Mephisto2

I'm wondering if these GI's followed due process here? I don't mean in the typical legal sense, but as far as their orders went?

The vid is from a US documentary crew who came across some soldiers after they caught some looters somewhere in Iraq.

No gore or violence (per se), just a kinda sad story; for all involved.


http://www.foggymyst.com/DontLoot.wmv


I'll make no judgement at this moment.


Mr Mephisto

Karby

now why'd they go and do that?

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jay-g

Thats war, and there is nothing pretty about it.

hu-man

They could have just made them give the wood back. In my opinion, the soldiers were as bad as the looters. They both did something they had no right to.
Imagine if the only reason they took the wood was to patch up holes in their only house of their family. We don't know that of course, but I still think that in this situation, the crushing was uncalled for.

tricks

Hearts and minds, baby.

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Fremen

I'm ashamed.

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Mephisto2

I'm sure someone will chime in and say "they deserved it."

Yeah, like that wood was really important and valuable...

I just feel sorry for the taxi-man.


Mr Mephisto

StormBerlin

Jesus Christ, that makes me sick. We Americans think we can do whatever we want and that's so sad. And they wonder why other countries hate us. I feel for those guys and hope they don't form an opinion that all Americans are like that.

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John Henry

Reminds me of a documentary I was watching on the UK History channel about the brutality and severity of the regime in Iran after the revolution (not the CIA revolution, the Islamic one). There was a clip about some guy who got his hand chopped off after a ten minute hearing without lawyers, because he was accused of stealing a piece of wood. Still, at least in Iran you get a hearing.

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Mephisto2

Yes...

But even _I_ think that's a rather... provocative statement.

Having said that, I think what happened in the clip was disgraceful.

What happened to those four contractors earlier today when their bodies were mutilated was also disgraceful. Downright disgusting actually.

And so it goes.


Mr Mephisto

analog

I don't really believe this is a real video. If these guys looked right into a camera and said this shit, they are the dumbest motherfuckers on the face of the planet.

My vote is fake, until I'm proven otherwise.

Also, they would most likely not be speaking english to them.

EDIT: PLUS, the narrator sounds like the guy who does stuff on the Dave Chapelle show.

Happy April Fool's Day everyone, i think we're being snowed.

Mephisto2

Yeah, they used a real M1-A1 Abrahms tank to create an April's Fool joke.

Sheesh...

Mr Mephisto

Mephisto2

For the record, here's a reference to this video at least two weeks ago.

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/...&lp=1079223736

Not really an April's Fool joke anymore, is it?

And for reference, it's from a PBS Special. Check it out here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/truth/


The only fools involved here, my analogue friend, were those American soldiers.

Oh, and here is Deputy Sec'y of Defense Paul Mr Wolfowitz's response to a question from a Georgetown University Student who questioned him on this issue


So I guess, in summary, you have been proved wrong.


Mr Mephisto

analog

Entertainment, most notably movie, producers commission military equipment all the time. This is not out of the ordinary by any means.

I still don't buy it, but i've been wrong before (don't tell anyone )/

Mephisto2

Analog,

See my post above that points you in the direction of the real PBS special.

Oh, and I sound very snotty but I don't mean to be...

Mr Mephisto

Cynthetiq

looks and feels like COPS....all it's missing is the Bad Boys song...

oh.. i have no audio at the moment.. so maybe the audio will make the difference.

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raeanna74

What bothers me most I think is the attitude of the soldiers. As a teacher I take no joy in punishing students. The one in authority should not act/feel selfrighteous or joy in any way. Punishment should be used to teach a lesson and right a wrong. I think their "Punishment" did not fit the crime. A car is much more valuable than a few scraps of wood such as I saw.

Funny thing the soldiers crushed the wood as well. If it was that important you would have thought they'd have put it back.

Not right. I'm not saying those looters should have done what they did. Just our soldiers should not have done what they did either. I am ashamed.

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Bill O'Rights

No question that the response was disproportionate to the offense. Had that been an occupying force from any other country, in any other country, our government would have been screaming from the highest mountaintop.
A "mistake"!? Gee, Wolfie, ya think !? And for some reason we can't see why we are so hated throughout the world. Arrogant!

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Midnight_Son

Take a dumb ass street kid, give him a gun, and send to him to fight a war in a country he’s probably never heard of, for reasons he doesn’t understand……..and you’re all shocked by the way he acts while he’s there?????

