CDs & DVDs don't last forever... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 05-06-2004, 01:54 PM

Quote:

CDs, DVDs: Human After All Associated Press
Story location: http://www.wired.com/news/technology...,63355,00.html

10:45 AM May. 06, 2004 PT

Dan Koster was unpacking some of his more than 2,000 CDs after a move when he noticed something strange. Some of the discs, which he always took good care of, wouldn't play properly.

Koster, a Web and graphic designer for Queens University of Charlotte, North Carolina, took one that was skipping pretty badly and held it up to the light.

"I was kind of shocked to see a constellation of pinpricks, little points where the light was coming through the aluminum layer," he says.

His collection was suffering from "CD rot," a gradual deterioration of the data-carrying layer. It's not known for sure how common the blight is, but it's just one of a number of reasons that optical discs, including DVDs, may be a lot less long-lived than first thought.

"We were all told that CDs were well-nigh indestructible when they were introduced in the mid '80s," Koster says. "Companies used that in part to justify the higher price of CDs as well."

He went through his collection and found that 15 percent to 20 percent of the discs, most of which were produced in the '80s, were "rotted" to some extent.

The rotting can be due to poor manufacturing, according to Jerry Hartke, who runs Media Sciences, a Marlborough, Massachusetts, laboratory that tests CDs.

The aluminum layer that reflects the light of the player's laser is separated from the CD label by a thin layer of lacquer. If the manufacturer applied the lacquer improperly, air can penetrate to oxidize the aluminum, eating it up much like iron rusts in air.

But in Hartke's view, it's more common that discs are rendered unreadable by poor handling by the owner.

"If people treat these discs rather harshly, or stack them, or allow them to rub against each other, this very fragile protective layer can be disturbed, allowing the atmosphere to interact with that aluminum," he says.

Part of the problem is that most people believe that it's the clear underside of the CD that is fragile, when in fact it's the side with the label. Scratches on the underside have to be fairly deep to cause skipping, while scratches on the top can easily penetrate to the aluminum layer. Even the pressure of a pen on the label side can dent the aluminum, rendering the CD unreadable.

Koster has taken to copying his CDs on his computer to extend the life of the recordings. Unfortunately, it's not easy to figure out how long those recordable CDs will work.

Fred Byers, an information technology specialist at the National Institute of Standards and Technology, has looked at writeable CDs on behalf of government agencies, including the Library of Congress, that need to know how long their discs will last.

Manufacturers cite lifespans up to 100 years, but without a standardized test, it's very hard to evaluate their claims, Byers says. The worst part is that manufacturers frequently change the materials and manufacturing methods without notifying users.

"When you go to a store and buy a DVD-R, and this goes for CD-R as well, you really don't know what you're getting," he says. "If you buy a particular brand of disc, and then get the same disc and brand six months later, it can be very different."

This renders the frequently heard advice to buy name-brand discs for maximum longevity fairly moot, he says.

DVDs are a bit tougher than CDs in the sense that the data layer (or layers -- some discs have two) is sandwiched in the middle of the disc between two layers of plastic. But this structure causes problems of its own, especially in early DVDs. The glue that holds the layers together can lose its grip, making the disc unreadable at least in parts.

Users that bend a DVD to remove it from a hard-gripping case are practically begging for this problem, because flexing the disc puts strain on the glue.

Rewriteable CDs and DVDs, as opposed to write-once discs, should not be used for long-term storage because they contain a heat-sensitive layer that decays much faster than the metal layers of other discs.

For maximum longevity, discs should be stored vertically and only be handled by the edges. Don't stick labels on them, and in the case of write-once CDs, don't write on them with anything but soft water-based or alcohol-based markers.

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Also, like wine, discs should be stored in a cool, dry place. Koster's friend Mark Irons, of Corvallis, Oregon, stored his CD collection in a cabin heated by a wood-burning stove. The temperature would range between 40 degrees and 70 degrees in the space of a few hours. Now, the data layer of some of his CDs looks as if it's being eaten from the outside.

Irons is still pretty happy with CD technology, since it beats vinyl LPs and tape for longevity. Now that he's moved his discs to an apartment with a more stable temperature, he's noticed that the decay has slowed.

