Bill O'Rights

There is a part of me that would like to stand with numist, gakface, SecretMethod70 and lordjeebus. Really, I would. But while I <b>do</b> believe in "innocent until proven guilty", and it's true that I, myself, have seen no evidence of any wrongdoing by M.J., I cannot help but assume that, given yesterdays search warrant of Neverland, and today’s issuance of a warrant for the arrest of Michael Jackson...yeah...they found something.
All I can really say is that this is such a shame, on so many levels. I believe that M.J. <i>means</i> well, but even though he may be a child at heart, he is still in possession of a man's body, and is subject to certain...urges, shall we say? If the allegations prove to be true, then damn his so-called "friends", his handlers and anyone else in his little entourage, for allowing this to escalate to this point. So, how 'bout it Liz? Howza 'bout it Liza? What do you know, and when did you know it?

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numist

Macheath:
Macheath, the tittering tabloid BS is a result of people doing their jobs. The media will continue to exploit this until something better comes along, OJ Simpsons media hype lasted over one long slow news year.

Batman976:
Yes, they needed probable cause - an insane manchild saying that he sleeps with children is enough probable cause for any police officer, I would think.
Charging him isnt necessarily up to the police, the charges (I believe) were brought by the parents of the child involved that says he was molested by MJ.
From our standpoint, it is one word against another, and we are getting it through the media, which can't be trusted.

Innocent until proven guilty.

[edit: edited out [quote=author] tags, apparently UBB Code isnt fully supported?]

Cynthetiq

There will be some spin happening on the tubes this weekend from the Home Office... tune in to see the spinmeisters at work.

IMHO, I don't have enough information but hearsay. I'm going to sit back and watch the evidence and due process go through. The media has already made up it's mind, the masses find him guilty, now let's see the courts decision.

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Bloodslick

I am angered by the constant accusations levelled against a man who has proven time and time again how much he loves all people, especially children, and who has never been convicted of any crime. Why does anyone think that, after having the childhood he went through, he would inflict any kind of similar harm on other children? This man amassed a vast fortune, and spent a very large portion of it turning his home into an amusement park that from time to time plays host to large groups of underprivileged youths. Did none of you watch the other special, where Jackson showed footage of his interviewer being about as two-faced as humanly possible? The man who interviewed Jackson continually acted as if he respected and admired his subject, then chopped up the footage he had taken and presented it out of context for the viewing pleasure of millions of bloodthirsty American and British citizens. I am disgusted to see that so many of you are among that eager group.

punx1325

I'm still in shock I knew he was a sicko and did this stuff, but I didn't know he slept with the Home Alone kid. It now all makes sense why his career failed.

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tommyboy

I have never liked this freak anyways. If he is guilty I sure hope he gets what he deserves.

numist

Some of the judgement shown here has been quite disturbing in an evolutionary place such as this.

Bloodslick brings up a lot of facts that many havent brought up previously, his post is worth reading twice.
Maybe three times.

The media does the cut-to-fit trick often, and if you look at the bowling for columbine movie, the same thing happened (this was noted in another thread, quoted below)

Moral of the story: the media may show you what happened, but its what they omit or reorder that kills us.

For more compelling, yet non-media evidence, see this link.

crewsor

Don't know if he is guilty or not, but I do believe he needs some serious mental help.
Any parent who would dangle his own child over a railing ,who knows how many stories up, is in my opinion capable of doing things normal people wouldn't consider. This would include molesting children.
Some people, possibly M.J. included, believe there is nothing wrong with Man - Child sex. So in his mind it may be innocent, while to me or you it is the perverted molestation of children.
Add to that his probable feeling of invincibility that comes with being incredibly wealthy, and you may indeed have some one who thinks they can do as they wish with impunity.
I only hope he is not guilty, because I hate to think of the damage he may have done to innocent children. If he is a child molesting perv. I hope they find irrefutable evidence, so he can't buy his way out of this mess.
If he has been doing this for years, and getting away with it there is no punishment too severe.

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Conclamo Ludus

I cannot say he is guilty. He certainly has his issues, like everyone else, but unlike everyone else he has had the ability to keep himself sequestered by his money. How disturbing would it be if Neverland Ranch turned out to be a Hansel and Gretel house, whether conciously or subconciously. This is already a media circus, darker and dizzier, than Neverland Ranch itself.

