You thought Hitler's SS was bad? Well... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

omega2K4 · 01-10-2004, 11:48 PM

...the RIAA has formed its own "Anti-Piracy Unit", basically a group of burnt out ex-cops with nothing else to do but pose as police officers and bust street vendors.

Quote:

Music Industry Puts Troops in the Streets
Quasi-legal squads raid street vendors
by Ben Sullivan

Though no guns were brandished, the bust from a distance looked like classic LAPD, DEA or FBI work, right down to the black "raid" vests the unit members wore. The fact that their yellow stenciled lettering read "RIAA" instead of something from an official law-enforcement agency was lost on 55-year-old parking-lot attendant Ceasar Borrayo.

The Recording Industry Association of America is taking it to the streets.

Even as it suffers setbacks in the courtroom, the RIAA has over the last 18 months built up a national staff of ex-cops to crack down on people making and selling illegal CDs in the hood.

The result has been a growing number of scenes like the one played out in Silver Lake just before Christmas, during an industry blitz to combat music piracy.

Borrayo attends to a parking lot next to the landmark El 7 Mares fish-taco stand on Sunset Boulevard. To supplement his buck-a-car income, he began, in 2003, selling records and videos from a makeshift stand in front of the lot.

In a good week, Borrayo said, he might unload five or 10 albums and a couple DVDs at $5 apiece. Paying a distributor about half that up-front, he thought he’d lucked into a nice side business.

The RIAA saw it differently. Figuring the discs were bootlegs, a four-man RIAA squad descended on his stand a few days before Christmas and persuaded the 4-foot-11 Borrayo to hand over voluntarily a total of 78 discs. It wasn’t a tough sell.

"They said they were police from the recording industry or something, and next time they’d take me away in handcuffs," he said through an interpreter. Borrayo says he has no way of knowing if the records, with titles like Como Te Extraño Vol. IV — Musica de los 70’s y 80’s, are illegal, but he thought better of arguing the point.

The RIAA acknowledges it all — except the notion that its staff presents itself as police. Yes, they may all be ex-P.D. Yes, they wear cop-style clothes and carry official-looking IDs. But if they leave people like Borrayo with the impression that they’re actual law enforcement, that’s a mistake.

"We want to be very clear who we are and what we’re doing," says John Langley, Western regional coordinator for the RIAA Anti-Piracy Unit. "First and foremost, we’re professionals."

Langley, based in Los Alamitos, California, oversees five staff investigators and around 20 contractors who sniff out bootleg discs west of the Rockies. The former Royal Canadian Mountie said his unit’s on-the-streets approach has been a big success, netting more than 100,000 pieces of unauthorized merchandise during the recent Christmas retail blitz.

With all the trappings of a police team, including pink incident reports that, among other things, record a vendor’s height, weight, hair and eye color, the RIAA squad can give those busted the distinct impression they’re tangling with minions of Johnny Law instead of David Geffen. And that raises some potential legal questions.

Contacted for this article, the Southern California branch of the American Civil Liberties Union said it needed more information on the practices to know if specific civil liberties were at risk.

But if an anti-piracy team crossed the line between looking like cops and implying or telling vendors that they are cops, the Los Angeles Police Department would take a pretty dim view, said LAPD spokesman Jason Lee.

"I will not say it’s okay to be [selling] illegal stuff," Lee said. "That’s a violation of penal codes.

"But it doesn’t really matter what your status is. If that person feels he was wrongly interrogated or under the false pretense that these people were cops, they should contact their local police station as a victim. We’ll sort it all out."

For its part, the RIAA maintains that the up-close-and-personal techniques are nothing new. RIAA spokesman Jonathan Lamy says its investigators do not represent themselves as police, and that the incident reports vendors are asked to sign, in which they agree to hand over their discs, explicitly state that the forfeiture is voluntary.

Lamy and the RIAA are unapologetic about taking the fight against music piracy to the streets. Though the association has suffered a few high-profile legal setbacks in recent months — most notably when a three-judge panel ruled that Internet service providers do not have to squeal on their file-swapping customers — community action is extremely effective.

