I'm rich beyotch
 

Has anyone seen this?

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wi...-regional-wire

I really don't know what to say. I think its so sad I don't really know where to start.

Any thoughts?

I have mixed feelings about this.

Obviously, a great wrong was done to their ancestors. But this is just silly. I would be much more sympathetic if the filed a suit for a small amount (say a few hundred thousand dollars) with the funds going to a charity.

But this? Just greedy people.


Mr Mephisto

It's too complicated an issue. Too many middle men. Are you going to sue an ancestor of your ancestor's neighbor in Africa for trading people for guns?

I'm betting that the suit will get shot down, as it rightfully should. You can not put a price tag on something like this, nor should that price tag come from non-slave owning American tax payers.

I find it laughable when people are held accountable for actions that they did not commit. Ok, maybe 250 years ago the company financed these ships. But now it's been 250 years. This company i'm sure does not hold the same ideals and goals it did so long ago. It's like judging my character based on the life of my father. There is no connection.

Cool. I'm going to sue the descendants of the Africans who sold other Africans to whitey. It makes just as much sense.

So you find it laughable that many Swiss and German banks and corporations paid damages to survivors of the Holocaust?

I don't support this action, but it's not as simple as it first seems.


Mr Mephisto

Mr Mephisto:

to *survivors* of the holocaust, is quite a different thing altogether.
This are people that are suing for something done to their ancestors.

Hell, I'll go sue Italy for invading my hometurf in 100 BC, killing off lots of people and raping our women. Damn those Romans, they destroyed our Celtic heritage.

The compensation paid due to the Holocaust was also paid to descendents of those that died, including to those who were not even born until well after the Second World War. So, I'm afraid it is *not* quite a different thing altogether.

It is, in fact and in law, very similar.

Now, it will probably get thrown out, but to simply have a knee-jerk reaction is wrong.

Mr Mephisto

No, what I mean to say, is that these people have a direct and complete impact... It's them who suffered, or their parents who suffered and/or died.
It has a very profound impact on their direct daily lives.

Ancestor to me says: at the very least 5 or more generations ago.

OK, well then is that written in law somewhere?

That's the whole point. A precedent has been made.


Mr Mephisto

Sir, I find it laughable that people who have not been damaged still get compensated for damages. If my father died before I was born because a mugger shot and killed him, should that mugger's son/daughter have to pay me damages? Utterly rediculous.

I don't know why everyone is jumping down MY throat. I have repeatedly said that I think this action is baseless.

HOWEVER, it's not as simple as black and white. Anyone who thinks it is, or that simple statements like "I wasn't born then, so a priori I cannot be liable" are missing the point entirely and are stupid. The action is NOT against people, it is against institutions. Such actions have been permitted before and such actions have been successful before. What is needed is a case law decision, like those passed down in the UK, that limits such actions on a point of law and natural justice.

But don't lecture me with irrelevant rhetoric. Just look at both sides of the argument. It makes convincing others of yours so much easier.

Mr Mephisto

<b>mr. mephisto</b>
it actually is as simple as black and white. while not morally acceptable, slavery was <b>legal</b> at the time. what they were doing at the time was not illegal, and you can not hold someone accountable for doing something that was not illegal at the time.

the holocaust was immoral and illegal based on international law (war crimes, anyone?), so there's the difference.

this just involves greedy people IMO, if they were to sue, why sue for billions? so these american companies can offshore more jobs so they can cover these damages? i agree w/ Mr. Mephisto, sue for a couple 100k and donate it to charity. hell the companies might acknowledge their ancestors' errors and just donate this money to avoid the expensive court/lawyer fees.

Exactly what I was thinking. I don't know the list of companies that they are trying to sue, but if they were successful, you know what would happen, those companies would have to raise prices. Now I am paying for something of which I had NO responsibility of doing.

But will a billion dollars even help the african american become a success on a whole? Is money really the answer? Is an apology all they want from these companies, or is it just the lawyers we have to blame here. Don't forget they get like some 30% of settlements right?

here's my viewpoint on the subject. If it wasn't for slavery there would be an incredibly few number of black people in america. There would be an incredibly few number of black people living better lives here in america than in some crappy underdevoloped third world country. I'm thankful my ancestors went through rough times to get me here....so should they. If they want to sue, ship them back to wherever their ancestors came from and tell them they don't deserve what their ancestors got for them.

lame. I watched a news report the other day of a town that was PCB ridden and they got $600 billion, after various fees, lawyers etc. and the people of the town maybe they'll be getting $7,000 each.

Johnny Cochran and the judges went over their fees and the judge found them "reasonable" It's not like the town was some HUGE metropolis. Nope, the lawyers nickled and dimed the poor slobs, because they were poor.

Forget the gay marriage issue. Congress should make a constitutional law banning bullshit lawsuits like this.

We should sue the lawyers for fucking up America!

Next lawsuit - everybody vs everybody

Oy. I think the problem with this kind of lawsuit is that it's difficult to argue that the descendants were done lasting harm because of what was committed as part of the slave trade hundreds of years ago. You can't answer all the "what if" questions to see if they would really be better off if the slave trade hadn't existed. It's just like yatzr said - how do they know they wouldn't be on the wrong end of some genocidal massacre going on in Africa now?

I know the argument about hitting people in the pocketbook to make them address wrongs, but it's a different story when it's an ongoing practice (like manufacturing faulty products) than when it's something that happened centuries ago and isn't still happening. It seems to me that this billion dollars could be much better spent teaching tolerance, educating women and children still stuck in post-colonial Africa, and fighting intergenerational poverty in this country, rather than enriching a few lawyers and some whiners who've suffered "lasting emotional harm" because of what their ancestors wen through. It was awful, it was inexcusable, unconscionable, inhuman, but they're doing themselves no favors by not just getting over it and making the best of what they've got now.

The defendants "have destroyed our national and ethnic identity," one of the plaintiffs, Deadria Farmer-Paellmann, said at a news conference announcing the suit, which seeks $1 billion in punitive damages.

IMHO, the problem with this is Deadria seems to think that her descendants actually have a national and ethnic heritage. Slavery IS their heritage when speaking of historical United States. I am sorry to say this, but there was little to no black population living in the U.S. before slavery was introduced. This is of course not the issue.

The issue is whether companies like the aforementioned should be held accountable for injustices that occurred long before anyone at that company was even born. 100 years down the road, can ethnic groups still argue that their lives are somehow hampered from events that happened several hundred years ago?

I am not proud of certain parts of our rutted history, but it has been long enough that people need to get over it! We all have an equal chance in society to make the best of our situation. It just continues to piss me off to see people taking advantage of our already fucked up legal system because there are always people (companies) that will just pay a settlement keep bitches like this from flapping her gums.

I can almost see the lawyers that are a part of this sitting at their big meeting room table trying to think how much this should be for. The comedian of the group says in his best Dr. evil voice.....ONE Billion dollars. and they all go whoo whoo haa ha ha.

I like the title of the thread, did you get that from the end of "Chapelle's Show"?

Reminds me of a lyric from a song that was once popular..."Everbody wants something for nothing". I'm not saying that slavery was "nothing" but I agree with most of the sentiment in this thread in that the lawsuit is frivilous and almost entirely baseless.

I hate the idea of reparations. If blacks wanted to be compensated for their unfair financial standings and living conditions or whatever, I'd be all for that, but wanting to be paid because some people were enslaved a couple hundred years ago is ridiculous. What does being related to the slaves have to do with anything? I mean what exactly do they want to be paid for? They are just more human minds that happen to be born into the bodies of descendants of slaves. Probably everyone on earth is the descendant of a person that was a slave.

well, i think part of their thinking is (although it may or may not have been stated in the lawsuit) that due to the slave trade and slavery in america, that the black man has had lasting damage done to them as evidenced by the fact that they're still not truely equal to the white man. they're still subordinate when you look at their jobs, housing, and pay. and i agree with them... but...

but... even without slavery and the slave trade, there would still be these problems. maybe not to the current extent, but also, there would a whole lot less black people here.

we have a habit of hating those different than us in lots of ways. whites didn't like blacks, cause they were inferior. we didn't like the irish, the chinese, pretty much anyone that wasn't from england and some other western european countries. and to this day, we have negative stereotypes about these other groups. asian immigrents aren't harmed by it though, for the most part (or, more specifically, the decendents of them), same with the decendents of the irish.

i think what's really going on is that this deadria person sees how shitty life for the black man is compared to the white man, and this is the only way she knows how to stick it to the man. i mean, where does she really think this money is gonna end up? just amongst the eight plaintiffs? hardly.


oh, and to whomever said that they had no identity to be destroyed because there were no blacks here is missing the point. she sees her heriatage as being slavery and oppression, as opposed to her tribal heritage that she would have had if her family had never left africa. kinda funny how she leaves out the africans responsible...

I agree with yatzr. They should be happy they are here in America. I am sure that they would not enjoy life back in Africa. I know slavery was horrible but because of slavery they now have a chance at a better life than they would have if their ancestors were not slaves.