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WhoaitsZ

Wee. Some others agree to holding off until we see facts (or what we believe are facts). The guy has had some serious shit in the home until he moved out and then the drama never stopped. Is it an excuse? No. But it is very, very obvious that people who experience abuse (especially molestation) as a child tend to grow up to act out some very odd fantasy life he wanted and never had. The sleeping with kids is fucking weird to me. I do not see how it is morally wrong. If he touches, okay, we have a big problem. If he has had sex with them, for all I care he deserves to die. I have little to no remorse for molestors, yet I never can forget a guy I saw years ago on a news show who had problems craving sexual encounters with kids. He hated it and asked for psyche help. He is fighting (or was at the time, I’m unsure right now) the demons as hard as he can.

As for if this makes me happy? If I find he had kiddy porn or sex with kids then I’ll be happy that a bad guy has been stopped. Very. But the sittiuation is so fucked up that I simply cannot feel happy. Bleh.

And before someone asks if I’d feel the same if it were not MJ, yes I think I would. Status means little to me.

…. If he did commit such atrocities maybe he’ll be put in prison with the guy who killed the bishop!

Baldrick

I'm of two minds, and in neither one of them do I think this is a good thing at all.

Either Michael is innocent, and is the victim of an overzealous media who have tried and convicted him in front of millions of armchair jurors, and ruined his life simply because he is eccentric.

Or Michael actually did do this, which means the years and years of abuse he has given to who knows how many children, could have been stopped with the first allegations a decade ago.

Either one of these scenario's makes me sick to my stomach.

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raeanna74

I'm just tired of hearing about him. I've hardly paid attention to anything he's produced in his defence let alone the media's accusations. Let the police and the courts do their job. If this is all true imagine the publicity that these kids have had to endure and that will follow them all their lives. I think the media is causing almost as much harm as if this "abuse" of his is true. If it is true then they are double the harm to the children. Forget about it.

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quadro2000

I'm so surprised how many people have deemed him guilty without one proven charge against him.

I also find it interesting that this case appeared on the same day his newest record was released. If you think that's a coincidence, you should probably wake up. I'm not saying he's guilty or he's innocent. What I AM saying is that a hell of a lot of people are against Michael Jackson without having a shred of evidence.

As for me, I'm not saying he's sane. But I haven't lived his life and experienced the things he's experiencing. So I don't think I'm in a place to judge. And I certainly don't feel good about this. If anything, I feel sad that everybody is hounding on it when there are abusers out there beating and having sex with children every day - and they go scot free because who cares if they're not famous?

Why don't we wait and see what he has to say, and what a court has to say.

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Tophat665

Alert the media. I agree with Art, which means I agree with BoCo.

Innocent until proven guilty, but if ever a man gave the world probable cause to believe him guilty ahead of trial,, Michael would be that man. If it turns out that he is guilty of more than sleeping in the same bed and getting into the tub to bathe his children (things I have done at times), then I'd like to feel a little sorry for him, but if he does get off, it will almost certainly have to do more with lawyering than truth.

So I feel a sense of vindication that a, not necessarily dangerous sexual predator, but certainly a fellow who was going beyond the pale if finally in line for comeuppance. In fact, when I read this this morning, the exact words out of my mouth were, "'Bout fuckin' time."

Not the place to say this, but that is one slick new icon you have there, Art. Kind of spaghetti western hired gun look. Most diggable.

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ARTelevision

As I indicated, I was surprised at my reaction to this story and I thought I'd be as honest as possible about my feelings. As you know, I don't talk about my feelings much. But this one strikes deep.

Here's how it looks so far. You'll recall, I did put the statement about the legal presumption of innocence in the thread starting post. Of course, that is the correct judgement to make at this time - speaking rationally.

All of the feelings expressed here have their validity in human terms. And they amount to a fascinating reflection of our hearts and minds. Thanks for that. You did convince me to make the thread title more of an opening - even though I am sticking with my original post.

Beyond that, if I would want to clarify one thing, it would be that to those feel this way, the admissions he has already made are simply unacceptable in human terms. Some of us - me included - do not accept the proposition that a 45-year-old man can sleep with an unrelated child in any healthy way - his protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.

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Fremen

I will wait to make my mind up about his innocence or guilt when I have more information.

In the meantime, an update from CBS has them postponing MJs' scheduled special 'til a conclusion to these allegations has been made.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031119/nyw187_1.html

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docbungle

G_Whiz said it all. What more can be said?

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mystmarimatt

I agree with Numist on this one. It's such a tragic, tragic thing that has happened to this man who was so talented, that he slowly whittled his life away. I won't presume to say whether he's innocent or guilty, because i don't know the facts, but the way he is portrayed by the media, how we ourselves view him, as well as his often peculiar behavior, it doesn't surprise me that it has come to this.

