Abortion - Whats your take?- Have you? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

forkies · 10-27-2003, 03:18 PM

first off, i'd have to say that i have no experience with pregnancy or abortion, so i could have a different reaction when faced with such issues

responding right now i'd have to say i would never opt to do it. but, at the same time, i would never judge someone for doing it because i don't think it's possible to fully understand what another person's situation is

Holo · 10-27-2003, 04:12 PM

I've learned one thing about this topic: you have to recognize ppl disagree, lend your thoughts, and leave it at that.

Regardless of any opinions I still want the option to be there for women, and I'll tell you why. Most pro-lifers say either you shouldn't have sex unless you wanna deal with the consequence or you should use birth control, and then there are the Catholics who don't even allow that so their followers can propagate their congregation.

1:We are human beings...our thoughts are consumed by sex and our sex drives...at least men's minds are. This is why many ads are saturated with sex of some sort. We are sexual animals and being "intelligent" we have learned to have sex as a recreational event as well as a satisfaction of our animal drive. You can't just tell ppl to stop something more ancient and powerful than our brains. Sex is hardwired into us...it's stronger in us than violence yet we are encouraged to view and participate in violent acts of various sorts and discouraged to engage our primal sexual urges. It's moronic to me.

2: Using birth control? That doesn't always work. Rubbers break, humans make errors, and even chemistry is to blame sometimes. A little personal story:

My roommate several years prior used to take her birth control every day religiously...I watched her take it with her coffee in the mornings. I never remember her missing a day. She had no problems for months with her bf. Then she got a yeast infection and used Diflucan as an easy way to cure the infection without creams and whatnot. A single pill cleared up the infection but also nulled her birth control at just the right time. She got pregnant and had to abort since she had taken responsibility to avoid children she didn't want and it happened anyway. Now if abortion was no longer an option she'd be forced to take on a major responsibility she wasn't ready for and wouldn't be able to meet the challenge adequately? I think that's ridiculous myself, and a disservice to the child.

So in closing I am saying each person has their opinion on this...but don't infringe on other's right to make their own decisions because of your opinion. You may just destroy someone's life with a simple opinion one day.

K-Wise · 10-27-2003, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DownwardSpiral
I say it's the woman's decision. If she dosen't want a baby she shouldent be forced to have one, only to give it up for adoption. It would be easier on the mother to stop it before it's born, because once that baby comes out she may grow attached to it, and if she gives it up right away that will tear her apart inside. If she wants the abortion let her, her call.

While I see the logic in your statement I have to acknowledge the possibility that I think she would feel even worse if she terminated the life before it even happens than to birth it and give it away. Because if she births it and gives it away....she can always see it again anyway....because even before it's born they are already somewhat attached to it once they know they have one whether they can provide for it or not. I don't think any of them actually want to terminate it. I think they just feel that they have to...which is sad. Either way they are going to feel a great deal of sadness with their decision but at least with one....there is actually the possibility of a second chance there.

Asta!!

Jonsgirl · 10-27-2003, 10:29 PM

Having had a personal expierence with abortion, I have a few things to say.
1. If you've never had to face it, you can't understand it, and have NO right to dictate what the choice should be for anyone else.
2. The choice should given to every mother, whether they take it or not is up to them. Every situation, every person, every circumstance is different. A body of legistalors, an angry mob, or even a slightly peeved mob, should not be able to make a blanket decsion and take that choice away from them.
3. I never felt like it was "my" decsion. My husband and I talked about every option. It was 100% mutual.
4. I do not regret, or feel in any way saddened, by our decsion. I can live easier with the fact that we have no child than I could with the fact that someone else had the raising and love of our child.
5. I respect all of the opinions and arguements presented here. I may not agree with them, but I respect them. Please have the same repect for mine.

ironman · 10-28-2003, 10:50 AM

I think abortion is a horrible, if not the most atrocious and coward crime there is, as it terminates the life of a total innocent human been (i don't care when anybody believes is the moment the embryo has human rights or personality, that's bull, for my concern since the egg and the sperm got together, there is new life, if you let it grow and develop, it will turn in just another human been, DAMN!!! WE ALL WERE JUST A FERTILIZED EGG ONCE!!!!).
I don't believe any man or woman have any right to terminate there son's life just because "is not the moment", "we were morons", "we were irresponsible", "we were overheated" etc... THAT'S JUST BULL!!!, one must stand against the consequences of his/hers acts. I don't believe in a woman's decision over it's body in this matter, as it is not her life that is gonna be taken, but the unborn's who happen to be living inside her.
I have a car, and i'm it's owner, it's my car dammit!, i can do whatever i want with it, but that simple fact does not give me the right to crash it against a wall while another person is with me in the car. Since i allowed someone else in my car, i'm responsible for both my life and the other's.

seretogis · 10-28-2003, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonsgirl
Having had a personal expierence with abortion, I have a few things to say.
1. If you've never had to face it, you can't understand it, and have NO right to dictate what the choice should be for anyone else.

I'm sorry, but that is a ridiculous argument. Would you also be willing to suggest that only people over the age of 65 should be able to have an opinion on Medicare? Perhaps only rich white males in their fifties should be the only ones allowed to make policy at all? Welcome to America -- even though I won't benefit from such a .. "procedure" .. I can still speak my mind about what I think of it, and rail to stop its abuse. Instead of suggesting such a thing, perhaps you could educate the rest of us as to how it can be justified?

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonsgirl
2. The choice should given to every mother, whether they take it or not is up to them. Every situation, every person, every circumstance is different. A body of legistalors, an angry mob, or even a slightly peeved mob, should not be able to make a blanket decsion and take that choice away from them.

The last I checked, an abortion affects more than just the mother. Because of this, it is not a decision that should be left solely up to the mother.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonsgirl
3. I never felt like it was "my" decsion. My husband and I talked about every option. It was 100% mutual.

I can assure you that this is not the case in every situation. Two friends of mine have had abortions without even telling the father that they were pregnant -- that, to me, is incredibly deceitful.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonsgirl
4. I do not regret, or feel in any way saddened, by our decsion. I can live easier with the fact that we have no child than I could with the fact that someone else had the raising and love of our child.

