Abortion - Whats your take?- Have you?
 

PLEASE READ ALL OF THIS BEFORE POSTING... THANKS.

I am curious about abortion and how people cope with having had one. This question is definitely open to "father" as well as "mother".

I know that for some it doesn't "stretch" their values to have had an abortion and they are peaceful about it afterward.

For some the abortion was an act that they have a hard time coping with afterward. For some the pain or regret lasts for the rest of their life.

What do you think about abortion? (no judging each other please)

If you have had one, did it conflict with your core values?

if so, how have you been able to cope?

Recent events in my life make it necessary to ask.

My S.O. has never had one thankfully, but my sister did. She was going out with this guy for a few years, she was around 25ish, and already had three kids and on birth control. Her boyfriend threw out her birth control, then basically raped her because she wasn't willing to have sex with him at that point. Because of it, she got pregnant.
I agree with what she did, plain and simple. I don't think that if the person gets pregnant because of rape they should keep it. I agree to abortion in other situations and I'll answer them in another post if wanted.

Thanks Fallon,

I appreciate your candor. I know that I am haveing a hard time with an abortion that happened recently. It was my daughter who had it and she is fairly religious. I am sure that it is going to give her a hard time for quite a while. For me Personally I am just glad that she is safe. I just know, based on her and her mother, that this issue is going to be a tough one to deal with.

Thanks again.

I'm pro-choice.

If some people are stupid enough to have unprotected sex, they will most likely be lousy parents.. an abortion would be better.

I'm a nineteen year old who practices safe sex....two methods of birth control, just in case. If, in some cruel twist of fate, I were to become pregnant, I can't say if I would or wouldn't have an abortion. I consider myself "pro-choice", but it's just that...a personal choice. I can't right-out say that yes, I would have an abortion, or no, I would not. However, I believe that abortion should be legally available. Whole hell of a lot safer than a wire hanger or throwing a woman down a flight of stairs. There are other reasons I believe in abortion, but this pretty much sums up my feelings.

Personally. I am pro choice. It is completely up to the woman to make her own decisions about her body. I don't believe anyone else has a say in the matter.

On a side note..one of my friends recently had one as a result of forced intercourse, and would you believe that her health insurance covered it?

difficult...while i want to have respect for a woman's sovergienty over her body, i don't know if i can really say that she has a right to abort a child the father wants (assuming the sex was consesual.) I just know that personally, i would have a very difficult time accepting my child was going to be killed and that i could do nothing to stop it....

So i guess i'm agnostic about it in general, provided it is available in cases of rape, incest, or the health of the mother being in jeopardy.

I think at this point I would have a very hard time aborting a fetus that was Ratbastid's. It would be a different story if I was just in a casual relationship, or if the pregnancy was a result of rape. I think every woman has to draw that line for herself, though. I really don't believe life begins at conception (that is, I'm not sure a fetus has a soul till it's born), but I imagine conception alone might be enough for some people to start relating to a fetus as a potential if not an actual human being. Easier to do if you're in love with the father.

I can see both sides of the the whole issue, and I think both have good arguments. Although I know where I stand on it, I think it's something of a "moral grey area".

I think that if the woman was raped, or if having the baby is likely to seriously harm her in some way, an abortion is justified. If the pregnancy is the result of carelessness, ie. not using birth control then I'm against aborting it. If the parent(s) is/are unwilling/unable to support a child, then I think they should put it up for adoption. If it's the result of birth control not working for whatever reason, then I'm not really sure. I'd probably lean towards anti-abortion in this case, again, I think adoption would be a better alternative.

my g/f and I went over this in detail when we started being active together.

My stance is this: I'm not going anywhere, even though I had a hand in it, I have to live with it. Half of it would be my fault and I would have to live with the consequences. On the other hand, its her body, and she is carrying the child. If she has my child, I will do my part to bring it up. If she chooses to abort (which she says she would do, if it were to happen before we get married, which wont be for a long time yet), then I will live with that choice as well.

Ive seen too many cases where people who are pro-life had to live with the man who made them pregnant running away, and them having to raise this child on their own. The men involved in this are spineless and irresponsible, and the women have thrown their lives away.

Another case for this is a case of my friend, who got pregnant off rape, by far the best argument for abortion that I have ever seen. My g/f also went over this possibility with me - my answer was the same.

I dont think that we, as men, have any right to enforce or create rules about abortion. Until we have to go through something like that (either having the child or aborting it), we havent got a single right, no matter how religious or moral we may be.

My story, in short version.

I've helped friends obtain abortions and have no problem with it at all. I see it as entirely the choice of the person who is pregnant. If she wants to include the father-to-be in her decision, that is commendable.

If you don't want to have a child - you shouldn't be forced to have one.
For me, it's as simple as that.

If someone doesn't want to have a child, why are they putting their hoo-hoo in a female's hee-hee without protection? :) At what [ultimately, arbitrary] point is an unborn child not just "part of the mother", but itself, a life which needs to be protected from harm?

Yes, seretogis, that's the type of fascinating and significant question those who make our laws get paid to resolve. I believe in the division of labor in a society and so do not see a need to have opinions about every detail of every issue that comes down the pike.

I'm well aware of how this issue gets diced and sliced in continual debate. I'm not a fan of endless debate when beliefs are involved. I see it as individuals having their own opinions and that is fine with me. When it comes down to making policies about things like this, I accept the decisions of democratically elected legislatures.

I used to think that abortion was okay until I got my wife pregnant. The medical people started asking us questions about whether or not we wanted to have any genetic testing done. The theory is that it is possible to predict (sometimes with a fairly high accuracy rate) the possibility of a genetic defect in a fetus that will lead to some awful condition.

When they asked us about the testing we talked and realized that we weren't going to terminate the pregnancy under any circumstances - it was planned and we intended to follow through with it. I didn't know until then that I was opposed to my wife getting an abortion. Previously, I would say that the choice to terminate a pregnancy was the sole perogative of the pregnant woman. Today I feel differently and, fortunately for me, my wife supports my point of view.

