Luki

Alright my little brother is in jr. high. We'll call him Bubba. Today one of his friends called me to the the Jr. High to help. Bubba had hurt a girl in his class for trying to stop a fight between hiim and this friend who called me. He left decently sized red marks across her arms and wrist, this was due to the fact that she turned and he missed punching her, he twisted her arms and hurt her pretty badly. None of them would tell the office what was going on. So they called me.

Bubba has many anger managment problems lately, this is his third strike in school and he is facing out of school suspension(oss). What are some things my mother and I can do to stress that:

A) fighting isn't the solution.

B) you're not supposed to hit girls(especially if all their trying to do is stop others from being hurt)

C) that his temper is getting out of control.

They're only Jr. Highers, but Bubba is a year older then the rest of them and is quite strong. Muscle and a short temper don't mix well, what are some things we could do? Any advice or comments would be helpful

__________________
Your part is silent you little toad - a line from the new phantom of the opera

Cynthetiq

dunno.. I'm not interested in hitting any women, but I'll be damned to get my ass kicked by a woman.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

moonstrucksoul

that is a tough call, but a jr high aged kid is the same as any kid.
curb there intake of violence related entertainment.

sit down and try to talk about the real issue. (now this is an assumption) he lacks a father? seeing how there is no mention of him in your post. i can only assume that not having a father is causing some issues with him. as the older brother, maybe you can sit and talk to him about this, and let him know your feelings too. sometimes people need to get things out in the open, so can cope better.

remember, you lead by example.

__________________
no signature required

raeanna74

I hate to say it but my brother was like that at that age. No matter what any of us said or did he never quit until he was arrested a couple times for assault and battery (one against his parents). Finally he went through counseling, and probation. He's learned some control. He still looses it some from his wife.

Some tough love is probably best here. Don't shield him from the school or hide it. My parents tried that and it obviously didn't help. My Dad got 3 broken ribs for his efforts, and my mom a sprained ankle. Talk to the school though about doing the best they can to help him get counseling, anger management, and the best tough love they can dish out. Get everyone on your side to help him learn some control now or he'll be in worse trouble later. Suspension is petty compared to what can happen in the future. Hopefully you can turn this around before it's too late. My prayers are with you.

Just a thought - possible a martial arts course where they teach control. Maybe it would help - not sure.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

Luki

Well, as his older sister I do influence him, but not much. My father may be part of the cause, but we left his home three years ago because we were being supressed in solitude(long story). My older brother is the best one I can think to straighten him out, but there is little chance he will do anything unless a teacher/coach comes to talk to him(my brother coaches at the high school).

I agree that tough love works, but I am not sheilding him from the school. I do think though that his suspension will not be a punishment, more of a vacation than anything. He refuses to listen to our mom and he is constantly disobeying her and arguing with her about it. Councelling seems a good idea, but I'm not sure if my mom can see the things going on(even when told), parents, especially mothers, tend to overlook warning signs until it's too late and someone is in serious danger. I'm not sure, really, how to convince her that he needs to see a councellor, or how to make him go.

__________________
Your part is silent you little toad - a line from the new phantom of the opera

Skettios

He needs some discipline.

Is Dad still in the picture? I see this sort of behavior a lot when he's not around. Your brother misses dad, isn't receiving attention in the form of discipline, and is angry at your mother because of it.

I would suggest getting him a mentor. I worked with a few kids who didn't have father figures, and it's an interesting experience to let them rage it out until they admit what's really bothering them. The toughest kids, crack the biggest when they finally come face to face with their problems. Many times they also heal the quickest. If he's acting out, he already feels that something is wrong, he just needs the proper motivation and help to fix it.

__________________
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche

kel

I have to propose the idea of medication. Ritalin works wonders for those with ADD. It turned my life around when I was 10 and made me into the person I am today :-P. I would definitely take him to a psychologist to get that diagnosed. He literally may be physically incapable of controling himself.

Weekly counseling sessions are alsoa definite must. Even if they don't seem to work initially he should keep going. Improvement doesn't come quickly and it can take months or years, but it is worthwhile.

__________________
"It better be funny"

WarWagon

I think that he definitely needs to see a psychologist/councellor on a regular basis, so that they can get to the root of the issue while he's young, and to keep him from hurting both himself and others.

kutulu

That's a good idea. If you find a good school with a good teacher they teach a lot of self control and spirituality related to martial arts. It's also a place where he can release whatever aggression he has in a safe way.

aurigus

Maybe this is too rikki lake-ish but would a boot camp shape him up?