I have ancestors that were American Indian, but I am not going to sue anyone for any of the horrible things that were done to my ancestors.

I think the statute of limitations should apply to any crimes (including murder and conspiracy therof) after 100 years. If you can't bring the perps to justice in 100 years then there is no injustice. As was said before all this was legal, and according to ex post facto we are not held accountable for breaking new laws previously.

This is just a group who wants to be rich for nothing. I'd like to see their intentions for the money should they be awarded it. Maybe build a black history center ala Weisenthal? Perhaps a foundation like UNegro College Fund to put more underpriveleged blacks thru college? I highly doubt either would see the light of day. Due to the size of the damages I don't see this going anywhere but it still saddens me that they aren't being laughed out of court.

International slavery was illegal both in the United States and it was also "outlawed" by the United Kingdom (who attempted to police the seas) to quite some time before the Emancipation Declaration.

And even that didn't remove slavery entirely from US statute books.

Mr Mephisto

the slave trade was outlawed and made illegal about 30 years before the emancipation proclimation, if i remember my history correctly. that doesn't change the fact that before then, it was legal to ship them over, and was still legal to own current and future-born generations of slaves until the emancipation proc.

so as long as it was legal in the states to own, and the shipping did not continue after outlawed (which probably did not happen 100%, but most of the big companies would have stopped), then there is no legal recourse.

as i said before <b>morally wrong, but legal</b>.

-hh

maybe when the we enact fair wages for all that the women and manual laborers of the country will expect back pay

What exactly is a "fair"wage? Do you have any idea how the economy works? I would imagine not, because if you did, or if most people did they would entirely discard this notion of a "living wage".

Let me break it down nice and simple, not to make you seem like an idiot, which i am sure you are NOT, but to make sure there is little confusion. The market place depend on two things; supply and demand. Where the two meet is your equilibrium price. This applies to goods and services as well as wages.

When the government creates a minimum wage that is higher than the market will bear (artificially increases wages above equilibrium) it has the effect of reducing demand from the employers, as they are less willing to hire people at a higher wage and an increased supply of people willing to work at that higher wage. This creates a shortage of jobs (unemployment) as the firms will higher less people. But it gets better!

Not only do firms hire less people creating unemployment, but because wages acrossed the board have been increased you and more money is in circulation, which is a rightward shift of the money supply, which not only creates inflation (prices increase due to more money chasing the same amount of goods), but ALSO has the effect of increasing interest rates as prices are the determining factor of interest rates in the long run. But it gets better yet!

Higher interest rates will effect many things to include loans that you want, but will also stunt nationwide investment as interest rates are higher for everyone, but not only that but higher interest rates ALSO depreciate the dollar making it less appealing to foreign investors, reducing foreign influx and possibly causing an increase in the current account deficit,

You see, when you follow the chain of events in economics you find that government meadling is bad for everyone. This concludes todays lesson on why a "minimum wage" is a bad idea.

This is so incredibly laughable.

Talk about a pathetic group of individuals.

When do our descendants get to sue for these people wrongfully accusing our current generation of acts which _we_ did not commit?

I don't think I've seen a more flagrant example of passing the buck in ages!

I hope these fools are counter-sued! That would be a riot!

garbage

snore.........

Dude, the guy was being sarcastic, you didn't need to get all over his shit.


If blacks can sue for slavery, can I sue the Spanish for forcing my ancestors to convert to Catholisism? Because of that shit, I was subjected to countless hours of bullshit, I deserve a payday.

These fucking people need to get a life. I hate saying this, but let's just get them a one-way ticket to Rowanda. I'm sure their heritage will take them far there.

Rowanda is on the other side of the continent of Africa. most of the slaves came to America from the west side of Africa(Sierria Leone, Nigeria, Ghana, etc). that contry had little to nothing do with the American slave trade. South America is a different story...

Beg pardon, but the western coast of Africa is where they boarded the slave ships...they were not captured there.

yeah... they actually boarded the ships from benin, or pretty much all of them anyways, i've actually been to the beach that they left from...

um...west coast is where they were captured. a great majority of the people from the west coast were sent to europe and north amererica. People from the southern and southeastrn side were taken to what is now south america, the carribean islands(bahamas, trinidad and tobago, haiti, etc), cuba, and whatnot...
i still can't help but think what the continent of africa would be like today if the europeans had never "discovered" the place...

Gah! This pisses me off. Yes, you're ancestors were brought over as slaves, yes it sucked, yes they were unfairly treated, and yes it was immoral. Now that thats out of the way, Quite making excuses for you're own problems. Suing some company will not make things better.
Sweet merciful crap, just drop it and move on, you only make the black community look bad.

sounds like greedy people trying to get some easy money to me. Hey, at least they tried, but no cigar.

I'm also glad the courts found the allegations to be ridiculous

Well, I guess the fact that these companies have been BUILT on and have PROFITTED on slavery has NOTHING to do with it... with the intention of PROFITTING by forcebly keeping people in slavery isn't a factor either..

Here's an DOCUMENTED FACT: They came and "bought" people who clearly did not belong to them, ship them half a world away, make then pick their cotton and tobacco and all that whatnot, never paid them a cent, forced long hours on them, beat, raped, killed, lynched for sport, force them into servitude, made them even breed to make more slaves for them (Do this for about 7 generations..) Tell them they have no rights and never will be "equal", steal their culture and make them understand yours, all the while the "owners" are doing it all just to make money and become multimillionaries, and you tell me you have a "problem understanding why this lawsuit is happening.

How blind some of you can be, it isn't about "payback".

Look between the lines..

Now, they have the "hand caught in the cookiejar".

This is a "genetic fingerprint" that big business went only with the intention of getting slaves...

And "IF" I made a product that clearly causes death and sickness, and then injected more chemicals just to make it even more addictive, how quick would they pull it off the market and I'd get sued?
Big money talks..
Ray Charles is blind, are you too?

I guess if I took of you over there to work a diamond or gold mine and hit it big and made millions and didn't pay you anything at all, you'd sue..

Oh... DeBeers Diamond Inc. has already done that.... and Exxon.. and Mobil... and BG.... and...

Ah-I think that's crap. No harm done to them, or their parents, or their parents.

These companies' names were built on slavery yes. They profited from it. The people working there now, years later, have nothing in common with the people then, they are mostly not even related. They are just as much opposed to slavery as you are, as are we all. They supplied the BOATS, they didn't sell any slaves, they didn't buy any slaves, they supplied boats and insurance for them, as they did for other trading routes just the same (spices, soap, ... ) Slavery wasn't illegal then, and for most people not even morally reprehensible at that time ( different times, different morals).
So the people working there at that time, were only indirectly involved, and the people working there now, are not even directly involved with the people that were indirectly involved then.

The people sueing now, are not the grandchildren, or even the great-grandchildren of those slaves.
They can very well be genetically linked to those slaves over several generations, I agree. But how did it affect them? really? Explain to me how it had an influence on *their* lives?

If you're going to say that afterwards for generations they were put down, and kept small and such... that's a thing society did called racism, not something the FedEx of the time did..

I can tell you how it affected their lives. It affected their lives in a positive way too. IT LET THEM LIVE IN AMERICA, which i'm sure the majority of black people would agree that it's a hell of a better place than africa. The fact of the matter is that african's enslave each other all the time. It's not like we ripped them out of the "black utopia" that many people seem to think africa was. Back then slavery was just a part of culture. We just jumped on the bandwagon. If they're still pissed off about it, I would be more than happy to give my tax dollars to let them go back to africa. But if they enjoy their lives here in america then they need to STFU!! My ancestors had rough times too beyatch.

Listen, first clean up your post.

2nd: Back then living in America wasn't a pleasure, so take your flag waving and shove it. They weren't given a choice, the same choice you choose to exercise right now. Tobacco and shipping became the BIGGEST industry in the world at that time because of slavery, and all those companies that still exist, wether or not if the people who work there now have nothing to do with what went on.
Your ancestors might have had it rough, but yours weren't forced into being slaves. Yours weren't denied equal rights until about 30 odd years ago.

But yet the first person to die for YOUR rights as an AMERICAN and for what became the Proclamation of Independence and the Constitution
in the American Revolution wasn't one of "you's", it was a FREED AFRICAN.

Now, between the 1st President to the 15th, slavery prospered, the businesses then are those mentioned now. The 16th President put it in WRITING to abolish slavery and the Civil War was created by people who want to keep the Black Americans in chains. He even gotten assasinated by another so called American who wanted slavery to continue because of these same businesses was losing profit. From the 17th to the 37th President, the ammendments in place FINALLY took effect. So, in a nutshell, you have over 400 years headstart on indifference to the Black American for them to achieve equality. You think big business shouldn't compensate for SOMETHING for 400 years work they got for free?

Historically proven, the American Navy got so big back then not to patrol and keep America safe but to make bigger ships to carry SLAVES, financed by the BANKS for a percentage of the SLAVE trade, and morgaged the BOATS to the TOBACCO growers, who provided the cash. Now it is PROVEN through forensic evidence that these companies were there.
I want to see them squirm..

