SCARY, very scary - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

munchen · 03-03-2005, 04:35 PM

From Fark
The US is developing a weapon designed to create the maximum amount of pain to its target. It plans to use this on PROTESTERS

http://www.guerrillanews.com/headlin..._New_US_Weapon

This scares the hell out of me. They plan to counter protesting by inflicting excruciating pain. I can't beleive they are researching this. This looks like actual real life evil to me.

Rdr4evr · 03-03-2005, 04:48 PM

hmm, you would think the methods used presently would be sufficient punishment (not that protestors deserve any) to those rioting or demonstrating, two completely different things that should be dealt with in different manners. A demonstration is peaceful, and I would see no justification to use excruciatingly painful weaponry on participants, where as riots are violent, and a weapon such as this can be useful (I personally don't agree with it as I believe contemporary methods are enough, but I can see why they would create such a thing). I'm not surprised in the least that humanity is yet on the verge of creating another weapon to inflict yet more pain, and I'm even less surprised that the US is behind it, like you said, this is simply evil.

samcol · 03-03-2005, 05:08 PM

Remember the last "non-lethal" weapon? The taser has killed over 80 people in the past few years, and it wasn't even that common on officers. Now, it's everyday in the paper that I hear a new police station is being armed with them.

There is not a single positive outcome that I can imagine the use of this will bring.

Karby · 03-03-2005, 05:28 PM

this is very sad...and very frightning.
honestly, i hope their research comes to a bust. either that, or someone involved having the guts to say "this isn't right."

shakran · 03-03-2005, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

Remember the last "non-lethal" weapon? The taser has killed over 80 people in the past few years, and it wasn't even that common on officers. Now, it's everyday in the paper that I hear a new police station is being armed with them.

There is not a single positive outcome that I can imagine the use of this will bring.

In the first place, until i see it on the wires I don't believe it.

In the second place, that 80 deaths statistic is BS. USA Today pulled that from an Arizona Republic article, only the Republic's article said 3 people were killed BY the taser, and were not ruled out three other times. The rest of the deaths occurred after the person was hit with th etaser, but were ruled to have other causes - drug overdoses, medical conditions, etc.

So now we have 3 deaths and 3 more possible deaths which for the sake of my argument I will put in the "killed by taser" column, to add up to 6.

That's 6 deaths after the 100,000 or so times per year that they're used by cops.

6/100,000.

That's not a very high kill ratio.

And what would you have them use as an alternative? Guns? They have a much higher kill ratio than 6 in every 100,000.

This mindless assault on tasers is insane. It's an attempt to give the cops a weapon to use that doesn't involve killing people. Why would you fight against that?

CrAzEd · 03-03-2005, 06:12 PM

Sort of freaky, especially considering non-lethal weapons can easily be lethal if used on the right person.

Fire · 03-03-2005, 07:09 PM

welcome to the future gentlemen- War is a violent act- remember that they could choose to use a mini gun on rioters- and rubber bullets kill a lot of people every year- would those who dont like this idea prefer the alternatives?

rainheart · 03-03-2005, 07:23 PM

I wonder if you can wear a suit that would shield you from it?

dksuddeth · 03-03-2005, 09:27 PM

If a democratic administration ever uses this, you'll hear the conservatives scream tyranny.

k925 · 03-03-2005, 11:23 PM

I read about something like this in a Popular Science magazine several months ago. The DoD was supposedly looking into a kind of "pain ray" that could temporarily immobilize people. One of the companies involved was developing a ray that would cause your skin to feel like it was on fire but left no permanant damage.

I don't remember reading that such a weapon would be used on protesters. It would, however, certainly make someone think twice about throwing that molotov cocktail if there was a mega-pain ray aimed at him or her, wouldn't it?

On the battlefield, it wouldn't make much sense, as the victims of the ray would live to fight and kill you tomorrow (unless the good guys could somehow enter the ray and take the enemies prisoner while they were twitching around on the ground).

The way the govt. operates with all its secrets, what we hear about things like this usually ends up being a small fraction of what is actually going on. There's a lot more to this story somewhere, but we won't likely hear it for several years.

retsuki03 · 03-03-2005, 11:44 PM

I am not scared or worried.

But wonder if this will help the gun lobby. Everyone afraid of the government = everyone wants a gun.

jorgelito · 03-04-2005, 12:33 AM

Or, don't participate in riots.

As for protests, that is kind of messed up. What's wrong with what they have now? (Water cannon, tear gas etc)

Xell101 · 03-04-2005, 01:10 PM

1) What article did you find the mention of this being used on protestors within?
2) I don't understand the objections to this. It serves the function of non-lethally taking folks down with a lessened probability of death or physical harm.