But it also saddens me that so many of you would immediately jump to conclusions and condemn the man without evidence. a visceral feeling you get about something he said on tv, and taken somewhat out of context is pretty shoddy evidence in the first place

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bobw

It is not only a good thing... it is simply the right thing !!!

hunnychile

Take him down! And now, because he IS a pedophile and he needs to be stopped. Why keep letting those with money and fame mess up the young and get away with it? If you say, "Well, he had a sad childhood, that's such bullshit...we've all had sad childhoods... but do we get away with defiling little kids?"

NO, send him away for life. He deserves what he gets. Period.

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hunnychile

Big Question of all time (at least here)

WHO gets to keep the bail money?

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RemyLebeau97

I hope they finally put this dude behind bars, he's had so many chances to do right and has fucked them all up. Am I the only one that can see that this guy is a fuckin nut case?? Lock hiz ass up and throw away the key, Mike's days are numbered.

GakFace

Simply here to debate, mind you. Now personally so many people seem ready to convict him for sleeping with children. In IRC today someone pointed out that he invites children to his house, and the parents don't know him. Something along those lines at least. Anyways, my point is this. If parents are sending their kids over to a stranger's house, why are we so ready to convict the stranger? Isn't it the parents that we should be more concerned about?

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Bloodslick

Perhaps not more concerned about, but convicting as accomplices if the allegations are proven true.
Did your parents never take you on vacations? Were you always so large that you never had to be lifted over the railing to see something? (Funny, I used to ask for it. I wonder how sick I am.) As a healthy adult, was there ever a time that you felt you could not confidently lift fifteen pounds?

santafe5000

Well Martha and Scott Peterson just got run off the front page. Now we will have this case shoved in our faces for the next year. It is sad that this story lead the news tonite and not the Bush trip/speech today in Britain. Can't wait to see what shows up on SNL.

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Bloodslick

santafe5000, you should have expected as much. We have had nearly four years to tire of hearing about M. Bush's antics. Don't expect to hear about him again until election campaigns truly get into full swing.

OFKU0

I coundn't give a rats ass if he is innocent or guilty. I don't live my life thinking about what happens or doesn't happen to him or anyone else I don't know.

The topic sure does sell alot of ad space and profit for the evil and dreaded mass media creatures who prey among us though doesn't it?.

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WhoaitsZ

i wonder if Fox will have a show in twenty years where the truly popular people (GWB, MJ, Martha Stewart, Paris Hilton, Eric ? Robertson) will get to beat each other up

while i don't see all the wrongs of the sleeping arrangements - he knew better and so the parents. unacceptable now.

Phaenx

Whatever gets that retarded Scott Peterson trial off the TV.

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merkerguitars

Yeah he does have some screws lose...but it's not like you can not expect it with the way his life was as a child...its was terribly messed up and he turned out messed up. I wouldn't doubt that he has done anything messed up with any kids, but who am i to point fingers at.....i'm sure none of us knows what he exactly did.....the court trial will be very interesting......well his image is now offically ruined if he did do anything sick....if he does need money though i will buy all the rights to the beatles songs for $1.....

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hilbert25

I think he is rather messed up, but I will not judge him until I have heard some facts. This could be the crucible, it could be an extortion attempt, it could be someone wanting attention, or it could be that he's a predator and deserves to spend his time in an asylum. I do know that jail would be a death sentence, and I would not wish that on anybody.

anleja

I think it is interesting how too much fortune and fame for too long can practically destroy a man in so many ways.

It makes me not want to play the lottery. To have all that money and power, with no boundaries? With people kissing your ass your entire life? No wonder he is so screwed up. Micheal Jackson is the insane creation to the media's mad scientist experiment.

Wait, did my wording make sense? Hope so.

WhoaitsZ

what freaks me out most is how we (i'm not innocent) build gods and absolutely delight in bringing them down.

rainheart

I didn't bother to read all of the replies because this doesn't interest me too much, no offense.

However I want to make one point regarding him being thrown in prison: most likely, they will not insert him with the rest of the prison population- child molesters are so low on the convict ladder that if people know that a convict has comitted rape or molested a child, they will try to find any excuse to kill him at the slightest whim.

XenuHubbard

Any normal person would have been put away a long time ago.

Pedophiles generally don't go for insanity. At least not the organized ones. Their lobbying consists mainly of "what is the right to say no worth if the kid doesn't have a right to say yes?" and infiltrating the homo lobby.

To me, no matter if MJ molested those kids or not, he's admitted to doing improper things with them. I'm not one of those people who freak out over a parent sitting in a sauna with their kids, but he's been over the limit already. With other people's children.

Yeah, he had a tragic childhood. But when the circle is closing, and victim becomes perpetrator, keeping things rolling, then my "poor you" changes very quickly into a "fuck you".

