billege

Original source.

"Listen sir, your grandma didn't live a very healthy life. Now she has a lot of medical problems in her 80s, that frankley, require a lot of care. Because we have to consider the rights of more than just old people, we're going to let her die."
Granted, that's extreme, but it's where this train of thought ends up.


The idea that you may not care for my smoking has occurred to me. That's why I take great pains to save the hordes of sanctimonious non-smokers from my secondhand smoke. The idea that someone would actually condone not granting me medical care is a bit much for me to consider.
Given the trend over the past 20 years, of making the logical fallacy "slippery slope" a reality, I think fat people are next.
Obesity has risen over smoking as the number one killer, so if someone can (with a straight face) deny a smoker medical care because they contend that a smoker's care is more expensive, than it's certainly no stretch apply the same logic to the obese.
Or, it could be applied to someone with high blood pressure that the doctor says comes from .... whatever.

This is not a good idea.

I'd also like to rebut the good doctor on smokers costing more.

That may possibly be true, but smokers pay more, so shove off.
I have to check the "smoker" box, which raises my insurance rates. I pay for my habit in more way than one.
I also pay more taxes than a similar non-smoker. Everyone needs to remember that almost every state raises taxes on smokes and booze as soon as there is a budget issue. Smokers often pay for more than their share.

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Nisses

Smokers who do not quit should be refused elective surgery

The good doctor might wanna re-evaluate the oath he once took.

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Moderation should be moderately moderated.

rockzilla

Lets deny treatment for the elderly too, health care only puts off their inevitable demise.
While we're at it, no health care for children either. They don't do anything to earn their keep, and who knows, the child may grow up to be a smoker.
We shouldn't waste our resources on poor people or immigrants either.

[/sarcasm]

Public health care means it's public, either offer it equally to everybody, or go private.

Cynthetiq

you make choices you live with consequences.

while you may have to pay higher premiums and insurance companies may even eventually elect to NOT cover certain things caused by those choices one makes, then I have no issue with something like this.

A great example of this PRIORITIZING is if you go to the ER and you are just complaining of a stomach ache or back pain. Sure they will see you, eventually. All the other people who are immediately life threatening will find themselves in front of you.

Make choices about your life, accept the responsibility that other people will also make choices and judgements about the choices and lifestyle you chose.

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User Name

Granted, smoking is a very big health risk. My dad has been smoking for 25 years, and he's in terrible shape because of it. It's also a waste of the family money, with all the damn taxes.

But that's not what the doctor is arguing. He is arguing that it weakens the immune system. Smoking is just ONE of the countless factors that can affect one's immune system. The factors include diet, exercise, drinking, environment, etc. They might as well refuse elective surgery to people who live in polluted cities.

Good thing it's just one doctor, who lives all the way in Australia. I hope there's no such talk in the US.

Tophat665

We have got to figure out a way to tax self righeousness. Really. Dead serious. We figure that out and this wouldn't even be an issue, because we'd be looking for things to spend all the money we'd make on.

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kutulu

That would surely bankrupt all the christians.

Lebell

*sigh*

Thanks for the insult.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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bernadette

that doctor thinks in solely black & white.
the many shades of grey in between do not exists for him.

what a putz.
fortunately, i don't believe his suggestion will likely catch on.

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Nisses

Kutulu: thanks

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Moderation should be moderately moderated.

Xiomar

Well.. what proof do they have that I smoke? I'll just say I don't. The smell? My wife smokes... my breath? I kiss my wife. These cig's? I carry them for my wife.

Honestly... This is like saying we shouldnt waste education on the mentally challevged because their learning is greatly slower then those who are not.

And... Last I checked... my health insurance is payed up.
Just do your fucking job like the rest of us in the world.

Tholo

the key word here is ELECTIVE SURGERY. ELECTIVE ELECTIVE ELECTIVE.

I dont really support the idea propused, but because the surgery is elective, the way I understand it a doctor can refuse elective surgery on any ground he wants.

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fuzyfuzer

i know a plastic surgion in florida who refused to perform that elective surgery on a trial lawyer does that seem wrong to you,

i have heard this idea from a few doctors around here that they should request the court cases filed under medical malpractice and determine if it was necisary if it was not refuse to see the patient for elective reasons if there something life threatoning you would still see them

the hipocratic oath only requests that you do not harm the patient and you do everything in your power to help them survive, it says nothing about helping them appear better in any way

also it says that they will not perform abortions but we know that every doctor follows that line under all surcimstances

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Derwood

The truth is that smokers and obese people DO make health insurance more expensive for the rest of us. Not that I condone this doctor's idea, but let's be real here.

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krwlz

If its elective surgury only, then I have no problem. If the insurance rates are higher... good, they ought to be. If one day insurance refuses to cover damage done by smoking, fine by me.

My warantee on my car gets thrown away if I do stupid shit to it, why should healthcare and insurance be any differant?

yournamehere

You know who else makes health care more expensive? Parents.
Yep - parents. Because children are always getting sick and taking up doctors' precious time. And if that wasn't bad enough, every time a child gets sick, the illness is passed on to their parents, and their parents' coworkers, and those coworkers' spouses, and their kids - which starts the whole cycle over again. Each one of those little buggers is a miniature Typhoid Mary.
Having children is a conscious choice with dire circumstances. It puts a tremendous strain on health care, and should be outlawed.

I think the most outlandish example of this is the new stadium built in Cleveland about 7 years ago. It was built from funds collected on a 50 cent per pack cigarette tax. And can smokers smoke in "their" new stadium - even though it's outdoors? Of course not.

/not a smoker; just don't agree with discrimination against legal practices.

<b>Edited later:</b> I will, however, agree with the doctors who request (or require) that their patients stop smoking for a certain time period before surgery - unsuccessful surgeries and complications can affect doctors' reputations (and income) as well as the patients' well being.

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denim

The keyword here is "elective". That means, it's not required for the person to continue living. As such, it seems to me to be an arguable point whether it should be done at all, for anyone, unless they pay out of pocket.

tisonlyi

Shoot myself in the foot by mentioning his name, but anyway:

...then Hitler came for us, and there was no-one left to help.

(or some such quote)

You get the point, though:

Where will it stop if they are allowed to be less than universal?

no smokers
no alcoholics
no overweight people
no extreme sports participants
no standard sports participants
no people who go to the gym less than three times a week and fail in their duty to eat a strict diet regulated by a dietician
...
no seriously ill people
no ill people
no-one who needs it and can't pay for it themselves...

Yeah, it sounds far fetched, but would anyone have thought that smoking could be banned in public places 30 years ago?

Once a precedent is set, things tend to creep.

I'm not a smoker, but i do believe in freedom.

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Yakk

The precident is about elective surgury.

Basically, this doctor and hospital gets the same money if you smoke or not, and the load on the health care system and on the doctor is higher if you are a smoker.

If a doctor wants to not treat lawyers for cosmetic surgury, more power to her. Her freedom to not operate is as important, or more so, than the lawyers freedom to get cosmetic surgury.

Now, if the AMA decided, en-mass, they wouldn't treat lawyers, that would be a qualitiatively different thing. Because now you would have the law saying "you can only get cosmetic surgury from the AMA, and the AMA says you cannot get cosmetic surgury from them."

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.