"I'm hoping they'll hold out till that next medium gets popular, and everyone gets to buy everything over again," he says.

Grrrr.. this is lame. I have been reading about this kind of stuff over the past decade, but this is the first time I've read anything about DVDs and bending.

FaderMonkey · 05-06-2004, 02:52 PM

Yeah, this sucks. I had heard things like this before. Actually, from what I've been told, companies hadn't hoped that CDs would last as long as they have. Yeah, they don't last forever, but it has turned out that they last quite awhile, unless of course they aren't taken care of. This is why I'm not a big fan of putting CDs in booklets.....keep them in their cases.

Drider_it · 05-06-2004, 02:54 PM

hmm that would explain why my "frist bought" dvds went to pot this year finally..

they were some of the first dvd's out...

also dont know if it matters or not.. but my old dvd player .. frist one i ever bought a while back would not play new dvd's.. i had to push down on the top of the case so it would read them.. i noticed that the dvds were not as heavy as my frist dvds heh.. figures

which would explain buffing.. to get out scratches and such.. if the data was put on or near the bottom.. that wouldnt work either..

heh is funny though frist cd i ever bought.. i said all they did was take a mirror and make a fortune.. guess i was right.

animosity · 05-06-2004, 03:22 PM

cds/dvd are poorly designed. they are made cheap. you wouldnt dream of taking the disk out of a floppy would you? NO! so why would they disign this with out a permanent case that you put directly into your player?... ive always hated that....

hmm.... idea... someone make a dvd player that plays dvds in the case and give me 10% of the profit.

-thnx

Cynthetiq · 05-06-2004, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by animosity
cds/dvd are poorly designed. they are made cheap. you wouldnt dream of taking the disk out of a floppy would you? NO! so why would they disign this with out a permanent case that you put directly into your player?... ive always hated that....

hmm.... idea... someone make a dvd player that plays dvds in the case and give me 10% of the profit.

-thnx

they did... that sucked. I hated those CDROM drives with the extra case.

CSflim · 05-06-2004, 03:39 PM

This happens at a much faster rate if you buy cheap CD-Rs.
A while back I bought a set of cheap CDRs. Within a year they had rotted away and are unplayable.

heyal256 · 05-06-2004, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Drider_it
hmm that would explain why my "frist bought" dvds went to pot this year finally..

they were some of the first dvd's out...

Actually If my memory serves me correctly, the first dvd's that were manufactured, suffered from "dvd-rot" after a year or so because the glue that was used to keep the dvd together apparantly grew mold and/or "ate" through the data layers. One of the things that was a sign of this was the disc starting to look cloudy. You can try to contact the manufacturer to see they will replace it.
If you want to know how long this problem has been occuring, search for laser rot. Laser rot is the term used in reference to laser discs.

billege · 05-07-2004, 01:03 AM

That explains why some of my brand new DVDs glitch when I play them. Some of those damn cases hold the disc so f-ing tight the disc does bend when trying to get it out. I've actually snapped a damn disk trying to get it out, that sucked.

Now I know to just break that stupid little disk grabber and not bend the DVD.

hu-man · 05-07-2004, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by billege
That explains why some of my brand new DVDs glitch when I play them. Some of those damn cases hold the disc so f-ing tight the disc does bend when trying to get it out. I've actually snapped a damn disk trying to get it out, that sucked.

Now I know to just break that stupid little disk grabber and not bend the DVD.

I like the cases that have the little 'push' and when you push, the dvd just pops out. No risk of bending anything.

Fremen · 05-07-2004, 01:22 AM

This saddens me greatly. I knew I shouldn't have sold my Dexy's Midnight Runner album.

I wonder how far away we are from using crystals for data storage?

