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Old 05-01-2003, 05:55 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Grammar: Were you taught standard grammar?

For those of you who learned english written and spoken, I was wondering if you were ever taught standard english rules. I graduated from private high school in 1986, and during my HS career there was a push to make sure that we were all literate in grammar and good composition. It started simply enough as a freshman with good sentence structure, sophomore with paragraph composition, junior with short essay (three paragraph or more,) and finally as a senior writing full papers.

The other weekend the wife and I took the Foreign Service Written Exam for the State Department. It was a very difficult test with several parts. Two parts focused on english, one standardized test on multiple choice problems of picking out the correct answers of composition and sentence structure. The second part was an actual essay IN PEN, selected from three different topics. Objective, take a position on one of the topics and provide supporting arguments. There was a scrap page for you to make notes and outlines, then several pages for your composition. Each test was 50 minutes long, and someone asked if they could actually write in pencil, and was told the purpose for pen is the "finality of the written word," to see how you write and think.

The article below is from March 1, 2003 Newsday, there is a quiz at the bottom. I got a few of them wrong and if there are any teachers here who can deconstruct the answers and explain them it would be handy for some of us.

http://www.newsday.com/features/ny-p...mepage%2Dpromo

Whatever Happened to Grammar?
Out of favor for years because the educational establishment deemed it too ‘restrictive,’ grammar education is making a comeback
By Paul Moses
Paul Moses is a regular contributor to Newsday.

May 1, 2003

The third-graders at PS 277 in Brooklyn twisted upward in their seats, hands fluttering on outstretched arms like flags atop a pole.

As teacher Janet Kennedy recognized them, they marched in turn to the blackboard, drawing a collection of lines and connecting dots that would be foreign to almost anyone who graduated from college in the past 20 years or so.

This was no arts-in-the-schools project, or even some beginning geometry lesson. The enthused 8-year-olds were learning to diagram sentences.

In teaching her students this long- lost skill, Kennedy was reviving the educational equivalent of a woolly mammoth. The educational establishment - the National Council of Teachers of English, along with many researchers and curriculum developers - long ago declared that any systematic teaching of grammar belonged to the Ice Age. In the past few decades, sentence diagrams - word maps that once helped teach parts of speech and other rules of syntax - have been shunned as if they were a cut of steak at a vegetarian banquet.

Studies from as far back as 1963 have told teachers that it is useless and even "harmful" to teach diagramming, or for that matter any formal lessons on grammar. Students, according to the studies, retained little from old-fashioned grammar lessons, which stole time better spent on reading and writing. What's more, they suggested that focusing on grammatical errors would inhibit the students' creativity. As a result, grammar textbooks were long ago trashed and teachers were instructed to deal with usage problems one on one, when there was time. College education programs gave short shrift to grammar - and so, some veteran teachers say, many teachers don't know it well themselves.

But grammar, once the meat and potatoes of any child's education, is back on the table. University administrators, fed up with the poor writing of incoming students, have pressed the College Board, a Manhattan-based, national nonprofit group, to include a section on writing and grammar on the SAT college admission test. The national movement to set "standards" in education by testing students' basic language and math skills at various levels has put more pressure on schools to teach students to write without errors in usage. And even the 75,000-member National Council of Teachers of English, which opposes formal instruction in grammar, has at least revived the issue by devoting the January issue of its monthly magazine to the topic of "revitalizing grammar."

"About 15 to 20 years ago, it became verboten to teach grammar at the high school level. At some schools they were absolutely forbidden to do so," said Judith Richman, who has taught English for 33 years in Smithtown high schools. "Now," she said, "people are talking about it again."

To Richman, that's good news. It never made much sense to her that teachers were supposed to discuss writing with students who were not taught the terms needed to identify their errors.

One sign of a shift is that Richman, dubbed the "grammar queen" by colleagues, has been teaching a course on grammar to fellow Smithtown educators. She doesn't blame them for not knowing grammar: "They didn't know it because they were never taught it."

Michael Southwell, retired chairman of the English department at York College in Queens, is on the same page. He says he believes one of the biggest obstacles to effective grammar instruction is that the teachers themselves have not been taught grammar adequately in education schools. "I think a few years down the road, we are going to discover this has been a catastrophe because no one's been paying attention to how to teach the teachers," said Southwell, co- author of the college textbook "Mastering Written English" (Prentice-Hall).

read the rest of the story...

