Abortion - Whats your take?- Have you? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

skippy · 10-25-2003, 03:23 AM

PLEASE READ ALL OF THIS BEFORE POSTING... THANKS.

I am curious about abortion and how people cope with having had one. This question is definitely open to "father" as well as "mother".

I know that for some it doesn't "stretch" their values to have had an abortion and they are peaceful about it afterward.

For some the abortion was an act that they have a hard time coping with afterward. For some the pain or regret lasts for the rest of their life.

What do you think about abortion? (no judging each other please)

If you have had one, did it conflict with your core values?

if so, how have you been able to cope?

Recent events in my life make it necessary to ask.

Fallon · 10-25-2003, 04:44 AM

My S.O. has never had one thankfully, but my sister did. She was going out with this guy for a few years, she was around 25ish, and already had three kids and on birth control. Her boyfriend threw out her birth control, then basically raped her because she wasn't willing to have sex with him at that point. Because of it, she got pregnant.
I agree with what she did, plain and simple. I don't think that if the person gets pregnant because of rape they should keep it. I agree to abortion in other situations and I'll answer them in another post if wanted.

skippy · 10-25-2003, 04:49 AM

Thanks Fallon,

I appreciate your candor. I know that I am haveing a hard time with an abortion that happened recently. It was my daughter who had it and she is fairly religious. I am sure that it is going to give her a hard time for quite a while. For me Personally I am just glad that she is safe. I just know, based on her and her mother, that this issue is going to be a tough one to deal with.

Thanks again.

ninety09 · 10-25-2003, 04:54 AM

I'm pro-choice.

If some people are stupid enough to have unprotected sex, they will most likely be lousy parents.. an abortion would be better.

SabrinaFair · 10-25-2003, 05:48 AM

I'm a nineteen year old who practices safe sex....two methods of birth control, just in case. If, in some cruel twist of fate, I were to become pregnant, I can't say if I would or wouldn't have an abortion. I consider myself "pro-choice", but it's just that...a personal choice. I can't right-out say that yes, I would have an abortion, or no, I would not. However, I believe that abortion should be legally available. Whole hell of a lot safer than a wire hanger or throwing a woman down a flight of stairs. There are other reasons I believe in abortion, but this pretty much sums up my feelings.

GuttersnipeXL · 10-25-2003, 07:33 AM

Personally. I am pro choice. It is completely up to the woman to make her own decisions about her body. I don't believe anyone else has a say in the matter.

On a side note..one of my friends recently had one as a result of forced intercourse, and would you believe that her health insurance covered it?

chavos · 10-25-2003, 07:44 AM

difficult...while i want to have respect for a woman's sovergienty over her body, i don't know if i can really say that she has a right to abort a child the father wants (assuming the sex was consesual.) I just know that personally, i would have a very difficult time accepting my child was going to be killed and that i could do nothing to stop it....

So i guess i'm agnostic about it in general, provided it is available in cases of rape, incest, or the health of the mother being in jeopardy.

lurkette · 10-25-2003, 09:32 AM

I think at this point I would have a very hard time aborting a fetus that was Ratbastid's. It would be a different story if I was just in a casual relationship, or if the pregnancy was a result of rape. I think every woman has to draw that line for herself, though. I really don't believe life begins at conception (that is, I'm not sure a fetus has a soul till it's born), but I imagine conception alone might be enough for some people to start relating to a fetus as a potential if not an actual human being. Easier to do if you're in love with the father.

Semi-Normal · 10-25-2003, 09:49 AM

I can see both sides of the the whole issue, and I think both have good arguments. Although I know where I stand on it, I think it's something of a "moral grey area".

I think that if the woman was raped, or if having the baby is likely to seriously harm her in some way, an abortion is justified. If the pregnancy is the result of carelessness, ie. not using birth control then I'm against aborting it. If the parent(s) is/are unwilling/unable to support a child, then I think they should put it up for adoption. If it's the result of birth control not working for whatever reason, then I'm not really sure. I'd probably lean towards anti-abortion in this case, again, I think adoption would be a better alternative.

numist · 10-25-2003, 09:56 AM

my g/f and I went over this in detail when we started being active together.

My stance is this: I'm not going anywhere, even though I had a hand in it, I have to live with it. Half of it would be my fault and I would have to live with the consequences. On the other hand, its her body, and she is carrying the child. If she has my child, I will do my part to bring it up. If she chooses to abort (which she says she would do, if it were to happen before we get married, which wont be for a long time yet), then I will live with that choice as well.

Ive seen too many cases where people who are pro-life had to live with the man who made them pregnant running away, and them having to raise this child on their own. The men involved in this are spineless and irresponsible, and the women have thrown their lives away.

Another case for this is a case of my friend, who got pregnant off rape, by far the best argument for abortion that I have ever seen. My g/f also went over this possibility with me - my answer was the same.

I dont think that we, as men, have any right to enforce or create rules about abortion. Until we have to go through something like that (either having the child or aborting it), we havent got a single right, no matter how religious or moral we may be.

My story, in short version.

ARTelevision · 10-25-2003, 11:37 AM

I've helped friends obtain abortions and have no problem with it at all. I see it as entirely the choice of the person who is pregnant. If she wants to include the father-to-be in her decision, that is commendable.

If you don't want to have a child - you shouldn't be forced to have one.
For me, it's as simple as that.

seretogis · 10-25-2003, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ARTelevision
If you don't want to have a child - you shouldn't be forced to have one.
For me, it's as simple as that.

If someone doesn't want to have a child, why are they putting their hoo-hoo in a female's hee-hee without protection?

At what [ultimately, arbitrary] point is an unborn child not just "part of the mother", but itself, a life which needs to be protected from harm?

ARTelevision · 10-25-2003, 12:23 PM

Yes, seretogis, that's the type of fascinating and significant question those who make our laws get paid to resolve. I believe in the division of labor in a society and so do not see a need to have opinions about every detail of every issue that comes down the pike.