Hanxter · 05-07-2004, 04:55 AM

Mark Irons holds out a damaged music CD in Corvallis, Ore., Monday, May 3, 2004. 'CD rot' is a gradual deterioration of the data-carrying layer--it's not known for sure how common the blight is but it's just one of a number of reasons that optical discs may be a lot less long-lived than first thought.

edit: http://www.rdrop.com/~half/General/CDRot/CDRot.html

Sparhawk · 05-07-2004, 08:15 AM

^^

That picture is almost begging to be 'chopped.

anleja · 05-07-2004, 04:48 PM

Mark Irons stares a hole into his cd.

mingusfingers · 05-07-2004, 05:10 PM

Well, I guess I'll postpone making my giant cd collection...or never.

glasscutter43 · 05-07-2004, 05:19 PM

Well damn...
I might have to go lookin for my old 8-track recorder in the attic.

Drider_it · 05-07-2004, 05:22 PM

hmm maybe i should break out my old beta max hehe it still works although not much will hook to it

Hanxter · 05-08-2004, 07:05 AM

as i recall the blight was first discovered in central america about 6 years ago - seems it comes from the ancient mayan ruins in peten just outside of belize where the chalupa virgins were sacrificed atop the jaguar temple

Fremen · 05-08-2004, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanxter
as i recall the blight was first discovered in central america about 6 years ago - seems it comes from the ancient mayan ruins in peten just outside of belize where the chalupa virgins were sacrificed atop the jaguar temple

Oh wow, step away from the wobbly pops.

burnination · 05-09-2004, 09:19 PM

That is really not cool to hear at all! I have around 2,000 cd's and about 300 dvd's. A lot of my cd's would really hard to replace. Glad I made copies and saved them as MP3's. I wonder how today's cd's will hold up 15-20 years from now.

Buk · 05-09-2004, 09:50 PM

One more reason why making "backup" copies using DVD XCopy or some other program shouldn't be frowned upon...

It is too bad the amount of Hard disk space recquired to keep digital copies of all my dvds is so huge...

VTBrian · 05-09-2004, 09:57 PM

Glad I'm a poor college student who can't afford dvds.

brandon11983 · 05-10-2004, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
they did... that sucked. I hated those CDROM drives with the extra case.

The same holds true why DVD-RAM will flop and/or has flopped.

punx1325 · 05-12-2004, 10:09 AM

I guess my time will come soon before my discs bite the dust...

05-06-2004, 02:54 PM	#3 (permalink)
Drider_it Junkie Location: Louisiana	hmm that would explain why my "frist bought" dvds went to pot this year finally.. they were some of the first dvd's out... also dont know if it matters or not.. but my old dvd player .. frist one i ever bought a while back would not play new dvd's.. i had to push down on the top of the case so it would read them.. i noticed that the dvds were not as heavy as my frist dvds heh.. figures which would explain buffing.. to get out scratches and such.. if the data was put on or near the bottom.. that wouldnt work either.. heh is funny though frist cd i ever bought.. i said all they did was take a mirror and make a fortune.. guess i was right. __________________ It means only one thing, and everything: Cut. Once committed to fight, Cut. Everything else is secondary. Cut. That is your duty, your purpose, your hunger. There is no rule more important, no commitment that overrides that one. Cut. The lines are a portrayal of the dance. Cut from the void, not from bewilderment. Cut the enemy as quickly and directly as possible. Cut with certainty. Cut decisively, resoultely. Cut into his strength. Flow through the gaps in his guard. Cut him. Cut him down utterly. Don't allow him a breath. Crush him. Cut him without mercy to the depth of his spirit. It is the balance to life: death. It is the dance with death. It is the law a war wizard lives by, or he dies.

05-06-2004, 03:39 PM	#6 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	This happens at a much faster rate if you buy cheap CD-Rs. A while back I bought a set of cheap CDRs. Within a year they had rotted away and are unplayable. __________________

05-07-2004, 01:03 AM	#8 (permalink)
billege Watcher Location: Ohio	That explains why some of my brand new DVDs glitch when I play them. Some of those damn cases hold the disc so f-ing tight the disc does bend when trying to get it out. I've actually snapped a damn disk trying to get it out, that sucked. Now I know to just break that stupid little disk grabber and not bend the DVD. __________________ I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence: "My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

05-07-2004, 01:22 AM	#10 (permalink)
Fremen With a mustache, the cool factor would be too much Location: left side of my couch, East Texas	This saddens me greatly. I knew I shouldn't have sold my Dexy's Midnight Runner album. I wonder how far away we are from using crystals for data storage? __________________ Google

05-07-2004, 04:55 AM	#11 (permalink)
Hanxter The Griffin	Mark Irons holds out a damaged music CD in Corvallis, Ore., Monday, May 3, 2004. 'CD rot' is a gradual deterioration of the data-carrying layer--it's not known for sure how common the blight is but it's just one of a number of reasons that optical discs may be a lot less long-lived than first thought. edit: http://www.rdrop.com/~half/General/CDRot/CDRot.html Last edited by Hanxter; 05-07-2004 at 05:15 AM..