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sailor

Im gonna have to agree with Analog on this one. I think its staged.

This doesnt come from any refusal to admit that our men are capable of something like this, or anything of this sort. The reason I feel like this is that the whole thing is entirely too complex to be a documentary film. Documentary news films like this purports to be dont cut back and forth from person to person like characters, they dont zoom in for close ups on the faces of those involved, they dont have fancy shots establishing where they are. The production values of this thing are *entirely* too high to be the innocent documentary this thing claims to be.

Now, I could be wrong. But I dont believe this video is what it claims to be for a second.

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yournamehere

With the number of soldiers dying from roadside bombs, it should be their orders to destroy ANY unoccupied car they encounter along highways.

As far as the video goes, it wasn'r even brilliant editing - what happened to the guys who were sitting around earlier? Were they told to "Go hide around the corner while we crush your car"?
Now that I think about it - the "looters" disappeared right around the time the car made its first appearance.

I'm with <b>analog</b> - I call "Fake."
Of course, I've been wrong before, too.

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The_wall

Did you guys see mephistos post? He pretty much proved that it wasn't fake.

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Forsaken

Maybe not fake, but possibly staged? It would not take too much to stage this, a tank crew pissed about being in Iraq, a few Iraqis paid to play along, a camera, and a basic script. People have done much more elaborate things to get a political point across. I am not saying that it was staged, just pointing out that it would be easy to stage.

yournamehere

No he didn't - he provided links to two websites - one of them just another discussion forum, the other - the authors of the videotape. Do you think a TV crew's word is sancrosant because they're PBS?

I still think there's too much editing for it to be a real time video of an event - too many camera angles happening for it to be a war zone camera crew.

Now - I happen to have some respect for PBS, and would believe them over - say - a Fox News TV crew, so I'm willing to believe it may have happened. And by no means do I think our soldiers are incapable of doing that to an Iraqi's car. But it still <u>looks</u> fake.

How about we bury this argument and I'll start another?:
"See - this is what Monster Truck Rallies do to our youth!"

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sailor

What he said. Just because it has spread around, and even because it was on PBS doesnt mean its real.

My guess is that it was staged by some troops as a joke, to be funny. They probably had a car that was trashed anyways, and decided to make a joke out of it. A bit tasteless, but I can assure you that thing isnt real.

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skier

you have the opinion that it is not real, and have told me so, but I haven't seen any "assurances" that this is a fake.

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filtherton

LALALALALALA
*fingers in his ears*
What's that you say?!? I Can't hear you!

Yes, it's obviously a fake.

wait, hold on...
i could be wrong.

Speaking of fake...

How about those WMDs?

*goes and hides behind an overturned table*

Mephisto2

I give up.

Just tell me WHY you think it's staged? You don't think it's actually POSSIBLE that some GI's did something wrong? GASP, HORROR, SHOCK...

You think it's fake because the video was edited?

What I'm confused at is why you AUTOMATICALLY think it's fake when it's produced by probably the most respected news team in the US, is actually being discussed at the most senior levels of your government, obviously was filmed in Iraq, obviously uses real military equipment, doesn't seem to use actors...

Yeah, right... It's a dirty big conspiracy to fool you (and a few others). The US government, media and military are all in it together...

Because we know "our boys" couldn't do anything bad like that, right?


Right?




Mr Mephisto

Redjake

the video didn't seem "right" to me. it seemed too "entertaining" to be true. I call fake.

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water_boy1999

Hey, I read this thing on CNN of how "Fellatio reduces risk of breast cancer." It was on CNN so I definitely believe it. Although you won't be seeing me swallowing any sperm anytime in the near future.

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Mephisto2

And how likely are you to get breast cancer in the first place?




Mr Mephisto

yournamehere

QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
I give up.[/QUOTE]

First of all, <b>Mr M</b>, don't take it personally - I'm not calling you a liar or anything - I'm also not saying it is absolutely positively a fake - I just noticed some glaring inconsistencies in the editing. Sheesh - I thought the purpose of a dicussion board was to discuss things. Would you prefer 40 posts all saying "^What he said^" and "Word, dude"?
And this is getting a high post count rather quickly - the sign of a good thread.

