MSD

5'10" and 240 will disqualify you.

I don't know if it has changed, but it used to be that if you're over 6'2" you're too tall to fly for the USAF.

Lebell

Hmmm,

- Likes benefits of America enough to become an American Citizen.
- Not willing to defend those benefits
- Willing to let others die to defend the benefits he enjoys.

I think I better not post as well.

edit to say: Except I will say that I really wish you would reconsider about becoming a citizen and move to one of those countries you mentioned that you think is better.

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slvrnblck

On a side note, I dont think it makes you a coward if you dont want to go to war. I personally think war in general no matter what the reason is wrong. I think killing is wrong too, but this isnt really your question so i wont get into it.

Can you be drafted if you are not an american citizen?

ChrisJericho

Back in Vietnam one of my uncles volunteered to be a sonar technician on a submarine instead of the general draft. Well..... he's alive.....

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User Name

While I am fairly likely to ditch in case of a draft, I don't think that's the only factor that defines a good citizen. I will pay taxes, not collect welfare, obey laws etc. like I do now.

Dying in a war doesn't necessarily defend those benefits. Sometimes, a war is simply an offensive action that has little to no benefits for the general populace.

You seem to have a romanticised view of those who participate in wars based on the "defenders of benefits" statement. Sorry to thread-jack a thread that I started, but most people who volunteer to serve in the military simply do so because of lack of other opportunity, not because of a desire to fight for this country. The military is one of the only, if not the only, field where a person with only a high school diploma can advance up the ladder and get paid a decent salary. I really hate how these people get portrayed as oh-so-heroic fighters of our freeedom.

People who volunteer for duty while having other GOOD opportunities: HEROS.

People who join the military because they need a career and have nowhere else to go: ORDINARY PEOPLE with a dangerous job.

Lebell

You are not being a "good" citizen, you are being an average citizen and I would guess you are obeying the laws so you don't go to jail.

That is true. But many times it does. In the extraordinary event that the draft is reinstated, it is much more likely that it will be a case of the Korean war, WW2 or WW1 and not another Viet Nam, which btw, I would argue it was necessary to fight.


I am fairly willing to bet that I know many many MANY more military people than you and my strongest words cannot express how ignorant I think your statement is.

First off, I'm not "romanticising" anything. In America, there are almost always alternatives to joining the service, while only the most naive think that there is no possibility of them ever going to war.

Still, the service is like any other occupation in that there are really good service people while there are some real jerks out there. (I have it on very good authority for example, that General Westmoreland was a real prick.)

But to claim that those who join the service because they want an oportunity to better themselves are not "Heros" is simplistic.

A "hero" in my book, is someone who is willing to put their life on the line for a higher principle, whether that be to rescue a child from a burning building, or to serve in the armed forces, not knowing when they might be called to make the ultimate sacrifice for their country.

I've known many heros.

Anyone who would run away when their country needs them is a coward and doesn't deserve the benefits of that society. That includes soldiers who join up and then refuse to fight when called to do so and it includes those who would dodge the draft.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Cynthetiq

in answer to your latest post:

I wanted to FIGHT for my country. Not just serve, but FIGHT. Part of that is being trained and ready to go into action while YOU may not think it important or such, plenty of others do as well.

and with the fact that the military PICKS AND CHOOSES not just ANY bloke can joing the military. Just having a HS diploma has similary limitations in the military just like it does in the private sector.

IMHO I think that everyone should serve in order to get their "citizenship" papers like Israelis, and other countries. I know that those that have served have a much deeper appreciation of their homeland than those that never did anything.

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Zander

The Marines. They kill everything so there's noone left to kill you.

CrazySaturn

How about benefits to other populace around the world? Oh wait, we should just be isolationist and do not a damn thing except send food and money to other countries when they ask for it.
As for your ordinary people statement, it's just plain wrong. Ordinary people don't put their lives on the line to help other people.

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Crack

I am an ordinary person, (Regular old computer hardware fix-it guy in the USAF) with an ordinary job, I have done nothing dangerous, and I have never put my life on the line, (except maybe it felt like it in Basic, but that's becides the point...) so according to you, I am just a regular joe with a job like anyone elses except that If I had other options before joining, THEN I am a hero? Or am I missing the point here?