Quote:

If a democratic administration ever uses this, you'll hear the conservatives scream tyranny.

Why?

Quote:

What's wrong with what they have now?

If you're willing to settle for them, then nothing. If you like improvement, then what's wrong is that they're substantially inferior to what can be had, to this pain inducing ray weapon.

Quote:

There is not a single positive outcome that I can imagine the use of this will bring.

I don't get it.

munchen · 03-04-2005, 01:42 PM

Quote:

1) What article did you find the mention of this being used on protestors within?

here

Quote:

The weapon is being designed with rioters/demonstrators in mind, and seems to be the logical extension of the mentality that relegates all public expressions of dissent to free-speech cages.

Quote:

I don't understand the objections to this. It serves the function of non-lethally taking folks down with a lessened probability of death or physical harm.

Its not so much that they are trying to reduce physical harm and death, its how they are doing it. They are reaserching ways to induce blinding, excruciating pain on people. That is absolutly disgusting. This weapon in itself is a form of torture, by the sounds of it they want it to be very effective torture. They shouldn't even be considering this, this is a disgusting thing to even think about inflicting people with. they should be looking into other ways to subdue people. This is flat out evil.

dksuddeth · 03-04-2005, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xell101

Quote:

Originally Posted by DKSuddeth

If a democratic administration ever uses this, you'll hear the conservatives scream tyranny.

Why?

thats rhetorical, right?

Ripsaw · 03-04-2005, 01:50 PM

Certain types of demonstrators believe that economic disruption is the only way to have their voice heard. This can involve rioting, "peaceful non-violent" sit-ins, chaining themselves to trees, blocking traffic, etc. This way of thinking has an impact on innocent and guilty parties alike. They get their message across, they get their publicity, but they also interfere with the lives of people who have nothing to do with their cause or their protest. They won't use this thing on picket lines at the PTA meeting down at the school. There is no reason to.

When you touch a hot pan on the stove, it creates pain, and should teach you not to do it again. I find pain to be a very good deterrent for the stupid things I try to do. I do it, it hurts, and then I don't do it again.

How not to get hit by the pain ray? Don't throw rocks at police.
And yes, I'm not jaded enough to think that innocent people won't be hit by this thing. Omelette, meet the eggs.

dksuddeth · 03-04-2005, 02:32 PM

of course protesters and dissenters are going to try to hurt economic interests. Thats how getting your message across works. Lets not forget that those with money run this country. By standing off in a little boxed area with a sign, you're not doing anything but taking up space. Of course, thats what ANY government in power will want, just set aside and feel good about your 'protest'.

munchen · 03-04-2005, 03:27 PM

Quote:

When you touch a hot pan on the stove, it creates pain, and should teach you not to do it again. I find pain to be a very good deterrent for the stupid things I try to do. I do it, it hurts, and then I don't do it again.

First of all, if you touch a hot pan on a stove it hurts, you get a burn, it does not cause absolute incredible pain. Its also something you do to yourself, not pain inflicted on you by a govrnment officer.
Second, The message is disagree with the government and you will feel PAIN, PAIN like you've never felt before.

Lebell · 03-04-2005, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by munchen

From Fark
It plans to use this on PROTESTERS

Correction.

They plan to use this on rioters not protestors.

Big difference.

Or would it be better just to shoot them or club them?

Manuel Hong · 03-04-2005, 04:58 PM

Recently (post 9/11), most large protests have been cordoned off into so-called "protest cages" while the police presence seems much more omni-present. Anger over recent events (the first election of W, the war, enviromental concerns...) has escalated. I think cramming angry people who want to have peaceful demonstrations into out-of-the way locations makes them feel that their voices are not being heard and that the government thinks their opinions are of no value. Anger supressed becomes angrier. There are always a few that reach their boiling point and do something stupid, like throw rocks or worse at the police. Protests can become riots this way, things escalate and innocent protesters get hurt too. The threat of more force only serves to highten aggression. The plasma ray looks pretty bad compared to the isolated use of force against specific aggressors.

What concerns me more though is the description in the article about making this weapon cause the maximum amount of pain possible. (who said it burns the flesh?) Could this be just a bit excessive for protests and riots?

I like K925's idea of using it in combat. What a much more civilized idea for war. Stun the enemy troops, swoop in while they're unconcious and put them in detetion camps until peace is declaired. Well, it's a nice fantasy.