Having said all that, I will also say that everyone needs to live with their choices and if someone else chooses to have an abortion, I will be available to support them. I have spent time with women following the procedure and tried to be as comforting as possilbe because I thought it was a horribly hard decision to make and a physically uncomfortable/painful one also. Good luck to you and your daughter skippy.

Personaly, (im a guy) I gotta say that I would be more or less pro choice. I'm not against it, and I don't care if other people do it, so...

If I was the guy though, there is no way in hell that I would support that. None, whatsoever.

i'm pro-choice but i dont think its right to use abortion as birth control. its a good thing for certain situations like rape or to save the mother. personaly i wouldnt have my wife/girlfriend have an abortion cause god can use every1 for good and theres other ways out like adoption.

I myself would try to avoid my significant other getting an abortion, I feel it would be a decision that would bear down on me my entire life. I would never be judgemental against anyone who did decide to have it done, they probably need support to get past the pain, shunning them will do no good.

One of my best friends got his girlfriend pregnant, and she had an abortion She didn't feel she was ready. And what do you know, less than 2 months later she was pregnant again. I'm happy she is keeping this one, but she feels regretful for deciding to get an abortion in the first place.

I'm happy to see that this post appears to be pretty civil. I guess it proves we do have grown-ups on this board.

I am HIGHLY pro-life. I deep down in my heart believe that abortion is murder...because thats what it is as hard as it is to accept.

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with that statement. Killing the child does not make it better off. Adoption does. I don't see how never allowing the child to ever be (breathe, think, decide, learn, love, etc.) is making it better off? It's selfishness is all it is, it's them (the parents) trying to convenience themselves and make themselves "better off" not the child. I think this whole philosophy of "Oh it's her body it's her choice" is bullshit. It was her choice whether or not to have unprotected sex or not....not whether or not a child should live or die. I highly agree with the government being able to make these decisions....because the child himself can not and it should be their decision whether they live or die not their irresponsible parents decision and since they can't decide for themselves the government should be allowed to do that for them because if they could, they would want to live and they would choose to live if it were possible. Do you people even know how an abortion is performed? They drill a hole into the childs heads and suck out all of it's brain tissue...then after that it's thrown into embalming fluid or a trash can. Theres no respectability and dignity to their departure. They aren't burried or cremated like many of you would like to be when you die. Now in the case of empregnation as the result of a rape I'm torn....it's a very sensitive subject because they of course had no choice or say in the matter of course not every situation is the same....in the event of them walking alone and a total stranger jumping out of the bushes and forcing themselves upon the woman I would be extremely sensitive to their needs...I of course would want the child to live out of my own personal compassion but she shouldn't have to be forced in that situation and I believe the law should provide some sort of exception in these cases. However, many times rape is the result of the woman being somewhere they know better than to be. Like sneaking out of their parents house with their boyfriend when they know they shouldn't with the intention of having sex and then getting second thoughts and ending up being raped. Though I feel remorse for them they should have known better than to do that and some of the fault is theirs though not entirely theirs. Also if they decide to go to a party and get completely shit faced and pass out and get raped that way....Thats why you shouldn't go and get drunk! Thats why you don't go out and be in a private place with a man you know you can't trust yet! I mean if you think you know them well then it's not your fault at all, not even in the slightest but if not then take some responsibility when need be. Also do you know that the majority of these pregnancies as the result of rape happen because the victim fails to report the rape on time before they have any chance to perform any preventative procedures on the victims? I mean I undestand you've been through a tramatic experiance but you aren't doing anyone (including yourself) any benefit by not reporting these rapes when they occur and on top of the offenders being allowed to roam the streets and rape again terminating a life as well. I might seem a tad bold and cold-hearted in these statements but you have to agree with me on some of these. Because it's not just any little thing it's a life. A life that should be taken seriously. I can't stand these women who have sex and sex and sex and then get pregnant and cry and cry because they couldn't provide for it or they don't want to provide and care for it and then try and make you feel sorry for them. Bullshit no fuckin way sister you'll get no sympathy from me what so ever! Thats what you get thats why you shouldn't be having unprotected sex when you know the consequences. Those women make me sick....especially some who've had several abortions...who the hell do you think you are? I do apologize if I have offended anyone with my statements but I am very sensitive about this subject and that is how I truely feel and nothing anyone can say or do could change my mind about that. And if you're the father and you're pressuring your wife/gf to have an abortion be a fuckin man and except your responsibility!

Asta!!

EDIT: I also forgot to mention the case of a birth being terminal. In which case the baby could be born but the mother would die...I don't know if I have a complete and firm opinion about this I just know that if I were the husband it would be deeply painful having to part either and I guess thats all I'll say about that.

K-Wise, I'd like to clarify and say that what you described is a partial-cirth abortion, and I think that the procedure is nothing other than murder.

As for me, I draw the line at the point that the fetus develops its own nervous system. To me, that is a perfect balance between my scientific and medical arguments and my religious and spiritual side. In case of rape, I think that the ideal solution is a screening to rule out pre-existing pregnancy, then the use of a morning-after pill.

I strongly favor adoption over abortion, but I don't think that it should be the decision of anyone except the parents.

Thank you for refreshing my mind on that. I had forgotten the particular type so rather than make one up or put what I think it was I chose not to instead. I'm not sure how common that form is but I'm sure it's more common than I'd like. Probably the most common are done through pills early on. I'm not comfortable with either though actually. Kinda hard to have an opinion on a sort of thing like this cause someone will always have something to say about it that challenges your belief or forces you to make an exception....I believe that it is a life and life is sacred but any naturalist could call me a hypocrite cause I think thats murder but I love eggs for breakfast which is kinda silly I guess but still ya know. Eh.....yeah

Asta!!