I'm probably reading this wrong, but that sounded incredibly selfish to me. You're glad that the child is gone, rather than that the child may have been making some other -- grateful -- family happy? What?

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonsgirl
5. I respect all of the opinions and arguements presented here. I may not agree with them, but I respect them. Please have the same repect for mine.

I really don't see how you can suggest that "if you haven't done it, you have NO right to dictate what the choice should be" and then claim to respect others opinions. You can't have it both ways.

Litespeed · 10-28-2003, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by virginkiller69
i'm pro-choice but i dont think its right to use abortion as birth control. its a good thing for certain situations like rape or to save the mother. personaly i wouldnt have my wife/girlfriend have an abortion cause god can use every1 for good and theres other ways out like adoption.

I'm with you. I also support the idea of legal abortion so that the woman who was raped or is already in poor health can get proper care.

On a very personal basis, I don't see how I could get an abortion, even in the case of rape, but I'm the sort who can't even kill a spider. I'm a big fan of adoption. Too many loving couples out there who can't have kids, like my cousin and her hubby.

WireX · 10-28-2003, 03:36 PM

Pro choice bias off the bat, but a friends experience in toe.

I had a female friend who decided to have an abortion after a party she doesn't remember much of (not even sure who the father is, no one wants to fess up) and it destroyed her emotionally, but she knew it would be better for her future.

mr_burns · 10-28-2003, 06:54 PM

I am totaly opposed to abortions. I think that no one person should have the choice to legaly take anothers, unless that person has been proven to only be harmfull to society multiple times. Alot of people say it's the womens right, but is it really thier right to make the decision to end another life? I think that a women has a right to carry a firearm, and kill a rapist trying to hurt her, but not to take the life of an innocent child. Alot of would-be-mothers say that it was "best for the child", but then so did the mother who killed her three children by drowning them in a bathtub. I have only a small amount of sympathy for those who had sex while drunk or on drugs, or at a party. This was your choice to go to the party. I doubt anyone forced you to drink or do drugs. If you are handed something don't drink it. Duh. DOn't forget our high-school classes.

Coolidge · 10-28-2003, 08:58 PM

I really don't know how I would answer this myself, being male, because there's hormones, emotions, and psycological effects of pregnancy, abortion, even adoption that I really couldn't grasp. So I'll let the experts on the subject (women) decide.

I don't know if that's pro-choice or not, I'm just saying that I know I'm not ready to have a child, so I take the proper precautions...

Lasereth · 10-28-2003, 09:33 PM

I'm Pro-Choice 100%. There's not a doubt in my mind that if me and my girlfriend were to have an accident that we would get an abortion ASAP. And I literally mean ASAP. Before it's a human, before it's murder. Ruining two lives because of a simple technology related accident is bullshit. If my girlfriend were to get pregnant, both of us would have to drop out of college, ruining all of the time and money we've put into it, get our own apartment and get jobs with no degree or field experience. If I have the choice of preventing a baby to be born or ruining two lives, then I'll go with protecting my life and my girlfriend's. Having a baby that will ruin our lives is NOT the way I want to think about my future child. We'll have a baby when we're good and ready.

-Lasereth

K-Wise · 10-28-2003, 09:41 PM

^ Protection and abstinence are good ways of acheiving that goal also buddy. Just as effective if not more. And having a baby that will ruin your lives? The baby can't do anything....it's a baby....the only one who can ruin your life is you....yourself. Don't ever forget that.

Asta!!

Crazy/Beautiful · 10-29-2003, 02:02 PM

I can't judge anyone without knowing all the facts, people tend to think of abortion in black or white terms. It's so much more complicated than that! Important thing is you shouldn't judge people, you have no right. You point a finger you got 3 pointing back at you

Crazy/Beautiful · 10-29-2003, 02:04 PM

What happens though if a women was raped, had the baby kept it and took out all her angry from the rape on it?

Crazy/Beautiful · 10-29-2003, 02:14 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phaenx
[B]I think cripples and mentally retarded children should be clubbed at birth. Never had any kids myself, after college once I can support and raise them like they require then sure, I'll look into it.

I just reported you to the moderator. Grow up! Quit trying to get a reaction out of people, get a damn hobby. Yeah so that means Eisenhower should have been clubbed, wheelchair bound ya know, Helen Keller, Oh yeah they thought Eienstien was retarded too, same with Kurt Cobain when he was a child. Mother Theresa had a club foot. Shall I go on? Oh wait yeah these "Cripples" or "retards" have done more than you will ever accomplish in your lifetime and you don't have any disabilites? How's that for a reaction?

Crazy/Beautiful · 10-29-2003, 02:26 PM

Do you people even know how an abortion is performed? They drill a hole into the childs heads and suck out all of it's brain tissue...then after that it's thrown into embalming fluid or a trash can. Theres no respectability and dignity to their departure. They aren't burried or cremated like many of you would like to be when you die.

This is actually know as partial abortion which is in the process of being outlawed. This only happens when the pregency is in it's fifth or fourth month. Also most rape victims tend to have no dignity when left for example in fields on highways.

However, many times rape is the result of the woman being somewhere they know better than to be. Like sneaking out of their parents house with their boyfriend when they know they shouldn't with the intention of having sex and then getting second thoughts and ending up being raped. Though I feel remorse for them they should have known better than to do that and some of the fault is theirs though not entirely theirs. Also if they decide to go to a party and get completely shit faced and pass out and get raped that way....Thats why you shouldn't go and get drunk! Thats why you don't go out and be in a private place with a man you know you can't trust yet!

You sound like you are assuming this is how rape happens alot of the time. Don't juge people based on what you don't know. I think children should be placed up for adoption if the victim is raped, but you seem to be trivilizing the rape. You are giving women a double standard and no women ever asks to be raped. It's fucked up that you turn the blame on the victim rather than the rapist! Women should have the right to go to parties and get fucked up, instead of having to worry about some sick bastard taking advanatge of them! This kind of thinking pattern is what discourages women from telling others they have been raped, they think it is their fault and it's not! Whatever the circumstances are does not give anybody the right to take advantage of anybody else! Because rape happens to boys too. I just think you should rethink your comments, I take them very personally.

