agree that SUV's are more dangerous. And I wouldn't be against having a seperate license for an SUV. But at the same time, there are probably more bad drivers then bad SUV drivers. SUV's just stand out more so you see when they do something stupid. I am not anti or pro SUV, I am anti-stupid.

As for my occupants being safer then someone I hit? Not trying to sound mean, but my safety is more important to me then someone else's. I'm not about to give up any safety for me or my occupants.

Gas mileage is kinda crappy, but some older sedans get the same gas mileage. Why not ban them from the roads? I do wish my car had better mileage though. People who drive SUV's must feel its benefits outweigh the cost and thats how I feel. Toyota & Lexus does have those new hybrid SUV's coming out soon so maybe SUV's will go in that direction. *fingers crossed they will make my model in hybrid soon*

I understand that people aren't going to change their stance on this issue, but at least try to understand the point of views of others.

-Robert

I drive one for work. An SUV is just about the perfect news vehicle. Room for 4 (or 5 if you squeeze) and a place in the back for all your gear. The 4wd helps in the winter and on back roads that you sometimes have to drive to get to a story.

For personal use, it's a civic all the way. The news truck gets 15mpg. Especially with fuel prices today, that's horrible. I'll take my 40mpg car any day of the week ;)

Not to sound mean, but the Bradshaw book mentioned by the person that started the threat notes that the SUV marketing strategy for a number of car manufacturers is to sell to people who actually buy such an argument. It's been a while since I read the book, but if I remember right, their description of the target consumers are people who have recently been married and do not feel secure with themselves or their marriage. The 'gimmick' used by salespeople is to ask them, "if you were in a car accident, who would you rather have survive, you or the other people?"

The kind of people that buy into all that are the people who automotive manufacturers are targeting in selling SUVs. I don't think that comes as a surprise to many people.

humm, never thought of it that way and it makes sense.
But wouldn't it also make sense that *some* SUV's are more protective in that way since they have a beefier frame and have more car around to crumple then a small car. My mom ran my SUV into a highway guard rail at 60mph due to ice and it would have been alot worst if there wasn't all that car and strong frame (no frame damage btw :D) to take the hit. She shouldn't be driving something like that so carelessly :mad:. Some people do need to realise SUV's are not like a sedan, going back to the seperate license thing.
I can agree that being safer due to the size is a marketing thing (marketing departments == evil), since some SUV's out there are nothing more then supped up station wagons.

-Robert

plus the fact that it's a rather fatalistic view. "You're going to have a wreck anyway so you may as well surround yourself with something big enough to survive it."

My mentality is "I want a much more maneuverable vehicle so I can avoid the damn wreck in the first place."

my news truck is MUCH less stable than my civic. At the end of a day of work driving that thing around, I get into my civic and it feels like I'm in a friggin' indy car by comparison.

I feel the opposite about my car and the family civic :D
I guess everyone has their tastes.

-Robert

I expressed 3 opinions in that post. To which were you referring? ;)

I prefer to drive my SUV. It is more fun to drive then the Civic. Getting into the SUV after driving the Civic feels like I'm in a race car. The Civic can get the job done, but my car is just faster and more torquey (is that a word?).

-Robert

Yes, torquey is a word, and one of my favourites:)

After a weekend spent nursing my virus-addled home pc, I return to find...An interesting variety of views, expressed with commendable civility.

Cynthetiq, I had spotted this theme in motors and thought it would benefit from a wider airing. Such a thread topic probably seems like a shocking load of whinging to some, but I do think it is important to keep asking these questions. Thanks for your further input.

Robert, 1337haxor, I'd say the fact that your mum survived unscathed from her guardrail impact was sheer good luck. I'm very thankful she came out okay. Unfortunately, the fact that the centre of gravity on these machines is so much higher than with cars means that very often in such accidents the SUV is 'tripped' by the barrier. The resulting rollover accident leaves the weakest point of the car - the roof - to bear at least some of the impact.

Furthermore, the strong frame on most SUV's means that on impact with an unyeilding object such as a bridge support, there's nothing to spread the load of the collision, and the crash force is transfered directly to the vehicle occupants.
In side impacts with other cars that truck-derived ladder chassis takes on the form of a battering ram, travelling at around shoulder height to most other road users. Side impact protection on cars is minimal at best. Side airbags are good, but when that much pointy steel comes through the window at whatever speed they're not going to help.

SUV's are getting more and more popular. While the people with the money to buy them new tend to drive them carefully, soberly, as the SUV class gets longer in the tooth we're seeing huge numbers of Explorers, Yukons, Dakotas entering the second hand market within the reach of drivers with less idea of how to drive and less consideration for the potential consequences of their behaviour.