I'm well aware of how this issue gets diced and sliced in continual debate. I'm not a fan of endless debate when beliefs are involved. I see it as individuals having their own opinions and that is fine with me. When it comes down to making policies about things like this, I accept the decisions of democratically elected legislatures.

thenewguy · 10-25-2003, 02:21 PM

I used to think that abortion was okay until I got my wife pregnant. The medical people started asking us questions about whether or not we wanted to have any genetic testing done. The theory is that it is possible to predict (sometimes with a fairly high accuracy rate) the possibility of a genetic defect in a fetus that will lead to some awful condition.

When they asked us about the testing we talked and realized that we weren't going to terminate the pregnancy under any circumstances - it was planned and we intended to follow through with it. I didn't know until then that I was opposed to my wife getting an abortion. Previously, I would say that the choice to terminate a pregnancy was the sole perogative of the pregnant woman. Today I feel differently and, fortunately for me, my wife supports my point of view.

Having said all that, I will also say that everyone needs to live with their choices and if someone else chooses to have an abortion, I will be available to support them. I have spent time with women following the procedure and tried to be as comforting as possilbe because I thought it was a horribly hard decision to make and a physically uncomfortable/painful one also. Good luck to you and your daughter skippy.

krwlz · 10-25-2003, 03:32 PM

Personaly, (im a guy) I gotta say that I would be more or less pro choice. I'm not against it, and I don't care if other people do it, so...

If I was the guy though, there is no way in hell that I would support that. None, whatsoever.

virginkiller69 · 10-25-2003, 06:23 PM

i'm pro-choice but i dont think its right to use abortion as birth control. its a good thing for certain situations like rape or to save the mother. personaly i wouldnt have my wife/girlfriend have an abortion cause god can use every1 for good and theres other ways out like adoption.

anleja · 10-25-2003, 07:25 PM

I myself would try to avoid my significant other getting an abortion, I feel it would be a decision that would bear down on me my entire life. I would never be judgemental against anyone who did decide to have it done, they probably need support to get past the pain, shunning them will do no good.

One of my best friends got his girlfriend pregnant, and she had an abortion She didn't feel she was ready. And what do you know, less than 2 months later she was pregnant again. I'm happy she is keeping this one, but she feels regretful for deciding to get an abortion in the first place.

I'm happy to see that this post appears to be pretty civil. I guess it proves we do have grown-ups on this board.

K-Wise · 10-25-2003, 08:22 PM

I am HIGHLY pro-life. I deep down in my heart believe that abortion is murder...because thats what it is as hard as it is to accept.

Quote:

Originally posted by ninety09
I'm pro-choice.

If some people are stupid enough to have unprotected sex, they will most likely be lousy parents.. an abortion would be better.

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with that statement. Killing the child does not make it better off. Adoption does. I don't see how never allowing the child to ever be (breathe, think, decide, learn, love, etc.) is making it better off? It's selfishness is all it is, it's them (the parents) trying to convenience themselves and make themselves "better off" not the child. I think this whole philosophy of "Oh it's her body it's her choice" is bullshit. It was her choice whether or not to have unprotected sex or not....not whether or not a child should live or die. I highly agree with the government being able to make these decisions....because the child himself can not and it should be their decision whether they live or die not their irresponsible parents decision and since they can't decide for themselves the government should be allowed to do that for them because if they could, they would want to live and they would choose to live if it were possible. Do you people even know how an abortion is performed? They drill a hole into the childs heads and suck out all of it's brain tissue...then after that it's thrown into embalming fluid or a trash can. Theres no respectability and dignity to their departure. They aren't burried or cremated like many of you would like to be when you die. Now in the case of empregnation as the result of a rape I'm torn....it's a very sensitive subject because they of course had no choice or say in the matter of course not every situation is the same....in the event of them walking alone and a total stranger jumping out of the bushes and forcing themselves upon the woman I would be extremely sensitive to their needs...I of course would want the child to live out of my own personal compassion but she shouldn't have to be forced in that situation and I believe the law should provide some sort of exception in these cases. However, many times rape is the result of the woman being somewhere they know better than to be. Like sneaking out of their parents house with their boyfriend when they know they shouldn't with the intention of having sex and then getting second thoughts and ending up being raped. Though I feel remorse for them they should have known better than to do that and some of the fault is theirs though not entirely theirs. Also if they decide to go to a party and get completely shit faced and pass out and get raped that way....Thats why you shouldn't go and get drunk! Thats why you don't go out and be in a private place with a man you know you can't trust yet! I mean if you think you know them well then it's not your fault at all, not even in the slightest but if not then take some responsibility when need be. Also do you know that the majority of these pregnancies as the result of rape happen because the victim fails to report the rape on time before they have any chance to perform any preventative procedures on the victims? I mean I undestand you've been through a tramatic experiance but you aren't doing anyone (including yourself) any benefit by not reporting these rapes when they occur and on top of the offenders being allowed to roam the streets and rape again terminating a life as well. I might seem a tad bold and cold-hearted in these statements but you have to agree with me on some of these. Because it's not just any little thing it's a life. A life that should be taken seriously. I can't stand these women who have sex and sex and sex and then get pregnant and cry and cry because they couldn't provide for it or they don't want to provide and care for it and then try and make you feel sorry for them. Bullshit no fuckin way sister you'll get no sympathy from me what so ever! Thats what you get thats why you shouldn't be having unprotected sex when you know the consequences. Those women make me sick....especially some who've had several abortions...who the hell do you think you are? I do apologize if I have offended anyone with my statements but I am very sensitive about this subject and that is how I truely feel and nothing anyone can say or do could change my mind about that. And if you're the father and you're pressuring your wife/gf to have an abortion be a fuckin man and except your responsibility!

Asta!!

EDIT: I also forgot to mention the case of a birth being terminal. In which case the baby could be born but the mother would die...I don't know if I have a complete and firm opinion about this I just know that if I were the husband it would be deeply painful having to part either and I guess thats all I'll say about that.