I was partner to an abortion once. It has mixed effects on me. I was to young at the time (still am) to even be realistically thinking about raising a kid. My g/f certainly wasn't a very mature person.

I still think about it every now and then. I wonder what I would be like if we kept him/her, how life would be different. I am thankful we didn't, but I have the date of the abortion permanantly etched into my mind.

The decision to get the abortion was certainly a tough one to make. We went back and fourth for about a week. Eventually it became clear what the best course of action was. I am thankful that my g/f was so strong during that time.

Afterwards was tough for a bit, but we ended stronger. It showed us that there was no obsticle we couldn't work through together.

I think cripples and mentally retarded children should be clubbed at birth. Never had any kids myself, after college once I can support and raise them like they require then sure, I'll look into it.

i'm very pro-choice. until i'm with a girl in a serious relationship, if i were to get someone pregnant, i'd want her to get an abortion. but... if she chose to keep it, i'd make sure i'd keep up my end as a father (whether i marry her or not). i'd let her know my feelings on it, and support her decision either way.

im hardcore pro life but its just my beliefs i dont think there is any reason for me to go into them as most have been stated and it would only be redundant information

I am pro choice.

I have to agree with ART that it is preferable that the father be involved. I would go further and say it is highly desirable.

Look, I don't want people to have heart surgery, I would prefer them not to need it.

I would also prefer people not have abortions. They contain an element of risk, like all medical procedures.

I will say that the "women's issue" argument is not to my mind valid. To say that men are not involved in reproduction is unfair to those who care and encouragement to those who would drop their seed and run.

Kwise:
This statement could make me very, very angry. So i'm going to try my damndest to be civil and say that after having to repeat the line "IT WAS NOT YOUR FAULT!" to a young woman more times than i can count, that such statements that take the responsibility away from the rapist and on to the victim are EXREMELY harmful.

If you truly believe this and aren't just posting it to see the reactions then I suggest a vasectomy and/or becoming a monk.

For the most part I agree with K-Wise, but if you've had one and are miserable about it, keep in mind that God forgives all. Guilt is a tool of evil and not something you should wallow in. We all make mistakes.

We had one early in our relationship. It would not have been good for anyone to have a child when we weren't ready for it. Painful, yes - but pragmatism dictated our course.

It did not conflict with our "core" values, but of course it is not a happy thing and it will always be with us. I think it is different for men - I am easier able to just compartmentalize these things and not be sentimental. I know my wife has deeper feelings about it but she doesnt' talk about it.

I do not like how the political right has coopted the language to unfairly frame the issue. What am I? "Pro Death"?

I pretty much agree with k Wise, and Phaenx, if you truly believe that, you should be clubbed.

I truly believe it, and you're welcome to try.

I may miss a few, but heres what I see as points both sides (prolife/choice) agree on:

• An ovum is not a human person.
  
• Similarly a spermatozoa is a form of life, but its not a person either.
  
• At or shortly after conception, a fertilized ovum is a form of human life.
  
• An embryo is a form of human life.
  
• A fetus is a form of human life.
  
• A newborn baby is a form of human life.
  
• A newborn baby is a human person.
  
• Somewhere during the nine months between the ovum-spermatozoa stage and the newborn baby that breathes on its own is when human personhood begins.

The only real difference between pro-lifers and pro-choicers involves the question when does human personhood begins.

Life and personhood are two very different matters. The human ovum (egg) is already clearly alive when it enters the fallopian tubes, many hours or days before it has the opportunity to be fertilized. Women release one about each month between puberty and menopause - a few hundred in a lifetime. Almost all of these are destined to die and be ejected from the body. Unless a couple is having difficulty conceiving, very little thought is given to these hundreds of deaths. Although the ovum is a form of life, there is a consensus that it is not a human person. They are not even considered by scientists to be human organisms.

Hundreds of millions of male sperm are liberated during a typical sexual encounter. A few week's worth of ejaculations from a single male would theoretically provide sufficient sperm to double the earth's human population, if each were used to fertilize a separate ovum. Sperm are also clearly alive. Viewing them under a microscope reveals them to be energetic swimmers. Essentially all of these will die within days. Again, unless infertility is a problem, little attention is given to these deaths. An average man produces thousands of sperm a second. At most, a very few during his lifetime will contribute to the formation of a baby. The rest will die. Few men are consciously aware of the loss. Although sperm are very much alive and kicking, there is a consensus that they are not human persons; they are not human organisms.


Something to consider:
A skin scraping of a child or adult contains a very large number of living, single cells; each has the same unique human DNA code as does the human from which it came. Scottish scientists have been able to start with a cell removed from the mammary tissue of a sheep, inject it into a sheep ovum whose DNA has been removed, and produce "Dolly," a new sheep who is genetically identical to her "parent." This same procedure has been replicated for many other mammals. It is likely that the same procedure can be used to clone a human. DNA from skin scraping, or a swab of the inside of the mouth, or a hair follicle could be used to produce exact twins of the donor human. Wired Magazine for 2001-JAN predicted that human cloning would happen during the year 2001, even though it violates the medical ethic regulations of many countries. Since a just-fertilized egg contains human DNA information as does a hair follicle, they presumably should both be given the same status. We don't consider hair follicles, skin scrapings or swabs from mouths to be a human person. Skeptics might argue that we should not look upon fertilized ova as persons either.

So where does personhood begin? On the mating? THe subconscious thought of the male and female parents? WHere in the cycle of pregnancy:

• About 12 days from conception when pregnancy begins. i.e. when the fertilized ovum has developed to the blastocyst stage and has attached itself to the lining of the uterus.
  
• About two weeks from conception when a yellow streak develops in the embryo. This will later become the neural tube which will be protected by the backbone. Once this develops, it is impossible for the embryo to split into a pair of identical twins. The concept of personhood implies a single entity; twins would be two persons. Before this stage of development, the embryo may still split and become two persons.
  