Langley says the anti-piracy teams have about an 80 percent success rate in persuading vendors to hand over their merchandise voluntarily for destruction.

"We notify them that continued sale would be a violation of civil and criminal codes. If they’d like to voluntarily turn the product over to us, we’ll destroy it, and we agree we won’t sue," he explained.

The pink incident sheets and photos that Langley’s teams take of vendors are meant to establish a paper trail, particularly for repeat offenders.

"A large percentage [of the vendors] are of a Hispanic nature," Langley said. "Today he’s Jose Rodriguez, tomorrow he’s Raul something or other, and tomorrow after that he’s something else. These people change their identity all the time. A picture’s worth a thousand words."

Though Langley says he doesn’t know what tack his new boss will take, the recent hiring of Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Director Bradley Buckles to head the anti-piracy unit has some RIAA watchers holding their breath.

On its face, the move looks like a shift toward even more in-your-face enforcement. But don’t expect all RIAA critics to rally to the side of Borrayo and other sellers.

"The process of confiscating bootleg CDs from street vendors is exactly what the RIAA should be doing," said Jason Schultz, a staff attorney for the San Francisco–based Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF).

The EFF has frequently crossed swords with the record industry over its strategy of suing ISPs and individual listeners accused of downloading tunes from the Internet. A champion of copyright "fair use," the EFF says Buckles could bring a more balanced approach to the RIAA’s anti-piracy efforts. The more time the association spends rousting vendors, the thinking goes, the less it will spend subpoenaing KaZaa and BearShare aficionados.

Meanwhile, Borrayo will have to keep his eyes open for another source of income. Though he says he still sees nothing wrong with what he did, the guy who once supplied him records hasn’t been around in a couple months.

"They tried to scare me," Borrayo said. "They told me, ‘You’re a pirate!’ I said, ‘C’mon, guys, pirates are all at sea. I just work in a parking lot.’ "

Link to original story

Man, the RIAA's actions just get more ridiculous everyday.

numist · 01-10-2004, 11:58 PM

ridiculous, thats the word I was fishing for...

how about un-believeable (as said by handsome rob in Italian Job)

Dont they already have enough on their hands?

papermachesatan · 01-11-2004, 12:30 AM

Quote:

"They said they were police from the recording industry or something, and next time they’d take me away in handcuffs," he said through an interpreter. Borrayo says he has no way of knowing if the records, with titles like Como Te Extraño Vol. IV — Musica de los 70’s y 80’s, are illegal, but he thought better of arguing the point.

The RIAA acknowledges it all — except the notion that its staff presents itself as police. Yes, they may all be ex-P.D. Yes, they wear cop-style clothes and carry official-looking IDs. But if they leave people like Borrayo with the impression that they’re actual law enforcement, that’s a mistake.

That really bothers me. RIAA has no business impersonating law enforcement.

nanofever · 01-11-2004, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by papermachesatan
That really bothers me. RIAA has no business impersonating law enforcement.

At this rate the RIAA will implode before I pass the bar, but I wanted to destroy them !

Strange Famous · 01-11-2004, 02:18 AM

The RIAA is a criminal organisation. It should abolished, destroyed, its leaders imprisoned, its office's torn down, its wealth taken from it, their employee's should be publically flogged.

Spartak · 01-11-2004, 02:25 AM

And its oppressive apparatus must be turned back onto itself!!

Wax_off · 01-11-2004, 03:42 AM

Certainly they should be investigated under the RICO act.

GakFace · 01-11-2004, 04:49 AM

Quote:

"They said they were police from the recording industry or something, and next time they’d take me away in handcuffs," he said through an interpreter.

Yet they say they shouldn't be taken as cops? What the bloody hell?

Holo · 01-11-2004, 05:28 AM

/me goes on a dl spree in protest.

ChrisJericho · 01-11-2004, 06:00 AM

I don't like cops, let alone people giving the impression they're cops.