I can't say too much on the economy and environmental issues, driving as I do probably one of the most polluting vehicles with the lowest mpg on the road. I'm sorry about that...I'm selfish in many ways. I pay through the nose for the privilege, however; with gas prices here currently at the equivalent of $5.37 per gallon, filling up costs around $130 so I don't do it all that often...

The status quo constitutes a serious, and worsening problem for America's drivers and passengers alike. Seeing as the rest of us often end up with the vehicles and the tastes developed for the world's biggest market, it's a serious issue for us all.

there was a documentary I saw about a year ago that was very enlightening as to the popularity of SUV's. It wasn't even a car documentary - it was about how corporations can, with enough money, get the government to do damn near anything. Turns out when compact cars threatened to take over the market, and therefore reduce profits since no one's gonna pay as much for a Civic as they would for a DeVille, the American auto industry got the government to endorse some bullshit studies that said small cars are horribly unsafe. There were even PSA's run that encouraged people to be careful about buying a small car due to the supposed danger.

People took that idea to its logical conclusion that the bigger the car, the safer it is. That's one reason this idiotic myth that SUV's are so much safer than cars is around today.

`

I think you are talking about the FrontLine episode... I forgot about that...thanks for the reminder... and here's a link to the show http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/

some interesting points:

and

If you were going to be in a head-on collision between an Expedition and a Civic, which one would you rather be in? After all it shouldn't matter since weight doesn't make any difference right? :rolleyes:

http://www.hwysafety.org/safety_fact...ts/passveh.htm

Oh interesting, small cars have 117 accident deaths per million cars, and large cars have 58. Gee you're right, no difference there!

I think that the number one reason why SUV's are as popular as they are is the ridiculously low gasoline taxes in the US. Even with gas prices as 'high' as they are now, gas prices in the US are low compared to Europe and the developed parts of Asia.

It would be political suicide for a politician to suggest this, but its a way to make people who pollute more pay more. It'll also help to reduce your country's dependence on foreign oil.

Hmmm. Let's sit down and think about this real hard for about 5 seconds. Why do you suppose so many more deaths happen in small cars? Think maybe it's because people are buying giant land barges instead of normal sized cars? Think maybe those wonderful SUV's are killing people because of their size?

What SUV "safety" proponents are proposing is an arms race. Pretty soon nearly every car will be as big as an SUV, so NOW to be "safe" we've gotta start driving something bigger. Why not cut out the middle stuff and go straight to driving Kenworths? They're REALLY safe, right?

irseg,

good site, take note though that the passenger cars statistics are pretty stable, going up or down a small percentage.

Note the Pickup and SUV lines and there is steady figures of increasing deaths. I nod that it's probably because of increased sales of SUVs.

I own and drive a '92 Chev Suburban for the following reasons:

1. Low cost. It's actually cheaper to fill this gas guzzler than to buy a new/fuel efficient/fast car and pay large insurance on it due to my high risk age group.
2. Cargo Capacity. I do a lot of errands around the farm and i find that very often the truck will be completely full whether i'm carrying garbage, feed, Tack boxes, etc.
3. Towing capability. My dad and I love to go fishing, we often use the truck to tow the boat/trailer. Also it's used to tow horse trailers, and a flatbed trailer as well.
4. Room for the dog. Great danes take up a lot of space.
5. Safety. Max speed: 140 km/h acceleration: 0-100 in 17.5 seconds. long wheelbase. It's easy to be a defensive driver when it takes a full kilometer of road to pass someone on the highway.
6. Reliability. My truck is nearing 400 000 kilometers, and still starts up right away, and I can count on it to take me where I need to go, even in the depths of winter.

Some people get a lot of use out of their SUV's. Don't throw all SUV drivers into the same mold.

If somebody buys a car with a 6 cylinder engine instead of a 4 cylinder engine, it doesn't block my view of the road.

I own an Expedition. It fits my lifestyle. It hauls groceries, tows my trailer, seats 9 when family is in town and is 4X4. It gets locked in after the first snow and unless the roads are dry, stays locked in until breakup. It rarely goes off road, I have off-road vehicles for that. It is a 97 with 70k on it.

I wonder if people that dislike SUV's would prefer a little bit of their own mentality when it comes to music, jobs, and all the other things that make America a great place to live. People have a choice to drive a vehicle within their means and most people will drive one at the upper limit of their income. This can be for safety, comfort, climate, family size or even peer pressure.

I do not believe in tax breaks, safely manipulations or weight limits should exist for ANY private vehicle. Only commercial special purpose vehicles should be (intelligently) exempted.

Be glad that there is still freedom of choice in a vehicles. Without them, there would be no low-riders, rv's, classics, sports cars or motorcycles.

I believe that ANY vehicle can be driven by a moron and those pointing fingers at SUV's for poor driving skills should rethink their statements. If you have issues with SUV's, what is your real agenda?