05-06-2004, 02:52 PM	#2 (permalink)
FaderMonkey Psycho Location: Orlando, FL	Yeah, this sucks. I had heard things like this before. Actually, from what I've been told, companies hadn't hoped that CDs would last as long as they have. Yeah, they don't last forever, but it has turned out that they last quite awhile, unless of course they aren't taken care of. This is why I'm not a big fan of putting CDs in booklets.....keep them in their cases.

05-06-2004, 03:22 PM	#4 (permalink)
animosity on fire Location: Atlanta, GA	cds/dvd are poorly designed. they are made cheap. you wouldnt dream of taking the disk out of a floppy would you? NO! so why would they disign this with out a permanent case that you put directly into your player?... ive always hated that.... hmm.... idea... someone make a dvd player that plays dvds in the case and give me 10% of the profit. -thnx

05-07-2004, 08:15 AM	#12 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	^^ That picture is almost begging to be 'chopped. __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

05-07-2004, 04:48 PM	#13 (permalink)
anleja disconnected Location: ignoreland	Mark Irons stares a hole into his cd.

05-07-2004, 05:10 PM	#14 (permalink)
mingusfingers Psycho Location: uhhhh	Well, I guess I'll postpone making my giant cd collection...or never. __________________ Still Looking

05-07-2004, 05:19 PM	#15 (permalink)
glasscutter43 Insane Location: Vancouver Island BC	Well damn... I might have to go lookin for my old 8-track recorder in the attic. __________________ Book 'em Danno

05-07-2004, 05:22 PM	#16 (permalink)
Drider_it Junkie Location: Louisiana	hmm maybe i should break out my old beta max hehe it still works although not much will hook to it __________________ It means only one thing, and everything: Cut. Once committed to fight, Cut. Everything else is secondary. Cut. That is your duty, your purpose, your hunger. There is no rule more important, no commitment that overrides that one. Cut. The lines are a portrayal of the dance. Cut from the void, not from bewilderment. Cut the enemy as quickly and directly as possible. Cut with certainty. Cut decisively, resoultely. Cut into his strength. Flow through the gaps in his guard. Cut him. Cut him down utterly. Don't allow him a breath. Crush him. Cut him without mercy to the depth of his spirit. It is the balance to life: death. It is the dance with death. It is the law a war wizard lives by, or he dies.

05-08-2004, 07:05 AM	#17 (permalink)
Hanxter The Griffin	as i recall the blight was first discovered in central america about 6 years ago - seems it comes from the ancient mayan ruins in peten just outside of belize where the chalupa virgins were sacrificed atop the jaguar temple

05-09-2004, 09:19 PM	#19 (permalink)
burnination Upright Location: Kentucky	That is really not cool to hear at all! I have around 2,000 cd's and about 300 dvd's. A lot of my cd's would really hard to replace. Glad I made copies and saved them as MP3's. I wonder how today's cd's will hold up 15-20 years from now.

05-09-2004, 09:50 PM	#20 (permalink)
Buk Addict Location: Seattle, WA	One more reason why making "backup" copies using DVD XCopy or some other program shouldn't be frowned upon... It is too bad the amount of Hard disk space recquired to keep digital copies of all my dvds is so huge...

05-09-2004, 09:57 PM	#21 (permalink)
VTBrian Tilted Location: Blacksburg, VA	Glad I'm a poor college student who can't afford dvds.

05-12-2004, 10:09 AM	#23 (permalink)
punx1325 Junkie Location: San Diego	I guess my time will come soon before my discs bite the dust... __________________ If something seems too good to be true, then it probably is....