• 3 weeks from conception when the embryo is about 2 mm long and has started to develop visible external body parts.
  
• 4 weeks when its heart starts to beat.
  
• 6 weeks from conception, when brain waves can be first sensed.
  
• 2 months, when the fetus has lost its neck structures which
  resemble gill slits, and its tail. Its face resembles that of a primate.
  
• 3 months the fetus begins to "look like" a baby. The recent development of high resolution 3-D ultrasound equipment provides incredibly detailed pictures of the fetus at this stage. These photographs are convincing many people that the fetus is a human person at this stage because it looks like one. 9
  
• 4 months when the fetus' face has developed to the point where one can tell one fetus from another.
  
• About 24 weeks, when the fetus becomes viable, (i.e. able to live outside the womb)
  
• 6 months or later, when the fetal brain's higher functions become operational. Scientists have: " measured brain-wave patterns like those during dreaming at 8 months gestation."
  

IMO the length of the first trimester is ample time to decide whether or not to terminate the pregancy. Once strong brain activity can be measured if an abortion is desired at least a strong support system and counseling should be given, because I believe thats where uniqueness begins. Outside of medical reasons I dont understand partial birth abortions and firmly disagree with them. Its hard for me to understand how the mother waited up until that point, and if it were my child Id do everything I could to prevent that from occuring.

The bottom line even though I may not agree; it is the mothers choice, period. How do you force a woman to have a baby that doesnt want one? THe reasons: of how and why that happend become secondary issues, no matter how much anyone other than the mother feels.

^ Pretty intelligent there. You know quite a bit about biology and genetics. You a medical personel of some sort like a doctor or some shit? Or do ya just read a lot/studying it as a profession?

Asta!!

Oh and thank you for trying to be civil about it. Now let me give you a hypothetical situation.....say you leave for work or for the weekend and you decide not to lock up your house or set your alarm system or anything and you return home to find all of your belongings stolen from you. Now though it's very hurtful and upsetting....all around pretty traumatic for you, wouldn't you have to admit to yourself that maybe you were just a little too careless and that maybe some of it was in part your fault? Now like I said if she had no control over it it's very sad and no fault is hers at all but if the rape was the result of carelessness on the womans part it could have been avoided and a life wouldn't have ever had to be destroyed that would have never had to been in the first place had a little bit more care been taken. Of course it's sad and very heartwrecking for the woman especially and the man who has to help them cope but I say things like that because they need to learn....and need to take life more seriously and be more careful with it too because you only get one....and you can't go back and change something once it's done it's done. You understand where I'm going with this right? I'm not trying to be insensitive or callous. I know I'd feel aweful if I had to consult a rape victim and I would try to comfort them in any way possible but sugar coating, beating around the bush, failing to except responsibility, etc. are not going to and will not ever help the problem any. Why do you think parents talk to us and place so much importance on not going to unsafe places, being careful, not doing drugs, always using protection, saving yourself, etc. ? It's because they'd like to protect us from having such hardships in life as best as they can....because they care and they are good parents. We all know they can't protect us from everything so we have to learn to protect ourselves, take precautions, and hopefully we won't have to be placed in a situation where we are helpless. Once again I'm not trying to offend anyone but admit it......I'm at least 50% right about most of this wouldn't you agree?

Asta!!

Im out of the medical field now, I was working in anti-aging medicine; but I didnt have those details as second nature I just did a google search and found a guide that would possibly add another helpful element in the personal quest to find the beginning of personhood.

Amazing the type a shit you can learn on the internet :)

Asta!!

Sun-Tzu makes a well argued point. (wow, tactical genius, author of the seminal work on large campaigns and former medic? Godhead awaits :))

I just feel that semantic arguments about when foetuses become "people" or not are debates about angels on the heads of pins.

To me, the point is this: Respect for life evolves from making responsible decisions about other people. If the responsible decision is to abort, so be it. If not, don't.

But let's not pussy-foot, it amounts to taking actions to end a potential person. However, so is contraception.

I prefer to think that people should be free to make the appropriate decision.

Incidentally, you could also not have sex.

Call me crazy, but... well, it's the only way to avoid the matter...

Thanks for the great debate! Very interesting.

I originally created this post because I was interested in finding answers to my own peace about an other wise intolerably painful situation.

Thanks to Sun Tzu, Fallon, Sabrina Fair and JBrooks for really reading fully, the opening statement. You advice helps a lot in makeing a reasonable decision. I actually feel a lot better thanks to your information.

Thats why I love the TFP... The people

Thanks again

I came across this thread a bit late, but as someone who has been through this, I thought I would share. In college, a broken condom resulted in an unwanted pregnancy. My girlfriend and I discussed all of the possibilities. She came to the conclusion that she was going to have an abortion. It was a difficult time, but she truly felt that it was the right decision. I felt then and still do that she had the lead decision in the matter. I was there to support her no matter what she decided. We worked our way through it and I know that she still believes it was the right decision at the time.

We both have had children since then, and both of us had some hard times after our children were born, wondering "what if?". I do believe in the right to choose, but it is a serious, vitally important decision.

Now, as far as this comment:

I hope that this is some sort of sad, pathetic attempt a humor, but pardon me if I tell you to fuck off! I hope you never become a father unless you grow up a little more. I guess I should have clubbed my brilliant, beautiful 3 year old (who is already begining to read) because he is crippled and doesn't walk.

I say it's the woman's decision. If she dosen't want a baby she shouldent be forced to have one, only to give it up for adoption. It would be easier on the mother to stop it before it's born, because once that baby comes out she may grow attached to it, and if she gives it up right away that will tear her apart inside. If she wants the abortion let her, her call.

ive got a couple friends who had abortions. neither of them just *got over it*. they all still think about it. if I were to come into the situation I would probably want it done if it was done very early in pregnancy just because I am not at a point in my life to give a child of mine the best. Untimately I would leave it up to the girl though. if she wanted to have the baby I would support her and remain with her during pregnancy and for the rest of our childs life.

first off, i'd have to say that i have no experience with pregnancy or abortion, so i could have a different reaction when faced with such issues

responding right now i'd have to say i would never opt to do it. but, at the same time, i would never judge someone for doing it because i don't think it's possible to fully understand what another person's situation is

I've learned one thing about this topic: you have to recognize ppl disagree, lend your thoughts, and leave it at that.