I don't have any experience with that sort of thing, my family was always very docile.

SixEdxMia

Fuck teaching him marital arts,along with teaching control.. they will teach him to hurt others at a higher level.He already can't control himself,and he's proven harmful.
(from your post he intended to hurt her more than he did)

Bubba sounds like a Prick,and boys like him grow up to be wife beaters.
(most the boys I knew here in illinois who acted that way did)
Its a lack of respect tought early and it may never fade.

I by no means think anyboy should get his ass kicked by a girl either.. but this wasn't thie case...

13 year old boys and girls are on such very different physical strength levels.

If any punk little bastard hurt one of my girls for attempting to stop a fight I'd beat his ass myself.

__________________
Honey,We're home.

pinklily

My old brother was exactly like Bubba once, only I was the one subject to his anger. Therapy and medicine can really help, especially if you start when he is still young. Most kids like this have some other alterior problem that makes their anger even worse than it would normally be.

smooth

Yep, sounds like older bro needs to teach Bubba a lesson in respect out in the backyard.

I'd do the same for my little bro if he needed it. Might as well be someone who loves Bubba and will stop before it gets out of hand. Otherwise, the cops, someone else's older bro, or some big fucker at a convenience store is going to end up hurting him.

kurty[B]

Speaking from personal experience, as a child (younger than 12) I had a short temper. I attempted to attack my oldest brother with a steel baseball bat one day when he pushed me over that short limit. He grabbed the bat out of my hand, and then proceeded to beat the shit out of me with it. I didn't ever attempt to attack him again.

Doesn't really offer an answer, more of a perspective.


In my opinion yeah a psychologist might help, anything might help, but a mentor who is willing to discipline the kid is probably the better and not quite so expensive option.

I'm also the type that believes that solving/escaping problems with drugs prescribed or no is more of a last resort type of action.

eribrav

I agree with the other posters that suggest a good old fashioned ass beating FROM A MAN HE RESPECTS. Just getting beaten up by anyone will only make him angrier and meaner.

Forget the counseling and drugs. This problem can be solved with some old fashioned discipline.

Skettios

Not an ass-beating.

Being violent to a child who is already having problems with violence? You don't have to be a social worker to see that would be totally wrong.

'Oh look, there's a fire over there, guess I'll go dump some gas on it, and it will go out.'

I've worked with enough kids that I can tell you if this kid is given a chance to figure out what his problem is, to exorcise it from his system, he'll feel much better, and things will gradually get better. I'd be willing to bet that Bubba is miserable about something, he doesn't want to feel like that, he doesn't want to be a 'prick'. Give him some help to sort things out, after all, he's only a child.

__________________
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche

Strange Famous

I'd just tell him that real men don't hit girls. I remember when I was at school some kid went nuts and attacked a girl with a staple gun (I think we were 15) and I broke a plastic chair over his head. This is completely unrelated to your question, I know...

But, I mean, I think maybe thats what he has to understand... what sort of person beats up a girl? And is that the sort of person he wants to be, is that how he wants people to see him?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Prince

Don't want to sound negative, but I think there is relatively little you can do to deflate the situation... If he's really receptive to advice, perhaps you can try and help him find ways to control his temper. I'd say that's a place to start.

As for this not hitting girls thing... I've always found it interesting. I've never hit a girl, but then again no girl has ever hit me. But personally I am of the belief that a woman has no right to hit a man and not expect to be hit in return. Doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, if you don't want my fist in your face, keep yours away from mine.

__________________
Who is John Galt?

Luki

I know how you feel, I was the middle child for a long time, and being the only female. My older brother was like my little brother is now, although his was a bit worse, he tried to kill me(we won't get into that) my little brother doesn't know about it. And for several years I lived in fear of him, and I was too afraid to tell anyone that he was so abusive to me. I'm not sure what changed but last fall he showed concern for me and seemed to have grown up alot, he can hold his temper now. No one really knows that all that happened and I try not to let most people know, and if Bubba knew he'd think it was even more okay, I don't want him to believe that violence is ok and should be practiced regularly. But I honestly don't think anyone sees Bubba's problem. My mom shakes it off as "he's 14 and he's got some pent up anger" not.. he is too angry for no reason all the time and he needs help. They tend not to listen to me.