Ford is working on a hybrid Explorer - so the fuel efficiency issue will be non-existent upon its debut.

I agree with Boo - freedom of choice is a wonderful thing and the government has no business favoring one lifestyle decision over another, in this or in any other area of one's life.

Perhaps, but the reality is that the vast majority of SUV owners have no need for them.

Quote:

I wonder if people that dislike SUV's would prefer a little bit of their own mentality when it comes to music, jobs, and all the other things that make America a great place to live.

Sure. I object to jobs, such as telemarketing, that are mainly an annoyance and have little or no redeeming values.

Quote:

People have a choice to drive a vehicle within their means and most people will drive one at the upper limit of their income. This can be for safety, comfort, climate, family size or even peer pressure.

Sure and if people to choose to act in a thoughtles and self-centered manner, I have the right to point it out.

Quote:

I believe that ANY vehicle can be driven by a moron

I'd rather have the morons in normal cars than SUV's.

Quote:

If you have issues with SUV's, what is your real agenda?

I don't like it when people inconvenience and endanger me to satisfy their own vanity.

Being from Colorado, I love this statement.

I currently have an SUV, not because of poor road conditions, but because I like to get the thing muddy on weekend, and well, if I flip the thing in the middle of no-where, my bad, that's my problem to get it out of there, and no one except for some rocks and trees will get hurt, but unlike some people I keep try and keep it on 3 wheels at least.

As far as people saying they have their SUV for adverse road conditions... I don't particularly like this statement, because the people with 4x4's are driving like their brakes work better on ice because they have a 4x4. Sorry, but their brakes are going to stop them just as well if not worse cause of all that weight as my old fwd corolla. I just don't like seeing people in their ford explorers or what not, cruising by at the speed limit on an icy day, cause "they have 4wd". Now, if they say adverse road conditions as in the horrible pothole filled roads that Colorado has 11 months out of the year, yes, I can understand that. Too many of my import car friends have bought a fresh set of 18's, with low profiles and within a week I hear them complaining about how they hit a pothole and completely ruined a rim, and want to move to California or somewhere where the roads are decent.

I figure to each their own, but I just wish people would spend more time getting to know their cars on various road conditions. I learned to drive on ice with my dad, we'd go to a vacant lot, and he taught me how to go into a spin, and still control the car enough to dodge the light posts. Yeah, we crushed a fender, but luckily it was an '83 Nissan Sentra with 8 different colors already, and junkyards were our friend.

I think everyone with the means should buy a $300 beater to learn how to drive in adverse conditions.

I just don't see the point in getting worked up about how someone else spends their own money.

So you wouldn't be annoyed if your next door neighbor decided to build an aluminum smelter next to your property?

I despise the big, butt-ugly, bloated behemoths. I get claustrophobia being boxed in by them in traffic. Whatever happened to freedom of the open road? I guess you have to own a monster truck to enjoy that now.

Specious comparison. Such a construction project would severely damage the value of my property. Someone driving a Hummer doesn't decrease the value of my vehicles.

I get claustrophobia being boxed in by Semis, going to shopping malls, wading through the crowds when leaving a sold-out baseball game....

I am not going to insist that others alter their behavior in order to prevent me from having such feelings. If we are going to have the government interfere in people's personal choices, then be prepared to have your own taste and desires thwarted by others who may not like the same things.

Who said anything about asking the government to interfere? I know common courtesy isn't fashionable nowadays, but I don't think it's too much to ask of people to think about how their decadent lifestyle choices affect their neighbors' quality of life. And I don't go to shopping malls or big league sporting events or live in a grossly overcrowded major city. That wasn't the subject of the thread. But since you brought it up, it would be insane to my way of thinking to voluntarily subject oneself to that way of life.

Yeah, because 18-wheelers, vans, delivery trucks, station wagons, etc. never existed before SUVs became popular. :confused:

They existed, but not everyone and his three-legged dog drove one. See the difference?

Such vehicles don't annoy me because the inconvenience and danger is offset by the legitimate purpose of transporting goods. What annoys me is when people inconvenience and endanger me just to satisfy their own vanity.

Wow. I guess I didn't see the fourth choice on your poll. It was the choice that said:

"As of last Wednesday I own a 3300lb SUV (that's less than the average family sedan), is a certified LEV (low emissions vehicle), gets 24mpg (at average for cars) out of it's 2.4L four-cylinder engine, and is no taller or wider than a minivan (in fact, it's shorter, and narrower)."

So, what's the problem?

Are the bumpers higher than those of a minivan?

Bingo! And that's the only reason I can see for an urban dweller to buy one. Monkey see, monkey do.

It's parked next to a Windstar right now, they look about the same. My Lancer is on the other side, the CR-V's bumper looks like its bottom half will hit the Lancer's top half. If that makes sense.