A Grammar Quiz

Identify and correct the

grammatical error in each sentence.

1. The manager threw the team a party because of them breaking a two-week losing streak.

2. Will everyone pass in their homework?

3. Having snuck out of the service, the congregant didn't contribute to the offering.

4. Had I been ready, I could have went to the game early.

5. Winning the award was more then she had ever hoped.

6. That was information supposed to be heard only by Michael and myself.

7. The soldier could of looted the abandoned bank but resisted the temptation.

8. The decision was reached between my mother, my sister and me.

9. I read less books during the school year than in the summer.

10. I appreciated knowing him because he was different than most of my other friends.

11. Despite the prisoner's being under suicide watch, he hung himself.

12. She wished her partner was not so stubborn.

13. My niece wanted my sister and I to pick her up at the train station.

14. In accumulated sales he was far less successful than her.

15. I couldn't remember whom I had thought was more important.

Answers on next page

Compiled by high school English teacher

Judith Richman.

Answers

to grammar quiz

1. ...because of their breaking a two-week losing streak.

2. Will everyone pass in his homework?

3. Having sneaked out of the service....

4. ...I could have gone to the game early.

5. ...more than she had ever hoped.

6. ...heard only by Michael and me.

7. The soldier could have....

8. The decision was reached among....

9. I read fewer books....

10. ... he was different from most of my other friends.

11. ... he hanged himself.

12. She wished her partner were not so stubborn.

13. My niece wanted my sister and me....

14. ...he was far less successful than she.

15. I couldn't remember who....
Copyright © 2003, Newsday, Inc.
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Last edited by Cynthetiq; 05-01-2003 at 06:28 AM..
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Old 05-01-2003, 06:13 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Yes - I was taught standard grammar - though I don't remember it being in the third grade!

Two points I feel strongly about.
1. Proper grammar is less important then developing an arguement and being able to communicate it. Too often, I find people in the workforce who can neither express their opinion (because they are shy or otherwise unable) nor support it if they can get it out in the first place.

2. The United States educational system contains pupils of varying cultures. Many come from Spanish-speaking or other second-language homes. It can be especially frustrating to be so stringent with grammar around these students.

I can't imagine how many grammatical errors I just made in this one post. It IS important, don't get me wrong. But I feel its only important to those that are involved in PR, government, or high management. I rate the ability to communicate much more highly.

I'm certainly not a teacher and I'm not sure I helped answer any questions you posed, but its my feelings on the subject of teaching grammar.
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Old 05-01-2003, 06:15 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Oh, yeah, most word processors correct verb use and identify trouble sentences for the user. Grammar mistakes are often identified, making grammar less important then ever.
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Old 05-01-2003, 07:18 AM   #4 (permalink)
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deconstructing the quiz. ps. i'm not a english teacher, so these reasons are my *educated guesses*! but i did get the entire quiz right, minus one.

1. The manager threw the team a party because *of them* breaking a two-week losing streak.

In English you can't modify a personal pronoun. E.g., when you say "Richard talked to him wearing a hat.", you mean that richard wore a hat, not "him." When you say "Richard talked to the man wearing a hat," most likely you mean the man is wearing the hat. Therefore you can't say "them breaking a two-week losing streak."


2. Will everyone pass in *their* homework?

The word "everyone" is singular. E.g. you would say "Everyone is going to the party", not "Everyone are going to the party." therefore you must use a singular pronoun.


3. Having *snuck* out of the service, the congregant didn't contribute to the offering.

Whenever "have" is with a verb, you must use the past participle. "Snuck" is the simple past tense, "sneaked" is the past participle. Kind of tricky--you consider that for the verb "drink", the simple past is "drank" and the past participle is "drunk," so you could say "Having drunk four bottles of malt liquor, Harry's stomach strangled itself, ejecting mom's meatloaf." I think English and American conjugations of "sneak" are slightly different. i may have to do a little research.


4. Had I been ready, I could have *went* to the game early.

same as above. "Went" is simple past (ie, "I went to the game.") and "gone" is the past participle ("I had gone to the game.")


5. Winning the award was more *then* she had ever hoped.

ez, right?


6. That *was information* supposed to be heard only by Michael and *myself*.

I think the editors missed a mistake. Correctly, I think it should read "That information was supposed to be heard only by Michael and me."