The Jews, who were persecuted and forced into forced slavery during the Holocaust, had their cases heard and many companies were caught profitting from them, and they got fined and had to pay compensation. Why not America's turn?
They have been doing it much longer than what they German's did to the Jews.

Your history lesson is over.
You just got 0wn3d.


*continue your debate, if you can.*

OK, but why do these 8 individuals deserve anything at all?

It's a CLASS ACTION suit, not only for just the 8 of them... And it seems like they can actually PROVE with evidence how these companies affected them and their ancestors. They will most likely get laughed and ridiculed because IF they CAN prove it and it held weight, imagine the floodgates it will open. Almost EVERY BLACK AMERICAN can PROVE it just by showing his linage 5 generations back. Thats why we might forgive how we were treated then, but NEVER forget "OUR" history.

*ADDED Random FACT*

Every President that has tried to enforce equality to Black Americans has been ASSASINATED.

Things that make you go "Hmmmmmm....?"

Ask yourself "Why"? The answer might scare you...

.... and SLAVERY was NEVER a culture, dude.

It's like the German's were saying, "Sticking the Jews in an oven is quite the fashion this time of the year...."

Excuse me for being blunt, but this is a very serious topic, and I need to point out the severity of this charges being made against "Big Businesses" that has profitted because of slavery..


I wonder what book you are reading that from?

Yours weren't denied equal rights until about 30 odd years ago.

but this lawsuit isn't about equal rights. it's about the slave trade.

But yet the first person to die for YOUR rights as an AMERICAN and for what became the Proclamation of Independence and the Constitution
in the American Revolution wasn't one of "you's", it was a FREED AFRICAN.

sorta. crispus attucks death in the boston massacre is often cited as the first. others consider the battle of lexington, 6 years later, to hold the first death. doesn't really matter. you know how crispus died? he and a lot of other people were taunting the british gaurds throwing sticks and one of the guns was accidently fired. doesn't sound like he died some noble death.

Now, between the 1st President to the 15th, slavery prospered, the businesses then are those mentioned now. The 16th President put it in WRITING to abolish slavery and the Civil War was created by people who want to keep the Black Americans in chains. He even gotten assasinated by another so called American who wanted slavery to continue because of these same businesses was losing profit.

not to be rude/mean, but if you think this was the cause, then you have a very juvenile understanding of the causes of the civil war and the reason for the emanciption proclimation. it's much more complicated than that, and slavery was merely a piece in the pie.

From the 17th to the 37th President, the ammendments in place FINALLY took effect. So, in a nutshell, you have over 400 years headstart on indifference to the Black American for them to achieve equality. You think big business shouldn't compensate for SOMETHING for 400 years work they got for free?

well, last time i checked, indifference to a group doesn't hold them back. also, if big business got 400 years of free work, then they must have been around and america colonized and ready for slaves by 1463. slavery in america lasted about 200-250 years, when you consider the first colony at james town was in the early 1600's, and slaves did not arrive right with them, nor did they arrive in any real numbers right away.

Historically proven, the American Navy got so big back then not to patrol and keep America safe but to make bigger ships to carry SLAVES, financed by the BANKS for a percentage of the SLAVE trade, and morgaged the BOATS to the TOBACCO growers, who provided the cash.

okay, you're gonna need to do some proof show'n, cause i've studied pre-civil war american history in college, and i've never heard that.

Now it is PROVEN through forensic evidence that these companies were there.

i'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't really mean this. there is no forensic evidence. there are records and files. that is not forensic evidence. forensic evidence would be hair and fingerprints and blood left at a crime scene.


I want to see them squirm..

so your (appearantly) biased desire to see them squirm makes you more right then us?

The Jews, who were persecuted and forced into forced slavery during the Holocaust, had their cases heard and many companies were caught profitting from them, and they got fined and had to pay compensation.

they did not sue because they were put into slavery. they sued because they were robbed of their possesions and put into concentration camps and killed. it is not the same as owning a slave in order to get work out of him. those that went to the camps were put there to be productive until they died of illness or starvation. slaves were not treated nearly as bad as the jews were. also, the world there was a different place and time, with different moralities. no laws were broken. you may not like it, and it may have sucked majorly for them, but that was the way of the world. the african's enslved the africans too. actually, until the 14-1500s, slavery was not race based and anyone could be a slave. i'm not sure what caused the change, but it's not america's fault.

also, you can compensate a holocaust survivor or direct descendent for the loses caused by the nazi's. how do you compensate someone for something that may or may not have been lost, how much is not known, and a direct relation cannot really be proven? i know that if my dad dies, my mom, or the next direct surviving relative gets an insurance check and inheratance. but someone 10 generations away? no, they wouldn't get squat. especially if you can't prove a direct relationship. hell, why not give me compensation for the Spanish Inquisition. I'm a jew, their stuff was stolen and they were killed if they didn't convert. since i'm a jew, i must be elegable.
They have been doing it much longer than what they German's did to the Jews.

Your history lesson is over.
You just got 0wn3d.


*continue your debate, if you can.*

i would have to say that you got owned, if for no other reason then claiming owned status before owning occured, and the debate can continue.

It's a CLASS ACTION suit, not only for just the 8 of them... And it seems like they can actually PROVE with evidence how these companies affected them and their ancestors. They will most likely get laughed and ridiculed because IF they CAN prove it and it held weight, imagine the floodgates it will open. Almost EVERY BLACK AMERICAN can PROVE it just by showing his linage 5 generations back. Thats why we might forgive how we were treated then, but NEVER forget "OUR" history.

did you even read the article? it's not a class action suit. there are only 8 plaintiffs. and they are "accusing them of profiting by committing genocide against their ancestors." i'd have to say bringing them over to work, while not caring too much about their welfare, is far from genocide. going out and trying to kill them all would be genocide.

*ADDED Random FACT*

Every President that has tried to enforce equality to Black Americans has been ASSASINATED.

if you're gonna throw that out, please, back it "f" up.

Ask yourself "Why"? The answer might scare you...

especially when you realise it's not quite that simple.

.... and SLAVERY was NEVER a culture, dude.

no, but it's been apart of the ruling culture since the beginning of times. it's just a matter of whose on top and whose on bottom at the time.

It's like the German's were saying, "Sticking the Jews in an oven is quite the fashion this time of the year...."

don't throw jokes into a serious debate, it makes me smile and that just throws off my A game. jk... and i don't think that's a real german saying, sounds more like a joke said about them.

Excuse me for being blunt, but this is a very serious topic, and I need to point out the severity of this charges being made against "Big Businesses" that has profitted because of slavery..


you're right, it is a serious topic. and "big business," other than tobacco, did not profit off of slaves. they profited off of trading and insuring merchandise. if it wasn't slaves, it would have been tea, or ink, or any number of other things. not that that makes slavery right. but it was legal...

Monetary awards from lawsuits only come in two categories - compensatory and punitive.

So which is it they're claiming - do they deserve compensation for the way people 7 generations removed from them were treated? Can they even prove that lineage? I certainly couldn't.

Or is it punitive - to prevent people who have been dead for 150 years from repeating their misdeeds?

Yes, slavery was a very bad thing. It was also the norm for thousands of years. Without slavery, there would have been no Greek culture to sow the seeds of democracy; no Roman culture to civilize Europe and the Middle East; no Egyptian culture to build the pyramids. And no - that still doesn't make it right. I'm not defending it - it was how the world functioned for millennia.

And please don't compare slavery to the Holocaust - wrong as it was, slavery was legal until 1865; what the Nazis did to the Jews and others was genocide - there was no other reason for it other than the annihilation of a people. No commerce; no profit; no food production. Just death.

If these losers put as much into their jobs or education as they put into getting free money, they wouldn't need the money.

hannukah harry,

I didn't insult your intelligence, don't try to play with mine.

You obviously DON"T KNOW JACK about Black American history.

Don't worry, I do.. It's people like me that will be RIGHT here to remind people like you who needs "PROOF". We have shit-loads of history AND proof, but can you accept it? You have documented history that will make your head spin. And still, all you can say is "You want proof?"


First this is what the lawsuits are about these Issues:

Determining whether or not the descendants of African slaves brought to the U.S. should be repaid for the work and suffering of their ancestors.

Determining who should be held accountable for the repayment.

Determining who would be eligible to receive any such payment.

And determining how any such payment would be made to those eligible, e.g. in the form of cash, governmental benefits, a verbal apology, land grants, education benefits, etc.

History Lesson #2

PROOF:
Lawyers for the eight plaintiffs said the complaint _ unlike past suits seeking reparations for slavery _ was the first to use DNA to link the plaintiffs to Africans who suffered atrocities during the slave trade. ..
DNA testing has made a "direct connection" between Farmer-Paellmann and the Mende tribe in Sierra Leone, whose people "were kidnapped, tortured and shipped in chains to the United States," the suit said.

Scientific evidence also has linked the other plaintiffs to tribes in Niger and Gambia, the suit said. ...

The American Revolution started way back, BEFORE 1776, look up the history.

How the hell you get "accidently" shot TWICE?

