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Old 09-02-2004, 07:02 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Recycling... why not more?

I'm curious and looking for more certain answers (though opinions are, as always, more than welcome).

I was sitting in my local Barnes and Noble the other day drinking a Tazo tea from their cafe. I got up to throw it away and it dawned on me that they don't recycle. Not their glass bottles (like mine), or their recyclable plastic cups and lids (they are 1s or 2s, so they are recyclable almost anywhere in the US). Nothing! Starbucks, where combatmedicjen works, is the same way, with basically the same products.

Is it that cost-ineffective? Are there certain business politics involved? Does it actually cost a lot out of pocket? When cities recycle within their populace, why don't most extend those recycling privilages to businesses?

What prevents businesses, small or large, from recycling? What can be done to fix it? What would be the costs involved in being a recycling middle-man, a small company that just picks up recyclables, seperates and delivers them to appropriate places... even as a volunteer organization?
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Old 09-02-2004, 07:07 AM   #2 (permalink)
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1) Overabundance of materials
2) Cost
3) Unavailability of recyclers
4) Difficulty of recycling

I'm told my current place of business used to recycle office paper, which cost them an extra fee, until they found out that the regular trash and the "recycling" were being put in the same bin by the people who picked it up.
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Old 09-02-2004, 07:25 AM   #3 (permalink)
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denim-

That's really sad.


1) Yes, but natural resources could be saved, and man-made resources are BAD for the environment, both in manufacturing and in disposal.

2) Anybody know how much it truly costs?

3) In Michigan at least, there are a ton of recycling facilities. I know the same is true for California

4) How is it difficult? I'm curious what your thoughts are...
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Old 09-02-2004, 07:31 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Recycling Is good for the enviroment but not good for the economy it cost more than its worth to recycle almost any thing. Metals copper aluminum brass are about the only thing you can turn a profit on in recycling
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Old 09-02-2004, 07:34 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cj22009
Recycling Is good for the enviroment but not good for the economy
That's true, but what good is an economy without an inhabitable environment?
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Old 09-02-2004, 07:41 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I have to agree with you present but alot of people don't I recycle I was just telling x why most companys/people don't most people think about cost and nothing else
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Old 09-02-2004, 07:51 AM   #7 (permalink)
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recycling is the approximate equivalent of a complete and total waste of time. pump the same dollars spent in recycling into R&D and develop more environmentally friendly packaging. wrappers made of material that completely breaks down in a landfill within a few weeks. bottles/containers that can be burned away without toxic emission. recycling was a start in the right direction and raised awareness of how we are destroying our environment, but the actual act of recycling is useless, on any scale.
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Old 09-02-2004, 07:55 AM   #8 (permalink)
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We recycle plastic and glass at home. Pay a little extra to our waste management pick-up but I consider it worth it. They use seaparate trucks for the pick-up so I'm pretty certain it doesn't all end up in the landfill. When out I will use recycling bins if available.
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Old 09-02-2004, 08:14 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigoldalphamale
recycling is the approximate equivalent of a complete and total waste of time. pump the same dollars spent in recycling into R&D and develop more environmentally friendly packaging. wrappers made of material that completely breaks down in a landfill within a few weeks. bottles/containers that can be burned away without toxic emission. recycling was a start in the right direction and raised awareness of how we are destroying our environment, but the actual act of recycling is useless, on any scale.

On the contrary, big...

a) If we just discovered more "friendly" materials to throw away or burn, we still have to use finite resources to keep making them over and over again. That's like saying alt. fuel vehicles are useless, just make engines that burn less petro. Well, that's great for now... but we still use it faster than dinosaurs turn into oil.

b) Recycling metals (steel, aluminum, copper) are almost a requirements... these are also very finite in their quantity.

c) Recycling other products, especially plastics and paper, cut down a lot. The small cost out of pocket is worth it in the long run. I'd be willing for federal income tax (which is useless anyways) to go up 0.25% so that they recycled everything that they could. *shrug* Why not?
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Old 09-02-2004, 08:17 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigoldalphamale
pump the same dollars spent in recycling into R&D and develop more environmentally friendly packaging..
Consumers can play a part in this as well, and just refuse to buy products that have excessive packaging, or complain about it. Complaints worked with the excessive packing on CDs.

I've seen statistics on how much tonnage of disposable diapers and feminine hygiene products make it into the landfills each and every year. It's truly appalling.

Small changes that a person makes can make a big difference in the amount of waste that's created every year. I'm off coffee right now, but my 4x a day caffeine fix would have contributed greatly to trash, so I have always carried my own travel cup or coffee cup, so I don't create waste -places like Starbucks will discount if you use your own cup too...