The first correction is because "supposed to be heard" is not a modifying phrase--gramatically, I don't think it's anything.

The second correction: "myself" is a reflexive pronoun and requires that the subject refer to the same object as the pronoun. Eg, "I went there by myself" is correct. In this case, "information" is the subject, and "me" should be used.

7. The soldier could "of" looted the abandoned bank but resisted the temptation.

colloquial substitution of "of" for "have".

8. The decision was reached *between* my mother, my sister and me.

"Between" is used for two nouns, "among" for any number greater than two.

9. I read less books during the school year than in the summer.

because you can count books, "fewer" should be used instead of "less." "I ate less food during the school year" would be ok.

10. I appreciated knowing him because he was different *than* most of my other friends.

To use "than" in this case requires a comparative adjective. Ie, you could have said "...he was more different than..." since "more" is not there, it's just a regular old adjective phrase, so it takes "from", since it's the preposition that "different" takes.

11. Despite the prisoner's being under suicide watch, he *hung* himself.

When you hang something on a wall, that is different from being hanging a person. The two verbs have different conjugations.

12. She wished her partner was not so stubborn.

Any clause following the verb "wish" needs to be a subjuctive clause. (Subjunctive is the verb tense to express something that did not/is not/will not be expected to happen, but is being considered hypothetically. Eg, "I should have gone to the store.") For reasons beyond me, "were" is the past subjunctive third-person singular form.

13. My niece wanted my sister and *I* to pick her up at the train station.

"I" is a subject pronoun. Since your niece is the subject in this case, you should use the object pronoun "me" instead. (even though you are the one picking her up at the train station! because the sentence wouldn't sound right if you said "My sister wanted I to pick her up....")

14. In accumulated sales he was far less successful than *her*.

"Than" seems like a preposition that takes an object. However, in this case you are comparing "He" and "she". The two must agree in being either subjects or objects. (Other examples: The donkey rubbed him harder than her. The crossdresser wore more jewelry than she.)

15. I couldn't remember *whom* I had thought was more important.

This is tricky. "Whom" is the relative pronoun used for objects, while "who" is for subjects. In this case it seems that "whom" refers to the person that "I" had thought about, but actually "I had thought" is a modifier to the word "whom", and the phrase, stripped to the bare essense, is 'I couldn't remember whom was more important." Is this case, it's more clear that "whom" should be "who".

ADDENDUM: actually, I'm sure my reasoning is incorrect for 15. It seems to me now that "I had thought" doesn't modify "whom," and that the relative clause is really "whom I had thought was more important." However, If you make this into a regular sentence: "I had thought he was more important", it becomes clear that the pronoun (ie, "he") should be in subjective case (Since "I had thought him was more important" sounds wrong). Therefore "who" should be used instead of "whom".
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Old 05-01-2003, 07:38 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Now that that's over, here's my view: Learning grammar ought not be done simply because you want to be "correct" or because you want to be able to correct other people's grammar. The advantage of having a strong command of grammar is that it enables you to communicate your ideas unambiguously and concisely. Knowing grammar is like knowing which end of the knife is sharp, and knowing how much pressure you can exert on it. You can cut exactly what you need to cut out, and by using the maximum pressure the knife can take, you can do it with the fewest number of strokes. Similarly, people with a strong command of grammar can express thoughts more clearly and concisely. Those without such a command often have to repeat a point over and over to make themselves understood.

of course, you still need ideas to communicate. learning grammar does nothing in terms of making someone more clever. but grammar is very important, I think. To say that you should focus on good communication instead of grammar is like saying you should focus on musicality in playing an instrument instead of learning scales. It is *possible* to do, but knowing the fundamentals provides a very useful framework on which the higher-level skill can be built.

Finally, grammar can be corrected on a word processor for obvious mistakes, but a grammar check has yet to be invented that can take a muddled argument and make it clear. And even if that day did come when word processors could reconstruct paragraphs, grammar is still useful in conversation (though not as useful as it is in writing).
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Old 05-01-2003, 08:10 AM   #6 (permalink)
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We was taught the basics of grammar in elementary, more advanced of the basics in middle school, and us students retouched on it in high school.