There are explanations, but no excuses. And people who hurt kids lose their humanity and all privileges that comes with it, in my eyes.

We're talking about people willing to destroy a kids life for half an hour of sexual gratitude.

So, for Michael Jackson, maybe he just likes kids. 12 year-old kids. A lot of them. When they're 12. And not after that. Maybe he doesn't molest them. Who knows. But he's still doing things with them that would cause social services to take away the kids of anyone here, and rightfully so.

I will not waste any sympathy on him. He loves kids, he says. He would never hurt a child, he says. Well, him and the rest of NAMBLA.

I don't really care what happens to him. As long as he never gets to be close to another kid again.

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taog

Lets all take a trip down memory lane.


First of all, ever since the beginning all michael jackson wanted was to make the wold a better place. Hence the song, make the world a better place.

Michael Jackson from day one was a very kind and gental person, and everyone had lost sight of that because of his weirdness. His first friend was a fucking garaff, how could you not be weird? He never had any real friends, and no one here knows what that is like. The only people who were close to him beat him and broke up and were just as fucked up as him because of an insane father.

Everyone knows all this stuff happened, but what did he still want to do? He wanted to make the world a better place.

Why do we always have to assume that Michael Jackson is sitting here molesting these children when he says he sleeps in the same bed as them? Look at everything he did in the past. Look at how many countries he visited, and how many lives he saves by giving those people hope, and giving people money in other countries to they can buy food. How many people did he actually give touch in a good, positive way. How many of these people are now great and alive because of this one man. He has made the world a much better place, we just can't see it because we are sitting in our houses blinded by the starvation that happens overseas. He's seen it all first hand, which i'm sure didn't have a positive effect on who MJ is these days.

This boys family was supposedly given a plan ticket and a life over in the good olde US or A, because of michael jackson. If the reporter is right on who this family and little boy is (which they probably aren't right on who it is) he basically saved this family. If this family is just a bunch of BS, which i personally hope to god they are, they should be punnished for putting all of this on a person who has done so much good for the world.

I do think that michael jackson is living in his own little child-man world. Hell, if calling your ranch neverland doesn't point at that, i don't know what does.

I can also see that he loves children, and always has, and always has wanted to help them out. I honestly think that his intensions are good with children, and if they aren't he should be punnished accordingly, i agree with that, but i don't know if you could convince me that michael jackson, who did so much good ,would actually do something that would harm a child.

Some people on here have said things like, 'he shouldn't be harming these children by making them like him' are way off. He is who he is because of the lack of childhood he had. He's giving children a childhood dream by creating a huge theme park for them to hang out at.

I've noticed that people also assume that he was guilty because he settled the last case out of court. Do you realise what kind of an impact something like that would have on record sales? I'm sure it already had an impact on record sales, so i'm sure he just wanted to get the damn thing out of there so he could continue living his life. Whether guilty or not, anything like this will impact their record sales. This doesn't fit into the 'any publicity is good publicity' category. Since the family did settle out of court, i can only assume that it's more likely that nothing happened sexually between the child and jackson. Like someone said before me, if you had a kid, and you honestly thought that someone molested your child, you would want them behind bars, and i'm sure you would get a shit load of money aswell.

Also, how much money was it? I keep hearing different amounts on the news. What's up with that? If it was actually settled and everything with the courts (they would need to know for legal purposes) wouldn't the total amount be known? Or was there even a transfer of money? How do we even know?

Another thing i hate about the news. I saw on shitty ass ABC that there was this lady talking about michael jackson and all his weirdness. She said straight up that he molested the last kid in the case 10 years ago. She then went on to say that his face is falling off. Sure it's pretty fucked up, but isn't that the whole deal that they said before too? Supposedly his nose was falling off during a show, his 30th (or 25th) anaversary show or whatever. Well, i watched that show. His nose was not falling off. He was holding the mic from the headset closer to his face so you could hear him better.

There are so many different assumed stories and acusations against michael jackson that it makes me sick. Sure, i'll admit that the guy needs to seek some professional help somewher, but there are so many lies and stories about him that make him look so bad.

It's like the whole thing with joe demasio and mickey mantle (i think that's who it was) where they were competing to beat babe ruths home run record, and joe got bad publicity because he didn't really talk to the press, he just wanted to play ball. I think it's somewhat of the same case here with jackson.

I would be surprised if he is convicted.

I basically grew up watching michael jackson change. My mother and aunt were already into him back in the day, and we listened to him all the time. Any new records taht came out, we knew and had. I used to wear the red leather jacket he had on in thriller when i was a kid. We used to watch moonwalker on a weekly basis. Basically i feel like i know the guy on a level. I wouldn't say i 'know' him personally, but he sure doesn't seem like the type to do something that would harm a kid.

