analog

I wasn't trying to tell anyone how to act, I was providing an example in which your choice to automatically exclude violence as an option at the onset of conflict can cause you to falter, or leave yourself vulnerable.

And now I'll answer your question directly: if I could take the guy, I'd tell him to fuck off and keep walking. If he yelled after me, I'd keep walking, staying quiet. If, however, he followed and made more of an ordeal out of it, I'd lay him out. He's a scumbag, and committed sexual battery. Maybe he just needs to be taught a lesson. Lots of people need one good "awakening" to set them straight. And you know what, if that's 1% of all scumbags, then I still have a shot at making a difference.

If I had no prayer of kicking the guy's ass, I'd ignore him and keep walking, away from him, to a safe place. If he followed, and tried to get physical, i'd do my best to defend the girl. I may not win, but I'll sure as hell put up a long enough fight for the girl to get to a safe place. Really the only difference between whether or not I could kick his ass is that if i could, I'd PROBABLY at least talk some shit to him first. I can't tell you I wouldn't, I'm sure i'd be lying.

I don't have a super ego, I don't think I can beat up anyone I want, i don't WANT to beat people up. I'm a fairly religious person and abide by basic principles of decency every day of my life. I'm 22, and have been in exactly 2 fights. One was in middle school (age 13 or so) over something as stupid as a game we used to play on the bus gone wrong, and the other was because a guy in a club was harrassing the girlfriend (the girl is also a VERY good friend of mine) of a guy who's a friend I consider my brother. He confronted the guy, saying, "Hey, she didn't come here with you, and she didn't ask you to bother her. She told you no, take it like a man and walk away, ok?" He's a great guy in many respects, and is also VERY protective of his girl. By the time I hear him get 3 words in, I've already gotten her behind me, and i'm standing just next to/behind my friend. He finishes what he was saying, and the guy sucker punches him in the face. My friend staggered back, almost falling, but I snuck around him and punched the guy in HIS face. He hit the floor. The room we were in was the techno room, which has weird angled walls, so no one could see us where we were. No one else came to help. He muttered something about "you son of a bitch" and I ignored it, and told my friend to take her away and out of the club, i was just going to stand there a minute and make sure he could get out without the guy attackign them again. And then he said, as he stood up, "looks like she's looser than an old whore anyway." I put him back on the floor, I kicked him in his crotch, and then I twisted his arm behind his back. At that point, I realized things could only go worse from there, so I simply said, "don't be an asshole." and left.

My friend was sucker-punched because he didn't consider violence as an option, and left his guard down. If I wasn't there, who knows what could have happened to him and his girl?

I still feel bad for going as far with it as I did, but only because I let my emotion override my reasoning, which was telling me I could go to jail, not because I'm remorseful of my actions.

I absolutely believe in violence as a last resort ONLY, in EVERY case, but to deny it as an option will only serve to partially blind me and blunt the sharp edge of my abilities.

Since you asked, I'll provide another example. Most people who are shot in their homes during a break-in are shot because they falter, and are vulnerable at the point of decision.

Part of safety training for firearms is that you should NEVER point a gun at anyone unless you specifically intend to shoot them- not to threaten them, not to intimidate them, but to shoot them. These people are shot in their own homes because they make a choice to pick up a gun they keep for self-defense. These people are shot because at the moment of decision, they will foolishly raise their gun, and their life-long unwillingness to accept violence as an answer will cause a delay in pulling the trigger. The other person has no such delay and, seeing the gun pointed, will shoot you first. If you go through life always refusing one portion of a thought process, that part WILL FAIL YOU when it is supposed to help you, because you've trained yourself to ignore it.

I didn't even really mean for this to be about violence, because it holds true for anything. Why limit yourself? You can only learn more from thoroughly analyzing all aspects of a situation, and not fully exploring leaves gaps in your knowledge. I strive for knowledge and better understanding in all things.

Anomaly_

This might seem like an oversimplification for the sake of a terse saying, but I've always felt that the best revenge is leading a successful and enjoyable life (which does not include focusing your energy on the offending party).

Sun Tzu, you probably acknowledge it now, but your energy could've been much better spent. Dealing with people like that outside the law is just more trouble than it's worth. And for some trivia: that goofball Tom Arnold actually did something very similar to what you did except the man in question really molested him. That doesn't bother me so much because he sincerely wanted to protect the children in the community of his hometown and could do nothing legally because of the statute of limitations.