It never failed to worry me that 75% of the students in my senior English class consistently got the daily grammar quizzes wrong. A good 50% of them wouldn't see anything wrong with the first sentence in this post.
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Old 05-01-2003, 08:38 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Although they were both born in Italy, my parents - holding university degrees - spoke English well, are avid readers, and pursued educational careers. My mom is a classically trained pianist and my father holds a PhD in Education. They spoke in correct standard English Grammar. That's what I learned naturally without being formally taught and before I entered school.
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Old 05-01-2003, 09:09 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I learned grammar when I was in elem. school and high school, but we didn't have to diagram sentences in HS. In college I had to take an English class and there was a lot of focus on grammar.
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Old 05-01-2003, 09:10 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Ya, I was taught all that grammar crap in the eighties. I don't remember much of it but I can put words together in sentences that make sense. My typing skills and spelling on the other hand suck.
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Old 05-01-2003, 09:39 AM   #10 (permalink)
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my wife majored in communications and linguistics... she constantly corrects my grammar.... and Azharen's too!
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Old 05-01-2003, 11:38 AM   #11 (permalink)
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It's very important to learn grammar. My English teacher felt it was very important to teach the finer qualities of grammar. It dramatically improved our writing because it allowed us to clearly state our ideas and opinions.

Although it's been years since I've sat in my desk for Ms. Grandon, I still remember her lessons, however poorly I apply them here.

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Old 05-01-2003, 11:39 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Yes, I was taught standard grammar. However, since I was raised in the South, the people who taught me grammar couldn't pronounce anything worth a shit.
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Old 05-01-2003, 11:58 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I was taught standard grammar in school, unfortunately because I am a first generation American, my parents having grown up only speaking Italian were unable to correct my poor grammar at home. Worse yet the most school either of my parents achieved was the equivalent of freshman or sophomore in High School. My spelling became horrendous. After studying the Italian language for over 8 years I’ve discovered that my speech patterns and the ways in which I arrange my sentences while talking are similar to the patterns used in Italian. Although it may sound wrong to the listener, when strictly translating the words, my sentences were arranged properly for Italian grammar. Honestly, my grammar is still very poor, but to my good fortune I now rely upon word processors to correct my grammar. I’ll even admit to typing my posts in a word processor and then transferring the final product to TFP, the same goes for my blog or even e-mail I send while at work.
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Old 05-01-2003, 12:45 PM   #14 (permalink)
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This text is by far the best IMO. It's even amusing to read in some cases



http://coba.shsu.edu/help/strunk/
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Old 05-01-2003, 03:25 PM   #15 (permalink)
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eye nevar payed attentuinnn N sk0ewl
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Old 05-01-2003, 07:29 PM   #16 (permalink)
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i wasn't taught anything of grammar in school, it just wasn't part of the curriculum. i learned it all from my parents.
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Old 05-01-2003, 10:04 PM   #17 (permalink)
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The only one I would object to is the claim that the third person plural pronoun "their" must not ever be used with the singular antecedent "everyone".

Quote:
Will everyone pass in their homework? - wrong
Quote:
2. Will everyone pass in *their* homework?

The word "everyone" is singular. E.g. you would say "Everyone is going to the party", not "Everyone are going to the party." therefore you must use a singular pronoun.
You'd have to be a true curmudgeon or pedant to jump down somebody's throat over this "mistake" in EVERY single circumstance.

Observe:

‘Everybody should marry as soon as they can do it to advantage.’ - Jane Austen

'A person can’t help their birth.' - William Makepeace Thackeray

‘Too hideous for anyone in their right mind to buy.’ - W.H. Auden

Here's a great article on the subject:

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/ling/stories/s546929.htm
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Old 05-01-2003, 11:09 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Back in my day Grammar was a seperate subject to English!

Atleast we knew what an apostrophe was in those days... today I see an apostrophe before every S. It sickens me to be quite frank...

"2 day's ago..."
"more bathroom's upstair's" (this one isnt made up, I saw it at a local hardware/bathroom/kitchen store *sigh* )

I see if more and more often everyday, do they just not teach it now???

I mean Christ! Why do people do it?? Are they taught to put an apostrophe before every S in sight??

Please could somebody englighten me on this...
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Old 05-02-2003, 12:25 AM   #19 (permalink)
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PataQ... in my case, the excuse would be that I'm from the Netherlands, where we use the apostrophe in very different ways than you do.

And yes, I was taught Dutch grammar in elementary school, and English, German and French grammar in highschool. It was part of the standard curriculum.