Lockjaw · 03-04-2005, 09:31 PM

Quote:

I like K925's idea of using it in combat. What a much more civilized idea for war. Stun the enemy troops, swoop in while they're unconcious and put them in detetion camps until peace is declaired. Well, it's a nice fantasy.

Nah you immobilize them THEN shoot them.

Anyway this might be used but it likely will only be used in an escalating situation that has already gone bad. Just like they don't immediately taser a person protesting neither will they immediately turn on the pain ray on people who aren't getting violent.
It usually will go...
Police order a dispersement. If that's ignored. A repeat order will be given. That's ignored tear gas. That still doesn't do it. Water cannons. That still doesn't do it. Send in the riot squad to thump some skulls. The only thing THIS is going to do it put another step inbetween a being asked or coerced into disbursing or stop rioting and the inevitable skull thumping. I don't know about you guys I'd rather have a few moments of blinding pain than a fractured bone because the cops got a little free and loose with their nightsticks. But if you folks are cool with cops wading into people bashing them and causing lasting pain and injury I suppose we could just go back to the good old days of attack dogs.

Painted · 03-04-2005, 11:56 PM

Great, just what I need. To have some 40something jerkoff pig shooting intense pain at me from a mile away while I happen to be angrily protesting during a riot.

Okay, so what happens when one of these weapons falls into the wrong hands? Not that pigs have the right hands, but what if some guy broke into a pigmobile and stole one of these?

flat5 · 03-05-2005, 04:29 AM

A cop may think twice before using a lethal weapon.
A cop may think once before using this one.
I hate the idea of a pain weapon.
A nerve weapon to stop you from moving would be more acceptable to me.

KungFuGuy · 03-05-2005, 02:31 PM

I'm finding it hard to believe that this kind of technology is bad.

They said its being designed to inflict pain without injury. Its probably an ethical way to deal with violent and destructive protestors. (although this kind of thing would probably make a revolution impossible).

They say that they're worried it might be used for torture. It's probably a really valid argument, but this type of thing that doesn't cause injury would probably be better than methods of torture today, like just beating a person to within an inch of life.

i agree with manual on the issue of protest cages.

Personally i'm wondering what happened to that "goo gun" they were developing. It was supposed to immobilize a person by making it to hard to move with like a sticky goo.

just keep in mind that in most cases, conflict is the mother of invention, and war is a conflict. i dont want to sound sexist, so you could use father too.

03-09-2005, 01:43 PM

And this is to use on your own people ?

Dont disagree with your government , always do as they tell you , do not think for yourself .

The gap between living in a 'free' society and the so called repressed ones is closing real fast.

ScottKuma · 03-09-2005, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manuel Hong

Recently (post 9/11), most large protests have been cordoned off into so-called "protest cages"

Before I start into this, I want to say that I also disagree vehemently with the so-called "Protest-Zones." They are an egregious violation of our first amendment rights to peaceably assemble & protest.

But these zones are NOT exclusively a post-9/11 thing, and not exclusively a George Bush/Republican thing.

http://www.commondreams.org/views/081600-105.htm

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/allpo.../protests.html

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/chld02.shtml

http://www.vh1.com/artists/news/1436...000/cher.jhtml

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=11796
(note the quote: "Elend encountered his first zones at the 2000 Democratic Convention in Los Angeles.")

And I'm also worried about this new type of "non-lethal" technology being used against the citizenry. Look at the recent death due to Pepper-Balls after the Boston Red Sox won the ALCS against the Yankees. The girl that was killed was a bystander, not in the fracas. She shouldn't have BEEN there, but what happens if the mob finds YOU?

One thing I really want to know about the weapon portrayed in the article is: can it be spread over a wide group? If so, I'm VERY scared.

mo42 · 03-09-2005, 02:34 PM

Look, what do you want the cops to do when rioters start smashing up store fronts and ripping things apart? Use guns to kill em all? Use tear gas, which likely allows people to escape? This can probably be used to immobilize somebody with pain (plenty of things used by cops already cause plenty of pain, like tear gas, so that's nothing new) so wrongdoers can be arrested. I view it like an upgrade to the taser.

Am I worried about it being used in torture? I'm sure it'd be good at it, but I think that American society has not slid far enough to use torture to interrogate its own citizens.

But really, it seems to me that this is just a more effective taser. And I'd prefer if people didn't die when it can be avoided.

Lak · 03-09-2005, 11:38 PM

This thing looks cool - its a controllable, effective, injury-less deterrant. I say, its a good fucking idea.
Beats the hell out of... er, "beating the hell out of" rioters, don't you think?