I know, I know!! The soldier had his finger stuck on "Auto-fire" and it shot until the clip emptied..
Read, dude.. http://search.eb.com/blackhistory/micro/40/36.html

(b. 1723?--d. March 5, 1770, Boston, Mass. [U.S.]), American hero and martyr of the Boston Massacre.
Attucks' life prior to the day of his death is still shrouded in mystery. Most historians say that he was black; others argue that his ancestry was both African and Natick Indian. In any event, in the fall of 1750, a resident of Framingham, Mass., advertised for the recovery of a runaway slave named Crispus--usually thought to be the Crispus in question. In the 20-year interval between his escape from slavery and his death at the hands of British soldiers, Attucks probably spent a good deal of time aboard whaling ships.

All that is definitely known about him concerns the Boston Massacre on March 5, 1770. Toward evening that day, a crowd of colonists gathered and began taunting a small group of British soldiers. Tension mounted rapidly, and when one of the soldiers was struck the others fired their muskets, killing three of the Americans instantly and mortally wounding two others. Attucks was the first to fall, thus becoming one of the first men to lose his life in the cause of American independence. His body was carried to Faneuil Hall, where it lay in state until March 8, when all five victims were buried in a common grave. Attucks was the only victim of the Boston Massacre whose name was widely remembered. In 1888 the Crispus Attucks monument was unveiled in the Boston Common.


Dude, what the hell you think "Emancipation Proclimation" was all about? The States fought a Civil War because Abraham Lincoln ABOLISHED SLAVERY and the southern states REBELLED against AN EXECUTIVE ORDER. Don't belittle it, too many dead AMERICAN soldiers and my family STILL waits for that 40 acres and a mule..

Background: During the Reconstruction Period following the Civil War, slaves were promised "forty acres and a mule" to help them start their lives as 'free men'. The promise was never kept and the idea of reparations began to grow. The debt owed to African-American descendants of slaves for work and suffering has been estimated anywhere between $1.6 and $777 trillion by those in favor of reparations.
The Case For: Those in favor of slavery reparations argue that compensation promised to slaves upon their release was never paid. Proponents cite the years of labor, horrendous conditions, rape and beatings at the hands of their owners and veritable construction of the country as reasons for the debt that is owed. Deadria Farmer-Paellmann, the plaintiff in the most recent case against U.S. corporations for slavery reparations states, "These are corporations that benefited from stealing people, from stealing labor, from forced breeding, from torture, from committing numerous horrendous acts, and there's no reason why they should be able to hold onto assets they acquired through such horrendous acts." Farmer-Paellmann's case cites "unpaid labor" as the cause of the compensatory damages she and her lawyers are seeking.
Slaves came over on the same ship as Christopher Columbus and in fact it has been recently PROVEN that he was too busy chasing savage ass and a slave "found" America, but to get back on point at hand...

The practice of capturing Blacks from Africa, to use as slaves began with the Portuguese, who introduced African slaves to Europe in the 16th century. European countries, such as Spain and England, introduced slavery to their colonies in the New World. Many explorers had African slaves on their voyages.

Another excerpt: The transatlantic trade in black slaves began in 1517, when the first slaves were shipped to American colonies. It endured until the threshold of the 20th century. By then an estimated 11 million Africans had been SOLD..

Lemme see... 1517 + 400 = 1917.... That's about right....
400 years.

(This is when Big Business in America got into making slavery PROFITABLE.:)

In 1637 the first slave ship was built in Massachusetts. The slave ships sailed from America to the west coast of Africa. It is important to understand that the Africans living on the west coast of Africa, did not consist of primitive tribes, but was a well developed civilization, with complex economic and political institutions.

The slave traders acquired their Africans in one of two ways. One was very simple. The slave trader would lie in wait until an African would come along, and capture them. The other was a little more complicated. The slave trader would make an alliance with a tribal chief. This tribal chief would wage war on a neighboring tribe. Any of the enemy that the chief captured he would trade for goods, such as tobacco, and liquor, with the slave traders.

The means of acquiring the Africans was kind compared to how they were treated once aboard the slave ship. The more Africans the slave traders crammed into the ship, the more profit they would make once they sold their goods in America. Africans were chained together and made to lie shoulder to shoulder in the dark hull of the ship, where no fresh air ever found its way. So stifling was the air, that some Africans actually suffocated during the long voyage.
*I don't see where they really had the opportunity for luxury...*
An estimated 15 million Africans were transported to the Americas between 1540 and 1850. To maximize their profits slave merchants carried as many slaves as was physically possible on their ships. A House of Commons committee in 1788 discovered that one slave-ship, The Brookes, was originally built to to carry a maximum of 451 people, but was carrying over 600 slaves from Africa to the Americas.

Chained together by their hands and feet, the slaves had little room to move. It has been estimated that only about half of the slaves taken from Africa became effective workers in the Americas. A large number of slaves died on the journey from diseases such as smallpox and dysentery. Others committed suicide by refusing to eat. Many of the slaves were crippled for life as a consequence of the way they were chained up on the ship.

By the 17th century slaves could be purchased in Africa for about $25 and sold in the Americas for about $150. After the slave-trade was declared illegal, prices went much higher. Even with a death-rate of 50 per cent, merchants could expect to make tremendous profits from the trade.

*Even Insurance compnaies was in on this*
Already, research has determined that several insurers were involved in providing slave insurance policies to slave owners. Deadria Farmer-Paellmann, an attorney, has discovered an 1852 circular that named some of the insurers that serviced these policies. The National Loan Fund Life Assurance Company of London distributed a circular entitled "A Method by Which Slave Owners May Be Protected From Loss" in which it named The Merchants Bank and The Leather Manufacturers Bank as institutions able to pay and adjust claims. The circular also included the names of medical examiners in Virginia, Washington DC, and North Carolina who were authorized to examine slaves and offer insurance policies. Under a typical policy, a 30-year-old slave could be insured for $500 with an annual premium of about $11.25.

The circular has exposed that Chase Manhattan was connected with slave insurance policies based upon its merger with two of the banks named in the circular. In 1920, the Merchants Bank merged with The Bank of the Manhattan Company, and in 1955 it merged with Chase. In 1904, The Leather Manufacturers Bank merged with The Mechanics National Bank, and then in 1926 merged with Chase. However, Chase is not alone, it has also been uncovered that Aetna was involved in slavery as well. In March of 2000, Aetna issued a public apology for its involvement in underwriting policies in the 1850s. Other companies include, New York Life, American Life Insurance Co., and Baltimore Life Insurance Co., which is not related to the present day insurer, The Baltimore Life Companies.


The lawsuit is the first of its kind and accuses insurer Aetna, railroad firm CSX and financial-services firm FleetBoston of profiting from the slave trade before it was abolished in 1865.
Ms Paellmann's complaint contends CSX, FleetBoston and Aetna were "unjustly enriched" by "a system that enslaved, tortured, starved and exploited human beings".

Some 35 million African Americans are the descendants of the eight million men and women who were enslaved from 1619 to 1865. The suit against FleetBoston alleges that the founder of the predecessor firm, Providence Bank, made much of his fortune in the slave trade.

According to the complaint, Rhode Island businessman John Brown owned slave ships and benefited from loans made by Providence Bank to help finance the voyages.
I almost want to tell you shut up and realize how stupid that sounded.... Jews were forced to work....

Ever heard of Volkswagon?

In a similar legal manoeuvre, survivors of the Holocaust secured $4bn in reparations from firms that used Nazi-era slave labour.

Those companies included Deutsche Bank, conglomerate Siemens and carmakers Volkswagen and DaimlerChrysler.
You go and think about it a while before rebuting me, I know MY history abit too WELL for you to tell me what you'd think you know against WHAT I do know...

Somebody needs to read the WHOLE article and it ain't me.

just like phyzix525, i have to say i'm speechless

By this statement I am assuming that you are black. I am also just assuming you live in america. If slavery never happened, you wouldn't live here. You would live in africa. If you want to argue this fact, go ahead and try, but if you like here, don't get too pissed that slavery happened.

It doesn't matter what it was like then, it matters what is like now considering the lawsuits are happening now and people involved exist now. So I'll refrain from shoving my flag waiving.

The jews got compensated because it happened to them, as in the people who received compensation experienced the holocoust. These people sueing did not experience slavery so they should not receive compensation.

As for continuing my debate, my last post still stands as your rebuttle didn't prove a thing. It just made you seem like you're making up facts to help your point. That and you went on about things i never said anything about. I really don't see how you could've OwnEd me when you never proved me wrong. Try again.

oh yeah, I'll clean up my post when you back up your facts.

I don't have to prove what is ALL READY PROVEN by HISTORY..
Read my last post.
Jews were sent to slave camps..
And gotten compensated, so did the Japanese.

GO look for it, it's out there..

On a lite, personal side of me:

And I got both sides of my ancestors fucked over if you want to know me personally, American Blackfoot Indian and Black American.... So tell me, which way you want me to correct you? I got my Indian ready to go....

And your last post DOESN'T stand because it has been rebuted and can be proven.