English was mostly self-taught, though, with me watching US sitcoms and reading English books...
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Old 05-02-2003, 01:44 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I'm aware of the Dutch stance on the apostrophe, you're excused

Ik haat jo for bringing it up though, because others like you'll bring it up :P
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Old 05-02-2003, 02:41 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Not only was I taught grammar... it was every year from first through fifth grade. We used a book called "Warners English Composition" which was heavy into diagraming sentences.

After fifth grade, our English classes were broken into Reading, Literature, and a writing course. Can you imagine have 3 classes of English per day?
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Old 05-02-2003, 05:06 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
PataQ... in my case, the excuse would be that I'm from the Netherlands, where we use the apostrophe in very different ways than you do.

And yes, I was taught Dutch grammar in elementary school, and English, German and French grammar in highschool. It was part of the standard curriculum.

English was mostly self-taught, though, with me watching US sitcoms and reading English books...
well... Bob has his opinion...
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Old 05-02-2003, 07:29 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I'm going to print these on A4 sheets and carry them folded in my wallet.

I'm going to stick them onto every sign, bill board and cover every orifice with them.

You will learn.
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Old 05-02-2003, 09:11 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I'm relearning now. It should have been part of English 101 in college. There's a great book called "Woe is I" that is funny and easy to read and understand.
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Old 05-02-2003, 09:48 AM   #25 (permalink)
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I didn't really learn grammar until college in my business writing class. I couldn't imagine writing an important letter or other business document and having incorrect grammar. Not to say that mine is perfect all the time, it all depends on the importance of the document whether I will take the time to revise and rewrite.
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Old 05-02-2003, 12:51 PM   #26 (permalink)
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i can remember teaching my supervisor how to diagram a sentence 20 years ago, and he was my age. when did schools take a break from teaching grammar and composition (read basic literacy)? we spent a lot of time on diagrams in seventh grade.
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Old 05-02-2003, 02:26 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I quit high school early in my sophomore year of high school. I have three college degrees and one year of law school - my grammar is terrible - as you can probably tell. There is nothing worse than coming off dumb on paper and it is very east to do.
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Old 05-02-2003, 02:56 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I have never really learned proper grammar. Anything I know about grammar I picked up from learning a foreign language. Next year, however, I get to take a wonderful pedagogy class on the teaching of grammar.

As an English major, I am constantly asked to edit the papers of friends. The biggest problem I see in papers--even papers by other English majors--is sentence fragments. Fragments drive me batty.

The other thing that drives me nuts doesn't necessarily have anything to do with bad grammar. BAD SPELLING DRIVES ME CRAZY. It's as if people are too lazy to spell correctly. How hard is it to open up a dictionary and look up a word to know if you've spelled it right? How hard is it to copy and paste what you've written into Word and run the spellcheck?

Okay, I think I'm done. Did I spell everything right?
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Old 05-02-2003, 03:46 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Cynthetiq

Why were you taking the exam?
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Old 05-02-2003, 03:48 PM   #30 (permalink)
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i never learnt English grammar, but i spent a bloody long time im high school learning Latin grammar.

hm, it should also be noted that grammer in English, and any other language is always evolving and changing too.

For instance, only in some countries do double negatives equal positives nowadays.

Last edited by Loki; 05-02-2003 at 03:53 PM..
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Old 05-02-2003, 06:29 PM   #31 (permalink)
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not only was i taught Grammar from year 3, but i was taught at a Grammar School.

Year 7 latin really sucked.

good point about the living language, Loki.
its changing and evolving just like it always has.
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Old 05-02-2003, 09:11 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by 4thTimeLucky
Cynthetiq

Why were you taking the exam?
The Foreign Service Written Exam is a test for becoming an officer working for the State Department on several different career paths. The wife and I have both lived overseas at some point in our lives and we'd like to do it again. We'd get paid for living overseas and travellingthe world.

From the State Dept website:

Foreign Service Officers (FSOs) advocate American foreign policy, protect American citizens, and promote American business interests throughout the world. They staff our Embassies, consulates and other diplomatic missions devoted to strengthening peace, stability, and prosperity. Their perceptiveness, dedication, and creativity drive the formulation and achievement of American foreign policy objectives.