03-03-2005, 04:35 PM	#1 (permalink)
munchen Crazy Location: Sudbury, Ontario	SCARY, very scary From Fark The US is developing a weapon designed to create the maximum amount of pain to its target. It plans to use this on PROTESTERS http://www.guerrillanews.com/headlin..._New_US_Weapon This scares the hell out of me. They plan to counter protesting by inflicting excruciating pain. I can't beleive they are researching this. This looks like actual real life evil to me. __________________ "Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun" -Matt Groening

03-03-2005, 05:28 PM	#4 (permalink)
Karby Psycho Location: somewhere	this is very sad...and very frightning. honestly, i hope their research comes to a bust. either that, or someone involved having the guts to say "this isn't right." __________________ ~my karma ran over my dogma.~

03-03-2005, 07:09 PM	#7 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	welcome to the future gentlemen- War is a violent act- remember that they could choose to use a mini gun on rioters- and rubber bullets kill a lot of people every year- would those who dont like this idea prefer the alternatives? __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

03-03-2005, 09:27 PM	#9 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	If a democratic administration ever uses this, you'll hear the conservatives scream tyranny. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

03-03-2005, 11:23 PM	#10 (permalink)
k925 Tilted Location: Inside an econobox	I read about something like this in a Popular Science magazine several months ago. The DoD was supposedly looking into a kind of "pain ray" that could temporarily immobilize people. One of the companies involved was developing a ray that would cause your skin to feel like it was on fire but left no permanant damage. I don't remember reading that such a weapon would be used on protesters. It would, however, certainly make someone think twice about throwing that molotov cocktail if there was a mega-pain ray aimed at him or her, wouldn't it? On the battlefield, it wouldn't make much sense, as the victims of the ray would live to fight and kill you tomorrow (unless the good guys could somehow enter the ray and take the enemies prisoner while they were twitching around on the ground). The way the govt. operates with all its secrets, what we hear about things like this usually ends up being a small fraction of what is actually going on. There's a lot more to this story somewhere, but we won't likely hear it for several years. __________________ I can has furburger?

03-03-2005, 04:48 PM	#2 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	hmm, you would think the methods used presently would be sufficient punishment (not that protestors deserve any) to those rioting or demonstrating, two completely different things that should be dealt with in different manners. A demonstration is peaceful, and I would see no justification to use excruciatingly painful weaponry on participants, where as riots are violent, and a weapon such as this can be useful (I personally don't agree with it as I believe contemporary methods are enough, but I can see why they would create such a thing). I'm not surprised in the least that humanity is yet on the verge of creating another weapon to inflict yet more pain, and I'm even less surprised that the US is behind it, like you said, this is simply evil.

03-03-2005, 05:08 PM	#3 (permalink)
samcol Junkie Location: Indiana	Remember the last "non-lethal" weapon? The taser has killed over 80 people in the past few years, and it wasn't even that common on officers. Now, it's everyday in the paper that I hear a new police station is being armed with them. There is not a single positive outcome that I can imagine the use of this will bring.

03-03-2005, 06:12 PM	#6 (permalink)
CrAzEd Upright	Sort of freaky, especially considering non-lethal weapons can easily be lethal if used on the right person.

03-03-2005, 07:23 PM	#8 (permalink)
rainheart Psycho	I wonder if you can wear a suit that would shield you from it?

03-03-2005, 11:44 PM	#11 (permalink)
retsuki03 Crazy Location: Austin, TX	I am not scared or worried. But wonder if this will help the gun lobby. Everyone afraid of the government = everyone wants a gun.

03-04-2005, 12:33 AM	#12 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Or, don't participate in riots. As for protests, that is kind of messed up. What's wrong with what they have now? (Water cannon, tear gas etc)

03-04-2005, 01:50 PM	#16 (permalink)
Ripsaw Chef in Training	Certain types of demonstrators believe that economic disruption is the only way to have their voice heard. This can involve rioting, "peaceful non-violent" sit-ins, chaining themselves to trees, blocking traffic, etc. This way of thinking has an impact on innocent and guilty parties alike. They get their message across, they get their publicity, but they also interfere with the lives of people who have nothing to do with their cause or their protest. They won't use this thing on picket lines at the PTA meeting down at the school. There is no reason to. When you touch a hot pan on the stove, it creates pain, and should teach you not to do it again. I find pain to be a very good deterrent for the stupid things I try to do. I do it, it hurts, and then I don't do it again. How not to get hit by the pain ray? Don't throw rocks at police. And yes, I'm not jaded enough to think that innocent people won't be hit by this thing. Omelette, meet the eggs. __________________ "We are supposed to be masters of space, but we cant even line up our shoes?" One life, one chance, one opportunity.