Remember kiddies, if ANYONE ever asks if they can come inside your home or search your vehicle... the answer is always NO.

Nefir · 01-11-2004, 08:17 AM

I commend the RIAA's actions. They are on the straight-and-narrow path towards final achievement of that coveted Corporate Darwin Award. I wish them best of luck in achieving this goal.

May the hole they dig for themselves be deep, cold, and infested with maggots.

Psivage · 01-11-2004, 08:59 AM

There will be trouble with the RIAA Anti-Piracy Unit, at first they will be alright, then once the word starts to spread they aren't cops, the vendor will fight back, be it with fist, bottles, or guns.

Strange Famous · 01-11-2004, 09:07 AM

If RIAA employee's are shot it will be tragic, but you can only push people so far before they snap and bite back.

ForgottenKnight · 01-11-2004, 10:02 AM

That's not right. The RIAA has gone too far with having the employees look like police. All of the employees, and the RIAA itself needs to all be charged with impersonation of a police officer. But the EFF has a good point. The more time they spend doing that, the less time they're spending on subpoenaing downloaders.

Kaos · 01-11-2004, 01:09 PM

Isn't it illegal to impersonate an officer of the law?

Now they are just using bully tactics in person. Better be careful because the at some point, someone is going to protect their "business" and someones gonna end up hurt or dead.

skier · 01-11-2004, 01:14 PM

Hahahahahahaha

they're getting more and more desperate. I know they're obsolete, they know they are obsolete, everyone knows it. This latest escapade is just one of the dying kicks of a great beast.

torn lace · 01-11-2004, 03:26 PM

Quote:

"A large percentage [of the vendors] are of a Hispanic nature," Langley said. "Today he’s Jose Rodriguez, tomorrow he’s Raul something or other, and tomorrow after that he’s something else. These people change their identity all the time. A picture’s worth a thousand words."

I find this to be extraordinarily offensive. a Hispanic nature?! wtf?! And what kind of language is "tomorrow after that..."?

sailor · 01-11-2004, 03:59 PM

Me thinks a good lawyer could tear this RIAA tactic apart in about 30 minutes. Impersonating a police officer?

/me waits for RIAA to implode

guthmund · 01-11-2004, 04:30 PM

I bet 90% of the "targets" the RIAA Gestapo attack are foreigners with little command of the language and more importantly, the law. It's easy to use these bullish scare tactics on a group of folks who aren't well versed in the law and their rights.

I can't wait until someone to tell the RIAA goon squad to fuck off and to go file their lawsuits. It should make an interesting situation.

Sfizzio · 01-11-2004, 05:42 PM

This trend toward privatized law-enforcement (or security, as it is so often called) has been more and more prominent of late, it only seems fitting that the RIAA should get in on the deal as they have had no qualms about using other controversial tactics.

madp · 01-11-2004, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sfizzio
This trend toward privatized law-enforcement (or security, as it is so often called) has been more and more prominent of late, it only seems fitting that the RIAA should get in on the deal as they have had no qualms about using other controversial tactics.

No kidding. I will never buy a corporate CD again.

Stiltzkin · 01-11-2004, 05:59 PM

I said some things here that I shouldn't have. The RIAA is funny. I wish them lots of luck in all their endeavors, I really do. Evolution is a good thing

HamiC · 01-11-2004, 08:46 PM

I can't really claim to have a well-thought-out position on the RIAA, but I am fairly certain they are not doing anything that compare's to the evil done by Hitler's SS. Bad.....sure.....but let's not overstate the magnitude of the RIAA's misdeeds.....or more importantly.......trivialize those of the Nazi's.

I Brow · 01-11-2004, 08:53 PM

Evolution is a random thing.

skysooner · 01-11-2004, 09:24 PM

Absolutely ridiculous

SVT01Cobra · 01-11-2004, 09:46 PM

Quote:

ex-cops to crack down on people making and selling illegal CDs in the hood.

...in the hood, lmao.

clifclav · 01-12-2004, 08:05 AM

that made me queasy. thanks for the link. I'm off to download some more.