Mr Scorcex · 10-29-2003, 05:40 PM

This has all been very insightful, as I currently sit on the fence on this issue.

I'm generally pretty liberal, and an agnostic, but also an ethical vegetarian. Given that, I don't like anything being killed needlessly, humans or animals. I accept that the moment of conception begins human life. As such, I tend to think of abortion as killing, but there are so many more issues to it. Rape cases, cases where children will be born with severe diseases or defects causing pain and preventing a semi-normal life. One must also wonder if the child would really be better of being adopted. Most children in these cases live most of their lives with foster parents, and while I don't deny that there are success, there are a lot of failures.

To a lesser extent, one must consider the quality of life of a child who's parents are high school dropouts and can't properly provide for a child. If I fucked up and got a girl pregnant, would I be able to drop my potentially bright future and work full-time to support a child? I don't know.

There are so many lurking variables that I can't come to a conclusion of my own. Each case needs to be examined individually, and there is no clear cut right or wrong in this issue to me. Thankfully I don't have to deal with it, and hope I'm never in a situation where I would, because it would mean a pretty painful decision either way.

tangledweb · 10-29-2003, 07:33 PM

Just chiming in late...

I was party to an abortion at 18. If I had known then what I know now, I would never have agreed to it and neither would she.

I had bought into the idea that abortion was OK because the child wasn't developed, etc. etc. Being a Chrisitan made this a difficult situation and decision and most of our decision was made out of ignorance and dis-information. While having our first baby (10 years later) we learned TONS about children and their developement in-utero. We made the wrong choice and have had to deal with it.

We made peace with our decision ages ago and I haven't really thought much about it since, until I read your post.

I consider pro-choice to be choosing whether or not to have sex. I believe that anyone who truly looks into the act of abortion with all of the information available today, will see it for what it is. It absolutely SHOULD be available to women in extreme circumstances (rape, incest, etc.) but should not be an easy, available option for everyone.

Life and maturity is all about accepting the consequences of our decisions and learning/growing from them. We shouldn't treat abortion as casually as we sometimes do in society. Having been a party to an abortion, I can't judge anyone or look down on anyone for doing it, but I CAN offer an experienced opinion to anyone considering it.

Bowlcut · 10-29-2003, 08:42 PM

for how conservative ive become lately....i really dont know. im still more personal freedoms.....let the women decide...but i dont know.... im on the fence i guess

Aesik · 10-29-2003, 08:57 PM

People always shout "I'm pro-choice! I should get to choose to have an abortion!"

Well oh-wise-one...didn't you make the choice to have sex and risk pregnancy? Just because you screwed up (pun intended) it does not give you the right to mess with another's life. And yes, a fetus is alive no matter how pro-lifers try to ignore the fact.

The biggest problem with today's society is the lack of individual accountability. You make a decision, you deal with the consequences.

Aesik · 10-29-2003, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lasereth
I'm Pro-Choice 100%. There's not a doubt in my mind that if me and my girlfriend were to have an accident that we would get an abortion ASAP. And I literally mean ASAP. Before it's a human, before it's murder. Ruining two lives because of a simple technology related accident is bullshit. If my girlfriend were to get pregnant, both of us would have to drop out of college, ruining all of the time and money we've put into it, get our own apartment and get jobs with no degree or field experience. If I have the choice of preventing a baby to be born or ruining two lives, then I'll go with protecting my life and my girlfriend's. Having a baby that will ruin our lives is NOT the way I want to think about my future child. We'll have a baby when we're good and ready.

-Lasereth

If you aren't ready to deal with the consequences of having sex and the risk of getting pregnant, then perhaps you aren't ready to have sex period.

Think about it. Everything has its consequences and you can't just blow them off if you make a mistake.

seretogis · 10-29-2003, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aesik
People always shout "I'm pro-choice! I should get to choose to have an abortion!"

Well oh-wise-one...didn't you make the choice to have sex and risk pregnancy? Just because you screwed up (pun intended) it does not give you the right to mess with another's life. And yes, a fetus is alive no matter how pro-lifers try to ignore the fact.

The biggest problem with today's society is the lack of individual accountability. You make a decision, you deal with the consequences.

I agree. You can "choose" not to have a child by not ejaculating inside of a vagina. It's pretty simple.

K-Wise · 10-29-2003, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Crazy/Beautiful
You sound like you are assuming this is how rape happens alot of the time. Don't juge people based on what you don't know. I think children should be placed up for adoption if the victim is raped, but you seem to be trivilizing the rape. You are giving women a double standard and no women ever asks to be raped. It's fucked up that you turn the blame on the victim rather than the rapist! Women should have the right to go to parties and get fucked up, instead of having to worry about some sick bastard taking advanatge of them! This kind of thinking pattern is what discourages women from telling others they have been raped, they think it is their fault and it's not! Whatever the circumstances are does not give anybody the right to take advantage of anybody else! Because rape happens to boys too. I just think you should rethink your comments, I take them very personally.