03-04-2005, 02:32 PM	#17 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	of course protesters and dissenters are going to try to hurt economic interests. Thats how getting your message across works. Lets not forget that those with money run this country. By standing off in a little boxed area with a sign, you're not doing anything but taking up space. Of course, thats what ANY government in power will want, just set aside and feel good about your 'protest'. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

03-04-2005, 04:58 PM	#20 (permalink)
Manuel Hong Addict Location: Land of the puny, wimpy states	Recently (post 9/11), most large protests have been cordoned off into so-called "protest cages" while the police presence seems much more omni-present. Anger over recent events (the first election of W, the war, enviromental concerns...) has escalated. I think cramming angry people who want to have peaceful demonstrations into out-of-the way locations makes them feel that their voices are not being heard and that the government thinks their opinions are of no value. Anger supressed becomes angrier. There are always a few that reach their boiling point and do something stupid, like throw rocks or worse at the police. Protests can become riots this way, things escalate and innocent protesters get hurt too. The threat of more force only serves to highten aggression. The plasma ray looks pretty bad compared to the isolated use of force against specific aggressors. What concerns me more though is the description in the article about making this weapon cause the maximum amount of pain possible. (who said it burns the flesh?) Could this be just a bit excessive for protests and riots? I like K925's idea of using it in combat. What a much more civilized idea for war. Stun the enemy troops, swoop in while they're unconcious and put them in detetion camps until peace is declaired. Well, it's a nice fantasy. __________________ Believe nothing, even if I tell it to you, unless it meets with your own good common sense and experience. - Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha)

03-04-2005, 11:56 PM	#22 (permalink)
Painted Pleasure Burn	Great, just what I need. To have some 40something jerkoff pig shooting intense pain at me from a mile away while I happen to be angrily protesting during a riot. Okay, so what happens when one of these weapons falls into the wrong hands? Not that pigs have the right hands, but what if some guy broke into a pigmobile and stole one of these? __________________ I came across a nice rack at the department store

03-05-2005, 04:29 AM	#23 (permalink)
flat5 Very Insignificant Pawn Location: Amsterdam, NL	A cop may think twice before using a lethal weapon. A cop may think once before using this one. I hate the idea of a pain weapon. A nerve weapon to stop you from moving would be more acceptable to me.

03-05-2005, 02:31 PM	#24 (permalink)
KungFuGuy Insane	I'm finding it hard to believe that this kind of technology is bad. They said its being designed to inflict pain without injury. Its probably an ethical way to deal with violent and destructive protestors. (although this kind of thing would probably make a revolution impossible). They say that they're worried it might be used for torture. It's probably a really valid argument, but this type of thing that doesn't cause injury would probably be better than methods of torture today, like just beating a person to within an inch of life. i agree with manual on the issue of protest cages. Personally i'm wondering what happened to that "goo gun" they were developing. It was supposed to immobilize a person by making it to hard to move with like a sticky goo. just keep in mind that in most cases, conflict is the mother of invention, and war is a conflict. i dont want to sound sexist, so you could use father too.

03-09-2005, 01:43 PM	#25 (permalink)
Lin Guest	And this is to use on your own people ? Dont disagree with your government , always do as they tell you , do not think for yourself . The gap between living in a 'free' society and the so called repressed ones is closing real fast.

03-09-2005, 02:34 PM	#27 (permalink)
mo42 Insane Location: California	Look, what do you want the cops to do when rioters start smashing up store fronts and ripping things apart? Use guns to kill em all? Use tear gas, which likely allows people to escape? This can probably be used to immobilize somebody with pain (plenty of things used by cops already cause plenty of pain, like tear gas, so that's nothing new) so wrongdoers can be arrested. I view it like an upgrade to the taser. Am I worried about it being used in torture? I'm sure it'd be good at it, but I think that American society has not slid far enough to use torture to interrogate its own citizens. But really, it seems to me that this is just a more effective taser. And I'd prefer if people didn't die when it can be avoided. __________________ It's not getting what you want, it's wanting what you've got.

03-09-2005, 11:38 PM	#28 (permalink)
Lak Insane Location: New Zealand	This thing looks cool - its a controllable, effective, injury-less deterrant. I say, its a good fucking idea. Beats the hell out of... er, "beating the hell out of" rioters, don't you think? __________________ ignorance really is bliss.