Derwood · 01-12-2004, 09:31 AM

Though the means are really, really wrong, I understand the sentiment. Why shouldn't someone crackdown on bootleg selling on the streets? I mean, the cops ignore it (*cough* PAYOLA *cough*) so why shouldn't someone do something? Are we really that horrified that someone doesn't want their property stolen?

mb99usa · 01-12-2004, 09:41 AM

I am not a supporter of the RIAA but these are the people they should be going after. The tactics may not be right but it is the street-vendors selling bootlegs that are the ones really costing the recording companies money.

If they can put a stop to the street level piracy maybe they will back-off a little on the file sharing once they see that they are not losing money from it.

synic213 · 01-12-2004, 09:57 AM

Is this for real?
This has the distinct tone of an "Onion" article, or something similar.
I guess only the RIAA could do something so stupid and irrational.

Bill O'Rights · 01-12-2004, 10:36 AM

And thier authority would come from where? This is worse than rent-a-cops.

mb99usa · 01-12-2004, 10:59 AM

They should work through the local/state authorities. I do not condone the tactics, I just think they are focusing on the right people.

Frowning Budah · 01-12-2004, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HamiC
I can't really claim to have a well-thought-out position on the RIAA, but I am fairly certain they are not doing anything that compare's to the evil done by Hitler's SS. Bad.....sure.....but let's not overstate the magnitude of the RIAA's misdeeds.....or more importantly.......trivialize those of the Nazi's.

I think the point being made was that the SS started with intimidation and kept getting more and more radical until some other countries had to step in and stop them by force. This sounds exactly what is happening to the RIAA. What will be their next tactic is someone doesn't step in and stop them?

mingusfingers · 01-12-2004, 08:13 PM

Haha...and how much do they pay those guys to do that...

KWSN · 01-12-2004, 08:50 PM

Just like what Chuck D (of public enemy) said on the subject a while ago... "These scare tactics are pure Gestapo."

It's true, that's exactly what they are.

bermuDa · 01-13-2004, 01:38 AM

http://www.cyporiea.net/videos/RIAA_PSA.mpeg

That is all.

Mr.Deflok · 01-13-2004, 01:52 AM

This isn't true, and you know it, however the RIAA are a bunch of losers.

Iliftrocks · 01-13-2004, 06:22 AM

Time to get a gun, huh?

quadro2000 · 01-13-2004, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mb99usa
I am not a supporter of the RIAA but these are the people they should be going after. The tactics may not be right but it is the street-vendors selling bootlegs that are the ones really costing the recording companies money.

If they can put a stop to the street level piracy maybe they will back-off a little on the file sharing once they see that they are not losing money from it.

Thank you for this. I thought I was going to be the only one with the unpopular opinion!

Their methods of cracking down (impersonating police) are incorrect. However, I can't STAND the bootleggers who set up shop on the street. To me, this is NOT the same as going after consumers who are downloading music of the internet. This is piracy, pure and simple, and I believe they SHOULD be prosecuted. They are making money off of someone else's work, and it's wrong.

mb99usa · 01-13-2004, 07:54 AM

Thanks for backing me quadro.

Part of the reason the RIAA jumped all over the download craze was because they could trace it back to the source relatively quickly and easily. Stopping the bootleggers and street vendors is more difficult because of how mobile these guys are.

If the RIAA had more support and assistance in stopping the street level vendors and mass bootleggers the online world probably would not have been such a large target.

01-11-2004, 02:18 AM	#5 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	The RIAA is a criminal organisation. It should abolished, destroyed, its leaders imprisoned, its office's torn down, its wealth taken from it, their employee's should be publically flogged. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

01-11-2004, 02:25 AM	#6 (permalink)
Spartak Bang bang Location: New Zealand	And its oppressive apparatus must be turned back onto itself!! __________________ I can read your mind... looking at you... I can read your mind...