She didn't hit him, she stood between them and he was mad so he tried to hit her. There's a difference between acidentally hittin someone in the way and trying to hurt them twice cuz they're trying to stop someone else from getting hurt. And I'm a believer that in all honesty if a person male or female hits you out of anger like that that their asking for it. Same goes for someone raising their unjustly hand at any of my friends.

__________________
Your part is silent you little toad - a line from the new phantom of the opera

analog

Removing violence-related entertainment is a cop-out and totally useless as a means of educating someone not to do soemthing. You're doing a piss-poor job of patching over it AT BEST, and not coming close to solving the problem. Suddenly taking away his violent entertainment will only make him grumpy, if anything.

Leading by example sometimes means you show what needs to be done when the time is right, which brings me to...

People want to throw drugs at everything, and that is fucking ridiculous. Give them this, give them that- just fucking be a parent, a brother, etc., and TEACH them!

You go have a talk. You tell him he needs to chill out in general. You tell him with all the emphasis you can muster that you NEVER hit a girl. EVER. You tell him you better never find out he hit a girl again, or you're going to beat the living shit out of him.

Plain and simple, you do not hit girls. I've hit total strangers because they hit a girl. I have no qualms about it whatsoever...

Indeed.

Strange Famous

I have to say, to the people recomending that the best way to deal with a mad at the world kid is to have someone much stronger than him beat him... like has already been said "fire, here is some fuel I am going to pour on you"

What will it teach him? that if you are strong you can attack someone and not be punished, if you are weak you will be beaten... so he will beat people weaker than him because he can't hit the person who beats him back, until he gets strong enough and can start hitting back, or he just learns that violence is the way to get his way.

He certainly needs to understand that men dont hit girls, but I think he has to understand and feel that what he did was wrong, thats the way in which he'll stop, not just have some other dude beat the hell out of him for it... it will just make him bury more hate and rage and violence inside of himself - and all the blows he cannot return to the person who beat him, he'll store them inside and they will fester there.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

analog

The fuel on fire concept, as has been brought up by several people, is- in my opinion- weak, flawed, and completely disparate from what's going on here.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting he be beaten up just to beat him up. You're not "fueling" anything. He has misguided anger, fine. He can't accept that you don't just hit people because you feel like it, fine. You teach him a lesson.

If i say, "don't do this" 98 times and he still does it a 99th time, what has he learned? That when someone says, "don't do this" he can ignore them without consequence?

That's why we have so many fucked up little BRATS running around. There is no PUNISHMENT. So many kids are pathetically told not to do things, and when they persist, it's written off and ignored because the parents (if you can call them that) don't want to deal with it. It's easier to give in.

He needs to be told once, told again, and then taught (in the case of hitting girls, this is a one-strike deal). For some people, you have to punish them for their crime for them to learn from it.

Being reprimanded in a very real way by someone you look up to is quite something, especially to a child.

Kids need to learn respect. I fear that respect is one virtue missing from a lot of kids... and that's a fuckin shame.

qtpye4u84

You can reminde him that women are smaller(most of them lol) and when they get hit or shoved it can hurt them more then
you are aware of. Tell him that a lot of women die each year due to violence just one accidential hit to the face and they can be out cold.
Well, he is only in middle school so some times boys hit or chase girls in order to tease them because they like them.
But I know one thing That could help, maybe it was a problem between the girl and his friend my dad always said stay out of some ones problems, like there relationship is there problem dont but in and cause more problems.
Maybe you could show him a web site with battered wifes or just girls that have been hurt or killed to show him how much dammage one little hit can do!!??!!!

__________________
The QTpie

Strange Famous

All I can say is that I would never respect anyone who beat me, I would want to hit them back, and if I couldnt I would repress all my anger it would boil inside of me.

And really, how do logically tell someone "dont hit people, and I'm going to punish you for hitting someone, but hitting you."

If as an adult you assault someone, the ideal is not for the police to come and beat you up to teach you a lesson, it shouldnt be any different to kids, just because someone isnt 18 shouldnt make it ok to assault them.

And Im not saying just tell him not to do it and thats it, he needs to understand why it is wrong, someone needs to sit down with him and make him see that - someone who he respects. That is the way he will change his behaviour, like I said, if he hits a girl, so his dad hits him, what does it teach him, other than it is ok to hit people who are weaker than you?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

analog

You can all throw pills and therapists at it, and call it assault or whatever makes you feel better, but when it comes down to it, big brothers have been straightening out bastard little brothers since there were such things via a good couple of punches and some wise words.

