Peryn

Yes, every car is spewing out CO2. The more the better. The more CO2 you're spewing out, the more efficient your combustion is. The optimal complete combustion would only put out CO2 and H2O. Those are the 'good' gasses to be producing a lot of. Its the hydrocarbons, NOx, and CO that are the biggest problems.

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Phaenx

I don't know about better offroad capability. Last winter I made a travel game out of counting the SUV's in the ditch.

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Peryn

So they only need it in some situations. Because you dont need something all the time doesn't mean you shouldn't have it. Its in our nature to use things we dont need. Got the v6 in your Honda instead of the I4? Theres little excuse for you to be driving some rediculously overpowered car when there is a cheaper more eco-freindly engine option. Went for the leather? Absolutely no reason the cloth interior wouldn't have been sufficient to keep your ass in teh seat, and it would have saved a cow and some production costs.

Society is full of crap we dont NEED. But who are you, or anyone, to say that because they dont need it all the time they shouldn't buy it? Im sure neither you, i, or anyone else on this board is living the most minimalistic lifestlye. So why should we go around bashing peoples choices of unnecesarry objects? Would you rather they get a small car, and instead run a bunch of computers, tvs, and A/C all day? They would be as much of a problem to society and nature. But hey, it doesn't directly affect you, so its ok?

Maybe this turned into an irrelevant rant, but i just cant fathom how anyone can presume to know enough about those around them to judge what they should be allowed to buy/drive.

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glasscutter43

Stupid
Useless
Vehicle

Isn't that what SUV stands for?

I'm not sure if I hate them because they are always in my way (courier driver), or if it's because I don't have one.

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bermuDa

I drive a 4-cylinder '89 mercury tracer hatchback with cloth seats and an AC that doesn't work. I may not live a minimalist lifestyle but I use the resources available to me as I need them. A small car is enough to get me to where I need to go, and if I need some towing power or cargo space, I borrow my dad's ancient van or get a friend with a truck to help.

There's a difference between meeting your needs, opting for luxury, and going completely overboard and buying an SUV, citing features that one never uses as a reason for the purchase.

And SUVs do directly affect us, as mentioned by others in this thread. They are large, hard to see around, and at least in my experience are driven carelessly because the drivers think they are safer behind the wheel of a large obnoxious vehicle. I have friends who own SUVs and drive this way, and I have almost been side swiped twice by some careless asshole in an SUV who doesn't believe in blind spots.

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Drider_it

my only problem with a suv..

why would someone buy a luxury suv? oxymoron? why trash it offroad.. oh wait..

i have yet to see a real life suv "off-road" seriously and i go everywhere you can think with my concrete jobs..

all i see is stuck up white women talking to god knows who on a cell phone while they inch over in my lane.. then look as if i did something wrong by honking the horn...

why i bought a pink 2 foot dildo that is "loose" i wave it at them when they look at me pissed when i blow the horn. .. makes my day.. (although i havent been pulled over by a cop yet.. i expect to someday)

and yeah i would beat a person with it if they tried that road rage with me....

slap around and make them call me suzy

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iamnormal

This thread does a good job showing how news media brain washes people.
People blaming a type of vehicle for a problem started before cars were invented.

Cynthetiq

I'm not sure about the Escalade, but the Ferrari and Maybachs have a luxury tax associated with them. Which was a concession to the CAFE standards during the late 80s.

I think you'll need to explain a little more.

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sailor

Another point that needs to be made: even though you may use your SUV for what it is meant for (in my case, towing), it still gets used as a primary car. I, and most other people, cannot afford to buy two cars for two seperate tasks, and as such, must make sue with what will fulfill both tasks: again, in my case, an SUV. My Explorer gets driven around town, on the highway, and wherever else more than it does towing. This is natural: I tow a boat a couple times a month. But when I need to tow that boat, nothing but a light truck will do.

Many of the people you see driving their SUVs around town may be in the same situation. They may have to use their cars a few times a month for what it is used for, but the rest of the time, it has to serve as their primary vehicle, because they cannot afford another one. I know I cant.

Now, that said, I think (hell, I know) the vast majority of people dont use the SU for what it is used for. I just make the point that because you dont see them actually using it to its capabilities doesnt mean that they arent.

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merkerguitars

Maybe they should pass a law saying you can only buy them if you have a purpose....sorta like in wisconsin where if you own a ATV and want to drive it on the road for farm purposes....... but no way that would work....cause the car companies make big money out of anyone buying them

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http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=26985

kellys

I couldn't care less what other people drive except when they inconvenience me... or complain for no reason - the SUV drivers here in AZ all want the lanes widened and the parking spaces made larger because they can't manage to maneuver their huge a$$ vehicles into their spots. Annoying - if you can't drive it, then don't.