01-11-2004, 05:28 AM	#9 (permalink)
Holo A Real American	/me goes on a dl spree in protest. __________________ I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

01-11-2004, 06:00 AM	#10 (permalink)
ChrisJericho eat more fruit Location: Seattle	I don't like cops, let alone people giving the impression they're cops. Remember kiddies, if ANYONE ever asks if they can come inside your home or search your vehicle... the answer is always NO. __________________ "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

01-11-2004, 08:17 AM	#11 (permalink)
Nefir Junkie Location: Louisville, KY	I commend the RIAA's actions. They are on the straight-and-narrow path towards final achievement of that coveted Corporate Darwin Award. I wish them best of luck in achieving this goal. May the hole they dig for themselves be deep, cold, and infested with maggots. __________________ You do not use a Macintosh, instead you use a Tandy Kompressor break your glowstick, Kompressor eat your candy Kompressor open jaws, Kompressor release ants Kompressor watch you scream, Because Kompressor does not dance

01-10-2004, 11:58 PM	#2 (permalink)
numist Banned Location: UCSD, 510.49 miles from my love	ridiculous, thats the word I was fishing for... how about un-believeable (as said by handsome rob in Italian Job) Dont they already have enough on their hands?

01-11-2004, 03:42 AM	#7 (permalink)
Wax_off No Avatar, No Sig.	Certainly they should be investigated under the RICO act.

01-11-2004, 08:59 AM	#12 (permalink)
Psivage Psycho	There will be trouble with the RIAA Anti-Piracy Unit, at first they will be alright, then once the word starts to spread they aren't cops, the vendor will fight back, be it with fist, bottles, or guns.

01-11-2004, 09:07 AM	#13 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	If RIAA employee's are shot it will be tragic, but you can only push people so far before they snap and bite back. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

01-11-2004, 10:02 AM	#14 (permalink)
ForgottenKnight Jesus Freak Location: Following the light...	That's not right. The RIAA has gone too far with having the employees look like police. All of the employees, and the RIAA itself needs to all be charged with impersonation of a police officer. But the EFF has a good point. The more time they spend doing that, the less time they're spending on subpoenaing downloaders. __________________ "People say I'm strange, does that make me a stranger?"

01-11-2004, 01:09 PM	#15 (permalink)
Kaos Ssssssssss Location: Ontario	Isn't it illegal to impersonate an officer of the law? Now they are just using bully tactics in person. Better be careful because the at some point, someone is going to protect their "business" and someones gonna end up hurt or dead.

01-11-2004, 01:14 PM	#16 (permalink)
skier Rawr! Location: Edmontania	Hahahahahahaha they're getting more and more desperate. I know they're obsolete, they know they are obsolete, everyone knows it. This latest escapade is just one of the dying kicks of a great beast. __________________ "Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

01-11-2004, 03:59 PM	#18 (permalink)
sailor beauty in the breakdown Location: Chapel Hill, NC	Me thinks a good lawyer could tear this RIAA tactic apart in about 30 minutes. Impersonating a police officer? /me waits for RIAA to implode __________________ "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." --Plato

01-11-2004, 04:30 PM	#19 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	I bet 90% of the "targets" the RIAA Gestapo attack are foreigners with little command of the language and more importantly, the law. It's easy to use these bullish scare tactics on a group of folks who aren't well versed in the law and their rights. I can't wait until someone to tell the RIAA goon squad to fuck off and to go file their lawsuits. It should make an interesting situation. __________________ No signature. None. Seriously.

01-11-2004, 05:42 PM	#20 (permalink)
Sfizzio Crazy Location: Philadelphia, PA	This trend toward privatized law-enforcement (or security, as it is so often called) has been more and more prominent of late, it only seems fitting that the RIAA should get in on the deal as they have had no qualms about using other controversial tactics. __________________ Coroner: My only question, is how did she come to have sex with the dead guy? Dante: She thought it was me. Coroner: What kind of convenience store do you run here?

01-11-2004, 08:53 PM	#24 (permalink)
I Brow Upright	Evolution Evolution is a random thing.