Just "GOOGLE" slavery and enjoy your reading...

Nobody can be your "beyatch" when you been "0wn3d" in a conversation.....

I refuse to allow anyone rewrite history without hearing both sides, and I won't let this thread go while there is an injustice to it.. Especially from people talking and replying to something I see they have no clue what it is all about. Just replying without understanding what things are about.....

hold on, let me go over the post in question
yep, pretty sure you never disproved a single thing i said. I never tried to rewrite history either. A lot of what you're saying is true, but it doesn't mean that these people deserve any compensation.
as for the beyatch said in my post, that was in referral to the title of the thread. It was never directed to you. However your "0wn3d" was clearly directed at me. You still have yet to "0wn3" me though.

How can YOU say how SLAVERY affected Black Americans is a POSITIVE thing? Who the hell are you to judge THAT? You just said being forced to come over to America to work under very horrible conditions in bondage was a beneficial. Are you insane?

Even if the Africans had enslaved other Africans, where did it give you IMMIGRANTS the right to put people in bondage, SELL them, make money and not even pay them a wage, build companies and buy more slaves, kill and rape slaves, put the children in born into slavery... Bah, you just proved how ignorant you really are..

"0wn3d" as in your opinion was disputed with FACTS.
"0wn3d very badly" when you don't even notice it.

"0wn3d" wasn't directed to you exclusively, just the overall discussion of this topic.. We had the same exact thread topic before and I hit it just as hard.. Don't take offense...

You talk about what you don't know, even with facts presented to you, you refuse to acknowledge them. Even when you been shown that your opinion was flawed.. Especially your use of "we" in a sentence.. "WE" who?

How far you want to drag this out, because I have lots of facts to knock whatever you bring out of the ball park..

sorry buddah... but I'm with the Sage of South Central Larry Elder...

I think that any of those reparations for the Japanese and the Jewish families were wrong and set the wrong precedent. I was against those too.

Note that the jewish people and the japanese people do follow a majority of the 32 listed below than any of the blacks complaining about their sitaution in the ghetto.

I think you yourself has demonstrated over the past year that I have known you that you too believe a number if not a majority of these 32.

http://www.larryelder.com/pledge.html

Personal Pledge 32
by Larry Elder

1. There is no excuse for lack of effort.
2. Although I may be unhappy with my circumstances, and although racism and sexism and other "isms" exist, I know that things are better now than ever, and the future is even brighter.
3. While I may be unhappy with my circumstances, I have the power to change and improve my life. I refuse to be a victim.
4. Others may have been blessed with more money, better connections, a better home environment, and even better looks, but I can succeed through hard work, perseverance, and education.
5. I may be a product of a single- or no-parent household, but I will not hold anyone responsible for my present, or allow anyone to interfere with my future. Others succeed under conditions far worse than mine.
6. Some schools and teachers are better than others, but my level of effort, dedication, curiosity, and willingness to grow determine what I learn.
7. Ambition is the key to growth.
8. I will set apart some time each day to think about where I want to go, and how I intend to get there. A goal without a plan is just a wish.
9. "Luck" is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.
10. If suitable role models are not nearby, I will seek them out.
11. A role model is someone who, through hard work and a positive outlook, has achieved.
12. A role model may be a parent, relative, friend, church member, judge, doctor, attorney, businessperson, or someone I've read about in the newspaper or seen on the local news.
13. I will contact role models and seek their advice, guidance, and counsel. People remember when they were my age and are eager to help.
14. I will seek out recommended magazines, articles, books, biographies, videos, and motivational and how-to books, and use them for education and motivation.
15. The light is always green. You cannot go full speed with one foot on the brake.
16. I am always "in school," and I will not waste my summer by failing to read about and speak to people who can inspire me.
17. I will avoid friendship with people who do not share my goals and commitments. Nonsupportive relationships waste time and energy.
18. I will not seek immediate results, as I understand life is a journey and not a destination.
19. I will read a newspaper each day.
20. I will entertain myself in ways that challenge and expand my mind. As someone said, a mind once expanded never returns to its original size.
21. I will pay attention to my diet and overall fitness, as they are the keys to a healthy and productive body and an enthusiastic mind.
22. Drugs are stupid. People who believe in drugs don't believe in themselves.
23. I understand that jobs of the future require more preparation and training than ever, and I am determined to obtain the necessary background.
24. A well-rounded, competent student studies math and science.
25. People are not born "deficient in mathematical ability." Through hard work and dedication, the subject can be mastered.
26. It is essential that I learn to speak and write standard English. This is not "acting white," but acting smart.
27. A strong vocabulary is the key to communication, and I will read books on vocabulary enrichment.
28. I expect sometimes to be teased, even ridiculed. This will not stop me; it will only make me stronger and more determined.
29. I control my body and will not create a child until I am spiritually, psychologically, educationally, and financially capable of assuming this awesome responsibility.
30. Life is difficult. I expect setbacks and will learn from them. Struggle creates strength.
31. Every day is precious, and one without growth is squandered.
32. There is only one me, and I'm it!

And I am supposed to believe what someone else other than me set a standard I should set for myself? What does that have to do with slavery?

How'd you feel if I took one of you and made you work for me in the same kind of conditions and have your next 10 generations work for my next 10 generations and I build a nice company from your families hard work and never pay them a dime?

I can see some of you rather not work a job at Burger King because it doesn't pay the right kind of money for you, so working for free is out of the question. But if your cousin sold you to me, you'd have no say in it would you? Or do you?

Think out of YOUR box and see it for what it is.

I never said slavery was beneficial. I just said that because of slavery, african americans today (including you) live in america...which is most likely better living conditions than africa. If you don't think living in america is a positive thing, then leave.

How does it make me ignorant to know that africans enslaved each other. I just backed up my fact that slavery was culture and america and europe jumped on the bandwagon. Slavery was bad. I never said it wasn't. I just said america didn't start anything new.


you still have yet to disprove a single thing i've said. Until that happens you will never "0wn3" me, no matter how many pointless facts you throw out there.

Then don't take offense to what I say.

you talk as if i've said something i haven't. I will say sorry about the "we" though. I should've just used america, but then again you should argue about that when you use "you immigrants".

yeah, i can see you do have a lot of facts. They still haven't disproved what I've said, and until that time comes, I will keep reminding you that you have yet to disprove me.

Slavery was never a culture, I don't know where and how you got that idea. And it was never a fact, so where is YOUR proof it ever was? I showed you proof it never was. How would you know what the living conditions are in Africa if you haven't been there? Are you comparing actions that were done over hundreds over years ago to today's standards? How hypocritical!

You "think" you haven't been proven wrong, your OPINION cannot stand against the weight of a fact or history, you are just being thick headed. You say I have "yet" to prove you wrong but you are only "right" in you head and that head alone. You have not brought ONE shred of "proof" in your statements, so yet you have no platform. So, wanna go for "totally 0wn3d" or what? Bring proof to your statements, I grow tired of discussing with the unarmed....

Your love it or leave attitude, is quite ignorant to the fact how many SLAVES where forced back to people who claimed to be their owners. I wonder how many were killed or maimed trying to escape. Leave? Hell no, now its time for American to deal with it's OWN problem it created...

What's wrong with acknowledging the fact Slave owners need to set things straight to the families of what their establishment was built on? No one wants to give what is owed.. PAID in Blood.

You cannot stand straight in the light of reason and say what was done was culture or a right. Americans had NO RIGHT to go to Africa and bring them over here, use them all up and now want to cast their backs on them. No matter what you say.

And if you want to be PC, you'd leave before me because "you are on Native American Indian "land" that was stolen too....

AND another thought comes to mind: Why does America spend so much money for Israel (WAY OVER THERE....) then dealing and spending money on AMERICANS right over here? Black Americans have fought and died in EVERY MAJOR AMERICAN CONFLICT in the name of AMERICA. Can we get alittle respect, or we are good enough to die and fight for America, but cannot be treated equal enough? We helped build it EVERY step of the way...

And as a sidenote:
*points to the original topic*
Seems this thread drifted quite a bit.

Still not sure why that specific company can be put up as the devil incarnate. Because of alot of highly indirect, circumstantial evidence, that's all it takes apparently.

Do research on the matter and you'll see why those companies specifically and such a lawsuit.
I have too much ammo for this kind of topic because I answered one here just so recently.
I have done research and I know the history. So step up and get served.. Who's next?

Guess my answer was already given, somehow I missed it the first time I read the article. That was the point I was getting at, can't speak my opinion without reading all the evidence though.

-----
as for researching the matter:
No, I'm not black. I am even not an american. I didn't even know any of these companies and neither do I know the plaintiffs.
What I came up with when looking into the article, the lawsuit and the 3 enterprises, goes like this:

Out of the 3 companies, only R.J. Reynolds strikes me as a possibility with a direct connection, as a tobacco producer. The other companies are into the financial sector, and from what I can tell, have always been in that sector. So the only reason they are in this lawsuit, is because they have the money to be able to "afford" this and were once remotely connected.