Many FSOs have liberal arts or business degrees; some have advanced degrees in specialized areas ranging from law to the social and hard sciences. Knowledge of a foreign language is not a requirement to join the Foreign Service; you will receive language training required for overseas assignments. However, the State Department welcomes applicants who have foreign language competence, especially in Slavic, Middle Eastern, and Asian languages. Each FSO must choose one of five career tracks (or, "cones"): Management/Administrative Affairs, Consular Affairs, Economic Affairs, Political Affairs, or Public Diplomacy. Increasingly, transnational issues such as the environment, science and technology; the global struggle against diseases such as AIDS; international law enforcement cooperation and counternarcotics trafficking; counterproliferation and international action against trafficking in persons have gained priority among American foreign policy objectives. This shift has opened fascinating new avenues in which FSO's are making major contributions on the cutting edge of foreign policy. Serving in Washington, DC, officers in all tracks implement, and thus also participate in developing, our foreign policies.

What awaits you in the Foreign Service is the opportunity of a lifetime to get to know foreign languages and cultures by living them, and to make a difference in the lives of American and foreign citizens.

FOREIGN SERVICE ASSIGNMENTS

After an initial orientation and training period in Washington (usually between three months and one year), newly hired Foreign Service Officers are assigned overseas. During their first two assignments (each of two years duration), officers hold a variety of positions in order to demonstrate their qualifications for tenure as career Foreign Service Officers. As part of this process, officers early in their careers perform at least one year of consular work overseas and are frequently assigned to at least one hardship post.

Hardship posts are those where living conditions are considered more difficult than in the United States. Such factors as climate, the quality of local health care, crime rate, pollution levels, and availability of spouse employment opportunities are used in deciding which posts are designated hardship; in general terms, most locations outside of Western Europe, Canada, and Australia are considered hardship posts. Employees serving at hardship posts receive a “hardship” differential of between five and twenty-five percent of salary, depending on the severity of the hardship. For example, in 2003, Asuncion, Paraguay is a 5% hardship differential post; Bucharest, Romania is a 15% post; and Kigali, Rwanda is a 25% post.

Assignments are made based on a bidding process. From a list of current openings, employees submit a list of desired assignments. After close consultation with the employee, the Bureau of Human Resources then selects an appropriate posting. Personal as well as professional factors are taken into account in making assignments, but the needs of the Service remain paramount.
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Old 05-03-2003, 10:27 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Cynthetiq

I am about to start a similar line of work so thought that might be the reason, but the fact that you and your wife took it surprised me. The odds of being accepted for the British FCO are 100 to 1. The odds of a couple being accepted will therefore be 10,000 to 1. That isn't to sound negative, I don't know your situation, I merely found it surpirising. But really good luck to you. I've always wondered how many people on TFP work for their respective foreign services, so hearing your story (well, a tiny part of it!) is uplifting. Again, good luck.
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Old 05-03-2003, 03:08 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by 4thTimeLucky
Cynthetiq

I am about to start a similar line of work so thought that might be the reason, but the fact that you and your wife took it surprised me. The odds of being accepted for the British FCO are 100 to 1. The odds of a couple being accepted will therefore be 10,000 to 1. That isn't to sound negative, I don't know your situation, I merely found it surpirising. But really good luck to you. I've always wondered how many people on TFP work for their respective foreign services, so hearing your story (well, a tiny part of it!) is uplifting. Again, good luck.
odds of one of us getting accepted is higher than just one of us taking the exam.

I've been trying to corporate route to no avail, next if the government route, and if that doesn't work then I'll just have saved enough money and we'll just pick up and move ourselves.
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Old 05-03-2003, 07:31 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I'm from Kentucky so probably not.
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Old 05-03-2003, 08:03 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I was taught grammar unsuccessfully in public schools until high school. I went to a private (religious, and not by choice) high school and they were hell bent on us all learning proper grammar. For the most part, I would say our nations bad grammar is due to the fact that we speak more often then we write, so we are not as interested in structure.

I still do not know when to use who vs. whom however. I just use whatever one sounds best in the given context.
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Old 05-03-2003, 08:05 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Re: Grammar: Were you taught standard grammar?

Quote:
Originally posted by Cynthetiq
. It started simply enough as a freshman with good sentence structure, sophomore with paragraph composition, junior with short essay (three paragraph or more,) and finally as a senior writing full papers.
I was taught four sentences to a paragraph, although, I went to HS a decade after you.
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