On the other hand, my true hybrid vehicle- gasoline electric civic hybrid, I get 40 miles per gallon, it is an ultra low emmissions vehicle, AND I got a $2000 tax deduction for buying it... so there are some benefits to the little car now and then. Oh, and I can fit myself, husband, baby in carseat, great dane and german shepard all in it, although it does get a little crowded And yes, I do feel good driving it, especially when it costs me $20 every three weeks to fill the tank and everyone else I know $50 a week to fill their suv's....

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89transam

Or how about a requirement that people need a special licience to drive an SUV? We require seperate licences for motorcycles and semi trucks, why should SUVs be any different?

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sprocket

Um.. CO2 isnt really a bad thing. What do you think is coming out of your mouth every time you exhale.

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exizldelfuego

I agree that, so long as you have a purpose for owning one, it's not really a problem. Personally, I don't like them and think that for a good 60% of all SUVs out there a station wagon would have been much more appropriate, especially now that AWD is coming of age. When I travel to Colorado, it makes sense that people there have SUVs; not for off-roading, but for very poor road conditions half the year. But I feel dismayed when those same SUVs are all over the roads here in Seattle, Washington. I'd say my biggest problem with SUVs is that they've managed to become status symbols, which ironically takes the Utility out of Sports Utility Vehicle.

Seriously, people: unless you plan on putting it to good use, get a wagon instead. Better safety, better gas mileage, better performance, more comfort, comparable cargo area (unless we're talking about behemoths like Suburban), and just all 'round better deal.

irseg

I'm waiting for liberals to start bitching about people who live in bigger houses that require more energy. "Waaaahhh! Why do you need ALL THAT SPACE? Do you realize how much energy that wastes? 600 square feet is more than enough for anybody!"

If you think it sounds ridiculous, the idea of people suing McDonalds for getting fat sounded ridiculous 5 years ago, too.

irseg

Well duh, they're just taking advantage of their superior offroad capabilities!

iamnormal

I am referring to the carbon issue.

irseg

I think you'll need to explain a little more.

Cynthetiq

aaah but the difference there is that the larger the size of your property the MORE it costs to maintain it from the heat and AC, to electricity and water, and finally, PROPERTY TAXES.

No liberal in his right mind would kill that golden goose.

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sailor

I think you have liberal and tree-hugging-hippie confused.

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1337haxor

It seems this argument is going to go on forever...

I drive a full size luxury SUV and I wouldn't have it any other way.
People complain about the use of a luxury SUV, but whats wrong with doing something one would normally do in luxury? There are luxury cars. Maybe I feel like hauling around cargo in comfort. Or feel like sitting on some nice heated leather seats during my off roading adventures. People pay for luxury and I don't see luxury SUV's as anything else. How many cars can fit 8 passengers + luggage + towing? I don't tow that often, but the first two I do a lot of.

Now, the safety issue. I agree that SUV's are more dangerous. And I wouldn't be against having a seperate license for an SUV. But at the same time, there are probably more bad drivers then bad SUV drivers. SUV's just stand out more so you see when they do something stupid. I am not anti or pro SUV, I am anti-stupid.

As for my occupants being safer then someone I hit? Not trying to sound mean, but my safety is more important to me then someone else's. I'm not about to give up any safety for me or my occupants.

Gas mileage is kinda crappy, but some older sedans get the same gas mileage. Why not ban them from the roads? I do wish my car had better mileage though. People who drive SUV's must feel its benefits outweigh the cost and thats how I feel. Toyota & Lexus does have those new hybrid SUV's coming out soon so maybe SUV's will go in that direction. *fingers crossed they will make my model in hybrid soon*

I understand that people aren't going to change their stance on this issue, but at least try to understand the point of views of others.

-Robert

shakran

I drive one for work. An SUV is just about the perfect news vehicle. Room for 4 (or 5 if you squeeze) and a place in the back for all your gear. The 4wd helps in the winter and on back roads that you sometimes have to drive to get to a story.

For personal use, it's a civic all the way. The news truck gets 15mpg. Especially with fuel prices today, that's horrible. I'll take my 40mpg car any day of the week

rsl12

Not to sound mean, but the Bradshaw book mentioned by the person that started the threat notes that the SUV marketing strategy for a number of car manufacturers is to sell to people who actually buy such an argument. It's been a while since I read the book, but if I remember right, their description of the target consumers are people who have recently been married and do not feel secure with themselves or their marriage. The 'gimmick' used by salespeople is to ask them, "if you were in a car accident, who would you rather have survive, you or the other people?"