Regardless of any opinions I still want the option to be there for women, and I'll tell you why. Most pro-lifers say either you shouldn't have sex unless you wanna deal with the consequence or you should use birth control, and then there are the Catholics who don't even allow that so their followers can propagate their congregation.

1:We are human beings...our thoughts are consumed by sex and our sex drives...at least men's minds are. This is why many ads are saturated with sex of some sort. We are sexual animals and being "intelligent" we have learned to have sex as a recreational event as well as a satisfaction of our animal drive. You can't just tell ppl to stop something more ancient and powerful than our brains. Sex is hardwired into us...it's stronger in us than violence yet we are encouraged to view and participate in violent acts of various sorts and discouraged to engage our primal sexual urges. It's moronic to me.

2: Using birth control? That doesn't always work. Rubbers break, humans make errors, and even chemistry is to blame sometimes. A little personal story:

My roommate several years prior used to take her birth control every day religiously...I watched her take it with her coffee in the mornings. I never remember her missing a day. She had no problems for months with her bf. Then she got a yeast infection and used Diflucan as an easy way to cure the infection without creams and whatnot. A single pill cleared up the infection but also nulled her birth control at just the right time. She got pregnant and had to abort since she had taken responsibility to avoid children she didn't want and it happened anyway. Now if abortion was no longer an option she'd be forced to take on a major responsibility she wasn't ready for and wouldn't be able to meet the challenge adequately? I think that's ridiculous myself, and a disservice to the child.


So in closing I am saying each person has their opinion on this...but don't infringe on other's right to make their own decisions because of your opinion. You may just destroy someone's life with a simple opinion one day.

While I see the logic in your statement I have to acknowledge the possibility that I think she would feel even worse if she terminated the life before it even happens than to birth it and give it away. Because if she births it and gives it away....she can always see it again anyway....because even before it's born they are already somewhat attached to it once they know they have one whether they can provide for it or not. I don't think any of them actually want to terminate it. I think they just feel that they have to...which is sad. Either way they are going to feel a great deal of sadness with their decision but at least with one....there is actually the possibility of a second chance there.

Asta!!

Having had a personal expierence with abortion, I have a few things to say.
1. If you've never had to face it, you can't understand it, and have NO right to dictate what the choice should be for anyone else.
2. The choice should given to every mother, whether they take it or not is up to them. Every situation, every person, every circumstance is different. A body of legistalors, an angry mob, or even a slightly peeved mob, should not be able to make a blanket decsion and take that choice away from them.
3. I never felt like it was "my" decsion. My husband and I talked about every option. It was 100% mutual.
4. I do not regret, or feel in any way saddened, by our decsion. I can live easier with the fact that we have no child than I could with the fact that someone else had the raising and love of our child.
5. I respect all of the opinions and arguements presented here. I may not agree with them, but I respect them. Please have the same repect for mine.

I think abortion is a horrible, if not the most atrocious and coward crime there is, as it terminates the life of a total innocent human been (i don't care when anybody believes is the moment the embryo has human rights or personality, that's bull, for my concern since the egg and the sperm got together, there is new life, if you let it grow and develop, it will turn in just another human been, DAMN!!! WE ALL WERE JUST A FERTILIZED EGG ONCE!!!!).
I don't believe any man or woman have any right to terminate there son's life just because "is not the moment", "we were morons", "we were irresponsible", "we were overheated" etc... THAT'S JUST BULL!!!, one must stand against the consequences of his/hers acts. I don't believe in a woman's decision over it's body in this matter, as it is not her life that is gonna be taken, but the unborn's who happen to be living inside her.
I have a car, and i'm it's owner, it's my car dammit!, i can do whatever i want with it, but that simple fact does not give me the right to crash it against a wall while another person is with me in the car. Since i allowed someone else in my car, i'm responsible for both my life and the other's.

I'm sorry, but that is a ridiculous argument. Would you also be willing to suggest that only people over the age of 65 should be able to have an opinion on Medicare? Perhaps only rich white males in their fifties should be the only ones allowed to make policy at all? Welcome to America -- even though I won't benefit from such a .. "procedure" .. I can still speak my mind about what I think of it, and rail to stop its abuse. Instead of suggesting such a thing, perhaps you could educate the rest of us as to how it can be justified?

The last I checked, an abortion affects more than just the mother. Because of this, it is not a decision that should be left solely up to the mother.

I can assure you that this is not the case in every situation. Two friends of mine have had abortions without even telling the father that they were pregnant -- that, to me, is incredibly deceitful.

I'm probably reading this wrong, but that sounded incredibly selfish to me. You're glad that the child is gone, rather than that the child may have been making some other -- grateful -- family happy? What?

I really don't see how you can suggest that "if you haven't done it, you have NO right to dictate what the choice should be" and then claim to respect others opinions. You can't have it both ways.

I'm with you. I also support the idea of legal abortion so that the woman who was raped or is already in poor health can get proper care.

On a very personal basis, I don't see how I could get an abortion, even in the case of rape, but I'm the sort who can't even kill a spider. I'm a big fan of adoption. Too many loving couples out there who can't have kids, like my cousin and her hubby.

Pro choice bias off the bat, but a friends experience in toe.

I had a female friend who decided to have an abortion after a party she doesn't remember much of (not even sure who the father is, no one wants to fess up) and it destroyed her emotionally, but she knew it would be better for her future.