MSD · 10-25-2003, 08:53 PM

K-Wise, I'd like to clarify and say that what you described is a partial-cirth abortion, and I think that the procedure is nothing other than murder.

As for me, I draw the line at the point that the fetus develops its own nervous system. To me, that is a perfect balance between my scientific and medical arguments and my religious and spiritual side. In case of rape, I think that the ideal solution is a screening to rule out pre-existing pregnancy, then the use of a morning-after pill.

I strongly favor adoption over abortion, but I don't think that it should be the decision of anyone except the parents.

K-Wise · 10-25-2003, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
K-Wise, I'd like to clarify and say that what you described is a partial-cirth abortion, and I think that the procedure is nothing other than murder.

Thank you for refreshing my mind on that. I had forgotten the particular type so rather than make one up or put what I think it was I chose not to instead. I'm not sure how common that form is but I'm sure it's more common than I'd like. Probably the most common are done through pills early on. I'm not comfortable with either though actually. Kinda hard to have an opinion on a sort of thing like this cause someone will always have something to say about it that challenges your belief or forces you to make an exception....I believe that it is a life and life is sacred but any naturalist could call me a hypocrite cause I think thats murder but I love eggs for breakfast which is kinda silly I guess but still ya know. Eh.....yeah

Asta!!

matt_mll · 10-25-2003, 09:48 PM

I was partner to an abortion once. It has mixed effects on me. I was to young at the time (still am) to even be realistically thinking about raising a kid. My g/f certainly wasn't a very mature person.

I still think about it every now and then. I wonder what I would be like if we kept him/her, how life would be different. I am thankful we didn't, but I have the date of the abortion permanantly etched into my mind.

The decision to get the abortion was certainly a tough one to make. We went back and fourth for about a week. Eventually it became clear what the best course of action was. I am thankful that my g/f was so strong during that time.

Afterwards was tough for a bit, but we ended stronger. It showed us that there was no obsticle we couldn't work through together.

Phaenx · 10-26-2003, 12:11 AM

I think cripples and mentally retarded children should be clubbed at birth. Never had any kids myself, after college once I can support and raise them like they require then sure, I'll look into it.

Mael · 10-26-2003, 12:45 AM

i'm very pro-choice. until i'm with a girl in a serious relationship, if i were to get someone pregnant, i'd want her to get an abortion. but... if she chose to keep it, i'd make sure i'd keep up my end as a father (whether i marry her or not). i'd let her know my feelings on it, and support her decision either way.

iktoweya · 10-26-2003, 12:59 AM

im hardcore pro life but its just my beliefs i dont think there is any reason for me to go into them as most have been stated and it would only be redundant information

manalone · 10-26-2003, 05:04 AM

I am pro choice.

I have to agree with ART that it is preferable that the father be involved. I would go further and say it is highly desirable.

Look, I don't want people to have heart surgery, I would prefer them not to need it.

I would also prefer people not have abortions. They contain an element of risk, like all medical procedures.

I will say that the "women's issue" argument is not to my mind valid. To say that men are not involved in reproduction is unfair to those who care and encouragement to those who would drop their seed and run.

chavos · 10-26-2003, 07:08 AM

Kwise:

Quote:

However, many times rape is the result of the woman being somewhere they know better than to be

This statement could make me very, very angry. So i'm going to try my damndest to be civil and say that after having to repeat the line "IT WAS NOT YOUR FAULT!" to a young woman more times than i can count, that such statements that take the responsibility away from the rapist and on to the victim are EXREMELY harmful.

vermin · 10-26-2003, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
I think cripples and mentally retarded children should be clubbed at birth. Never had any kids myself, after college once I can support and raise them like they require then sure, I'll look into it.

If you truly believe this and aren't just posting it to see the reactions then I suggest a vasectomy and/or becoming a monk.

For the most part I agree with K-Wise, but if you've had one and are miserable about it, keep in mind that God forgives all. Guilt is a tool of evil and not something you should wallow in. We all make mistakes.

jbrooks544 · 10-26-2003, 04:10 PM

We had one early in our relationship. It would not have been good for anyone to have a child when we weren't ready for it. Painful, yes - but pragmatism dictated our course.

It did not conflict with our "core" values, but of course it is not a happy thing and it will always be with us. I think it is different for men - I am easier able to just compartmentalize these things and not be sentimental. I know my wife has deeper feelings about it but she doesnt' talk about it.

I do not like how the political right has coopted the language to unfairly frame the issue. What am I? "Pro Death"?

theguyondacouch · 10-26-2003, 06:54 PM

I pretty much agree with k Wise, and Phaenx, if you truly believe that, you should be clubbed.

Phaenx · 10-26-2003, 07:42 PM

I truly believe it, and you're welcome to try.

Sun Tzu · 10-26-2003, 09:04 PM

I may miss a few, but heres what I see as points both sides (prolife/choice) agree on:

An ovum is not a human person.
Similarly a spermatozoa is a form of life, but its not a person either.
At or shortly after conception, a fertilized ovum is a form of human life.
An embryo is a form of human life.
A fetus is a form of human life.
A newborn baby is a form of human life.
A newborn baby is a human person.
Somewhere during the nine months between the ovum-spermatozoa stage and the newborn baby that breathes on its own is when human personhood begins.

The only real difference between pro-lifers and pro-choicers involves the question when does human personhood begins.

Life and personhood are two very different matters. The human ovum (egg) is already clearly alive when it enters the fallopian tubes, many hours or days before it has the opportunity to be fertilized. Women release one about each month between puberty and menopause - a few hundred in a lifetime. Almost all of these are destined to die and be ejected from the body. Unless a couple is having difficulty conceiving, very little thought is given to these hundreds of deaths. Although the ovum is a form of life, there is a consensus that it is not a human person. They are not even considered by scientists to be human organisms.