Coming from someone who has followed michael jackson from when I was about 10, i would have to assume that he is innocent, based on what i know and have heard about the guy.

However, if i had kids, i wouldn't leave them at neverland without me. Though, how many parents would, no matter who owned it. I think in a situation like that, the parents probably knew michael jackson fairly well. I think the parents just want money. 25 million dollars will make people do crazy things.

If it does end, i think it will end when the kid calls jackson. I believe in cases like this, the kid calls the accused and talks to them with authorities present. That 'should' bring the truth out.


Anyway, last note from my ramble. Jackson has done more good for this world and the starving people on it than 99.999999999% of americans/canadians/anyone with more than 1 dollar worth of assets out there. I fear that if these accusations are wrong, and jackson is not guilty, it will still harm him and the majority of the people in the world will think he's a child molester, even if he isn't. What does that do to someone's heart who has done, in his mind, nothing but good for people?

Jackson does have issues, but we do nothing but feed them.

Mehoni

IMHO, innocent until proven guilty.

It looks like the rumour-mill made a fortune here.. soon you're gonna hear "he eats babeis to stay healthy" and a ton of crap stuff because people WANT to belive it.

Even if he never did anything, this will haunt him and have probably scarred him for life.

Please people, be more critical to what the media says. Unless you can produce evidence, don't say "he's a pedophile". YOU don't know that.

Do you realize that everytime a child that has met MJ says "he molested me" this big media circus will take place, regardless of the truth?

I just feel sorry for him.. and don't even like/adore/love him or his music.

No to witch hunts, yes to evidence. Weird doesn't equal guilty. (http://www.wm3.org)

Edit: Fixed some spelling errors.

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taog

good job Mehoni. You just put what i had to say in like one paragraph.



I also wanted to add on the whole MJ sleeping with kids.

A lot of these kids knew him very well and hung out with him on a daily basis. A lot of them looked at him as family, as a friend, as someone they could trust. Look at what's his name from home alone. He basically had no family (from what i've heard). MJ was like family to him. If you didn't sometimes sleep in the same bed, or even on a couch or something with your parents when you were 12 or 13, you simply weren't in a family that was close in that way.

We also don't know what kind of bed this is that jackson is sleeping in. For all we know, the bed is 100 feet by 100 feet. Jackson does live in a totally different world, i think we can all agree on that. Just because he said that he has slept in the same bed as kids who weren't his own, but may view him as family, we don't know that, doesn't mean he's planning or even hoping that he would get to do anything sexual with him.

This whole sleeping in the same bed thing is blown up and only looks sick because of the way it's portrayed.

I used to have sleepovers at the karate i went to. It would be me, all the kids in my class, and the instructor who was about 35 at the time. Things like that go on all the time. We all slept in the same room, on the same wooden floor.. hehe.

That instructer did get convicted of sexual assult though, which doesn't help, but they aren't all like that!!! And it sure didn't happen during one of the sleepover things. And it wasn't on a minor! It was simply because he touched a girl near her ass and said use this muscle.

Anyway, the media is playing a damn good mind trick on a lot of people on these boards in regards to this case.

JoenOcoee

First off, I work for a large mental health company and before this I taught problem kids of all kinds, and I have to shout out loud once again, "WHAT DIP-SHIT UNDESERVING MORALY DELINQUINT PARENTS WOULD ALLOW THIER CHILD TO BE ALONE WITH JACKSON? I feel as though the parents of the abused kids should be brought up on child endangerment charges. If a parent wanted to take thier family to Neverland and hang out for a day, great. But to let your kid get into a bed with any adult outside of your most immediate family is unexcusable.

Secondly, when people use MJ's upbringing to defend his actions, they are enabling him. He has never been held accountable for his actions. I do not believe that Michael's upbringing in the late 60's and early 70's was remotely as 'horriffic' as it is portrayed. Why don't any of MJ's siblings display the same deviant behavior patterns? How can people allow MJ's 10 years of estranged childhood outweigh 30 years of adult actions?

Lastly, I must confess that a part of me feels God Awful bad/sorry/??? for Jackson. He's a guy that has such severe identity issuses that he literaly had a new body built for himself. He hasn't had a truly private moment in over 20 years. I doubt he has meet more than a handful of people in 20 years who have not either hated him or worshiped him. And as of Yesterday the ability for him to have a fair and speedy trial vanished.

In the end, this whole Jackson fiasco will waste thousands of hours and millions of dollars for all envolved.

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