*Nikki*

I don't think this is about Marines.

This is about alcohol and violence. Let's put blame where blame is due.

People commit murder their career is irrelevant.

Plan9Senior

Hmmm I might have to disagree with this. I think it is relevant due to the fact that their career's sole purpose is to turn them into killing machines.

cchris

FOLLOW UP


It would appear that attempted murder is now an offence whereby one can get bail in this Country and my view has certainly changed from earlier posts.

There is definately more to this than meets the eye but I am wondering why the national media has not picked this story up.

LINK

http://townsvillebulletin.news.com.a...E14787,00.html
........................................................................................................
Accused Marines allowed bail
By SHEREE LINEHAM
07feb04
TWO United States marines charged over an incident at a Townsville nightclub were granted bail in the Supreme Court yesterday.

It was the marines' second bail attempt -- they were denied bail when they appeared in the Townsville Magistrates Court on Thursday.

Lance Corporal Craig Mathew Meeks, 21, is charged with attempted murder while Staff Sergeant Beryl Wilson Jr, 33, is charged with assault following the weekend incident at Flinders St East nightclub Bullwinkles.

Police allege a 23-year-old university student was struck with a bottle and stabbed in the neck with a knife in the incident.

Justice Kerry Cullinane granted the pair bail on condition they stay at Garbutt RAAF base and observe a 10pm-6am curfew.

The judge also imposed an additional condition that they report three times a week to Townsville police station.

He questioned the defence about passports but barrister Greg Lynham said that under a training agreement the marines were part of they did not have any.

The only way they could obtain passports was through the US Embassy.

Mr Lynham said the marines would reside at the RAAF base.

In the meantime he would try to get the US Government to give an undertaking that if taken home the pair would be returned to Australia for court appearances.

This undertaking would have to be in writing and consent from the Director of Public Prosections must be given before the two could leave Australia.

The marines are serving with a US fighter squadron visiting Townsville.

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:::OshnSoul:::

I would like to apologize for the way I put what I said. I wasn't trying to assume anything, I should have added ".....if you consider this a Marine issue, than a violent or drunk (or both) issue." But that is besides the point. Sorry I came off as assuming you- I was so tired yesterday, I realized I was not posting, let alone thinking straight.

I agree. Although, being Marines, it is obviously not their duty or representation to hurt unless duties called upon in a war, fighting to defend their country. It was a useless act that they commited, fortunately the victim survived and now the 2 Marines will reap their consequences.

high_way

we have them calling into port a lot here in townsville and this is the first time something like this has happened. we get between 4-6 ships a year in for various amounts of time.

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Leviathan[NCV]

I fail to see how this could possibly 'attempted' murder.

If they wanted to kill him, it would have been quick and he'd be dead.


I'd like to know exactly what the student did to cause this.

:::OshnSoul:::

The city of Townsville:
Hey, where were the Powerpuff Girls when this happened? Ddn't they get the Power Signal or the phone call from the Mayor?

Confederate

yea they are trained killers, plain and simple, i was army for 2 years and they brainwash you, the marines are worse, I bet they didn't even have to think about attacking that guy, it's like flipping a switch for them

bundy

ummm, mate, this ISN'T America.
having the knife IS shocking.
why the hell was a foreign soldier, getting around during recreation time, ARMED in Australia (a close ally)??

people do not get around in this country with weapons. its illegal. and seen as rather pathetic.

sure, the marine may have grabbed the kitchen knife from over the bar, but thats not how it seems from the two articles.

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Cycler

We wern't there and the thing is they were all probably being assholes and bam soeone got hurt. Blame all around. Some one always gets hurt unfortuneately.

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sailor

Possibly. But consider this--the best people I have ever met, every single one of them, served in the military. And they certainly arent going around killing people.

The military trains people to kill when necessary, not just for the hell of it. This isnt a fault of their occupation, its a fault of themselves. The Marines may have made them more efficient at it, but I suspect they would have attacked that man regardless of what they did for a living.

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ace81385

YA this story doesnt seem to tell the whole story. I mean first Off there must be more to this than 2 marines killing some college student im highly doubting they would try to kill this guy over some arguement, but hey i could be wrong. All im saying is i would like some more info. Anyways idk 23 stiches thats nothing my friend got hit in head with bottle and got 52 and if itsbad they use STaples not stiches. but anyways what they did was wrong regardless but once again id like to hear more about this story

rat

please read the responces AND preferrably the article involved before replying. much of what you said is way off, and has been addressed previously in this thread.