When you read the article in detail (which I'll admit I hadn't at first), you'll see this has nothing to do with slavery itself, but with what went on *during* the slave trade. So what went on on the market and during the boat-trip. Not what went on at the plantations themselves. So that's the kind of lawsuit they were thinking of having.

I hardly see how you can destroy somebody's ethnic identity while on board with a very select group of people. You cannot make the accept whitey-culture, since in % there are hardly white people on board. There are butchers and bullies to keep them in shackles, sure. But not people that would try to manipulate them in any way on a mental level, especially not for a whole tribe.
And again, I do agree all sorts of atrocious acts may be committed on those people themselves, but they have no effect on the claim the plaintiffs are making.

A lot of what you have said has made some sence, but I am sorry this has to be the most ignorant statment on this board. Jews and japanese people were compensated because what was done to them was illegal. The jews were not betrayed by their own people and sold to the germans as laborors. As much as you may not like it, it was legal at the time to have slaves. The africans that were brought here were sold by other african tribes that conquered them in war, if you want to sue anyone try sueing your own people. oh wait thats right they have no money. so take ours instead. You want reporations? well how is the welfare and food stamps we as a government have been giving to the african american community for years?

Err, they give out food stamps and welfare to the caucasians too, just so you know :p

And the fact that they "paid" for "conquered" slaves is highly disputable. For one, they gave them a currency that was without value in exchange for slaves. And 2, they didn't really have an option, because the colonists' weaponry was superior, and they would have just as easily deported whole tribes (which happened just the same) if they put up much of a fight.

okay, i'll admit that everything i've said thus far is wrong if you'll do one thing for me. admit to yourself that

are you ready for this

If slavery never happened, your life (along with the vast majority of african americans that are living today) wouldn't be as good.

say that and i'll admit defeat. But then again, that's the only thing i've been trying to say this whole time really.

for a post back on topic, i just thought of a great analogy. My grandparents and great grandparents lived through the great depression (as i'm sure many people's ancestors did). They were in the group of many who had to travel around looking for work for farmers and got paid like a nickel an hour or something (I'm too lazy to look it up but it was an incredibly small amount). Every cent they made went towards food (I know this because I've heard it from my grandparents mouths). They also had nothing because they came over to america just before the great depression (they left germany because of WW1). The farmers that paid these low wages profited from my ancestors work.

Wait a minute....now there is this thing called minimum wage. Should I go look for every farmer my grandparents and great grandparents worked for and demand them to give ME the extra $5.10 for every hour they worked? That seems pretty absurd to me even though the extra cash would be nice.

Wether it was right or wrong, it was legal to pay ungodly low wages back then, just like how it was legal to not pay slaves at all when slavery was legal.

Yeah I know I have had to use food stamps before once, but what group has the highest % using them, or are on welfare?

phyzix525,
when will you get it into your head SLAVERY was NEVER LEGAL? And while you are at it, think if people gave Black Americans a fair shake instead of giving them the shitty end of the stick every time, you still cannot say that America is giving Blacks a fair chance even today.

yatzr,
no matter what you say, i am not going agree on such BS because from my stand point Slavery was wrong.

You might want to notice even though the Holocaust survivors got compensated for the "forced labor", most of the survivors lived under those conditions similar to the slaves for far less than a time slaves did.
Even slaves children weren't theirs but the "Master's". And this went on for many generations. Slavery, in most people's minds is when you think of the old days of the cotton picking days of the early 1700's. Slavery didn't end until the early 1930's. That ended 20 years before the Holocaust.

Now, you think you can look me in the eye and tell me that 400 years of slavery is ok?

Caucasians comprise the highest percentage of people accepting welfare--and I'm not counting corporate welfare.

Once we do that, the shit hits the fan.

buddha, you tell people to look outside the box when you never take a glance outside your own. Yes, slavery was bad. It was horrible, and I too wish it didn't happen. I'm not trying to make you think it wasn't bad. All I'm saying is that there has been at least ONE benefit from it.

No matter how bad slavery was, it's not going to change the fact that it's the only reason the majority of african americans live in america. We can debate which place has better living conditions if you like, but even dave chappelle agrees that living conditions in africa suck. I just want you to see this fact.

This certainly doesn't get any of us any closer to healing race relations.

That is the attitude that we are sick and tired of hearing. poor us everyone hates us and nobody gives us anything. Blacks have the same opportunites as anyone else, in fact maybe more. Its not as if you don't have the chance to get a good education, there are plenty of black only scolorship programs, and now with affirmative action, its not like you can't get a decent job and make a good living. Its the black peoples choice to do what they want with there lives and not expect hand-outs like so many of them do. (including these eight) Even when trying to start your own business the government is more likely to loan you money if you are black or a woman. Us white males are discrimiated against too. Funny though you don't hear us crying about it so often.

Of those useing it yes, there are more white people in the country, but the % that use it, compared to the % that do not is what I mean.

Ok these #s are purly for illustraion purposes, but say there are 20 million people on welefare, and 10 million are white 5 million are black and the rest are everyone else. There are say 200 million white people in the counrty, that make the % of white people on welfare about 5 %. now say there are only 50 million blacks, that would be 10%. white make up the higher % but not compared to total population if that makes sence.

And guess WHO has benefited more than the Black Americans than the Blacks for being here?


First off, Why do you think something like AFFIRMATIVE ACTION was created? Because people like you "white guys" still wouldn't even honor The Constitution or the Ammendments that said you have to treat Blacks as equals, so you were "forced" to do it. (oh BOO-HOO.. it's not fair, Blacks have A.A. and now they have it a bit easier now.) If you started fair from the begining, shit like that wouldn't have to be "forced" on society..

Second, the schools are not giving the SAME levels of education to minorities as they have for Caucasians. Teachers don't give the same intensity of instructions to minorities in school. Black scholarships were created by Blacks because Caucasians STILL don't allow Blacks to go to certain schools. You say these eight are looking for hand-outs, what about all those businesses that went to Africa and got their hand-out and profitted from slavery? (Someone held up a sign and said "Come to Africa, we want to work for free..?) When they saw they can get slaves AND not pay them, they sent FLEETS of ships over there and didn't ask the people if they wanted to come over..

Thirdly, TODAY'S society is still STACKED in the caucasian's favor
so you get a break more often than a minority. And you know that, so that's why we don't hear you crying about it so much.

Remeber this?
"Give me your tired, your poor, huddled masses..."

Of all the ethnicities that makes this great country, (Jews, Gentiles, German, Chinese, Japanese, Dutch, Spanish, etc...)
Besides the true first Americans,: WHICH ethnic group that has been here before America's first 13 states where even formed, WAS FORCED here and ENSLAVED?

Land of the free? Not for them.... Now when they all profit and MADE profit from selling, shipping and insuring farmowners "their" Blacks, even traded them like livestock (even which livestock was better treated and fed better.) you want Blacks to turn a blind eye to it? You want to say, "That was the past, so lets get by it and start anew? You recall Sept. 11th? Think that was an atrocity?

Slavery has killed more Blacks than al Qaeda..
All in the name of business....

Here's something to give you to think about....

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poe...g/lynch_01.jpg

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poe...g/lynch_02.jpg

I had 2 of my grandfather's brothers go out like that.
Why? Just because they where Black and American Indian and they were told they couldn't "own" the land they lived on and were killed for it, and was being "forced" into slavery even though neither of them were ever a slave.
Guess what grows in this land they were own?

Tobacco. Guess who owns it now?

Many Black Slaves that were "freed" never gotten that promised the STATES made to own land and a mule. Tell me what agreement the STATES ever made they carried through? Not to the Indians, not to the Blacks.
The it was time to honor it, too bad they might have to pay up for it...

BuDDaH: you're not willing to accept anything he says, and he's not willing to do the same.

Can't we just finish this thread up? This is getting out of hand and is already besides the point.

I am sure the "back" function on your browser works, so use it.
Second, no, it isn't besides the point.

I educated those that want to believe anything beside the truth, I am not afraid to bring it in anyones face..

Being Belgian, I can understand your lack of knowledge in a discussion like this, so I'll forgive you.
Most of the people are replying in negative responses to the article and they don't even understand the grounds the lawsuit is made on.

They think the Black Americans are looking for a "hand-out". Most of this lawsuit is based on the promise the government made with the "Emancipation Proclamation".
(40 acres and a mule were GUARANTEED to slave and freed slaves.) It was never honored.

But I cannot let something get misconstrued and not speak about it. I am not saying anything that is "my" point, everything I have shown has been a DOCUMENTED fact. And what has been going on, is all I hear is someone's opinion with NO facts to back it up.

In other words, if you have nothing more to add on, then move along to another thread...

If you stay on, prepared to get schooled..

If this discussion is necessary, then why not make a different thread about it.

This originally wasn't about racism and A.A. at all.

If you want somebody's opinion with facts to back it up, read yatzr's post.

It's a documented fact that you are living in america, and so are alot of other black people. Just take out your ID.

It's also a documented fact, that living conditions in africa are alot worse. Just read any newspaper, any magasine, any report on the matter.
So while you are maybe not in the most equal position, couldn't it be possible you are better off in the US than there?