The kind of people that buy into all that are the people who automotive manufacturers are targeting in selling SUVs. I don't think that comes as a surprise to many people.

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1337haxor

humm, never thought of it that way and it makes sense.
But wouldn't it also make sense that *some* SUV's are more protective in that way since they have a beefier frame and have more car around to crumple then a small car. My mom ran my SUV into a highway guard rail at 60mph due to ice and it would have been alot worst if there wasn't all that car and strong frame (no frame damage btw ) to take the hit. She shouldn't be driving something like that so carelessly . Some people do need to realise SUV's are not like a sedan, going back to the seperate license thing.
I can agree that being safer due to the size is a marketing thing (marketing departments == evil), since some SUV's out there are nothing more then supped up station wagons.

-Robert

shakran

plus the fact that it's a rather fatalistic view. "You're going to have a wreck anyway so you may as well surround yourself with something big enough to survive it."

My mentality is "I want a much more maneuverable vehicle so I can avoid the damn wreck in the first place."

my news truck is MUCH less stable than my civic. At the end of a day of work driving that thing around, I get into my civic and it feels like I'm in a friggin' indy car by comparison.

1337haxor

I feel the opposite about my car and the family civic
I guess everyone has their tastes.

-Robert

shakran

I expressed 3 opinions in that post. To which were you referring?

1337haxor

I prefer to drive my SUV. It is more fun to drive then the Civic. Getting into the SUV after driving the Civic feels like I'm in a race car. The Civic can get the job done, but my car is just faster and more torquey (is that a word?).

-Robert

castex

Yes, torquey is a word, and one of my favourites

After a weekend spent nursing my virus-addled home pc, I return to find...An interesting variety of views, expressed with commendable civility.

Cynthetiq, I had spotted this theme in motors and thought it would benefit from a wider airing. Such a thread topic probably seems like a shocking load of whinging to some, but I do think it is important to keep asking these questions. Thanks for your further input.

Robert, 1337haxor, I'd say the fact that your mum survived unscathed from her guardrail impact was sheer good luck. I'm very thankful she came out okay. Unfortunately, the fact that the centre of gravity on these machines is so much higher than with cars means that very often in such accidents the SUV is 'tripped' by the barrier. The resulting rollover accident leaves the weakest point of the car - the roof - to bear at least some of the impact.

Furthermore, the strong frame on most SUV's means that on impact with an unyeilding object such as a bridge support, there's nothing to spread the load of the collision, and the crash force is transfered directly to the vehicle occupants.
In side impacts with other cars that truck-derived ladder chassis takes on the form of a battering ram, travelling at around shoulder height to most other road users. Side impact protection on cars is minimal at best. Side airbags are good, but when that much pointy steel comes through the window at whatever speed they're not going to help.

SUV's are getting more and more popular. While the people with the money to buy them new tend to drive them carefully, soberly, as the SUV class gets longer in the tooth we're seeing huge numbers of Explorers, Yukons, Dakotas entering the second hand market within the reach of drivers with less idea of how to drive and less consideration for the potential consequences of their behaviour.

I can't say too much on the economy and environmental issues, driving as I do probably one of the most polluting vehicles with the lowest mpg on the road. I'm sorry about that...I'm selfish in many ways. I pay through the nose for the privilege, however; with gas prices here currently at the equivalent of $5.37 per gallon, filling up costs around $130 so I don't do it all that often...

The status quo constitutes a serious, and worsening problem for America's drivers and passengers alike. Seeing as the rest of us often end up with the vehicles and the tastes developed for the world's biggest market, it's a serious issue for us all.

shakran

there was a documentary I saw about a year ago that was very enlightening as to the popularity of SUV's. It wasn't even a car documentary - it was about how corporations can, with enough money, get the government to do damn near anything. Turns out when compact cars threatened to take over the market, and therefore reduce profits since no one's gonna pay as much for a Civic as they would for a DeVille, the American auto industry got the government to endorse some bullshit studies that said small cars are horribly unsafe. There were even PSA's run that encouraged people to be careful about buying a small car due to the supposed danger.

People took that idea to its logical conclusion that the bigger the car, the safer it is. That's one reason this idiotic myth that SUV's are so much safer than cars is around today.