And yes, I can very logically hit someone to show them they shouldn't hit.

"You know why you shouldn't hit people? *BAM* Hurts, doesn't it? You want people to randomly come up to you and hit you? *BAM* Didn't think so. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It's a good saying and a good rule whether you're religious or not.

Strange Famous

Yes, I see... so when you hit them to show them why they shouldnt hit someone, who hits you, to show you you shouldnt have hit them?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

analog

I believe my sense of morality is already clearly and firmly established, and I am not in need of punishment.

That's like saying you should put judges in jail because they put people in jail. Makes no sense.

EDIT: Sorry for the partial threadjack.

Strange Famous

From the perspective of the person you hit, how do you think it feels? Do you really think this kid is going to feel "oh well I deserve that, I wont hold a grudge agaisnt that person for hitting me at all"

The only way that is possible is if he accepts what he did is wrong, and if he accepts that he wont do it again anyway, so there are only two arguments I can see

The best way to make someone see that something is wrong is hurt or damage them, to use violence against them

You arent really hitting him to make him see he was wrong, you are hitting to either hurt him because you think he deserves to be hurt or damaged for doing something wrong, or you just want to make him too scared to do what you dont want him to, because he knows he will be beaten for it.

Neither of these arguments make me feel comfortable...

The goal is to make this kid not do something like this again, and my belief, again, is that the most effective way to do that is to make him understand why it was wrong, and make him feel the guilt about it. Just hitting him teaches him more about violence... and when he is 18 maybe he's bigger than you are and the lesson goes the other way round.

And yes, kids probably always have bullied each other, and older brothers probably always have beaten up their younger brothers in many cases - and most people survive it and it doesnt do them any long term harm, but it doesnt mean it doesnt hurt them, and it doesnt mean it isnt wrong.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Hanxter

take him fishing

ooiizzi

I don't think he needs punishment. Threatening him or beating him up isnt going to help at all, even if its from someone he loves and respects. If thats how you do it then that poor girl might end up in a hospital next time. I don't understand why some seem to think you can teach someone respect by beating them up, isn't that what caused the reason to beat them up in the first place?

The older brother or sister should sit down and talk with him without threats and warnings, like an equal, who knows, maybe he has something to say. Try to show him that his opinions do matter to you. I don't think he's going to accept going to a councellor, but maybe a mentor would work? I would recommend a hobby (martial arts would do), just somewhere he can direct his extra energy.

Just remeber to treat him like an equal!

Rodney

I'd say counseling, but in some kind of program with sanctions. Like, pay attention and work with the program, or you have no life. You gotta get at his problems; but if he doesn't want to cooperate, he has to be given a reason to cooperate.

Of course, if your Mom has checked out, this is going to be difficult.

SixEdxMia

Yes,But I am mom,not big brother,and if mommy isn't happy,nobodys happy. I also have six big brothers.. go figure...

__________________
Honey,We're home.

TheBrit

Bah, I'll tell my story
I had a violence problem, up until I was about 15. I was bullied a lot when I was about 8-10. The reason it stopped at 10 is because I turned round and hit one of the bullies, broke his nose, black eye, blood, the works. The Headmaster phoned my dad and said "Well, Mr.x, I don't think your son is going to be bullied any more..."
I'm fairly sure I never bullied anyone, but I got in many more fights before I left that school aged 11 (when you leave that system in the UK). One of them ended up with my breaking a metacarpal hitting somebody (the 4th right. I couldn't punch...)
Then at secondary school I got in a few fights. Normally with older boys who tried to push me out of a queue or something, and I had this temper problem that made me fight back. About a 50% success rate on those.
Well, now, at the same school but much older I have calmed down. The last serious fight I got into was with somebody on the train who pulled a knife on me and my girlfriend, I knocked him out, chucked him onto the platform at the next stop. Funny thing is there were about 10 other people on the carriage, all ignored it. I remember when I was 13, a friend tapped me on the back of a head with a bottle. It was an old style lucozade one, half glass and half plastic. I heard it crack as it hit my head, turned round and whacked him. Then I realised who it was. Same guy I got into a fight with when I was about 14, over a stupid arguement. I whacked my best friend at the time, although I wouldn't do it again I do think what he did to me was way out of line.
I guess I'm rambling. My point is that I was a violent idiot up to about 4 years ago. In an instant I grew out of it. I have this preconception for being "hard" now, so I don't get into fights at all any more. I think what made me turn was realising what I was doing and that there were better ways to solve my problems.
If you can teach him that he can resolve his issues without fighting, you will make some serious headway. If fighting is working for him now (and it worked for me when I was 10), he will just keep on doing it.
Just in case you are wondering, my parents rarely knew about the fights (apart from when they had to take me to get x-rayed), but my dad always supported me in my fight against the boys who were bullying me. My granddad was the one who showed me to box (ex army-lightweight boxer) and I'm thankful for that. So yeah, no violence in my family at all. I was just an idiot.
My God, I rambled!