I am totaly opposed to abortions. I think that no one person should have the choice to legaly take anothers, unless that person has been proven to only be harmfull to society multiple times. Alot of people say it's the womens right, but is it really thier right to make the decision to end another life? I think that a women has a right to carry a firearm, and kill a rapist trying to hurt her, but not to take the life of an innocent child. Alot of would-be-mothers say that it was "best for the child", but then so did the mother who killed her three children by drowning them in a bathtub. I have only a small amount of sympathy for those who had sex while drunk or on drugs, or at a party. This was your choice to go to the party. I doubt anyone forced you to drink or do drugs. If you are handed something don't drink it. Duh. DOn't forget our high-school classes.

I really don't know how I would answer this myself, being male, because there's hormones, emotions, and psycological effects of pregnancy, abortion, even adoption that I really couldn't grasp. So I'll let the experts on the subject (women) decide.

I don't know if that's pro-choice or not, I'm just saying that I know I'm not ready to have a child, so I take the proper precautions...

I'm Pro-Choice 100%. There's not a doubt in my mind that if me and my girlfriend were to have an accident that we would get an abortion ASAP. And I literally mean ASAP. Before it's a human, before it's murder. Ruining two lives because of a simple technology related accident is bullshit. If my girlfriend were to get pregnant, both of us would have to drop out of college, ruining all of the time and money we've put into it, get our own apartment and get jobs with no degree or field experience. If I have the choice of preventing a baby to be born or ruining two lives, then I'll go with protecting my life and my girlfriend's. Having a baby that will ruin our lives is NOT the way I want to think about my future child. We'll have a baby when we're good and ready.

-Lasereth

^ Protection and abstinence are good ways of acheiving that goal also buddy. Just as effective if not more. And having a baby that will ruin your lives? The baby can't do anything....it's a baby....the only one who can ruin your life is you....yourself. Don't ever forget that.

Asta!!

I can't judge anyone without knowing all the facts, people tend to think of abortion in black or white terms. It's so much more complicated than that! Important thing is you shouldn't judge people, you have no right. You point a finger you got 3 pointing back at you

What happens though if a women was raped, had the baby kept it and took out all her angry from the rape on it?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phaenx
[B]I think cripples and mentally retarded children should be clubbed at birth. Never had any kids myself, after college once I can support and raise them like they require then sure, I'll look into it.

I just reported you to the moderator. Grow up! Quit trying to get a reaction out of people, get a damn hobby. Yeah so that means Eisenhower should have been clubbed, wheelchair bound ya know, Helen Keller, Oh yeah they thought Eienstien was retarded too, same with Kurt Cobain when he was a child. Mother Theresa had a club foot. Shall I go on? Oh wait yeah these "Cripples" or "retards" have done more than you will ever accomplish in your lifetime and you don't have any disabilites? How's that for a reaction?

Do you people even know how an abortion is performed? They drill a hole into the childs heads and suck out all of it's brain tissue...then after that it's thrown into embalming fluid or a trash can. Theres no respectability and dignity to their departure. They aren't burried or cremated like many of you would like to be when you die.


This is actually know as partial abortion which is in the process of being outlawed. This only happens when the pregency is in it's fifth or fourth month. Also most rape victims tend to have no dignity when left for example in fields on highways.


However, many times rape is the result of the woman being somewhere they know better than to be. Like sneaking out of their parents house with their boyfriend when they know they shouldn't with the intention of having sex and then getting second thoughts and ending up being raped. Though I feel remorse for them they should have known better than to do that and some of the fault is theirs though not entirely theirs. Also if they decide to go to a party and get completely shit faced and pass out and get raped that way....Thats why you shouldn't go and get drunk! Thats why you don't go out and be in a private place with a man you know you can't trust yet!


You sound like you are assuming this is how rape happens alot of the time. Don't juge people based on what you don't know. I think children should be placed up for adoption if the victim is raped, but you seem to be trivilizing the rape. You are giving women a double standard and no women ever asks to be raped. It's fucked up that you turn the blame on the victim rather than the rapist! Women should have the right to go to parties and get fucked up, instead of having to worry about some sick bastard taking advanatge of them! This kind of thinking pattern is what discourages women from telling others they have been raped, they think it is their fault and it's not! Whatever the circumstances are does not give anybody the right to take advantage of anybody else! Because rape happens to boys too. I just think you should rethink your comments, I take them very personally.

This has all been very insightful, as I currently sit on the fence on this issue.

I'm generally pretty liberal, and an agnostic, but also an ethical vegetarian. Given that, I don't like anything being killed needlessly, humans or animals. I accept that the moment of conception begins human life. As such, I tend to think of abortion as killing, but there are so many more issues to it. Rape cases, cases where children will be born with severe diseases or defects causing pain and preventing a semi-normal life. One must also wonder if the child would really be better of being adopted. Most children in these cases live most of their lives with foster parents, and while I don't deny that there are success, there are a lot of failures.

To a lesser extent, one must consider the quality of life of a child who's parents are high school dropouts and can't properly provide for a child. If I fucked up and got a girl pregnant, would I be able to drop my potentially bright future and work full-time to support a child? I don't know.

There are so many lurking variables that I can't come to a conclusion of my own. Each case needs to be examined individually, and there is no clear cut right or wrong in this issue to me. Thankfully I don't have to deal with it, and hope I'm never in a situation where I would, because it would mean a pretty painful decision either way.

Just chiming in late...

I was party to an abortion at 18. If I had known then what I know now, I would never have agreed to it and neither would she.

I had bought into the idea that abortion was OK because the child wasn't developed, etc. etc. Being a Chrisitan made this a difficult situation and decision and most of our decision was made out of ignorance and dis-information. While having our first baby (10 years later) we learned TONS about children and their developement in-utero. We made the wrong choice and have had to deal with it.

We made peace with our decision ages ago and I haven't really thought much about it since, until I read your post.