Hundreds of millions of male sperm are liberated during a typical sexual encounter. A few week's worth of ejaculations from a single male would theoretically provide sufficient sperm to double the earth's human population, if each were used to fertilize a separate ovum. Sperm are also clearly alive. Viewing them under a microscope reveals them to be energetic swimmers. Essentially all of these will die within days. Again, unless infertility is a problem, little attention is given to these deaths. An average man produces thousands of sperm a second. At most, a very few during his lifetime will contribute to the formation of a baby. The rest will die. Few men are consciously aware of the loss. Although sperm are very much alive and kicking, there is a consensus that they are not human persons; they are not human organisms.

Something to consider:
A skin scraping of a child or adult contains a very large number of living, single cells; each has the same unique human DNA code as does the human from which it came. Scottish scientists have been able to start with a cell removed from the mammary tissue of a sheep, inject it into a sheep ovum whose DNA has been removed, and produce "Dolly," a new sheep who is genetically identical to her "parent." This same procedure has been replicated for many other mammals. It is likely that the same procedure can be used to clone a human. DNA from skin scraping, or a swab of the inside of the mouth, or a hair follicle could be used to produce exact twins of the donor human. Wired Magazine for 2001-JAN predicted that human cloning would happen during the year 2001, even though it violates the medical ethic regulations of many countries. Since a just-fertilized egg contains human DNA information as does a hair follicle, they presumably should both be given the same status. We don't consider hair follicles, skin scrapings or swabs from mouths to be a human person. Skeptics might argue that we should not look upon fertilized ova as persons either.

So where does personhood begin? On the mating? THe subconscious thought of the male and female parents? WHere in the cycle of pregnancy:

About 12 days from conception when pregnancy begins. i.e. when the fertilized ovum has developed to the blastocyst stage and has attached itself to the lining of the uterus.
About two weeks from conception when a yellow streak develops in the embryo. This will later become the neural tube which will be protected by the backbone. Once this develops, it is impossible for the embryo to split into a pair of identical twins. The concept of personhood implies a single entity; twins would be two persons. Before this stage of development, the embryo may still split and become two persons.
3 weeks from conception when the embryo is about 2 mm long and has started to develop visible external body parts.
4 weeks when its heart starts to beat.
6 weeks from conception, when brain waves can be first sensed.
2 months, when the fetus has lost its neck structures which
resemble gill slits, and its tail. Its face resembles that of a primate.
3 months the fetus begins to "look like" a baby. The recent development of high resolution 3-D ultrasound equipment provides incredibly detailed pictures of the fetus at this stage. These photographs are convincing many people that the fetus is a human person at this stage because it looks like one. 9
4 months when the fetus' face has developed to the point where one can tell one fetus from another.
About 24 weeks, when the fetus becomes viable, (i.e. able to live outside the womb)
6 months or later, when the fetal brain's higher functions become operational. Scientists have: " measured brain-wave patterns like those during dreaming at 8 months gestation."

IMO the length of the first trimester is ample time to decide whether or not to terminate the pregancy. Once strong brain activity can be measured if an abortion is desired at least a strong support system and counseling should be given, because I believe thats where uniqueness begins. Outside of medical reasons I dont understand partial birth abortions and firmly disagree with them. Its hard for me to understand how the mother waited up until that point, and if it were my child Id do everything I could to prevent that from occuring.

The bottom line even though I may not agree; it is the mothers choice, period. How do you force a woman to have a baby that doesnt want one? THe reasons: of how and why that happend become secondary issues, no matter how much anyone other than the mother feels.

K-Wise · 10-26-2003, 09:53 PM

^ Pretty intelligent there. You know quite a bit about biology and genetics. You a medical personel of some sort like a doctor or some shit? Or do ya just read a lot/studying it as a profession?

Asta!!

K-Wise · 10-26-2003, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chavos
Kwise:

This statement could make me very, very angry. So i'm going to try my damndest to be civil and say that after having to repeat the line "IT WAS NOT YOUR FAULT!" to a young woman more times than i can count, that such statements that take the responsibility away from the rapist and on to the victim are EXREMELY harmful.

Oh and thank you for trying to be civil about it. Now let me give you a hypothetical situation.....say you leave for work or for the weekend and you decide not to lock up your house or set your alarm system or anything and you return home to find all of your belongings stolen from you. Now though it's very hurtful and upsetting....all around pretty traumatic for you, wouldn't you have to admit to yourself that maybe you were just a little too careless and that maybe some of it was in part your fault? Now like I said if she had no control over it it's very sad and no fault is hers at all but if the rape was the result of carelessness on the womans part it could have been avoided and a life wouldn't have ever had to be destroyed that would have never had to been in the first place had a little bit more care been taken. Of course it's sad and very heartwrecking for the woman especially and the man who has to help them cope but I say things like that because they need to learn....and need to take life more seriously and be more careful with it too because you only get one....and you can't go back and change something once it's done it's done. You understand where I'm going with this right? I'm not trying to be insensitive or callous. I know I'd feel aweful if I had to consult a rape victim and I would try to comfort them in any way possible but sugar coating, beating around the bush, failing to except responsibility, etc. are not going to and will not ever help the problem any. Why do you think parents talk to us and place so much importance on not going to unsafe places, being careful, not doing drugs, always using protection, saving yourself, etc. ? It's because they'd like to protect us from having such hardships in life as best as they can....because they care and they are good parents. We all know they can't protect us from everything so we have to learn to protect ourselves, take precautions, and hopefully we won't have to be placed in a situation where we are helpless. Once again I'm not trying to offend anyone but admit it......I'm at least 50% right about most of this wouldn't you agree?

Asta!!