No I'm not assuming anything. That IS how rape happens alot of the time. It's fact...statistical. So I'm not "judging" anyone based on what I "don't" know but what I do know. Of course no one asks to be raped why would they? But if they put themselves in a possibly questionable situation they shouldn't be surprized if something happens. Thats fact....trying to shield this fact with compassion and "you don't know what you're talking about, how they feel, blah blah blah" doesn't help the situation at all. What I'm saying is more beneficial than saying "It's okay you went and got completely drunk...how were you supposed to know a perve was there....at a party....with beer" It's drunk guys and drunk girls and both parties do a lot of stupid things they regret. Thats like the guy driving drunk afterwards and killing and innocent person walking on the side walk Women should have the right to go to parties and get fucked up, instead of having to worry about some sick bastard taking advanatge of them! Theres a little something called reality....have you met it? It's not whether or not they should have the right...they do have the right...and thats why they have to accept a mistake if one was made. Just because they have the right doesn't mean it couldn't happen. I should be able to walk through Crip territory wearing my favorite red shirt without getting shot but I think of every possibility before I go putting my life in danger and realize hey maybe it's not worth it. If she goes and gets completely drunk it's partially her fault as aweful as the situation may be it is....you have to learn to accept that. She didn't have to drink herself to unconsciousness....she didn't even have to go to a party.....You don't expect some sicko to be there that may take advantage of you and you should. They can drink at home (unless they still live with their parents in which case they have no business drinking in the first place) and they can have a few friends over....friends they can trust. I know plenty a guys and girls who go out and have a good time but they do it with a shred of responsibility. They look out for each other. Drinking and drunk are 2 completely different things....you can tell when yer gonna get drunk there isn't a single frequent drinker who doesn't know his/her limits. They can also take a friend with them to watch out for them just in case some asshole decides to slip them a mickey or something. I know I watch out for my friends whenever we go to parties and if I see some asshole slip something into my friends drink I'm gonna dump it over his head and get him kicked the fuck outta the place. I know you take the comments personally and maybe thats because deep down you know it was a stupid thing you just don't have the heart to tell them....Who does? I know I would have a pretty hard ass time myself but I know deep down it was stupid and I accept that and if it will benefit them in the future I'll remind them to be more careful (not place the blame on them) and keep my eye on them when I can. All you're doing is making excuses for the stupid things we choose to do. You aren't helping anything by doing that and you're never going to help anything by doing that. I mean you say I'm taking the blame off the rapist but is that really what I'm doing? No it's not I'm putting the responsibility in the person who could be victimized again so that they take a little more care next time and the asshole doesn't have someone else to rape. Every single last one of you says the same thing but if ya stay home and lock your door your chances of getting raped by someone you don't know are almost zero....if you do decide to go out but you don't drink and don't go off into a room with some guy/girl you don't know your chances of getting raped are also slightly lower.....if you do decide to drink but not to the point where you become drunk there is a chance someone could slip you something but the chances are still not as high....now if you do get drunk to the point where if you know you keep drinking you're unsure what could happen and you still drink anyway the possibilities are a LOT fucking higher wouldn't you agree? We all gotta grow up sometime ya know. It's a fucked up world we live in and we can't always place the blame on everyone else if we know something could happen and we chance it anyway. When we all have kids of our own we're all gonna think a lot differently about this. Would you want your daughter going off to a party to go and get drunk just so she could have a good time? Or would you worry that some sicko might rape her? You would worry for her because you know that could happen because that is reality that is the sad truth that is what we all come to accept. People expect stupid things to happen when you gather a bunch of drunken people into one room it's common sense. It's not like other misfortunes people face like going to withdraw money and the place being robbed or a kid shooting all his classmates. I think you should stop arguing with me and think about what I'm saying. You know there is a lot of truth to what I'm saying even if you won't admit it. If my arguments were completely misguided I wouldn't have people agreeing with me. The only people who don't are the people that don't want to have to give up the luxery of correcting a mistake by killing it off or people who want to still go out and get drunk and do irresponsible things and not wannat take responsibility for them later. Stop making excuses for everyone and make solutions. Please don't bother PM'ing me about this either cause I'm just gonna tell you the same thing I told you here.

Asta!!

Mael · 10-29-2003, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tangledweb
I consider pro-choice to be choosing whether or not to have sex. I believe that anyone who truly looks into the act of abortion with all of the information available today, will see it for what it is. It absolutely SHOULD be available to women in extreme circumstances (rape, incest, etc.) but should not be an easy, available option for everyone.

could you enlighten us to this information about abortion that would totally change our pro-choice views? cause if you could show me something that would get me to change my views, hell, i'd probably be willing to convert to christianity too. but it's not very bloody likely.

oh, and k-wise, i agree with what your saying about how the victim is partially responsible. cause she happened to be somewhere where she ends up getting raped. i don't think it's really her fault, but she should have thought more about it before going there. here's my problem with what your saying though, and it's got to do with every post you've had about it... you are putting the blame on the victim, and not the rapist. if you had to comfort a victim, you might do a fine job, but based on the way you wrote about it, you seem to look at is as "well, that's what men do, she should have known better." the thing is, she may have known better, and there may have been nothing she could have done about it. also, you're taking all responsibility off of the rapist. and that happens alot. just in the way the news covers it. instead of hearing "man rapes jogger" on the news, it's "lady raped in the park." the unspoken message is that women are at fault, and not the person who committed the crime. using your example of going out of town and leaving hte house unlocked with no alarm on, it's still not the home owners fault. the person who came to rob them didn't know the door was open. he had to go and check it. he may have gone door to door looking for one, and that may be how he chose which house to ultimately rob, but if he didn't find one with unlocked doors, he very llikely would have just forced his entry. if someone's out to do something, the shit's gonna happen no matter how safe the victim tries to be.

Sun Tzu · 10-29-2003, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Crazy/Beautiful

However, many times rape is the result of the woman being somewhere they know better than to be.

And where did this revelational clump of statistical data come from. I hope you have a good repsectable source, because your really stepping on the edge saying something like that.

IMO this rest of that paragraph was as ****** as its opening, but quoting it was enough.

I really dont need to say anymore as it speaks for itself; the only reason Im commenting is because while I may not agree what the member said ( the one you reported to the mods about whose statement you took offense to); I think it takes a certain amount of audacity to make such a complaint; then turn around and make a statement like this.