I consider pro-choice to be choosing whether or not to have sex. I believe that anyone who truly looks into the act of abortion with all of the information available today, will see it for what it is. It absolutely SHOULD be available to women in extreme circumstances (rape, incest, etc.) but should not be an easy, available option for everyone.

Life and maturity is all about accepting the consequences of our decisions and learning/growing from them. We shouldn't treat abortion as casually as we sometimes do in society. Having been a party to an abortion, I can't judge anyone or look down on anyone for doing it, but I CAN offer an experienced opinion to anyone considering it.

for how conservative ive become lately....i really dont know. im still more personal freedoms.....let the women decide...but i dont know.... im on the fence i guess

People always shout "I'm pro-choice! I should get to choose to have an abortion!"

Well oh-wise-one...didn't you make the choice to have sex and risk pregnancy? Just because you screwed up (pun intended) it does not give you the right to mess with another's life. And yes, a fetus is alive no matter how pro-lifers try to ignore the fact.

The biggest problem with today's society is the lack of individual accountability. You make a decision, you deal with the consequences.

If you aren't ready to deal with the consequences of having sex and the risk of getting pregnant, then perhaps you aren't ready to have sex period.

Think about it. Everything has its consequences and you can't just blow them off if you make a mistake.

I agree. You can "choose" not to have a child by not ejaculating inside of a vagina. It's pretty simple.

No I'm not assuming anything. That IS how rape happens alot of the time. It's fact...statistical. So I'm not "judging" anyone based on what I "don't" know but what I do know. Of course no one asks to be raped why would they? But if they put themselves in a possibly questionable situation they shouldn't be surprized if something happens. Thats fact....trying to shield this fact with compassion and "you don't know what you're talking about, how they feel, blah blah blah" doesn't help the situation at all. What I'm saying is more beneficial than saying "It's okay you went and got completely drunk...how were you supposed to know a perve was there....at a party....with beer" It's drunk guys and drunk girls and both parties do a lot of stupid things they regret. Thats like the guy driving drunk afterwards and killing and innocent person walking on the side walk Women should have the right to go to parties and get fucked up, instead of having to worry about some sick bastard taking advanatge of them! Theres a little something called reality....have you met it? It's not whether or not they should have the right...they do have the right...and thats why they have to accept a mistake if one was made. Just because they have the right doesn't mean it couldn't happen. I should be able to walk through Crip territory wearing my favorite red shirt without getting shot but I think of every possibility before I go putting my life in danger and realize hey maybe it's not worth it. If she goes and gets completely drunk it's partially her fault as aweful as the situation may be it is....you have to learn to accept that. She didn't have to drink herself to unconsciousness....she didn't even have to go to a party.....You don't expect some sicko to be there that may take advantage of you and you should. They can drink at home (unless they still live with their parents in which case they have no business drinking in the first place) and they can have a few friends over....friends they can trust. I know plenty a guys and girls who go out and have a good time but they do it with a shred of responsibility. They look out for each other. Drinking and drunk are 2 completely different things....you can tell when yer gonna get drunk there isn't a single frequent drinker who doesn't know his/her limits. They can also take a friend with them to watch out for them just in case some asshole decides to slip them a mickey or something. I know I watch out for my friends whenever we go to parties and if I see some asshole slip something into my friends drink I'm gonna dump it over his head and get him kicked the fuck outta the place. I know you take the comments personally and maybe thats because deep down you know it was a stupid thing you just don't have the heart to tell them....Who does? I know I would have a pretty hard ass time myself but I know deep down it was stupid and I accept that and if it will benefit them in the future I'll remind them to be more careful (not place the blame on them) and keep my eye on them when I can. All you're doing is making excuses for the stupid things we choose to do. You aren't helping anything by doing that and you're never going to help anything by doing that. I mean you say I'm taking the blame off the rapist but is that really what I'm doing? No it's not I'm putting the responsibility in the person who could be victimized again so that they take a little more care next time and the asshole doesn't have someone else to rape. Every single last one of you says the same thing but if ya stay home and lock your door your chances of getting raped by someone you don't know are almost zero....if you do decide to go out but you don't drink and don't go off into a room with some guy/girl you don't know your chances of getting raped are also slightly lower.....if you do decide to drink but not to the point where you become drunk there is a chance someone could slip you something but the chances are still not as high....now if you do get drunk to the point where if you know you keep drinking you're unsure what could happen and you still drink anyway the possibilities are a LOT fucking higher wouldn't you agree? We all gotta grow up sometime ya know. It's a fucked up world we live in and we can't always place the blame on everyone else if we know something could happen and we chance it anyway. When we all have kids of our own we're all gonna think a lot differently about this. Would you want your daughter going off to a party to go and get drunk just so she could have a good time? Or would you worry that some sicko might rape her? You would worry for her because you know that could happen because that is reality that is the sad truth that is what we all come to accept. People expect stupid things to happen when you gather a bunch of drunken people into one room it's common sense. It's not like other misfortunes people face like going to withdraw money and the place being robbed or a kid shooting all his classmates. I think you should stop arguing with me and think about what I'm saying. You know there is a lot of truth to what I'm saying even if you won't admit it. If my arguments were completely misguided I wouldn't have people agreeing with me. The only people who don't are the people that don't want to have to give up the luxery of correcting a mistake by killing it off or people who want to still go out and get drunk and do irresponsible things and not wannat take responsibility for them later. Stop making excuses for everyone and make solutions. Please don't bother PM'ing me about this either cause I'm just gonna tell you the same thing I told you here.

