France has freedom of religion....oh wait - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

SecretMethod70 · 01-18-2004, 03:49 PM

Yes I'll agree the article spins it to make it look worse than it is, but it doesn't change the fact that it prohibits some people - from many different religions - from practicing their religion freely. That's hat the problem is here.

Secularism in government is a wonderful and noble goal to strive for, but secularism in government doesn't equate to prohibiting regular citizens from openly being religious. We're not talking about government workers here.

Halx · 01-18-2004, 04:01 PM

you may have a point there... and I agree that forcing others away from their religion will cause some ill feelings. However, schools are government-regulated institutions in France, are they not?

SecretMethod70 · 01-18-2004, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Halx
you may have a point there... and I agree that forcing others away from their religion will cause some ill feelings. However, schools are government-regulated institutions in France, are they not?

Don't know, but schools are government regulated in America and I knew plenty of people that came to my public high school with yamakas on their head or muslim headdresses. No one was offended by it and it was perfectly acceptable. It's just another form of free speech.

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-18-2004, 08:33 PM

While were on the idea topic of government forced secularism and the beauty therein, I would like to remind you of two regimes in the last century that were rather fond of the idea... Stalin's Russia and Saddam's Iraq. Wearing overt religious symbols, what does that get you, a trip to the gulags. Saddam would do what he felt necessary to keep religious identity down, even death, because religion challenged his power. Not comparing whats going on in Europe to Russia or Iraq, but hey its got to start somewhere.

powerclown · 01-18-2004, 09:08 PM

Quote:

President Jacques Chirac says the aim is to protect the principle of secularism that anchors life in France.

I love the French to death, but you cannot take seriously a culture that popularized the eating of garden snails.

wink

added 'wink'...

ARTelevision · 01-18-2004, 11:56 PM

Mojo_PeiPei, I do take it as axiomatic that dictatorships of any stripe force the banishment of all points of view not directly aligned with officialdom. I don't see that amounting to a critique of secularism per se.

SecretMethod70 · 01-18-2004, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ARTelevision
Mojo_PeiPei, I do take it as axiomatic that dictatorships of any stripe force the banishment of all points of view not directly aligned with officialdom. I don't see that amounting to a critique of secularism per se.

I think he meant government forced secularism specifically, not secularism in general.

ARTelevision · 01-19-2004, 12:05 AM

SecretMethod70, I'm sure that's what was meant. I just didn't want the baby thrown out with the bathwater...

Moskie · 01-19-2004, 08:03 AM

A small semantics question...

Is there a difference between the word "secularism" and the words "banning of all religion"?

I've always thought that something is secular when it does not pertain to religion, but it seems that some people are using it here to mean the active banning of religion. There's a stark difference between those defintions for me, and I want to make sure I'm using the proper terms.

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-19-2004, 08:15 AM

sec·u·lar·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sky-l-rzm)
n.
Religious skepticism or indifference.
The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education.

secularism

n : a doctrine that rejects religion and religious considerations

****
I don't know, that seems a like a little more then mere indifference.

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-19-2004, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ARTelevision
Mojo_PeiPei, I do take it as axiomatic that dictatorships of any stripe force the banishment of all points of view not directly aligned with officialdom. I don't see that amounting to a critique of secularism per se.

Also I'm in no way comparing Chirac to Stalin or Saddam. But it all has to start somewhere. And it makes me wonder what he is going to do when people don't cooperate?

bonehed1 · 01-19-2004, 08:48 AM

I hate the french. They are a bunch of bastards. Give the french and inch and they will run all over you.

NeverBorn · 01-19-2004, 08:51 AM

We're americans its our duty to bash the french..after all thats what we expect of them.

Prince · 01-19-2004, 08:52 AM

What about the separate school they have for homosexuals somewhere up in New York, or around there?

I don't believe that religion and schools should be intertwined in any way. There are schools in which you have to wear a school uniform if you wish to attend. That, to me, is the other extreme.