charlesesl

Go easy on the boy. He probably did it for self defence.

__________________
It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us.
Dr. Viktor E. Frankl

gophtc

SixEdxMia, You seem to know a lot of guys that you've been around for a while and never had an effect on. But you still don't seem to be able to explain how they didnt learn respect or where they went wrong or how you think they could have turned out differently.

You definately need to talk to him, listen to him, tell him to 'wake up'
I actually think its partly biological/physiological. Like when you said youre older brother was the same way but as he got older changed. I think its a growth mechanism but can be enflamed by bad childhood circumstances (family or bullies), its survival/adaptation.

It's not a bad thing.

He definately has no one to look up to or respect; want to learn from. It's not really necessary to beat on him (I would expect a older brother to do this but also look after him, but its kinda late in the game for that)
If he did have someone to look up to around him, he would never betray what he is expected of, it's just how a bond like that works, but we all arent so lucky to have someone like this
A mother can also have this power, by taking care of him and providing him with instruction, and when he does something bad, stop doing those little things for him, he'll notice, and in the worst of instances say you are disappointed in him, nothing hurts worst

The best thing you can give a struggling young boy are approval and advice.

I also think a martial arts school would be really good for him. It's the enviroment of being able to accomplish something, but really he needs to get some of that energy spent, its the same for anyone, youre really mad or sad about something, you could scream or cry, but running for example makes you feel so much better. But the enviroment of a MA school, would give him instruction, peers to be friends with, and something to work towards, have a sense of accomplishment and direction and worth

If hes so far off then military school is not a bad thing, but that doesnt relieve you of the responsibility of raising him, being there for him, and telling him whats most important in life, because those military schools don't do any of that. Some only want people who already are or expect you to be mentally healthy. When your boy comes back from remedial school, there's a heavy burden on you, he's not fine just because he acts differently now.

Luki

not a chance... did you read it?

she didn't do anything but stand between them and try to stop them

__________________
Your part is silent you little toad - a line from the new phantom of the opera

rat

The boy needs discipline, and not the kind that involves corporal punishment. He needs the kind of discipline where someone enforces standards of behavior upon him through reward and consequence.

As has been said before, martial arts is a wonderful track to take. It teaches self-discipline, which runs a close second to patience in the race to defeat a man mentally. If he has someone teaching him not only physically how to control his body but mentally how to control his anger, his temperament, and his other emotions, he'll be far better in the long run. He should avoid fights not for fear of being hurt himself, but for fear of hurting another unnecessarily--which happens to parallel with the concepts of most mental disciplines and martial arts.

__________________

saltfish

It's obivous that there is a problem if you have admitted that he has anger issues. This means that its time for figure out WHY he has anger issues. Sitting around and asking questions is not the way to find out the root of the problem.

Bubba needs to talk to an impartial party, someone who he can feel safe with and not be judged by. Possibly by a school counselor or a certified clinical therapist.

Obviously, if you had removed your family from you father, that means that there was SOMETHING strong enough to seperate children from their biological father. This is SERIOUS, and should be dealt with as such. Bubba will of course be angry that he has had part of his family removed, his acting out toward women may have some attached resentment toward his mother.

Seriously though, for Bubba's sake, give him someone to talk to, someone who won't judge him, someone who he can feel safe around.

Do it now, if left to fester, this can create a problem that can become very difficult to deal with.

-SF

animosity

my thoughts^^

this is a problem. get it fixed b4 it gets worse.

analog

I will reiterate. Kick his ass. Teach him now before he grows up another wife-beater.