K-Wise · 10-29-2003, 11:09 PM

Everyone knows the most common form of rape is date rape especially if you've taken a Crime In America or criminal awareness class before. I know I wrote a whole paper about this very subject. Once again I'm not trying to put the blame on anyone I'm trying to tell them that they should be more careful so their mistakes don't ruin their lives as well as a life that will never get to be. I mean he's a rapist...of course the blunt of the fault is his and his alone but women don't have to go and make it any easier for him ya know? Now the example you bring up about a woman jogging and getting raped is not the same thing as what I was talking about. Thats a lot different cause it isn't really the woman doing anything irresponsible like drinking too much she's just trying to take care of her body....she's fully aware of everything. And a locked house is a little bit harder to get into than one that isn't locked. It takes time and noise etc. to break into a house and if the environment isn't right he might just think "Hey well maybe I should keep looking for an easier house" ya know? You say it takes a certain amount of audacity to say what I'm saying but I say it takes a certain amount of backbone. Sometimes ya have to be bold and blunt about something even if it hurts someone rather than just pussy foot around the issue. If a guys unknowingly being an idiotic asshole and does stupid and offensive things without anyone telling him about it cause they're afraid of hurting his feelings or what not he's never gonna change and he's never gonna know....perhaps even one day say the wrong thing to the wrong person. Oh but I guess how dare I tell someone they shouldn't put themselves in harms way? How dare I care about an unborn fetus? How dare I have any concern for a womans well being and tell her that maybe she should be careful someone doesn't hurt her yeah what a rude asshole I must be for that! And who did I report to the mods? What are you talking about I didn't report anyone.

Asta!!

Dibbler · 10-30-2003, 09:30 AM

I just don't think it should be anybody's business, especially the governments to decide the morality of the issue. I consider myself pro-life but that's where it stops. I'm not going to preach to other people. Really, that makes me seem like I'm pro-choice. Now I'm really confused.

I had a girlfriend one time who always told me that she was very pro-life and would NEVER get an abortion. We broke up after a couple of years and both moved on. 6 months later she called and wanted to get together for dinner, which we did. After a couple of hours she finally confesses that she's pregnant from her new boyfriend and wants to borrow some money to get an abortion. I was floored! It just goes to show that people can have very strong views as long as it's somebody else. When it come to you personally all the rules get thrown out.

Crazy/Beautiful · 10-30-2003, 02:47 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sun Tzu

Excuse me Sun Tzu, but I didn't post that I was quoting K-wise if you would have read up a little farther. And arguing against what we had said. Sorry I don't know how to make the groovy little blue box around the quote, so you will know it is one. Don't you read all the posts before posting?

Crazy/Beautiful · 10-30-2003, 02:50 PM

Well K-wise all I can tell you is when a friend of yours gets raped don't say "You should have know better,"

K-Wise · 10-30-2003, 04:02 PM

I totally understand. I will comfort her as best as I can and when I have a daughter of my own some day, I'll tell her about it and the other things I've said here and hopefully she'll make all the right decisions when the decisions really matter.

Asta!!

Sun Tzu · 10-30-2003, 04:55 PM

Crazy I read up and it sounded as though you were agreeing with him. I've realized its a caching problem on my PC, because I still cant find where K-Wise put in the the same words. So I appologize. I usually will never comment in the manner I commented in; it was my misunderstanding and that you reported. --It didnt make sense to me. Just hit the quote box at the bottom of each post to quote someone.

Kwise-- It was a misunderstanding with report issue, I appologize about that.

www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm

www.barcc.org/thefacts.html

just a couple /\

K-Wise · 10-30-2003, 05:20 PM

No problem man. Great links to. Very informative. I'd provide the links I used to write my paper if I remembered them. Hell I'd even provide the paper itself if I had it.

Asta!!

Jonsgirl · 10-30-2003, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
I'm sorry, but that is a ridiculous argument. Would you also be willing to suggest that only people over the age of 65 should be able to have an opinion on Medicare? Perhaps only rich white males in their fifties should be the only ones allowed to make policy at all? Welcome to America -- even though I won't benefit from such a .. "procedure" .. I can still speak my mind about what I think of it, and rail to stop its abuse. Instead of suggesting such a thing, perhaps you could educate the rest of us as to how it can be justified?

What are you even talking about? Of course you can have an opinion on the subject, but you shouldn't be able to take away my right to choose just because you don't happen to agree with it. And I think that rich fifty year old white men are exactly the wrong people to make many poilcies. Maybe if you tried to understand what I was saying instead of going off on a tanget, you would make more sense.

Quote:

The last I checked, an abortion affects more than just the mother. Because of this, it is not a decision that should be left solely up to the mother.

I didn't say that the decsion should be left solely up to the mother. In fact, I think that the choice should, in most cases, never be the mother's alone. All I'm saying is that the option for abortion should be available.

Quote:

I can assure you that this is not the case in every situation. Two friends of mine have had abortions without even telling the father that they were pregnant -- that, to me, is incredibly deceitful.

Didn't I that every situation is different? I agree that what they did was wrong. That was my way of saying that the "a woman carries the baby, therefore the woman has the sole right to decide" agruement is crap.

Quote:

I'm probably reading this wrong, but that sounded incredibly selfish to me. You're glad that the child is gone, rather than that the child may have been making some other -- grateful -- family happy? What?

I don't think it's selfish at all. If I had of given my child up for adoption I couldn't be assured of it's welfare. How do you know that he/she would have gone to a loving home?

Quote:

I really don't see how you can suggest that "if you haven't done it, you have NO right to dictate what the choice should be" and then claim to respect others opinions. You can't have it both ways.

No, your opinion I can respect, you telling me what my opinion should be is another matter. You can disagree with me all day, but when you try to tell me how I should live my life because of what you think is right...that's what I have the problem with.

Crazy/Beautiful · 10-31-2003, 12:18 PM

Thanks Sun Tzu!

supafly · 10-31-2003, 12:49 PM

Me and my gf talked about it, if she ever would get pregnant we both want to keep the child. We are both 21 years old now but it probably would be a different situation if we were 16. I think it's a disiccion you take together (maybe even with your parents).