Dilbert1234567

i think you acted to quickly, and did irreparable harm, always wait a least a week before acting on your emotions, and then really think how easily you can fix what you have done. There is no way you can undo what you did. No possible way. And yes it could have legal repercussions, it is liable or slander (I don’t recall which) and it was done with the intent to harm. If revenge is what you need find a less destructive method. Good luck with the repercussions.

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Sun Tzu

I did confront him verbally; in person, by certified mail, by email. When I was informed he approached her daughter at her school is when I confronted him physically. Actually I approached him and his associate at his residence. That’s the one night I spent in jail. As a result of him being charged with violating a restraining order by approaching the little girl, and being forced to attend an anger management course (not to mention an extremely expensive attorney) the charges were dropped. His friend did not press charges for reasons I won’t go into.

The fact he approached a child, even for reasons in possibly alarming her mom is creepy enough for me to make certain assumptions. Men (or adults in general) that don’t have children going to a school and don’t have official duties have no business lerping about talking to the kids. She would have yelled stranger but she didn’t because of knowing him. In my eyes that’s not only violating a restraining order, but the innocence of a child.

This is a case where law enforcement has failed. The guy has been pretty slick in his harassment tactics so there’s little they could do. I don’t know if I've ruined his name, but I know there are more eyes on him now. So far I haven’t seen any legal trouble from what I did. I’m helping my friend move to an undisclosed location this weekend. Should there be any further harassment by this person I will not become involved or go anywhere near him, nor do anything of a harmful nature to him physically, psychologically, or socially. That’s all I will comment on that.



I appreciate all the feedback, even the "shame on you"s, but I didn’t mean to bring the negative energy to the forum. I feel bad because I might have planted a flame foundation here, not my intention at all. Debate is cool I just hope arguments don’t start because of a thread I started.

I think all of the people I seen post in this thread and most in other threads sound like decent people that are checked in to the world around them. For the gents that are starting to get elevated, I'll just comment on this: it’s good to have a belief system in the way an intended control of feelings, emotions, and actions will be in a threatening or confrontational situation. 3 years ago I wouldn’t have seen myself doing the things I did.

Personally I have to say it was different when it was reality and I saw someone I love being hurt. Not once, but repeatedly. I hope no one here has to put their values and self control to the test; it truly feels like a dammed if you do / dammed if you don’t scenario.
Thanks again everyone for offering your opinions; they are all valued.

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Orodinn

Ill start with that statement. Your friend most likely would have gotten punched wether he decided to act violently or not. I think what you meant is that had he attacked first, he couldve avoided the whole situation. You know, really can't do anything once the other decides to go violent, BUT it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to use violence to prevent the other from doing harm. You might as well kill anyone whom you suspect can be dangerous so that they can't touch you. See what I mean?

Let's isolate the incident to have a better understanding of the problematic of the situation. Let's pretend there are no consequences legally. Now, let's see what your friend can do (before or after getting punched in the face). He can either choose to go violent or not. If he chooses to replicate physically, one of the 2 would likely end up badly wounded or worse, dead. As I said earlier, choosing destruction gives you instant gratification at the expense of long term damage. Now, your friend might feel better if he won the fight and feel like he's safe now but the truth is that the problem is not solved yet. It's possible that the other guy gets all his friends to get revenge and gets your friend beaten senselessly. The problem is not solved and it can keep escalading. It's also possible that he never meets the guy again and don't hear about it ever again, but he'll have to fear the possibility that he could. But that's not the reason why I say his problem isn't solved. If he always chooses violence as the solution to his problems (wether it's the first option or the last one, doesn't matter) he will most likely meet someone stronger than him physically someday who'll kick the crap outta him. Your friend can also choose not to act violent. If he gets punched in the face he can get up and tell the agressor that he still won't fight. Violent people are so because they feel inferior somehow or are unable to solve their problems differently. At the core, their goal isn't to destroy someone, but to show their superiority. They got something to prove. If you choose not to fall in his game and decide not to fight, the other will feel as if he's won and proved that he was superior. His goal reached, he most likely won't keep fighting. Someday, maybe he'll realize he was the weaker man for resorting to violence, but for now, you're safe and your problem is completely solved. You don't have to fear any comeback from the guy ever again.