Asta!!

could you enlighten us to this information about abortion that would totally change our pro-choice views? cause if you could show me something that would get me to change my views, hell, i'd probably be willing to convert to christianity too. but it's not very bloody likely.

oh, and k-wise, i agree with what your saying about how the victim is partially responsible. cause she happened to be somewhere where she ends up getting raped. i don't think it's really her fault, but she should have thought more about it before going there. here's my problem with what your saying though, and it's got to do with every post you've had about it... you are putting the blame on the victim, and not the rapist. if you had to comfort a victim, you might do a fine job, but based on the way you wrote about it, you seem to look at is as "well, that's what men do, she should have known better." the thing is, she may have known better, and there may have been nothing she could have done about it. also, you're taking all responsibility off of the rapist. and that happens alot. just in the way the news covers it. instead of hearing "man rapes jogger" on the news, it's "lady raped in the park." the unspoken message is that women are at fault, and not the person who committed the crime. using your example of going out of town and leaving hte house unlocked with no alarm on, it's still not the home owners fault. the person who came to rob them didn't know the door was open. he had to go and check it. he may have gone door to door looking for one, and that may be how he chose which house to ultimately rob, but if he didn't find one with unlocked doors, he very llikely would have just forced his entry. if someone's out to do something, the shit's gonna happen no matter how safe the victim tries to be.

And where did this revelational clump of statistical data come from. I hope you have a good repsectable source, because your really stepping on the edge saying something like that.

IMO this rest of that paragraph was as ****** as its opening, but quoting it was enough.

I really dont need to say anymore as it speaks for itself; the only reason Im commenting is because while I may not agree what the member said ( the one you reported to the mods about whose statement you took offense to); I think it takes a certain amount of audacity to make such a complaint; then turn around and make a statement like this.

Everyone knows the most common form of rape is date rape especially if you've taken a Crime In America or criminal awareness class before. I know I wrote a whole paper about this very subject. Once again I'm not trying to put the blame on anyone I'm trying to tell them that they should be more careful so their mistakes don't ruin their lives as well as a life that will never get to be. I mean he's a rapist...of course the blunt of the fault is his and his alone but women don't have to go and make it any easier for him ya know? Now the example you bring up about a woman jogging and getting raped is not the same thing as what I was talking about. Thats a lot different cause it isn't really the woman doing anything irresponsible like drinking too much she's just trying to take care of her body....she's fully aware of everything. And a locked house is a little bit harder to get into than one that isn't locked. It takes time and noise etc. to break into a house and if the environment isn't right he might just think "Hey well maybe I should keep looking for an easier house" ya know? You say it takes a certain amount of audacity to say what I'm saying but I say it takes a certain amount of backbone. Sometimes ya have to be bold and blunt about something even if it hurts someone rather than just pussy foot around the issue. If a guys unknowingly being an idiotic asshole and does stupid and offensive things without anyone telling him about it cause they're afraid of hurting his feelings or what not he's never gonna change and he's never gonna know....perhaps even one day say the wrong thing to the wrong person. Oh but I guess how dare I tell someone they shouldn't put themselves in harms way? How dare I care about an unborn fetus? How dare I have any concern for a womans well being and tell her that maybe she should be careful someone doesn't hurt her yeah what a rude asshole I must be for that! And who did I report to the mods? What are you talking about I didn't report anyone.

Asta!!

I just don't think it should be anybody's business, especially the governments to decide the morality of the issue. I consider myself pro-life but that's where it stops. I'm not going to preach to other people. Really, that makes me seem like I'm pro-choice. Now I'm really confused.

I had a girlfriend one time who always told me that she was very pro-life and would NEVER get an abortion. We broke up after a couple of years and both moved on. 6 months later she called and wanted to get together for dinner, which we did. After a couple of hours she finally confesses that she's pregnant from her new boyfriend and wants to borrow some money to get an abortion. I was floored! It just goes to show that people can have very strong views as long as it's somebody else. When it come to you personally all the rules get thrown out.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sun Tzu



Excuse me Sun Tzu, but I didn't post that I was quoting K-wise if you would have read up a little farther. And arguing against what we had said. Sorry I don't know how to make the groovy little blue box around the quote, so you will know it is one. Don't you read all the posts before posting?

Well K-wise all I can tell you is when a friend of yours gets raped don't say "You should have know better,"

I totally understand. I will comfort her as best as I can and when I have a daughter of my own some day, I'll tell her about it and the other things I've said here and hopefully she'll make all the right decisions when the decisions really matter.

Asta!!

Crazy I read up and it sounded as though you were agreeing with him. I've realized its a caching problem on my PC, because I still cant find where K-Wise put in the the same words. So I appologize. I usually will never comment in the manner I commented in; it was my misunderstanding and that you reported. --It didnt make sense to me. Just hit the quote box at the bottom of each post to quote someone.

Kwise-- It was a misunderstanding with report issue, I appologize about that.

www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm

www.barcc.org/thefacts.html

just a couple /\

No problem man. Great links to. Very informative. I'd provide the links I used to write my paper if I remembered them. Hell I'd even provide the paper itself if I had it.

Asta!!

What are you even talking about? Of course you can have an opinion on the subject, but you shouldn't be able to take away my right to choose just because you don't happen to agree with it. And I think that rich fifty year old white men are exactly the wrong people to make many poilcies. Maybe if you tried to understand what I was saying instead of going off on a tanget, you would make more sense.

I didn't say that the decsion should be left solely up to the mother. In fact, I think that the choice should, in most cases, never be the mother's alone. All I'm saying is that the option for abortion should be available.


Didn't I that every situation is different? I agree that what they did was wrong. That was my way of saying that the "a woman carries the baby, therefore the woman has the sole right to decide" agruement is crap.



I don't think it's selfish at all. If I had of given my child up for adoption I couldn't be assured of it's welfare. How do you know that he/she would have gone to a loving home?


No, your opinion I can respect, you telling me what my opinion should be is another matter. You can disagree with me all day, but when you try to tell me how I should live my life because of what you think is right...that's what I have the problem with.

Thanks Sun Tzu!

Me and my gf talked about it, if she ever would get pregnant we both want to keep the child. We are both 21 years old now but it probably would be a different situation if we were 16. I think it's a disiccion you take together (maybe even with your parents).