10-27-2003, 04:12 PM	#42 (permalink)
Holo A Real American	I've learned one thing about this topic: you have to recognize ppl disagree, lend your thoughts, and leave it at that. Regardless of any opinions I still want the option to be there for women, and I'll tell you why. Most pro-lifers say either you shouldn't have sex unless you wanna deal with the consequence or you should use birth control, and then there are the Catholics who don't even allow that so their followers can propagate their congregation. 1:We are human beings...our thoughts are consumed by sex and our sex drives...at least men's minds are. This is why many ads are saturated with sex of some sort. We are sexual animals and being "intelligent" we have learned to have sex as a recreational event as well as a satisfaction of our animal drive. You can't just tell ppl to stop something more ancient and powerful than our brains. Sex is hardwired into us...it's stronger in us than violence yet we are encouraged to view and participate in violent acts of various sorts and discouraged to engage our primal sexual urges. It's moronic to me. 2: Using birth control? That doesn't always work. Rubbers break, humans make errors, and even chemistry is to blame sometimes. A little personal story: My roommate several years prior used to take her birth control every day religiously...I watched her take it with her coffee in the mornings. I never remember her missing a day. She had no problems for months with her bf. Then she got a yeast infection and used Diflucan as an easy way to cure the infection without creams and whatnot. A single pill cleared up the infection but also nulled her birth control at just the right time. She got pregnant and had to abort since she had taken responsibility to avoid children she didn't want and it happened anyway. Now if abortion was no longer an option she'd be forced to take on a major responsibility she wasn't ready for and wouldn't be able to meet the challenge adequately? I think that's ridiculous myself, and a disservice to the child. So in closing I am saying each person has their opinion on this...but don't infringe on other's right to make their own decisions because of your opinion. You may just destroy someone's life with a simple opinion one day. __________________ I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

10-27-2003, 10:29 PM	#44 (permalink)
Jonsgirl Semi-Atomic Location: Home.	Having had a personal expierence with abortion, I have a few things to say. 1. If you've never had to face it, you can't understand it, and have NO right to dictate what the choice should be for anyone else. 2. The choice should given to every mother, whether they take it or not is up to them. Every situation, every person, every circumstance is different. A body of legistalors, an angry mob, or even a slightly peeved mob, should not be able to make a blanket decsion and take that choice away from them. 3. I never felt like it was "my" decsion. My husband and I talked about every option. It was 100% mutual. 4. I do not regret, or feel in any way saddened, by our decsion. I can live easier with the fact that we have no child than I could with the fact that someone else had the raising and love of our child. 5. I respect all of the opinions and arguements presented here. I may not agree with them, but I respect them. Please have the same repect for mine. __________________ Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today, and it won't be you.

10-28-2003, 10:50 AM	#45 (permalink)
ironman Smithers, release the hounds Location: Guatemala, Guatemala	I think abortion is a horrible, if not the most atrocious and coward crime there is, as it terminates the life of a total innocent human been (i don't care when anybody believes is the moment the embryo has human rights or personality, that's bull, for my concern since the egg and the sperm got together, there is new life, if you let it grow and develop, it will turn in just another human been, DAMN!!! WE ALL WERE JUST A FERTILIZED EGG ONCE!!!!). I don't believe any man or woman have any right to terminate there son's life just because "is not the moment", "we were morons", "we were irresponsible", "we were overheated" etc... THAT'S JUST BULL!!!, one must stand against the consequences of his/hers acts. I don't believe in a woman's decision over it's body in this matter, as it is not her life that is gonna be taken, but the unborn's who happen to be living inside her. I have a car, and i'm it's owner, it's my car dammit!, i can do whatever i want with it, but that simple fact does not give me the right to crash it against a wall while another person is with me in the car. Since i allowed someone else in my car, i'm responsible for both my life and the other's. __________________ If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong Last edited by ironman; 10-28-2003 at 10:57 AM..

10-28-2003, 09:33 PM	#51 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	I'm Pro-Choice 100%. There's not a doubt in my mind that if me and my girlfriend were to have an accident that we would get an abortion ASAP. And I literally mean ASAP. Before it's a human, before it's murder. Ruining two lives because of a simple technology related accident is bullshit. If my girlfriend were to get pregnant, both of us would have to drop out of college, ruining all of the time and money we've put into it, get our own apartment and get jobs with no degree or field experience. If I have the choice of preventing a baby to be born or ruining two lives, then I'll go with protecting my life and my girlfriend's. Having a baby that will ruin our lives is NOT the way I want to think about my future child. We'll have a baby when we're good and ready. -Lasereth __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

10-28-2003, 09:41 PM	#52 (permalink)
K-Wise It's All About The Ass!! Location: In a pool of mayonnaise!!	^ Protection and abstinence are good ways of acheiving that goal also buddy. Just as effective if not more. And having a baby that will ruin your lives? The baby can't do anything....it's a baby....the only one who can ruin your life is you....yourself. Don't ever forget that. Asta!! __________________ "I love music and it's my parents fault (closing statement)." - Me..quoting myself...from when I said that...On TFP..thats here...Tilted Forum Project *It ain't goodbye, it's see ya later! I'll miss you guys!* - Asta!!

10-27-2003, 03:18 PM	#41 (permalink)
forkies Tilted	first off, i'd have to say that i have no experience with pregnancy or abortion, so i could have a different reaction when faced with such issues responding right now i'd have to say i would never opt to do it. but, at the same time, i would never judge someone for doing it because i don't think it's possible to fully understand what another person's situation is

10-28-2003, 03:36 PM	#48 (permalink)
WireX Crazy	Pro choice bias off the bat, but a friends experience in toe. I had a female friend who decided to have an abortion after a party she doesn't remember much of (not even sure who the father is, no one wants to fess up) and it destroyed her emotionally, but she knew it would be better for her future.

10-28-2003, 06:54 PM	#49 (permalink)
mr_burns Upright	I am totaly opposed to abortions. I think that no one person should have the choice to legaly take anothers, unless that person has been proven to only be harmfull to society multiple times. Alot of people say it's the womens right, but is it really thier right to make the decision to end another life? I think that a women has a right to carry a firearm, and kill a rapist trying to hurt her, but not to take the life of an innocent child. Alot of would-be-mothers say that it was "best for the child", but then so did the mother who killed her three children by drowning them in a bathtub. I have only a small amount of sympathy for those who had sex while drunk or on drugs, or at a party. This was your choice to go to the party. I doubt anyone forced you to drink or do drugs. If you are handed something don't drink it. Duh. DOn't forget our high-school classes.