That's all he was saying really.

You told me to research the lawsuit and to research the companies. I did so, and still am not convinced. Yet you let that pass. Is it because I am right then? Is it because it's not worth explaining just because it wasn't asked by an american? Is that why I was forgiven?

And just because I made a suggestion you don't like, shouldn't mean I have to get out of the thread.

What I said still stands...


I am not arguing HIS point. You need to see what the original START of this thread and how it started.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wi...-regional-wire

The Americans stole people from Africa, then dumped them after using them for generations. It doesn't matter if HE thinks Black Americans are better off living in America than in Africa.
I believe if you are born here, you are American. If you can prove your linage and find the people responsible for that and PROVE they made money off your family by SLAVERY, they should be held accountable. They DENIED those people the FREE WILL and CHOICE from their lives. Someone must be held accountable for that. They took over 15,000,000 people out of Africa. Africa was a very much advanced country then at that time, what if they NEVER came there?

Africa might not be in the shape it is in now had not people depleted and exploited it for its diamonds, gold, oil and other natural resources. (I bet you didn't look at it the other way around, did you?)
I did.

And so does what I said :)

I did see the original start of this thread. If you'll read my other posts, that's the whole reason I started arguing here :)

Here's what I believe: you are born there, you are american. You may make a claim if you find the people responsible. Exactly like you.

In this case, they didn't. That's what the judge ruled. That there wasn't a direct link, so they shouldn't/can't be held accountable.

And africa might be a very different continent, indeed. It might still have it's same structure and culture. However there is no proving that now, is there?
I'm sorry to say I had thought this through. And if you would do research on belgium, you'd know we have direct connections to the matter, so it's not a wonder my thoughts took me there.

So, they *did* take them to america. How about they had left yours there? Then you would still be living there, in the current circumstances...
Now see my point? And yatzr's?
We're not arguing that it was bad. We're not arguing whether it happened. We're just saying all in all, you didn't get the short end of it. Those that were left behind in the remnants, and more so their descendants, did.

What you ask has been proven before and you are speaking about fact thats the general American public knows about those companies. It isn't for mr to convince you about something most Americans know but don't want to see.. And they have PROOF and RECORDS to BACK their claims up.

But doing that is like making cigarette compnaies responsible for all cancer victims who smoked..

That would break up alot of big businesses..

But just for you, I'll make a thread and really bring all those points to light.
Then, you'll see what this is all about..

And sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was putting you down...

Ok, I'm glad you would take the effort :)

And don't worry, even if you sounded like that, I wouldn't start to flame or anything. I enjoy a good discussion.

So sad, so true.

Seriously you have to back this one up, I cannot believe there is a school in america that would not allow blacks, even in alabama. There would be people protesting everyday outside its doors. I would be right there with them.(shocker!) The only thing that should keep someone from going to a school (outside of gender) is not being able to pass the entrance exam.

On a related note, I don't know if you heard this guy that had graduated from Notre Dame talking on the radio about how ND needs to lower its entrance exam(GPA whatever) standards in order to get the black players. You can't win without the black players, sort of a back handed complement.

But seriously BuDDaH you gotta believe I am all about fair and equal rights. But I also believe that you should earn those promotions not let AA do it for you. That is alot of why white people don't always like the blacks because of things like AA. some black people get more then what they deserve at some places. But without it some would get no promations at all, so I can see the "need" for it. If white people would just treat everyone fairly we would not need AA but because of a few blacks that were not getting rightly promoted, you get alot that have not deserved it at all. It is a bitter circle. damned if you do damned if you don't.

Just one last thing, I am not a racist, if I don't like you, it would have nothing to do with your skin, but mearly your attitude.

That's s touchy subject I'll stay out of..

buddha, since you're obviously never gonna change your opinion (even the slightest) or even listen to me, i find it useless to argue with you, even if I am simply pointing out the obvious. I do have some thoughts though.

edit: that sounded worse than i wanted it to be after i read it. I meant it in the way that some stranger on the internet has no affect on your beliefs...which is really a good thing, and that me trying to affect them is pointless, so I'm just wasting space with these posts now. But i'm gonna keep on at it anyway :).

I agree if you can find the people who did it, they should be punished....but that's the thing. Anyone who did it is dead. You will not find anyone alive (at least i hope) who owned slaves. If a man kills your father and then dies, would you go after his son? I'd sure hope not. I agree that the government still owes the land and mule, but that's the government...that's not a shipping company.

I'm seriously gonna hafta see proof of how much advanced africa was. I mean they enslaved their own people. When were they going to decide to stop that and make everybody equal?

as for the resources, look what resources did to the middle east. Any place that actually has resources like that has not faired very well. The world is a cruel place.

I would really like to see if you can come up with anything on how advanced africa was. I've never heard anything about it, so I don't know...maybe you can change my mind.

I haven't made an opinion yet, don't you see.
Everything I have thrown in this thread has been backed by facts..

You haven't heard MY opinion yet...
:)

well I am still waiting on you to back up your "facts" on the college that will not let in blacks.

so what was the stuff you backed with facts? just words you decided to randomly type? Are you saying you actually go against all the facts you've been posting? and hows that info on how africa was advanced coming?

Buddah seems like a bit of a racist.

How the hell was Africa advanced back then? Did they have guns? Ships capable of navigating the globe? Half of the technology the Asians and Europeans had?

What you have been posting is unrelated to the topic.

Let me see, since I DO have to work and have a life and studied African AND American History, I don't know what I'm talking about and I might be a racist....
Hmm.....

"Supporters of reparations speak of the plunder and destruction of the African continent, and of slavery itself, where more than 250 years of uncompensated black labor helped build America. Slavery has contemporary psychic and physical victims, the argument runs, in black poverty, violence, and the existence of two separate and unequal societies. Underneath and behind these are black despair and hopelessness, the worst heritage of slavery and discrimation."

Let's flip the script a sec and point out and bring forward a question: Do you think America would be where it is WITHOUT Black Americans or slaves?


I think not, America had it good with the slaves and most of the "modern" technologies YOU use everyday have been discovered by Black scientists or based on techniques used in Africa... Just because I point it out makes me racist, too?

My race has never suppressed or enslaved any American.

You don't have to have naval power or guns to be advanced in this world. (The American Fleet back then BECAME the biggest in the world because of the slavery trade mind you...) You speak about how the slaves or Black Americans are having it good now, but you speak like you "know" a few thousand Black people and speak for them.

That shows me you don't know what you speak of. You don't know anything. How long have Blacks been over in America? Do you know? I do. Everything they have now has been hard-earned
and they still come up short. You think America GAVE it to them?

Do YOU know what the Emancipation Proclimation was all about?
You said slavery was a "small piece of the pie". When you said that, I laughed because you then showed you don't know anything.. The whole Civil War was about ending slavery. You only take what you want and then speak like you know it.
Here's a "refresher": Emancipation Proclamation

" Whereas on the 22nd day of September, A.D. 1862, a proclamation was issued by the President of the United States, containing, among other things, the following, to wit:

"That on the 1st day of January, A.D. 1863, all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free; and the executive
government of the United States, including the military and naval authority thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of such persons and will do no act or acts to repress such persons, or any of them, in any efforts they may make for their actual freedom.

"That the executive will on the 1st day of January aforesaid, by proclamation, designate the States and parts of States, if any, in which the people thereof, respectively, shall then be in rebellion against the United States; and the fact that any State or the people thereof shall on that day be in good faith represented in the Congress of the United States by members chosen thereto at elections wherein a majority of the qualified voters of such States shall have participated shall, in the absence of strong countervailing testimony, be deemed conclusive evidence that such State and the people thereof are not then in rebellion against the United States."

Now, therefore, I, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States, by virtue of the power in me vested as Commander-In-Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States in time of actual armed rebellion against the authority and government of the United States, and as a fit and necessary war measure for supressing said rebellion, do, on this 1st day of January, A.D. 1863, and in accordance with my purpose so to do, publicly proclaimed for the full period of one hundred days from the first day above mentioned, order and designate as the States and parts of States wherein the people thereof, respectively, are this day in rebellion against the United States the following, to wit:

Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana (except the parishes of St. Bernard, Palquemines, Jefferson, St. John, St. Charles, St. James, Ascension, Assumption, Terrebone, Lafourche, St. Mary, St. Martin, and Orleans, including the city of New Orleans), Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Virginia (except the forty-eight counties designated as West Virginia, and also the counties of Berkeley, Accomac, Morthhampton, Elizabeth City, York, Princess Anne, and Norfolk, including the cities of Norfolk and Portsmouth), and which excepted parts are for the present left precisely as if this proclamation were not issued.

And by virtue of the power and for the purpose aforesaid, I do order and declare that all persons held as slaves within said designated States and parts of States are, and henceforward shall be, free; and that the Executive Government of the United States, including the military and naval authorities thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of said persons.

And I hereby enjoin upon the people so declared to be free to abstain from all violence, unless in necessary self-defence; and I recommend to them that, in all case when allowed, they labor faithfully for reasonable wages.