However - you must not have read everything I wrote, so I'll quote it again:
Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
Just tell me WHY you think it's staged?
<b>what happened to the guys who were sitting around earlier? Were they told to "Go hide around the corner while we crush your car"? . . . the "looters" disappeared right around the time the car made its first appearance..</b>

<i>You don't think it's actually POSSIBLE that some GI's did something wrong? GASP, HORROR, SHOCK...</i>

<b>so I'm willing to believe it may have happened. And by no means do I think our soldiers are incapable of doing that to an Iraqi's car.</b>

<i>You think it's fake because the video was edited?</i>

<b>I still think there's too much editing for it to be a real time video of an event - too many camera angles happening for it to be a war zone camera crew</b>

<i>What I'm confused at is why you AUTOMATICALLY think it's fake when it's produced by probably the most respected news team in the US, is actually being discussed at the most senior levels of your government, obviously was filmed in Iraq, obviously uses real military equipment, doesn't seem to use actors...
Because we know "our boys" couldn't do anything bad like that, right?</i>

Again - <b>"And by no means do I think our soldiers are incapable of doing that to an Iraqi's car."</b>

You know - for someone accusing me of not having my eyes open, you sure accept a lot as fact
It's being discussed in government because reporters brought it up. From what I read, the government is "looking into it." That's a far cry from an admission.
As far as it being filmed in Iraq - why is that "obvious'? Sure - it probably was, but then again . . . Same for it not being actors
I could have filmed that in Mexico for a few thousand dollars. That doesn't mean I believe it was - i'm just saying it is one of many possibilities.

And, for the record, I did not AUTOMATICALLY think it was a fake - the discrepancies I've mentioned didn't become apparant until after the first few times I watched the video.

So the difference, I guess, is that you believe from the giddyup that PBS would not lie to you.

I believe, on the other hand, that the video looks a little fishy, which makes me - at the very least - question its absolute objectivity.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that this video might be real - I can't understand why so many of you can't accept the <i>possibility</i> that it's not.

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Strange Famous

And here then, is the liberation of the Iraqi people?

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water_boy1999

Well, you never know.....point is, there are sources out there that would believe this story to be true before they found the validity in it. PBS, CNN, MSNBC, etc......

After seeing the video, it does look a bit staged. Sorry to say that, but it does. However, I am not beyond thinking we are just as capable of wartime atrocities as the Iraqi people are.

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John Henry

I would like this video to be real more than anyone. I am utterly convinced that most people are assholes and just being the asshole in charge doesn't make you a better person. If this video were real it would bring that fact to more people's attention.

However, the first time I loaded it, I only got sound and it seemed real. Then I saw it with video and it does look somehow wooden. It reminded me of cheap porn. Trust me, I've seen a lot of cheap porn.

Not saying it is fake, but I can see that it could be.

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Skettios

Well, actually I do think their word is sacrosanct because they're PBS. If they were Fox News, I might have doubts, but PBS, they don't mess around.

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Evil Milkman

The webpage won't work for me, even when I try to "Save Target As".

Lasereth

I don't care if it's fake. I'd pay to see a M1A1 Abrams run over a car.

Ok, fine, I'm a bastard. If it's real, that sucks, but I'm about 60% fake/40% real. The video had a really, really weird narrator that sounded out-of-place in the video. US soldiers (hopefully) aren't stupid enough to tape it like that. They don't know if they were looting...they don't even know where the wood came from.

Like I said before, I did enjoy seeing the Abrams run over the car though.

-Lasereth

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Mephisto2

Can you IMAGINE the scandal that would ensue if it turned out that PBS were deliberately fabricating reports that were obviously damaging to the US Army reputation?

Can you?

It would make the New York Times scandal look like a playground spat. Get real. Heads would roll. Actually, entire departments would roll.

The current Administration is already rather sensitive to its position in Iraq and criticism, especially now that WMDs have proven to be a mirage.

Do you honestly think, that for one single second, if Mr Wolfowitz thought there was EVEN A HINT that this was false, he would react like he did?

Also, I hate to tell you this, but when you film an activity with a camera and take it back to the studio, you edit it. It's called EDITING and/or POST PRODUCTION.


You conspiracy theorists would believe anything if it would help avoid the unpleasant truth. And what's that truth?

Soldiers are ordinary people. And some people are just fucking jerks...


Mr Mephisto

Mephisto2

Alternative download site here http://www.warfalcons.com/cgi-bin/download.pl?file=0005

From a PBS Frontline show.


Mr Mephisto