Sun Tzu · 10-27-2003, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by K-Wise
Oh and thank you for trying to be civil about it. Now let me give you a hypothetical situation.....say you leave for work or for the weekend and you decide not to lock up your house or set your alarm system or anything and you return home to find all of your belongings stolen from you. Now though it's very hurtful and upsetting....all around pretty traumatic for you, wouldn't you have to admit to yourself that maybe you were just a little too careless and that maybe some of it was in part your fault? Now like I said if she had no control over it it's very sad and no fault is hers at all but if the rape was the result of carelessness on the womans part it could have been avoided and a life wouldn't have ever had to be destroyed that would have never had to been in the first place had a little bit more care been taken. Of course it's sad and very heartwrecking for the woman especially and the man who has to help them cope but I say things like that because they need to learn....and need to take life more seriously and be more careful with it too because you only get one....and you can't go back and change something once it's done it's done. You understand where I'm going with this right? I'm not trying to be insensitive or callous. I know I'd feel aweful if I had to consult a rape victim and I would try to comfort them in any way possible but sugar coating, beating around the bush, failing to except responsibility, etc. are not going to and will not ever help the problem any. Why do you think parents talk to us and place so much importance on not going to unsafe places, being careful, not doing drugs, always using protection, saving yourself, etc. ? It's because they'd like to protect us from having such hardships in life as best as they can....because they care and they are good parents. We all know they can't protect us from everything so we have to learn to protect ourselves, take precautions, and hopefully we won't have to be placed in a situation where we are helpless. Once again I'm not trying to offend anyone but admit it......I'm at least 50% right about most of this wouldn't you agree?

Asta!!

Im out of the medical field now, I was working in anti-aging medicine; but I didnt have those details as second nature I just did a google search and found a guide that would possibly add another helpful element in the personal quest to find the beginning of personhood.

K-Wise · 10-27-2003, 03:48 AM

Amazing the type a shit you can learn on the internet

Asta!!

manalone · 10-27-2003, 04:29 AM

Sun-Tzu makes a well argued point. (wow, tactical genius, author of the seminal work on large campaigns and former medic? Godhead awaits

)

I just feel that semantic arguments about when foetuses become "people" or not are debates about angels on the heads of pins.

To me, the point is this: Respect for life evolves from making responsible decisions about other people. If the responsible decision is to abort, so be it. If not, don't.

But let's not pussy-foot, it amounts to taking actions to end a potential person. However, so is contraception.

I prefer to think that people should be free to make the appropriate decision.

Incidentally, you could also not have sex.

Call me crazy, but... well, it's the only way to avoid the matter...

skippy · 10-27-2003, 05:42 AM

Thanks for the great debate! Very interesting.

I originally created this post because I was interested in finding answers to my own peace about an other wise intolerably painful situation.

Thanks to Sun Tzu, Fallon, Sabrina Fair and JBrooks for really reading fully, the opening statement. You advice helps a lot in makeing a reasonable decision. I actually feel a lot better thanks to your information.

Thats why I love the TFP... The people

Thanks again

mml · 10-27-2003, 01:58 PM

I came across this thread a bit late, but as someone who has been through this, I thought I would share. In college, a broken condom resulted in an unwanted pregnancy. My girlfriend and I discussed all of the possibilities. She came to the conclusion that she was going to have an abortion. It was a difficult time, but she truly felt that it was the right decision. I felt then and still do that she had the lead decision in the matter. I was there to support her no matter what she decided. We worked our way through it and I know that she still believes it was the right decision at the time.

We both have had children since then, and both of us had some hard times after our children were born, wondering "what if?". I do believe in the right to choose, but it is a serious, vitally important decision.

Now, as far as this comment:

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
I think cripples and mentally retarded children should be clubbed at birth. Never had any kids myself, after college once I can support and raise them like they require then sure, I'll look into it.

I hope that this is some sort of sad, pathetic attempt a humor, but pardon me if I tell you to fuck off! I hope you never become a father unless you grow up a little more. I guess I should have clubbed my brilliant, beautiful 3 year old (who is already begining to read) because he is crippled and doesn't walk.

DownwardSpiral · 10-27-2003, 02:32 PM

I say it's the woman's decision. If she dosen't want a baby she shouldent be forced to have one, only to give it up for adoption. It would be easier on the mother to stop it before it's born, because once that baby comes out she may grow attached to it, and if she gives it up right away that will tear her apart inside. If she wants the abortion let her, her call.

31Friction · 10-27-2003, 02:39 PM

ive got a couple friends who had abortions. neither of them just *got over it*. they all still think about it. if I were to come into the situation I would probably want it done if it was done very early in pregnancy just because I am not at a point in my life to give a child of mine the best. Untimately I would leave it up to the girl though. if she wanted to have the baby I would support her and remain with her during pregnancy and for the rest of our childs life.

10-25-2003, 03:23 AM	#1 (permalink)
skippy Banned	Abortion - Whats your take?- Have you? PLEASE READ ALL OF THIS BEFORE POSTING... THANKS. I am curious about abortion and how people cope with having had one. This question is definitely open to "father" as well as "mother". I know that for some it doesn't "stretch" their values to have had an abortion and they are peaceful about it afterward. For some the abortion was an act that they have a hard time coping with afterward. For some the pain or regret lasts for the rest of their life. What do you think about abortion? (no judging each other please) If you have had one, did it conflict with your core values? if so, how have you been able to cope? Recent events in my life make it necessary to ask. Last edited by skippy; 10-26-2003 at 10:24 AM..

10-25-2003, 05:48 AM	#5 (permalink)
SabrinaFair Junkie Location: Louisville, KY	I'm a nineteen year old who practices safe sex....two methods of birth control, just in case. If, in some cruel twist of fate, I were to become pregnant, I can't say if I would or wouldn't have an abortion. I consider myself "pro-choice", but it's just that...a personal choice. I can't right-out say that yes, I would have an abortion, or no, I would not. However, I believe that abortion should be legally available. Whole hell of a lot safer than a wire hanger or throwing a woman down a flight of stairs. There are other reasons I believe in abortion, but this pretty much sums up my feelings. __________________ "With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy." -Desiderata

10-25-2003, 07:33 AM	#6 (permalink)
GuttersnipeXL Giggity Giggity!! Location: N'York	Personally. I am pro choice. It is completely up to the woman to make her own decisions about her body. I don't believe anyone else has a say in the matter. On a side note..one of my friends recently had one as a result of forced intercourse, and would you believe that her health insurance covered it? __________________ When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. HST