`

Cynthetiq

I think you are talking about the FrontLine episode... I forgot about that...thanks for the reminder... and here's a link to the show http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/

some interesting points:

and

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irseg

If you were going to be in a head-on collision between an Expedition and a Civic, which one would you rather be in? After all it shouldn't matter since weight doesn't make any difference right?

http://www.hwysafety.org/safety_fact...ts/passveh.htm

Oh interesting, small cars have 117 accident deaths per million cars, and large cars have 58. Gee you're right, no difference there!

dimbulb

I think that the number one reason why SUV's are as popular as they are is the ridiculously low gasoline taxes in the US. Even with gas prices as 'high' as they are now, gas prices in the US are low compared to Europe and the developed parts of Asia.

It would be political suicide for a politician to suggest this, but its a way to make people who pollute more pay more. It'll also help to reduce your country's dependence on foreign oil.

shakran

Hmmm. Let's sit down and think about this real hard for about 5 seconds. Why do you suppose so many more deaths happen in small cars? Think maybe it's because people are buying giant land barges instead of normal sized cars? Think maybe those wonderful SUV's are killing people because of their size?

What SUV "safety" proponents are proposing is an arms race. Pretty soon nearly every car will be as big as an SUV, so NOW to be "safe" we've gotta start driving something bigger. Why not cut out the middle stuff and go straight to driving Kenworths? They're REALLY safe, right?

Cynthetiq

irseg,

good site, take note though that the passenger cars statistics are pretty stable, going up or down a small percentage.

Note the Pickup and SUV lines and there is steady figures of increasing deaths. I nod that it's probably because of increased sales of SUVs.

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skier

I own and drive a '92 Chev Suburban for the following reasons:

1. Low cost. It's actually cheaper to fill this gas guzzler than to buy a new/fuel efficient/fast car and pay large insurance on it due to my high risk age group.
2. Cargo Capacity. I do a lot of errands around the farm and i find that very often the truck will be completely full whether i'm carrying garbage, feed, Tack boxes, etc.
3. Towing capability. My dad and I love to go fishing, we often use the truck to tow the boat/trailer. Also it's used to tow horse trailers, and a flatbed trailer as well.
4. Room for the dog. Great danes take up a lot of space.
5. Safety. Max speed: 140 km/h acceleration: 0-100 in 17.5 seconds. long wheelbase. It's easy to be a defensive driver when it takes a full kilometer of road to pass someone on the highway.
6. Reliability. My truck is nearing 400 000 kilometers, and still starts up right away, and I can count on it to take me where I need to go, even in the depths of winter.

Some people get a lot of use out of their SUV's. Don't throw all SUV drivers into the same mold.

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fatherjohn

If somebody buys a car with a 6 cylinder engine instead of a 4 cylinder engine, it doesn't block my view of the road.

Boo

I own an Expedition. It fits my lifestyle. It hauls groceries, tows my trailer, seats 9 when family is in town and is 4X4. It gets locked in after the first snow and unless the roads are dry, stays locked in until breakup. It rarely goes off road, I have off-road vehicles for that. It is a 97 with 70k on it.

I wonder if people that dislike SUV's would prefer a little bit of their own mentality when it comes to music, jobs, and all the other things that make America a great place to live. People have a choice to drive a vehicle within their means and most people will drive one at the upper limit of their income. This can be for safety, comfort, climate, family size or even peer pressure.

I do not believe in tax breaks, safely manipulations or weight limits should exist for ANY private vehicle. Only commercial special purpose vehicles should be (intelligently) exempted.

Be glad that there is still freedom of choice in a vehicles. Without them, there would be no low-riders, rv's, classics, sports cars or motorcycles.

I believe that ANY vehicle can be driven by a moron and those pointing fingers at SUV's for poor driving skills should rethink their statements. If you have issues with SUV's, what is your real agenda?

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wonderwench

Ford is working on a hybrid Explorer - so the fuel efficiency issue will be non-existent upon its debut.

I agree with Boo - freedom of choice is a wonderful thing and the government has no business favoring one lifestyle decision over another, in this or in any other area of one's life.

fatherjohn

Perhaps, but the reality is that the vast majority of SUV owners have no need for them.

Quote:

I wonder if people that dislike SUV's would prefer a little bit of their own mentality when it comes to music, jobs, and all the other things that make America a great place to live.

Sure. I object to jobs, such as telemarketing, that are mainly an annoyance and have little or no redeeming values.

Quote:

People have a choice to drive a vehicle within their means and most people will drive one at the upper limit of their income. This can be for safety, comfort, climate, family size or even peer pressure.

Sure and if people to choose to act in a thoughtles and self-centered manner, I have the right to point it out.

Quote:

I believe that ANY vehicle can be driven by a moron

I'd rather have the morons in normal cars than SUV's.

Quote:

If you have issues with SUV's, what is your real agenda?

I don't like it when people inconvenience and endanger me to satisfy their own vanity.