10-28-2003, 08:58 PM	#50 (permalink)
Coolidge Tilted	I really don't know how I would answer this myself, being male, because there's hormones, emotions, and psycological effects of pregnancy, abortion, even adoption that I really couldn't grasp. So I'll let the experts on the subject (women) decide. I don't know if that's pro-choice or not, I'm just saying that I know I'm not ready to have a child, so I take the proper precautions...

10-29-2003, 02:02 PM	#53 (permalink)
Crazy/Beautiful Loser Location: In solitude	I can't judge anyone without knowing all the facts, people tend to think of abortion in black or white terms. It's so much more complicated than that! Important thing is you shouldn't judge people, you have no right. You point a finger you got 3 pointing back at you

10-29-2003, 02:04 PM	#54 (permalink)
Crazy/Beautiful Loser Location: In solitude	What happens though if a women was raped, had the baby kept it and took out all her angry from the rape on it?

10-29-2003, 02:14 PM	#55 (permalink)
Crazy/Beautiful Loser Location: In solitude	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phaenx [B]I think cripples and mentally retarded children should be clubbed at birth. Never had any kids myself, after college once I can support and raise them like they require then sure, I'll look into it. I just reported you to the moderator. Grow up! Quit trying to get a reaction out of people, get a damn hobby. Yeah so that means Eisenhower should have been clubbed, wheelchair bound ya know, Helen Keller, Oh yeah they thought Eienstien was retarded too, same with Kurt Cobain when he was a child. Mother Theresa had a club foot. Shall I go on? Oh wait yeah these "Cripples" or "retards" have done more than you will ever accomplish in your lifetime and you don't have any disabilites? How's that for a reaction?

10-29-2003, 02:26 PM	#56 (permalink)
Crazy/Beautiful Loser Location: In solitude	Do you people even know how an abortion is performed? They drill a hole into the childs heads and suck out all of it's brain tissue...then after that it's thrown into embalming fluid or a trash can. Theres no respectability and dignity to their departure. They aren't burried or cremated like many of you would like to be when you die. This is actually know as partial abortion which is in the process of being outlawed. This only happens when the pregency is in it's fifth or fourth month. Also most rape victims tend to have no dignity when left for example in fields on highways. However, many times rape is the result of the woman being somewhere they know better than to be. Like sneaking out of their parents house with their boyfriend when they know they shouldn't with the intention of having sex and then getting second thoughts and ending up being raped. Though I feel remorse for them they should have known better than to do that and some of the fault is theirs though not entirely theirs. Also if they decide to go to a party and get completely shit faced and pass out and get raped that way....Thats why you shouldn't go and get drunk! Thats why you don't go out and be in a private place with a man you know you can't trust yet! You sound like you are assuming this is how rape happens alot of the time. Don't juge people based on what you don't know. I think children should be placed up for adoption if the victim is raped, but you seem to be trivilizing the rape. You are giving women a double standard and no women ever asks to be raped. It's fucked up that you turn the blame on the victim rather than the rapist! Women should have the right to go to parties and get fucked up, instead of having to worry about some sick bastard taking advanatge of them! This kind of thinking pattern is what discourages women from telling others they have been raped, they think it is their fault and it's not! Whatever the circumstances are does not give anybody the right to take advantage of anybody else! Because rape happens to boys too. I just think you should rethink your comments, I take them very personally.

10-29-2003, 05:40 PM	#57 (permalink)
Mr Scorcex Insane Location: Colorado	This has all been very insightful, as I currently sit on the fence on this issue. I'm generally pretty liberal, and an agnostic, but also an ethical vegetarian. Given that, I don't like anything being killed needlessly, humans or animals. I accept that the moment of conception begins human life. As such, I tend to think of abortion as killing, but there are so many more issues to it. Rape cases, cases where children will be born with severe diseases or defects causing pain and preventing a semi-normal life. One must also wonder if the child would really be better of being adopted. Most children in these cases live most of their lives with foster parents, and while I don't deny that there are success, there are a lot of failures. To a lesser extent, one must consider the quality of life of a child who's parents are high school dropouts and can't properly provide for a child. If I fucked up and got a girl pregnant, would I be able to drop my potentially bright future and work full-time to support a child? I don't know. There are so many lurking variables that I can't come to a conclusion of my own. Each case needs to be examined individually, and there is no clear cut right or wrong in this issue to me. Thankfully I don't have to deal with it, and hope I'm never in a situation where I would, because it would mean a pretty painful decision either way.

10-29-2003, 07:33 PM	#58 (permalink)
tangledweb slightly impaired Location: Down South	Just chiming in late... I was party to an abortion at 18. If I had known then what I know now, I would never have agreed to it and neither would she. I had bought into the idea that abortion was OK because the child wasn't developed, etc. etc. Being a Chrisitan made this a difficult situation and decision and most of our decision was made out of ignorance and dis-information. While having our first baby (10 years later) we learned TONS about children and their developement in-utero. We made the wrong choice and have had to deal with it. We made peace with our decision ages ago and I haven't really thought much about it since, until I read your post. I consider pro-choice to be choosing whether or not to have sex. I believe that anyone who truly looks into the act of abortion with all of the information available today, will see it for what it is. It absolutely SHOULD be available to women in extreme circumstances (rape, incest, etc.) but should not be an easy, available option for everyone. Life and maturity is all about accepting the consequences of our decisions and learning/growing from them. We shouldn't treat abortion as casually as we sometimes do in society. Having been a party to an abortion, I can't judge anyone or look down on anyone for doing it, but I CAN offer an experienced opinion to anyone considering it.