10-25-2003, 09:32 AM	#8 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	I think at this point I would have a very hard time aborting a fetus that was Ratbastid's. It would be a different story if I was just in a casual relationship, or if the pregnancy was a result of rape. I think every woman has to draw that line for herself, though. I really don't believe life begins at conception (that is, I'm not sure a fetus has a soul till it's born), but I imagine conception alone might be enough for some people to start relating to a fetus as a potential if not an actual human being. Easier to do if you're in love with the father. __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

10-25-2003, 09:49 AM	#9 (permalink)
Semi-Normal Insane Location: Christchurch, New Zealand	I can see both sides of the the whole issue, and I think both have good arguments. Although I know where I stand on it, I think it's something of a "moral grey area". I think that if the woman was raped, or if having the baby is likely to seriously harm her in some way, an abortion is justified. If the pregnancy is the result of carelessness, ie. not using birth control then I'm against aborting it. If the parent(s) is/are unwilling/unable to support a child, then I think they should put it up for adoption. If it's the result of birth control not working for whatever reason, then I'm not really sure. I'd probably lean towards anti-abortion in this case, again, I think adoption would be a better alternative. __________________ I'm not lazy, I'm "motivationally challenged."

10-25-2003, 04:44 AM	#2 (permalink)
Fallon Junkie Location: RI	My S.O. has never had one thankfully, but my sister did. She was going out with this guy for a few years, she was around 25ish, and already had three kids and on birth control. Her boyfriend threw out her birth control, then basically raped her because she wasn't willing to have sex with him at that point. Because of it, she got pregnant. I agree with what she did, plain and simple. I don't think that if the person gets pregnant because of rape they should keep it. I agree to abortion in other situations and I'll answer them in another post if wanted.

10-25-2003, 04:49 AM	#3 (permalink)
skippy Banned	Thanks Fallon, I appreciate your candor. I know that I am haveing a hard time with an abortion that happened recently. It was my daughter who had it and she is fairly religious. I am sure that it is going to give her a hard time for quite a while. For me Personally I am just glad that she is safe. I just know, based on her and her mother, that this issue is going to be a tough one to deal with. Thanks again.

10-25-2003, 04:54 AM	#4 (permalink)
ninety09 Flavour of the Weak Location: Canada	I'm pro-choice. If some people are stupid enough to have unprotected sex, they will most likely be lousy parents.. an abortion would be better.

10-25-2003, 07:44 AM	#7 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	difficult...while i want to have respect for a woman's sovergienty over her body, i don't know if i can really say that she has a right to abort a child the father wants (assuming the sex was consesual.) I just know that personally, i would have a very difficult time accepting my child was going to be killed and that i could do nothing to stop it.... So i guess i'm agnostic about it in general, provided it is available in cases of rape, incest, or the health of the mother being in jeopardy.

10-25-2003, 09:56 AM	#10 (permalink)
numist Banned Location: UCSD, 510.49 miles from my love	my g/f and I went over this in detail when we started being active together. My stance is this: I'm not going anywhere, even though I had a hand in it, I have to live with it. Half of it would be my fault and I would have to live with the consequences. On the other hand, its her body, and she is carrying the child. If she has my child, I will do my part to bring it up. If she chooses to abort (which she says she would do, if it were to happen before we get married, which wont be for a long time yet), then I will live with that choice as well. Ive seen too many cases where people who are pro-life had to live with the man who made them pregnant running away, and them having to raise this child on their own. The men involved in this are spineless and irresponsible, and the women have thrown their lives away. Another case for this is a case of my friend, who got pregnant off rape, by far the best argument for abortion that I have ever seen. My g/f also went over this possibility with me - my answer was the same. I dont think that we, as men, have any right to enforce or create rules about abortion. Until we have to go through something like that (either having the child or aborting it), we havent got a single right, no matter how religious or moral we may be. My story, in short version.

10-25-2003, 11:37 AM	#11 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	I've helped friends obtain abortions and have no problem with it at all. I see it as entirely the choice of the person who is pregnant. If she wants to include the father-to-be in her decision, that is commendable. If you don't want to have a child - you shouldn't be forced to have one. For me, it's as simple as that. __________________ create evolution

10-25-2003, 12:23 PM	#13 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Yes, seretogis, that's the type of fascinating and significant question those who make our laws get paid to resolve. I believe in the division of labor in a society and so do not see a need to have opinions about every detail of every issue that comes down the pike. I'm well aware of how this issue gets diced and sliced in continual debate. I'm not a fan of endless debate when beliefs are involved. I see it as individuals having their own opinions and that is fine with me. When it comes down to making policies about things like this, I accept the decisions of democratically elected legislatures. __________________ create evolution

10-25-2003, 02:21 PM	#14 (permalink)
thenewguy Insane Location: West Coast, USA	I used to think that abortion was okay until I got my wife pregnant. The medical people started asking us questions about whether or not we wanted to have any genetic testing done. The theory is that it is possible to predict (sometimes with a fairly high accuracy rate) the possibility of a genetic defect in a fetus that will lead to some awful condition. When they asked us about the testing we talked and realized that we weren't going to terminate the pregnancy under any circumstances - it was planned and we intended to follow through with it. I didn't know until then that I was opposed to my wife getting an abortion. Previously, I would say that the choice to terminate a pregnancy was the sole perogative of the pregnant woman. Today I feel differently and, fortunately for me, my wife supports my point of view. Having said all that, I will also say that everyone needs to live with their choices and if someone else chooses to have an abortion, I will be available to support them. I have spent time with women following the procedure and tried to be as comforting as possilbe because I thought it was a horribly hard decision to make and a physically uncomfortable/painful one also. Good luck to you and your daughter skippy.

10-25-2003, 03:32 PM	#15 (permalink)
krwlz Fledgling Dead Head Location: Clarkson U.	Personaly, (im a guy) I gotta say that I would be more or less pro choice. I'm not against it, and I don't care if other people do it, so... If I was the guy though, there is no way in hell that I would support that. None, whatsoever.