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irateplatypus

wrong. your conclusions aren't false because my opinion says differently, but because they aren't based in reality. i'm guessing your wrote this out of your perception of the military, not anything based on experience or fact.

most service men and women get paid less than they would for equivalent jobs in the private sector, all the while they face long deployments away from home and the reality of possible combat. as a general rule, those in the military are drug-free, clean cut, discliplined and skilled.

while it may not be seen from your ivory tower, there are plenty of honorable professions that do not require a college degree to succeed in. even so, the average military member is better educated than a cross-section of the general population with the same demographics.

it's a cliche, but it is those people you just mocked that allow you to go through your life in blissful ignorance.

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User Name

I guess I should say "those in the military who are serving in combat positions".

Heros: those who join the military (combat positions and other dangerous ones) despite having good grades and opportunities for college etc.

Ordinary military people: people who join the military out of necessity (they just barely graduated high school, don't wan't or can't go to college, etc)

By the way, why did you join the military?

Crack

I joined the military because it felt like the thing to do. Believe me here, I could have went to college, I could have done a lot of things, but I didn't know what I wanted to do. I needed somebody to tell me; "Hey, go kill that guy over there!" or "Hey, go fix that computer!" I cannot pretend to be all high and mighty and say that is was because I wanted to serve my country, and protect your freedoms from some of the evils in the world that wants to oppress those who cannot or will not defend themselves. But that is why I joined, that is not why I am in now. Why does it matter why someone joined, are the people who joined because of necessity but conduct themselves with honor and courage any less of a hero than those who had the choice to "opt out" but decided to join anyways.
I proudly serve my country, and would go anywhere anytime I am asked, which could include any war zone or hostile area the Air Force sees fit, but because I am not there now, or have never been makes me less honorable than my buddy sharing the fox hole with me who had the full ride scholarship to Notre Dame?
The most heroic people in the military I have ever met have been sitting behind a desk proudly doing their job with honesty and intergerty for 20+ years, and never complained when sent away from their familes for 6 months at a time to ensure someone at a base in an "undisclosed location" could e-mail his family when he wasen't out flying a jet protecting people he never knew or even wanted to know. Is the Shop Clerk or the Computer maintence tech, or the Cook any less of a hero because the military chose to put them in a support position instead of front-line duty. I get so fed up with people who after finding out that I fix computers, and manage a base network in the Airforce, instead of "Flying Jets" think that makes me "less military" than people who's job it is to activly search out and kill, or protect, or recon. Trust me, I have enabled more missions to succeed than any one person with a gun, smeared with camo paint could ever have done.

Why did I join the military?
I seriously don't know looking back on it, but I wouldn't have changed anything.

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Seaver

QUOTE]Ordinary military people: people who join the military out of necessity (they just barely graduated high school, don't wan't or can't go to college, etc)[/QUOTE]

Another misconception. You can not go into the US military with C average in High School. Guess what, it's easier to get into a community college than into the military. And officer positions are very difficult.

I'm in the NROTC at the moment, I got very good grades in High School, and even got $120,000 in total scholarships from the various schools I applied to. I instead did not accept any of these when getting the ROTC scholarship (which ended up costing me a couple thousand dollars each year). Yes, I am from a poor background, my father was military and they DO NOT pay well. Could you please explain though, even though I gave up lots of money going the military way how I am anymore heroic than those men who enlisted after High School in order to better themselves?

The people that join the military are not mercenaries, they are not people who couldnt find any better opportunities. They are simply men and women who chose to join something bigger than themselves, and put intangibles such as patriotism/freedom ahead of them.

As I said above I have no problem with you being a coward. At least you're honest. But gross misconseptions about the military, and your admittance of running away... well... I'm going to hold my tounge.

BenChuy

I think the war bashers and the pro-service people are all missing the point. If the cause is real, even just, i would happily go. but i would never accept being thrown into a "conflict" that is about making sure that OPEC stays with the petrodoller and not switch to the petroeuro.
I like living my life. If it gets worse with the destruction of my constitutional/ human rights, then i am getting out of here. My country is worth fighting for, but that bitch Bush is running my country. His war is not a war for America (which is where this whole thing is sprung from).

Furthermore, in my research into the history of Biomedical ethics atrocities, i came across far too many documents which cited horrible things that the forces have done to its own. With a transparent and humane manner of treating its people, along with medical testing, things like using mustard gas on JW conscientious objectors will never happen again.

Excessive secrecy breeds corruption, every time.

etla

Safe ways to avoid having to serve when drafted: Openly gay; Studing to become a priest, rabbi, minister; son of high ranking official(president, governer, that kind of thing).

Or emigrate to Canada. We won't extridite you because we have no selective service here.

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