I recently learned that in this country, the States, you can get arrested or fined for stopping by the side of the road to take a leak, or going skinny-dipping. Apparently both are considered public indecency or some bullshit like that. Because of my cultural background, I find nothing wrong with nudity, but veiled people I find unnerving.

That said, I don't believe it should be the government's job to dictate something like this. Individual schools could do it, if they choose to. They've already got a head start in the States what with separating gays into their own schools.

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-19-2004, 08:59 AM

The "gays" seperated themselves in that situation.

Prince · 01-19-2004, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
The "gays" seperated themselves in that situation.

Yeah...wonder why.

01-18-2004, 03:49 PM	#41 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Yes I'll agree the article spins it to make it look worse than it is, but it doesn't change the fact that it prohibits some people - from many different religions - from practicing their religion freely. That's hat the problem is here. Secularism in government is a wonderful and noble goal to strive for, but secularism in government doesn't equate to prohibiting regular citizens from openly being religious. We're not talking about government workers here. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

01-18-2004, 04:01 PM	#42 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	you may have a point there... and I agree that forcing others away from their religion will cause some ill feelings. However, schools are government-regulated institutions in France, are they not? __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

01-18-2004, 08:33 PM	#44 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	While were on the idea topic of government forced secularism and the beauty therein, I would like to remind you of two regimes in the last century that were rather fond of the idea... Stalin's Russia and Saddam's Iraq. Wearing overt religious symbols, what does that get you, a trip to the gulags. Saddam would do what he felt necessary to keep religious identity down, even death, because religion challenged his power. Not comparing whats going on in Europe to Russia or Iraq, but hey its got to start somewhere. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

01-18-2004, 11:56 PM	#46 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Mojo_PeiPei, I do take it as axiomatic that dictatorships of any stripe force the banishment of all points of view not directly aligned with officialdom. I don't see that amounting to a critique of secularism per se. __________________ create evolution

01-19-2004, 12:05 AM	#48 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	SecretMethod70, I'm sure that's what was meant. I just didn't want the baby thrown out with the bathwater... __________________ create evolution

01-19-2004, 08:03 AM	#49 (permalink)
Moskie Pure Chewing Satisfaction Location: can i use bbcode [i]here[/i]?	A small semantics question... Is there a difference between the word "secularism" and the words "banning of all religion"? I've always thought that something is secular when it does not pertain to religion, but it seems that some people are using it here to mean the active banning of religion. There's a stark difference between those defintions for me, and I want to make sure I'm using the proper terms. __________________ Greetings and salutations.

01-19-2004, 08:15 AM	#50 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	sec·u·lar·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sky-l-rzm) n. Religious skepticism or indifference. The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education. secularism n : a doctrine that rejects religion and religious considerations **** I don't know, that seems a like a little more then mere indifference. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

01-19-2004, 08:48 AM	#52 (permalink)
bonehed1 Psycho Location: California	I hate the french. They are a bunch of bastards. Give the french and inch and they will run all over you. __________________ Stuff is Good

01-19-2004, 08:51 AM	#53 (permalink)
NeverBorn I'm a pepper bitch..	We're americans its our duty to bash the french..after all thats what we expect of them.

01-19-2004, 08:52 AM	#54 (permalink)
Prince /nɑndəsˈkrɪpt/ Location: LV-426	What about the separate school they have for homosexuals somewhere up in New York, or around there? I don't believe that religion and schools should be intertwined in any way. There are schools in which you have to wear a school uniform if you wish to attend. That, to me, is the other extreme. I recently learned that in this country, the States, you can get arrested or fined for stopping by the side of the road to take a leak, or going skinny-dipping. Apparently both are considered public indecency or some bullshit like that. Because of my cultural background, I find nothing wrong with nudity, but veiled people I find unnerving. That said, I don't believe it should be the government's job to dictate something like this. Individual schools could do it, if they choose to. They've already got a head start in the States what with separating gays into their own schools. __________________ Who is John Galt? Last edited by Prince; 01-19-2004 at 08:55 AM..

01-19-2004, 08:59 AM	#55 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	The "gays" seperated themselves in that situation. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.