10-25-2003, 06:23 PM	#16 (permalink)
virginkiller69 Loser	i'm pro-choice but i dont think its right to use abortion as birth control. its a good thing for certain situations like rape or to save the mother. personaly i wouldnt have my wife/girlfriend have an abortion cause god can use every1 for good and theres other ways out like adoption.

10-25-2003, 07:25 PM	#17 (permalink)
anleja disconnected Location: ignoreland	I myself would try to avoid my significant other getting an abortion, I feel it would be a decision that would bear down on me my entire life. I would never be judgemental against anyone who did decide to have it done, they probably need support to get past the pain, shunning them will do no good. One of my best friends got his girlfriend pregnant, and she had an abortion She didn't feel she was ready. And what do you know, less than 2 months later she was pregnant again. I'm happy she is keeping this one, but she feels regretful for deciding to get an abortion in the first place. I'm happy to see that this post appears to be pretty civil. I guess it proves we do have grown-ups on this board.

10-25-2003, 08:53 PM	#19 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	K-Wise, I'd like to clarify and say that what you described is a partial-cirth abortion, and I think that the procedure is nothing other than murder. As for me, I draw the line at the point that the fetus develops its own nervous system. To me, that is a perfect balance between my scientific and medical arguments and my religious and spiritual side. In case of rape, I think that the ideal solution is a screening to rule out pre-existing pregnancy, then the use of a morning-after pill. I strongly favor adoption over abortion, but I don't think that it should be the decision of anyone except the parents.

10-25-2003, 09:48 PM	#21 (permalink)
matt_mll Crazy Location: some volcano in the middle of the pacific	I was partner to an abortion once. It has mixed effects on me. I was to young at the time (still am) to even be realistically thinking about raising a kid. My g/f certainly wasn't a very mature person. I still think about it every now and then. I wonder what I would be like if we kept him/her, how life would be different. I am thankful we didn't, but I have the date of the abortion permanantly etched into my mind. The decision to get the abortion was certainly a tough one to make. We went back and fourth for about a week. Eventually it became clear what the best course of action was. I am thankful that my g/f was so strong during that time. Afterwards was tough for a bit, but we ended stronger. It showed us that there was no obsticle we couldn't work through together.

10-26-2003, 12:11 AM	#22 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	I think cripples and mentally retarded children should be clubbed at birth. Never had any kids myself, after college once I can support and raise them like they require then sure, I'll look into it. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

10-26-2003, 12:45 AM	#23 (permalink)
Mael Banned Location: The Hell I Created.	i'm very pro-choice. until i'm with a girl in a serious relationship, if i were to get someone pregnant, i'd want her to get an abortion. but... if she chose to keep it, i'd make sure i'd keep up my end as a father (whether i marry her or not). i'd let her know my feelings on it, and support her decision either way.

10-26-2003, 12:59 AM	#24 (permalink)
iktoweya These pretzels are making me thirsty!! Location: 105B	im hardcore pro life but its just my beliefs i dont think there is any reason for me to go into them as most have been stated and it would only be redundant information __________________ i miss K-Wise

10-26-2003, 05:04 AM	#25 (permalink)
manalone Once upon a time...	I am pro choice. I have to agree with ART that it is preferable that the father be involved. I would go further and say it is highly desirable. Look, I don't want people to have heart surgery, I would prefer them not to need it. I would also prefer people not have abortions. They contain an element of risk, like all medical procedures. I will say that the "women's issue" argument is not to my mind valid. To say that men are not involved in reproduction is unfair to those who care and encouragement to those who would drop their seed and run. __________________ -- Man Alone ======= Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure. Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary.

10-26-2003, 04:10 PM	#28 (permalink)
jbrooks544 Addict	We had one early in our relationship. It would not have been good for anyone to have a child when we weren't ready for it. Painful, yes - but pragmatism dictated our course. It did not conflict with our "core" values, but of course it is not a happy thing and it will always be with us. I think it is different for men - I am easier able to just compartmentalize these things and not be sentimental. I know my wife has deeper feelings about it but she doesnt' talk about it. I do not like how the political right has coopted the language to unfairly frame the issue. What am I? "Pro Death"?

10-26-2003, 06:54 PM	#29 (permalink)
theguyondacouch salmon? Location: Outside Providence	I pretty much agree with k Wise, and Phaenx, if you truly believe that, you should be clubbed. __________________ "Lick my frozen metal ass!"

10-26-2003, 07:42 PM	#30 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	I truly believe it, and you're welcome to try. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