As far as "killing machines," no, that's not what they're trained to do. They may _receive_ training in the area of firearms and unarmed combat, but their training emphasizes forethought and judgement. Enlisted men are trained to follow orders, however, senior enlisted, especially NCOs are expected to exercise judgement prior to action. Their job description not only involves active leadership of lower-ranked enlisted, but to be sounding boards for the young officers that lead platoons and to a lesser extent companies. Anyone that holds to the killing machine mentality must be having flashbacks of conscript soldiers from the Vietnam era who went through very little training and have minimal exposure to professional soldiers. Yes, killing, the will to kill, and the ability to execute that fact are part of the training, but that is far from "what they are trained to do." It is oversimplifying something that is an intensely complex process.

Additionally, as enlisted members of an air wing detachment visiting the town, odds are their primary jobs are either administrative, technical/mechanical or as crew on helicopters. Regardless of the "Every Marine is a Rifelman" mantra, these men are not regular direct combat troops. They have their BS training, maybe some advanced stuff for the NCO since he had to go through the Marine equivalent of Army BNOC (don't know the proper Marine designation offhand)--or Basic Non-Comissioned Officers Course. Outside of that, their primary tasks more than likely DO NOT involve firing a rifle or tossing grenades--or fighting with knives.

Strictly speaking, this looks like another barfight gone bad. Hell, when Americans have been known to murder their relatives over the dinner table (ie, a turkey leg or chicken wing) because they do not exercise forethought or judgement, why is it that anyone is surprised when two Americans escalate a barfight out of proportion? Is anyone surprised that a Marine might happen to be carrying a knife--one that odds are is a Ka-Bar equivalent, standard issue knife or simply a personal keepsake/favorite? Hell, any military in the world will train you to rely on your weapons, to keep them in working order, and keep them always at the ready. Wondering why he's carrying the knife? Because there's always the chance he would be on the receiving end of a barfight escalation or similar circumstances--especially outside his own country. He's been taught since the first day of Basic School that his weapon is his lifeline. Going unarmed for him is the equivalent of you walking around without trousers and underwear. Being without a service sidearm is one thing, but expecting him not to carry any weapon is naive at best--and unintelligent at worst.

None of the above is meant to mitigate the end result of the issue at hand--that a university student was attacked and stabbed in the neck by two American Marines. Rather, it is simply there to possibly help clear up some misconceptions and dispel certain hintings here regarding the circumstantial evidence (ie, knife posession) at hand.


Three men were drunk. At least two of them traded words. One got hurt. Sound like any barfights you've ever heard of? Only thing out of the ordinary was that it was two uniformed servicemen in a foreign port of call. That fact doesn't make them immune to the effects of alcohol, the lack of inhibition that is involved with alcohol consumption, nor to the stress of a foreign cruise. They go to a bar to blow off steam, an argument breaks out, a fight happens, and one man takes it way too far. It's happened countless times in other places, with other troops, in other countries. Sometimes the soldiers are on the giving end, sometimes they're on the receiving end. Just depends on the date/location and people involved. Pathetic and sickening to say the least, but surprising not in the slightest.

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Plan9Senior

Actually, the Marines train soldiers to kill without hesitation.

high_way

hahaha, when we found out about that, there was a big thing in the paper. silly i know, but it was a big shock to everybody.

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onetime2

Ummm no. Perhaps in the movies but not in real life.

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sailor

Correct, onetime.

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Seaver

I take it you never served in the military.. or knew people who have.

In my 2.5 years I've spent more time building houses for the poor nearby the base than I have in firing ranges or required self-defense courses.

sailor

Exactly. So many people dont seem to get this. Like I said, the best people I have ever had the privelege of knowing served in the military. A close family friend was in the Marines for 20 years--great man. One of my best friends from HS is at West Point--quite possibly the best person I have ever met. One of my fraternity brothers spent 8 years in the Navy--and in the SEALS at that. If you want to talk about someone that according to Plan9 would be brainwashed into killing everything that moves, he is it. And yet he is one of the most true, honest, and reliable people I know.

People have this negative image of the military that has only been further perpetuated by Hollywood and the media, which for the most part, is completely untrue.