01-11-2004, 09:24 PM	#25 (permalink)
skysooner Registered User Location: Oklahoma	Absolutely ridiculous

01-11-2004, 05:59 PM	#22 (permalink)
Stiltzkin Junkie	I said some things here that I shouldn't have. The RIAA is funny. I wish them lots of luck in all their endeavors, I really do. Evolution is a good thing __________________ The most important thing in this world is love. Last edited by Stiltzkin; 01-11-2004 at 06:03 PM..

01-11-2004, 08:46 PM	#23 (permalink)
HamiC Insane Location: USA	I can't really claim to have a well-thought-out position on the RIAA, but I am fairly certain they are not doing anything that compare's to the evil done by Hitler's SS. Bad.....sure.....but let's not overstate the magnitude of the RIAA's misdeeds.....or more importantly.......trivialize those of the Nazi's.

01-12-2004, 08:05 AM	#27 (permalink)
clifclav absolute relativist Location: D.C.	that made me queasy. thanks for the link. I'm off to download some more. __________________ Neither rain , nor cold, nor dark of night shall.......ahh whatever, just get me a beer!

01-12-2004, 09:31 AM	#28 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	Though the means are really, really wrong, I understand the sentiment. Why shouldn't someone crackdown on bootleg selling on the streets? I mean, the cops ignore it (cough PAYOLA cough) so why shouldn't someone do something? Are we really that horrified that someone doesn't want their property stolen? __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

01-12-2004, 09:41 AM	#29 (permalink)
mb99usa Keep on rolling. It only hurts for a little while. Location: wherever I am	I am not a supporter of the RIAA but these are the people they should be going after. The tactics may not be right but it is the street-vendors selling bootlegs that are the ones really costing the recording companies money. If they can put a stop to the street level piracy maybe they will back-off a little on the file sharing once they see that they are not losing money from it. __________________ So, what's your point? It's not an attitude, it's a way of life.

01-12-2004, 09:57 AM	#30 (permalink)
synic213 Crazy Location: Sunny San Diego	Is this for real? This has the distinct tone of an "Onion" article, or something similar. I guess only the RIAA could do something so stupid and irrational.

01-12-2004, 10:36 AM	#31 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	And thier authority would come from where? This is worse than rent-a-cops. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

01-12-2004, 10:59 AM	#32 (permalink)
mb99usa Keep on rolling. It only hurts for a little while. Location: wherever I am	They should work through the local/state authorities. I do not condone the tactics, I just think they are focusing on the right people. __________________ So, what's your point? It's not an attitude, it's a way of life.

01-12-2004, 08:13 PM	#34 (permalink)
mingusfingers Psycho Location: uhhhh	Haha...and how much do they pay those guys to do that... __________________ Still Looking

01-12-2004, 08:50 PM	#35 (permalink)
KWSN green	Just like what Chuck D (of public enemy) said on the subject a while ago... "These scare tactics are pure Gestapo." It's true, that's exactly what they are. __________________ Your arms are broken!

01-13-2004, 01:38 AM	#36 (permalink)
bermuDa don't ignore this--> Location: CA	http://www.cyporiea.net/videos/RIAA_PSA.mpeg That is all. __________________ I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

01-13-2004, 01:52 AM	#37 (permalink)
Mr.Deflok Blood + Fire Location: New Zealand	This isn't true, and you know it, however the RIAA are a bunch of losers.

01-13-2004, 06:22 AM	#38 (permalink)
Iliftrocks Junkie Location: Near Raleigh, NC	Time to get a gun, huh? __________________ bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."

01-13-2004, 07:54 AM	#40 (permalink)
mb99usa Keep on rolling. It only hurts for a little while. Location: wherever I am	Thanks for backing me quadro. Part of the reason the RIAA jumped all over the download craze was because they could trace it back to the source relatively quickly and easily. Stopping the bootleggers and street vendors is more difficult because of how mobile these guys are. If the RIAA had more support and assistance in stopping the street level vendors and mass bootleggers the online world probably would not have been such a large target. __________________ So, what's your point? It's not an attitude, it's a way of life.