10-26-2003, 09:04 PM	#31 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	I may miss a few, but heres what I see as points both sides (prolife/choice) agree on: An ovum is not a human person. Similarly a spermatozoa is a form of life, but its not a person either. At or shortly after conception, a fertilized ovum is a form of human life. An embryo is a form of human life. A fetus is a form of human life. A newborn baby is a form of human life. A newborn baby is a human person. Somewhere during the nine months between the ovum-spermatozoa stage and the newborn baby that breathes on its own is when human personhood begins. The only real difference between pro-lifers and pro-choicers involves the question when does human personhood begins. Life and personhood are two very different matters. The human ovum (egg) is already clearly alive when it enters the fallopian tubes, many hours or days before it has the opportunity to be fertilized. Women release one about each month between puberty and menopause - a few hundred in a lifetime. Almost all of these are destined to die and be ejected from the body. Unless a couple is having difficulty conceiving, very little thought is given to these hundreds of deaths. Although the ovum is a form of life, there is a consensus that it is not a human person. They are not even considered by scientists to be human organisms. Hundreds of millions of male sperm are liberated during a typical sexual encounter. A few week's worth of ejaculations from a single male would theoretically provide sufficient sperm to double the earth's human population, if each were used to fertilize a separate ovum. Sperm are also clearly alive. Viewing them under a microscope reveals them to be energetic swimmers. Essentially all of these will die within days. Again, unless infertility is a problem, little attention is given to these deaths. An average man produces thousands of sperm a second. At most, a very few during his lifetime will contribute to the formation of a baby. The rest will die. Few men are consciously aware of the loss. Although sperm are very much alive and kicking, there is a consensus that they are not human persons; they are not human organisms. Something to consider: A skin scraping of a child or adult contains a very large number of living, single cells; each has the same unique human DNA code as does the human from which it came. Scottish scientists have been able to start with a cell removed from the mammary tissue of a sheep, inject it into a sheep ovum whose DNA has been removed, and produce "Dolly," a new sheep who is genetically identical to her "parent." This same procedure has been replicated for many other mammals. It is likely that the same procedure can be used to clone a human. DNA from skin scraping, or a swab of the inside of the mouth, or a hair follicle could be used to produce exact twins of the donor human. Wired Magazine for 2001-JAN predicted that human cloning would happen during the year 2001, even though it violates the medical ethic regulations of many countries. Since a just-fertilized egg contains human DNA information as does a hair follicle, they presumably should both be given the same status. We don't consider hair follicles, skin scrapings or swabs from mouths to be a human person. Skeptics might argue that we should not look upon fertilized ova as persons either. So where does personhood begin? On the mating? THe subconscious thought of the male and female parents? WHere in the cycle of pregnancy: About 12 days from conception when pregnancy begins. i.e. when the fertilized ovum has developed to the blastocyst stage and has attached itself to the lining of the uterus. About two weeks from conception when a yellow streak develops in the embryo. This will later become the neural tube which will be protected by the backbone. Once this develops, it is impossible for the embryo to split into a pair of identical twins. The concept of personhood implies a single entity; twins would be two persons. Before this stage of development, the embryo may still split and become two persons. 3 weeks from conception when the embryo is about 2 mm long and has started to develop visible external body parts. 4 weeks when its heart starts to beat. 6 weeks from conception, when brain waves can be first sensed. 2 months, when the fetus has lost its neck structures which resemble gill slits, and its tail. Its face resembles that of a primate. 3 months the fetus begins to "look like" a baby. The recent development of high resolution 3-D ultrasound equipment provides incredibly detailed pictures of the fetus at this stage. These photographs are convincing many people that the fetus is a human person at this stage because it looks like one. 9 4 months when the fetus' face has developed to the point where one can tell one fetus from another. About 24 weeks, when the fetus becomes viable, (i.e. able to live outside the womb) 6 months or later, when the fetal brain's higher functions become operational. Scientists have: " measured brain-wave patterns like those during dreaming at 8 months gestation." IMO the length of the first trimester is ample time to decide whether or not to terminate the pregancy. Once strong brain activity can be measured if an abortion is desired at least a strong support system and counseling should be given, because I believe thats where uniqueness begins. Outside of medical reasons I dont understand partial birth abortions and firmly disagree with them. Its hard for me to understand how the mother waited up until that point, and if it were my child Id do everything I could to prevent that from occuring. The bottom line even though I may not agree; it is the mothers choice, period. How do you force a woman to have a baby that doesnt want one? THe reasons: of how and why that happend become secondary issues, no matter how much anyone other than the mother feels. __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

10-26-2003, 09:53 PM	#32 (permalink)
K-Wise It's All About The Ass!! Location: In a pool of mayonnaise!!	^ Pretty intelligent there. You know quite a bit about biology and genetics. You a medical personel of some sort like a doctor or some shit? Or do ya just read a lot/studying it as a profession? Asta!! __________________ "I love music and it's my parents fault (closing statement)." - Me..quoting myself...from when I said that...On TFP..thats here...Tilted Forum Project *It ain't goodbye, it's see ya later! I'll miss you guys!* - Asta!!

10-27-2003, 03:48 AM	#35 (permalink)
K-Wise It's All About The Ass!! Location: In a pool of mayonnaise!!	Amazing the type a shit you can learn on the internet Asta!! __________________ "I love music and it's my parents fault (closing statement)." - Me..quoting myself...from when I said that...On TFP..thats here...Tilted Forum Project *It ain't goodbye, it's see ya later! I'll miss you guys!* - Asta!!

10-27-2003, 04:29 AM	#36 (permalink)
manalone Once upon a time...	Sun-Tzu makes a well argued point. (wow, tactical genius, author of the seminal work on large campaigns and former medic? Godhead awaits ) I just feel that semantic arguments about when foetuses become "people" or not are debates about angels on the heads of pins. To me, the point is this: Respect for life evolves from making responsible decisions about other people. If the responsible decision is to abort, so be it. If not, don't. But let's not pussy-foot, it amounts to taking actions to end a potential person. However, so is contraception. I prefer to think that people should be free to make the appropriate decision. Incidentally, you could also not have sex. Call me crazy, but... well, it's the only way to avoid the matter... __________________ -- Man Alone ======= Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure. Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary.

10-27-2003, 05:42 AM	#37 (permalink)
skippy Banned	Thanks for the great debate! Very interesting. I originally created this post because I was interested in finding answers to my own peace about an other wise intolerably painful situation. Thanks to Sun Tzu, Fallon, Sabrina Fair and JBrooks for really reading fully, the opening statement. You advice helps a lot in makeing a reasonable decision. I actually feel a lot better thanks to your information. Thats why I love the TFP... The people Thanks again

10-27-2003, 02:32 PM	#39 (permalink)
DownwardSpiral The Funeral of Hearts Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .	I say it's the woman's decision. If she dosen't want a baby she shouldent be forced to have one, only to give it up for adoption. It would be easier on the mother to stop it before it's born, because once that baby comes out she may grow attached to it, and if she gives it up right away that will tear her apart inside. If she wants the abortion let her, her call. __________________ "So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending"

10-27-2003, 02:39 PM	#40 (permalink)
31Friction Addict Location: STL, MO	ive got a couple friends who had abortions. neither of them just got over it. they all still think about it. if I were to come into the situation I would probably want it done if it was done very early in pregnancy just because I am not at a point in my life to give a child of mine the best. Untimately I would leave it up to the girl though. if she wanted to have the baby I would support her and remain with her during pregnancy and for the rest of our childs life. __________________ "Saints need sinners." Alan Watts