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"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
--Plato

rat

Did you even read my original post? Do you have any firsthand knowledge of training techniques and/or Basic School content? let alone what they teach at BNOC? Do you have any experience with anything they teach at any of the advanced direct-combat schools--namely BUD/S, Ranger, Army SF (Green Beret) or the Force Recon training centers? Ever been to Coronado, Benning, Bragg or Quantico? Ever been involved in Basic or an Officer Training Program?

Let me explain this one more time for the illiterate: all U.S. troops are trained to exercise forethought and judgement. Some however, like the rest of us, fail to do so under various circumstances, especially those involved with alcohol.

If you haven't yet, go back and read my first post in this thread. you may just learn something if you READ INSTEAD OF POST WITHOUT THINKING. defossilize your thought process and open your mind up a little bit. take it from those of us that have the knowledge, have received training, and who know what we're talking about.

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Plan9Senior

Simmer down kiddo. Your post only makes me assume you actually are a marine and thereby just reinforces my thoughts about them. Glad I am not standing next to you... who knows, you could have a knife

runawayfetus

u should change ur title.. because people need to have a little more respect for marines/armies these days

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ZërØ¢ØØ£

We do training down there with the Austrailian Military...

but yeah, there is gotta be more to this story than what is being told. But either way either what they did was completly wrong, or it was self defense.

oh yeah, btw, it always seems that 1 bad incident that happens outweighs 100 good ones....

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high_way

i agree. i wasnt tryin to put down or give defence personal a bad name, but when this happens you just wonder.

it also makes think 'will this happen to me next time i see an aj or the like in town?'.

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zer010gic

Have you ever seen the Movie Full Metal Jacket. When it was released alot of people said it was very close to the real thing in alot of ways. There is not a problem with the Marines just that the goverment needs to do a better job weeding out the wackos...

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onetime2

Hmmm, 195,000 or so Marines and how many incidents? I think they do a pretty good job of "weeding". There's only so much that can be done.

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Seaver

Full Metal Jacket is absolutely nothing like what boot camp is now. If your feelings are hurt you can raise a little card and the instructor cant yell at you for the rest of the day.... no I'm not kidding, and yes that includes the Marines.

And yes, the Marines have existed since 1776, and how many incidents have there been? Not many. No Marines are not wackos... this article said nothing about the actual events nor the timeline so we all know nothing, and can assume nothing.

PoteMatic

Marines are trained to fight why the hell are you gonna go start shit with um lol.

His Shadow X

Semper Fi



Hey, I just got back from Marine Corps boot camp and they still beat you and PT you till you fucking die. There are still sucides like in Full Metal Jacket and the movie has nothing on what it really is like.

If you think in Marine Corps boot camp they don't touch you well...

You need to go enlist and see for yourself.

You get hit, kicked, hair pulled and thrown every way.

Don't listen to what any nasty civilian says. Cause, they know nothing about Marine Corps boot camp.

onetime2

Exactly what hair are they pulling?

Diego or PI?

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tommyboy

I guess i can comment on this. Being an enlisted Marine four years as an infantry rifelman from 88 to 92 I saw my share of bar fights and such. Humanity is the same all over the world when alcohol is involved. One thing is said which leads to a fight. Simple as that. Of course I don not agree with what these particular Marines did. We were taught discipline and respect in all aspects. We trained to defend ourselves and others in times of conflict but also to help people in peacetime.

As far as Shadow X's comments....I never got hit once and nor did I ever see anyone get hit in bootcamp, heck when I went though in 88 "mothers of america" had put a stop to SWEARING at recruits. Shadow must be a woman Marine becuase if memory served me right us men had shaved heads.

Seaver

Exactly... how can you pull a high-and-tight haircut?

If you got beat the only way it would have been done is from other recruits. The only time I was ever hit was in self-defense class, and yeah for an entire week I got the shit kicked out of me. Outside of the boundries though no one dared.

His Shadow X

Diego, and I was apart of Golf company they used to PT us each and every way. Our worst punishment was making everyone in our unit get into the head and get on top of each other and drink twelve water bowls and of course someone would throw up on us.

MARINE DIs STOPPED SWEARING?



They tell you when you get there or the Senior Drill Intructor does. Do not write home or if you get a chance to call, do not stay any nasty comments. Some people have been in boot camp for over a year as a punishment.

tommyboy

This is my last comment to this post. I can gaurantee beyond all doubt that Shadow X was never in Marine Corps boot camp. If you care to respond please do so in a private messege. Sorry about getting off topic...I couldnt help myself.