And I further declare and make known that such persons of suitable condition will be received into the armed service of the United States to garrison forts, positions, stations, and other places, and to man vessels of all sorts in said service.

And upon this act, sincerely believed to be an act of justice, warranted by the Constitution upon military necessity, I invoke the considerate judgment of mankind and the gracious favor of Almighty God. "
(Let me see you dodge that..)

Want to see how many times this government made promises and failed to honor them to slaves? The government made laws to put an end to slavery and STILL these businesses forced FREED BLACKS into slavery?

http://www.toptags.com/aama/docs/docs.htm

(Check it out and look ESPECIALLY at the timeline before you open your mouth. It's all in there.)
I bet you'll only see what you want to and want to argue over bullshit points you want to make. Not before you acknowledge that this country fucked up big time.

You all are prolly afraid that Blacks have a legitimate claim.
Damn, that will cost the goverment BILLIONS.. Now you then know WHO will pay for it. (Taxpayers.)

Wow! All this time you have been paying for them to shoot $2 million missles at camels thousands of miles away, and you want to justify why you shouldn't honor a contract that the government made. Thats a no-brainer..

What was the year they knocked down segregation and why in
1973 they still had to use National Guardmen to ESCORT Blacks to school? You call that having it "good"?

Let me point out:

Everytime you turn the ignition key to your car,
everytime you ride and elevator or escalator, think about steam-driven trains and ships,
used gas-light, get a blood transfusion for your operation,
or use anything rubber or petrolium based...

Thank a Black American.

The Black Americans have been the "work-horse" for America.
And you think they are just looking for a hand-out? It's time America paid up on it's promise, too bad it didn't do it when it said it would.

When America needed to put that "Super-Race" notion to bed,
they relied on whom?

When they needed protection in the air to drop it's bombs during WW II, which air-escort group they tried to say are "inferior" but NOT ONCE lost a bomber it escorted to enemy planes? (Which still STANDS.)
You really don't want me to start "point-fucking" right now, so don't get me started..
Yeah, WHO should be grateful for WHOM and WHAT, dudes...?

I'll be atcha with that proof you want..
Bet on it..

hmm, okay buddha, i'll give it to you that blacks have contributed a lot in america, because they have (that certainly doesn't hurt my argument at all). They have invented a lot of usefull things that have made my life better. Let me flip it to you again....would they have invented them if slavery didn't happen? Would they have the knowledge, the education, the resources to do the great things they've done if slavery didn't happen? I'm not saying white people did a favor or anything, I'm simply pointing out (for the umpteenth time) that because of slavery many blacks have led much better lives than those still in africa.

you talk like we wish black people didn't exist or that we're ungrateful for anything they've done. I'm sorry to say this is not true. i'm sure you'd even be surprised to hear that i have black friends, or admire black teachers, or even find black women attractive. You say you are not a racist but you talk to us like we are.

1973 wasn't necessarily having it good (although i'd say a good percentage of blacks were in fact having it good)...I never said it was. I said today...as in the present....as in 2004. I see that you want to win this argument very badly, but i'm sorry, I honestly don't think you can convince me or anyone else that your life would be better off if slavery didn't happen and you lived in africa.
(I don't need to mention that you wouldn't even exist since some of your ancestors are native american)

as for this
that's true, but you fail to point out that your race has enslaved other africans. besides, I, along with all of my ancestors, never enslaved anybody period. Yet, because i'm white you seem to think i owe you something.

buddha, I really hate to say this, but you are contributing to the racism in america. I know you've never said "white man is the devil", but that is exactly what i get from half the stuff you've said in this thread. you say that blacks don't have it good in america. Well I know hundreds (probably even thousands, so yes i can say i speak for thousands) of black athletes that would say otherwise. Your attitude is why half of the racist people are racist. If you would just accept your life for what it is and stop being a victim nobody would have a problem. You say blacks have always gotten the short end of the stick in america...you must not know too much of irish history then. Go look that up and you'll see the definition of ALWAYS getting the short end of the stick. just for the record...i'm not irish, I just happen to know more than one culture's history. but of course it doesn't matter, you've been too worried about winning this whole debate to try to learn anything new.

No, I am saying you cannot say Black people are having it better then they would than if they where still in Africa because Slavery altered the course of what Africa could have been...

So, how can YOU come up with an answer and say that? As much as you can come up and answer American are having it good because of slavery..?
To let you know, I am not the one coming off with the racial attitude, look at your and a few other people's replies. You talk like if you know and I know you don't. I can say that.

Just because I point of flaws in theories because when speak like you have more sense than a Black person in such situations and try to over-ride me and tell me I am wrong and try to get me to admit or conform to YOUR ideals, I have to say no to compromise.
Here you are, definitely a Black person, now you going to try to make me compromise my position and tell me what to say...

WRONG. You guys can point all you want, you really didn't expect someone to come and try to kick the wheel of your bangwagon off. I'll fight you every step of the way and bring more than enough facts into a conversation than you. I am not the one that has to prove anything, regardless of what you say, I'll bang it to you. You can assume all the good that Blacks and slaves "could" be having now, Slavery was wrong, and it altered the natural course of what Africa could have been. You act like these inventions and discoveries wouldn't have been done but since they were, be glad they had the chance to be done..
It's that very same attitude that get me all heated up, so I'd be the FIRST to point out: AMERICA has it so good that Blacks are here and because of SLAVERY. Debate that. I have EVEN MORE ammunition than the latter conversation.

The U.S. has paid the Germans and Japanese for their suffering and for the atrocities down to them, Blacks have been having shit done to them even before the formation of the States, it can be proven. We can even leave noted that as the "culture or practice" of the time, let's count from the time the Constitution recognizes Slaves as Black Americans and count form there. I'll even square up with you until the Civil War, where it became an executive order where the promise of the government to end slavery and reparations of "40 acre and a mule"?
Now you are trying to tell me when I hear,

" If they're still pissed off about it, I would be more than happy to give my tax dollars to let them go back to africa. But if they enjoy their lives here in america then they need to STFU!! My ancestors had rough times too beyatch."

"sounds like greedy people trying to get some easy money to me." "These fucking people need to get a life. I hate saying this, but let's just get them a one-way ticket to Rowanda. I'm sure their heritage will take them far there."
"This is just a group who wants to be rich for nothing. I'd like to see their intentions for the money should they be awarded it. "

" If they want to sue, ship them back to wherever their ancestors came from and tell them they don't deserve what their ancestors got for them."

COME AGAIN?!?!?

WHOSE ANCESTORS need to TELL WHOM'S ancestors?!?!?

WHOM'S Ancestors should be thankful for WHAT?!?!

Mine saw:
being chained, hunted, lynched, swindled, dealt like cattle, cheated in almost every step of they way, discriminated, segregated, denied, steroetyped, etc..

The list is too long, so I won't bore you...

Back the fuck up, you done said the WRONG thing..

IT'S "ON", now "beyotch"...

I ain't letting that shit go on, you want to know what a Black person is thinking: here you go. I'll tell you what one thinks.

Can't take the fire, shouldn't have started one...

So... you want to have a discussion about Blacks and slavery without inviting a Black person to speak his mind..
(Mice will play while the cats away, huh? Guess what? I'm a cat. Squeak now, bitch..)

Ain't happening.

(As I'll say this ala Phredgreen...)

Bring it .......

once again buddha, you are talking to me like i'm a racist. you are making yourself out to be a victim which only hurts your argument more. did you even read my last post?

everything you just said is pointless and proves you don't even understand what I've said and what i'm still trying to say. All you do is spit out pointless facts that I already know (you're not the only person that knows african american history).

the fact that you are even going to argue this shows you're just desperate and refuse to admit that you were wrong. You say you know a lot about african history. I don't think you do...I think you know a lot about african american history (which you've shown countless times), but you don't seem to get the drift about africa.

Why would I debate that? It's absolutely true. I certainly think america is better because black people are here. It's better because of all the different people who are here.

when are you going to get the point that it's not about what happened to your ancestors because we already know what happened to your ancestors. It's about YOUR life and whether or not YOU deserve anything for the suffering your ancestors took. You have not suffered like your ancestors suffered. You have not faced the terrible things your ancestors faced. Your ancestors would thank God for the life you have now. Are you too blind to see that?

all i have to say to that is wow. never in my life would i have expected something like that from an administrator. i have lost all respect for you. i think you should lock this thread before you make yourself look worse.

I can just see you shaking your head and snapping your fingers. (sorry i guess thats racist huh?)

Slightly off topic, but regarding reparations by German companies, as reported in the National Post last month. (sorry no link)

5 billion dollars has been set forth for 6 million Jewish holocaust victim's families as well as for surviver's themselves.

150 million has been allocated for approximately 2 million non-Jewish holocaust victim's families as well as surviver's. Of that 150 million, approximately two thirds has been allocated to Jews in Russia leaving 50 million for non-Jews,mainly non-Jewish Poles.

Do I think that Blacks should receive reparation monies? Why not. If a second generation Jewish kid and his family has his or her life improved because of reparations, why not a descendant of the slave trade.