We tend to be a disposable generation, don't fix the broken tv set, get a new one, a newer electronic gadget with newer bells and whistles shows up, the old one gets tossed.
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Old 09-02-2004, 08:32 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xepherys
On the contrary, big...

a) If we just discovered more "friendly" materials to throw away or burn, we still have to use finite resources to keep making them over and over again. That's like saying alt. fuel vehicles are useless, just make engines that burn less petro. Well, that's great for now... but we still use it faster than dinosaurs turn into oil.

b) Recycling metals (steel, aluminum, copper) are almost a requirements... these are also very finite in their quantity.

c) Recycling other products, especially plastics and paper, cut down a lot. The small cost out of pocket is worth it in the long run. I'd be willing for federal income tax (which is useless anyways) to go up 0.25% so that they recycled everything that they could. *shrug* Why not?
a) In regards to alternative fuel vehicles being useless, I believe that for the most part, the alternative fuel vehicles that are being touted are pretty much useless in terms of saving the environment. Hydrogen fuel cells seem to me to be on the forefront of the alternative fuel vehicles and they're just not the answer. The hydrogen fuel cell is just a storage tank, in order for the hydrogen to get there energy must be expended.

b) Recycling metals is profitable and done all the time.

c) I think we could make better use of resources by looking for alternatives to what we're currently doing. Using hemp for paper would be a step in the right direction. It's also my understanding that a lot of plastics are just not recyclable.

Regardless, I'm very interested in any research that's been done in this area. I'm all for bettering the environment, but I'm not totally convinced that sorting my trash into seperate little piles will do a whole lot of good.
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Old 09-02-2004, 08:32 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I read an extensive article a year ago in a Florida newspaper that detailed exactly why Manhattan was abandoning its fabled recycling program. The article was a practical description of everything that went wrong with the whole recycling craze (including misconceptions, misunderstandings, and blatant lies), but I can't find the dang thing anywhere. I saved it, but misplaced it (maybe it got recycled?).

Anyway **voice of Ah-nuld** "hear me now and believe me later," recycling ended up being an impractical boost to the psyche of guilty hippies and not much more.
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Old 09-02-2004, 09:20 AM   #13 (permalink)
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All I have to say is, FREAKING WAL-MART SACKS!

Blue plastic sacks blowing across the Oklahoma plains instead of tumbleweeds. Stupid, money grubbing, women opressing, made in China by slave labor whoring jackals, town killing, business ruining, lowest common denominator, overseas job supporting, filthy, evil, cult like Wal-Mart executive assholes. Lower than lawyers, lower than used car salesmen. The cheap bastards used to at least have a barrel at the store to re-cycle their evil symbols of cheap. I guess there was no profit margin in that. Kind of like buying things made in America.

Sorry, this has been building up for a while.
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Old 09-02-2004, 09:53 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigoldalphamale
recycling is the approximate equivalent of a complete and total waste of time. pump the same dollars spent in recycling into R&D and develop more environmentally friendly packaging. wrappers made of material that completely breaks down in a landfill within a few weeks. bottles/containers that can be burned away without toxic emission. recycling was a start in the right direction and raised awareness of how we are destroying our environment, but the actual act of recycling is useless, on any scale.
(a) Environmentally-friendly packaging:
It doesn't matter how environmentally friendly the packaging is, it still requires natural resources to make them. Natural resources are a finite quantity.


(b) Things that do not generate toxic emissions when burned:
Not practical, there is no such thing, nor could there ever be. The process of burning something will always end up creating CO2, CO and NOx at the very least. That's basically what burning something is. You convert Carbon and Oxygen into CO2. You can force organic compounds to completely burn away, but that requires more fuel, resulting in more CO2, CO, NOx.

Beyond that, there is the general feeling from many here that we shouldn't recycle because it may cost more than just using virgin materials. Sorry but that is total bullshit. It's a common practice these days to pass our problems on to future generations. You see it with energy needs, government spending, and in this case, resource management. Although nobody knows when it will happen but if we keep going down that path, someday our future generation will be stuck on a planet with diminished resources, overburdening debt, a fucked up environment, and no remaining hydrocarbons to use to make energy. Will they say, "damn this sucks for us, but at least our forefathers were thinking of the bottom line and investor dividends?" Doubt it.

I do agree that H2 fuels are probably not an answer. You always hear about how hydrogen is the most abundant element in the world, but most of it is in the form of water. Breaking water into H2 and O2 and then using that H2 and O2 to make water in order to power an engine uses more energy than it releases. Therefore, what is the best place to get H2 from? You guessed it, oil.