10-29-2003, 08:42 PM	#59 (permalink)
Bowlcut Tilted Location: Nashville, TN USA	for how conservative ive become lately....i really dont know. im still more personal freedoms.....let the women decide...but i dont know.... im on the fence i guess __________________ Remember, my opinion is as irrelevant as yours.....

10-29-2003, 08:57 PM	#60 (permalink)
Aesik Tilted	People always shout "I'm pro-choice! I should get to choose to have an abortion!" Well oh-wise-one...didn't you make the choice to have sex and risk pregnancy? Just because you screwed up (pun intended) it does not give you the right to mess with another's life. And yes, a fetus is alive no matter how pro-lifers try to ignore the fact. The biggest problem with today's society is the lack of individual accountability. You make a decision, you deal with the consequences.

10-29-2003, 11:09 PM	#66 (permalink)
K-Wise It's All About The Ass!! Location: In a pool of mayonnaise!!	Everyone knows the most common form of rape is date rape especially if you've taken a Crime In America or criminal awareness class before. I know I wrote a whole paper about this very subject. Once again I'm not trying to put the blame on anyone I'm trying to tell them that they should be more careful so their mistakes don't ruin their lives as well as a life that will never get to be. I mean he's a rapist...of course the blunt of the fault is his and his alone but women don't have to go and make it any easier for him ya know? Now the example you bring up about a woman jogging and getting raped is not the same thing as what I was talking about. Thats a lot different cause it isn't really the woman doing anything irresponsible like drinking too much she's just trying to take care of her body....she's fully aware of everything. And a locked house is a little bit harder to get into than one that isn't locked. It takes time and noise etc. to break into a house and if the environment isn't right he might just think "Hey well maybe I should keep looking for an easier house" ya know? You say it takes a certain amount of audacity to say what I'm saying but I say it takes a certain amount of backbone. Sometimes ya have to be bold and blunt about something even if it hurts someone rather than just pussy foot around the issue. If a guys unknowingly being an idiotic asshole and does stupid and offensive things without anyone telling him about it cause they're afraid of hurting his feelings or what not he's never gonna change and he's never gonna know....perhaps even one day say the wrong thing to the wrong person. Oh but I guess how dare I tell someone they shouldn't put themselves in harms way? How dare I care about an unborn fetus? How dare I have any concern for a womans well being and tell her that maybe she should be careful someone doesn't hurt her yeah what a rude asshole I must be for that! And who did I report to the mods? What are you talking about I didn't report anyone. Asta!! __________________ "I love music and it's my parents fault (closing statement)." - Me..quoting myself...from when I said that...On TFP..thats here...Tilted Forum Project *It ain't goodbye, it's see ya later! I'll miss you guys!* - Asta!!

10-30-2003, 09:30 AM	#67 (permalink)
Dibbler Psycho Location: Initech, Iowa	I just don't think it should be anybody's business, especially the governments to decide the morality of the issue. I consider myself pro-life but that's where it stops. I'm not going to preach to other people. Really, that makes me seem like I'm pro-choice. Now I'm really confused. I had a girlfriend one time who always told me that she was very pro-life and would NEVER get an abortion. We broke up after a couple of years and both moved on. 6 months later she called and wanted to get together for dinner, which we did. After a couple of hours she finally confesses that she's pregnant from her new boyfriend and wants to borrow some money to get an abortion. I was floored! It just goes to show that people can have very strong views as long as it's somebody else. When it come to you personally all the rules get thrown out.

10-30-2003, 02:47 PM	#68 (permalink)
Crazy/Beautiful Loser Location: In solitude	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sun Tzu Excuse me Sun Tzu, but I didn't post that I was quoting K-wise if you would have read up a little farther. And arguing against what we had said. Sorry I don't know how to make the groovy little blue box around the quote, so you will know it is one. Don't you read all the posts before posting?

10-30-2003, 02:50 PM	#69 (permalink)
Crazy/Beautiful Loser Location: In solitude	Well K-wise all I can tell you is when a friend of yours gets raped don't say "You should have know better,"

10-30-2003, 04:02 PM	#70 (permalink)
K-Wise It's All About The Ass!! Location: In a pool of mayonnaise!!	I totally understand. I will comfort her as best as I can and when I have a daughter of my own some day, I'll tell her about it and the other things I've said here and hopefully she'll make all the right decisions when the decisions really matter. Asta!! __________________ "I love music and it's my parents fault (closing statement)." - Me..quoting myself...from when I said that...On TFP..thats here...Tilted Forum Project *It ain't goodbye, it's see ya later! I'll miss you guys!* - Asta!!

10-30-2003, 04:55 PM	#71 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	Crazy I read up and it sounded as though you were agreeing with him. I've realized its a caching problem on my PC, because I still cant find where K-Wise put in the the same words. So I appologize. I usually will never comment in the manner I commented in; it was my misunderstanding and that you reported. --It didnt make sense to me. Just hit the quote box at the bottom of each post to quote someone. Kwise-- It was a misunderstanding with report issue, I appologize about that. www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm www.barcc.org/thefacts.html just a couple /\ __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking* Last edited by Sun Tzu; 10-30-2003 at 08:46 PM..

10-30-2003, 05:20 PM	#72 (permalink)
K-Wise It's All About The Ass!! Location: In a pool of mayonnaise!!	No problem man. Great links to. Very informative. I'd provide the links I used to write my paper if I remembered them. Hell I'd even provide the paper itself if I had it. Asta!! __________________ "I love music and it's my parents fault (closing statement)." - Me..quoting myself...from when I said that...On TFP..thats here...Tilted Forum Project *It ain't goodbye, it's see ya later! I'll miss you guys!* - Asta!!

10-31-2003, 12:18 PM	#74 (permalink)
Crazy/Beautiful Loser Location: In solitude	Thanks Sun Tzu!

10-31-2003, 12:49 PM	#75 (permalink)
supafly Psycho Location: Rotterdam	Me and my gf talked about it, if she ever would get pregnant we both want to keep the child. We are both 21 years old now but it probably would be a different situation if we were 16. I think it's a disiccion you take together (maybe even with your parents). __________________ Thumbs up