You have to realize violence isn't always physical. Saying "fuck you" is a violent act and while it may seem inoffensive, it can easily escalatate into fists fights and worse. These people get shot because they choose violence as an option before the break-in, by equiping themselves with a gun, and after the break-in by threatening the agressor with a gun. Should these people had chosen not to buy a gun or not to use the gun during the break-in, they would still be alive. Threatening someone is a violent act and goes into the category "destructive" solution.

analog

No, I meant if he'd considered violence as an option, he'd have readied himself and not fallen victim to a surprise attack. I myself had appraised the situation and was honestly ready for violence. Had the sucker-punch been directed at me, he'd never have hit me, because I was mentally prepared. And, no, I don't have superhuman reflexes, I have the reflexes of a person who's taken several years of martial arts training- and don't bother asking because i'm not elaborating on it.

I'm done with this exchange, because it seems like an endless back-and-forth. I recognize your viewpoints, and many of them make perfect sense in the defense of a perpetually non-violent person. The only thing I was trying to get across is that I personally believe you are at the greatest advantage when you are able to consider all possibilities in any situation, and that includes the violent ones.

No, that's an asinine statement taking something I've said to an absurd extreme, and precisely the reason this debate can go on no longer. I appreciate your candor in this thread, but it's now a pointless endeavor.

tangledweb

This kind of Revenge is pointless and only exaggerates a bad situation. Wronging someone who has wronged you just makes you the same kind of bastard that you were pissed off at. I am not digging Sun Tzu because he obviously feels bad about what he did but that doesn't mitigate the damage he did.

Ignore the assholes and don't let them get to you. Reacting to the shit that someone dishes out only extends the bullshit and makes everything worse. Let it go and avoid the assholes.

Sun Tzu

What if they were to pull your children into it, kill your pet, destroy your property, and have managed to find indirect ways of harassment which had essentially narrowed down to psychological assault---and only spent a week in jail and still continued? If your first reaction is to call authorities-- it had been done multiple times. If your second was to reason, then firnly reason with the person--- that had been done. Cameras-- done, guard dog. . . well they killed it. Anything beyond that I dont see you advising because of the point you've raised. DO you have any suggestions from what I told you?

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WhoaitsZ

hmm. how about.... you hurt someone i love and she/he/it mentions it then i mention it and it happens again... i'll hurt ya

most likely i'd get someone else to do it, me being in the chair.

thing is.... as mentioned before, the revenge made you feel better... how did it help her?

violence should only (imo) be used to put an end to such behavoire.

ARTelevision

On the one hand, there is a very specific situation introduced and described by the thread starter. On the other hand are the general discussions of revenge. Because the situation at hand is so unusual in its scope, scale, and dimension, it's very easy to veer all over the place between the poles of specificity and generality. I don't know what else to say about it at this point.

It's a fascinating discussion.

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WhoaitsZ

do you realize you just gave a semi definition to what 'art' is?

cracked me up some reason
-shrug-

punx1325

Revenge may not be right, and I don't know how religious you are, but you are suppost to leave revenge up to God. However, I once fell very short of this. Back in the day, like 9th grade, I had an ex-friend who reminds me a lot like Farva from Super Troopers and Craig from Malcolm in the Middle. And well he pissed me off for the last time. So I TPED his house, yes it was childish I know. But it felt so good and so right. Long story short my parents found out and we did over 100 bucks worth of damage. I got grounded for a month and never regretted one moment of it, because he made my life a living hell. I was brought up on the basis of treat people how you wanted to be treated. It may have been childish, but I'd do it again in heartbeat. You ended up regretting what happend and the only way you can feel better about yourself as a person is to confront him face to face and apoligize. Sadly in this society you could be sued if you confronted him. If it were myself I'd cower, because if I went to that extreme, they must have done something really bad. I'm really out of words so I will wish you Good Luck!

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WhoaitsZ

revenge is odd. sometimes it's good to pay back.... i am, however, positive than to live a remotely decent life you have to learn to forgive. i've rarely done the Eye For An Eye bit, but i have definatly gotten revenge..

as for protecting someone or putting someone in their place? it isn't revenge; it's a way to show that you will not tolerate abuse. that sounds odd, beating the beater, but we aren't searching for logic. sometimes you have to show them what can happen.

Fire

it could be argued that there are truly low and scummy people out there who will only change when made to suffer- and suffering that they do not know the source of is often quite effective in causing a bit of introspection which MIGHT (or not) cause them to change- from a personal standpoint, I live life with the belief that a person wronging you in a serious way merits punishment, likewise, them wronging someone you care about should also bring punishment- you must look at it from a detached viewpoint, and if a person is truly a threat, that threat must be eliminated, using no more force than is nescessary to prevent them from being a threat any longer- use the law if you can, if not then DIY- It should be noted that I also feel that right and wrong are sometimes subjective, with a lot of gray areas, and that sometimes to produce a good outcome requires an evil act.

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