Oh yeah, and FUCK WAL-MART!
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Old 09-02-2004, 10:38 AM   #15 (permalink)
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saving the environment will require a brand new paradigm in consumption and disposal. it will be independent of finite resources. something synthetic and somehow simultaneously organic. all i am saying, is that what is being done now, in the way of recycling and hybrid cars and other such hoaky initiatives isnt nearly enough to curb the damage we are still doing...nevermind fixing the damage we have already done. if anything, i side more with the people who are planting trees and sinking whaling boats. at least they are expending effort to make a difference. sorry, but dropping your used fresca can or starbucks coffee cup into a 'different' trash can under the premise that you're 'making a difference' is ignorance.
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Old 09-02-2004, 10:52 AM   #16 (permalink)
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besides...as long as we are collectively spending hundreds of billions of dollars to find ways to make humans live longer, reduce infant mortality, and generally assure a certain overpopulation problem...its a waste of time to spend any money or effort on saving the environment. so maybe i have corrected myself...the paradigm shift first needs to come in our way of thinking about the future. do we really need billions more humans living to be 150 years old? or do we need a safe and environmentally stable one to support the human existence as we currently know it. *ponders*
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Old 09-02-2004, 10:55 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I'm right there with you on the overpopulation issue. People should not be exceeding their natural lifespans. If we bump the average lifespan up 50 years it will cause so many problems.
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Old 09-02-2004, 11:09 AM   #18 (permalink)
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My boy scout troop recycled newspapers 15 years ago and we made money off a private recyclying firm. Granted, we were only paid about twenty dollars a ton, but it paid for our bus insurance once a month. We collected about 5 or 6 tons a month. It was wiped out when our county started curbside recycling.
I think it also works when the population is dense enough. Our recycling truck comes through a couple of hundred townhomes in our 900 home neighborhood. Fuel costs are low compared to the amount of recycling generated.
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Old 09-02-2004, 11:16 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Bigoldaolphamale

Good logical thinking. Are you on the ballot anywhere.
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Old 09-02-2004, 11:17 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockogre
All I have to say is, FREAKING WAL-MART SACKS!
And all I have to add is that as long as Wal-Mart continues to make those blue sacks, I will never have to buy small garbage bags again.

Talk about recycling.....
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Old 09-02-2004, 11:21 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I know, I need to buy some re-useable shopping bags. we don't have any need for those bags so they just get thrown away.
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Old 09-02-2004, 06:14 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maleficent
We tend to be a disposable generation, don't fix the broken tv set, get a new one, a newer electronic gadget with newer bells and whistles shows up, the old one gets tossed.
The only problem with this argument is that most of the items made now are NOT meant to be fixed, but meant to be disposable. I have taken apart a bunch of electronics that stopped working, to find out that there isn't much of anything that can be done to try and fix it (unless you can find the 1 non-working chip or something). The only other issue is that by the time most tv's break, you generally can't find the parts or it costs more to fix then replace.

At least the materials we have been using to make this stuff is more friendly/less toxic then they used to be.

Now, on topic....
I know that around here (NYC), they have changed the specifics of recycling so many times that usually you have NO clue as to what is recyclable and what isn't. (doesn't help that each different area has a different regulation)
They have started to make sure that people are recycling properly by handing out fines tho.
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Old 09-03-2004, 05:07 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xepherys
1) Yes, but natural resources could be saved, and man-made resources are BAD for the environment, both in manufacturing and in disposal.
2) Anybody know how much it truly costs?
3) In Michigan at least, there are a ton of recycling facilities. I know the same is true for California
4) How is it difficult? I'm curious what your thoughts are...
It's difficult because there's extra effort involved. My attitude is that the difficulty is minimal, but others don't agree.
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Old 09-03-2004, 06:37 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: Recycling Electronics

Recycling electronics is a big problem, because it takes a lot of work to tear those boxes down into their components. This is an area where technology might help. A couple of years ago I read about experiments in Europe on building consumer electronics out of special kinds of plastics with special kinds of fasteners. When heated to 300 or 400 degrees, all the fasteners would let go and the device would fall apart into its components so that they could be sorted and recycled with maximum efficiency. Haven't heard of that since, but that's the direction to go in.
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Old 09-03-2004, 07:05 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Another reason for recycling: we're running out of space to put the trash.

In California, landfills have been filling up too quickly with trash, and it's difficult to build new ones because nobody wants them in their neighborhood. So aside from waste, we have to recycle to avoid being buried in trash.

Last year, I had a tour of a world-class recycling operation at the regional landfill for Monterey, CA. The local garbage haulers handled had already diverted the paper, plastic, and cans for recycling, and the domestic greenwaste. The landfill operators found ways to recycle all the commercial waste and stuff which is hauled directly to the landfill by private parties, which is actually the majority of the waste.

*All yard waste and wood that came in -- uprooted trees, construction waste, demolition scrap, etc. -- was chipped or composted and sold as mulch, topsoil, potting soil, decorative woodchips, or firewood. A lot of it went directly to a commercial composter down the road.

*All concrete waste that came in from demolition jobs was separated and crushed at intervals, then sold to the state as gravel and sand for use in road construction and repaving, and in landscaping. There was a huge pile of it.

*All usable items were diverted to an onsite thrift store (which, we were told, more than paid for itself)

*The garbage that gets through the process and actually goes into the landfill, generates electricity. The landfill is plastic lined with plastic pipes embedded in it at different heights (layer by layer as the landfill builds up). Methane gas generated by decomposition goes into the pipes and to a generator station which generates enough electricity to power all activities at the landfill and 3000 homes besides: they sell the excess to the local power utility.

So, besides the recycling that we all know, there is other recycling that can and should take place at the regional level, and this should be promoted nationwide to reduce the growth of landfills.
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Old 09-03-2004, 07:07 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Sounds like a very impressive operation.
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Old 09-03-2004, 08:57 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Remember: Recylcing is the final and LEAST important of the things you can do to be more environmentally friendly. First reduce consumption and then reuse what you do consume. Without giving these two steps major priority, recycling is pretty much worthless.
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Old 09-04-2004, 03:28 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Everyone should check out Penn & Tellers Bullshit take on recycling. Very funny and very informative.
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Old 09-04-2004, 05:42 PM   #29 (permalink)
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When I went to Canada, Tim Horton's had a bin for recyclables, paper and other compostables, and garbage. Judging by the inability (or unwillingness) of the average US citizen to just put out a fucking recycling bin, I don't think it would work here, but it's a good effort. I never did get an answer as to where wax paper was supposed to go, so I put it in the trash.
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Old 09-04-2004, 06:24 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frowning Budah
Everyone should check out Penn & Tellers Bullshit take on recycling. Very funny and very informative.
There isn't a transcript of the show available, but the show's influences are widely available. This article is too big to post word for word so I'll just post a little excerpt and then the link:

"Believing that there was no more room in landfills, Americans concluded that recycling was their only option. Their intentions were good and their conclusions seemed plausible. Recycling does sometimes make sense -- for some materials in some places at some times. But the simplest and cheapest option is usually to bury garbage in an environmentally safe landfill. And since there's no shortage of landfill space (the crisis of 1987 was a false alarm), there's no reason to make recycling a legal or moral imperative. Mandatory recycling programs aren't good for posterity. They offer mainly short-term benefits to a few groups -- politicians, public relations consultants, environmental organizations, waste-handling corporations -- while diverting money from genuine social and environmental problems. Recycling may be the most wasteful activity in modern America: a waste of time and money, a waste of human and natural resources."

http://www.nrdc.org/cities/recycling/recyc/appenda.asp
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Old 09-05-2004, 09:03 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Even if whaqt you say is true, Big Gov -- and I'm not gonna do the research right now -- it's frankly getting harder and harder to find new landfill sites in desirable or heavily populated areas, because nobody wants them near their house. The county I live in just gave up trying to find a new landfill site because they can't find a single part of the county where people aren't willing to fight to the death against a landfill coming in. So they're going to see if they can pay somebody else to take it. Given this political reality, and the cost of trucking all your garbage 20 or 50 or more miles away -- there is a real shortage of landfill in many parts of this country. Because the citizens won't allow new ones to be built. It's not just the fault of politicians and waste handlers.

There may be no shortage of landfill sites 50 miles away -- but is it cost-effective to ship the garbage that far? That's a good question.

No matter how hard-core you are against it, some recycling's always a good idea. If you've got a back yard, you should have a compost heap in it. All our vegetable waste goes there, plus things like dregs of rice and pasta and paper towels and even tortilla chips. The worms munch it all down; I've been putting big bags of stuff in my composter every week for two years and it's not full yet. Meanwhile, some weeks there's so little garbage in the can (we do put the cans and papers in a separate recycling container) that I don't bother to put it on the curb.

On the other hand, if those melon rinds and apple peels are buried in a landfill, in an anaerobic environment, they may never rot. They might be there 50 years from now.

Last edited by Rodney; 09-05-2004 at 09:08 PM..
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