Mael

http://www.local6.com/news/2485707/detail.html


Parents Who Treated Infant's Illness With Prayer Get Jail Time
Couple's Religion Played Role In Treatments Decision

POSTED: 4:04 p.m. EDT September 15, 2003

RANCHO CUCAMONGA, Calif. -- A couple whose infant daughter died of meningitis after they treated her with prayer instead of medicine were sentenced to a year of weekends in jail.

Richard Wiebe, 30, and Agnes Wiebe, 31, were sentenced Friday and were to surrender next month. They pleaded no contest last month to child abuse and involuntary manslaughter.

They also were placed on five years' probation and ordered to attend parenting classes. Superior Court Judge Gerard Brown agreed to suspend a six-year state prison sentence.

The couple, members of the Church of God in Upland, treated their 11-month-old daughter's high fever, vomiting and convulsions with home remedies and prayer instead of taking her to a doctor.

Julia Wiebe died in July 2001 of what doctors said was a treatable form of bacterial meningitis. The couple said their religion shuns modern medical treatment.

The Wiebes also have a 20-month-old son.

Prosecutors wanted prison sentences.

"The level of care they attempted to give (their daughter) fell far short of the care they should have sought from a medical professional," Deputy District Attorney Jeremy Carrasco said.

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i got this from fark. i started to read the thread with it, but it was too long cluttered. so anyways, what do you guys think about this? i'm all for them getting jail time, i think they should have to serve the whole term in jail, not just go on the weekends.

stldickie

take their other kid, and whats this weekend jail BS? What a couple of morons, maybe they should pray to get a Fing clue

Kaos

Hmm, that kind of reminds me of an episode of Law & Order. Although you have to respect someone else's religion, people have got to realize that if there is medicine or treatment available, then maybe God/Higher Power/whatever has provided it to be used.

DownwardSpiral

I'm willing to bet their excuse was 'Well God was ready for our child, that's all.' Man, Religion is so complicated at times.

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sixate

This is just another reason why people should have te get a license to have a child.

Mr. Spacemonkey

* shakes head * That's too bad for the childs sake. I respect their religion and all but i pretty much agree with what Kaos said. In my opinion, if there is medicine that can be used and easily save the child then the medicine should be used.

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DownwardSpiral

Interesting sixate, a License to Give Birth, lol.

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CSflim

Lock em up, and throw away the key.

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rogue49

And I agree with him, too many dickheads are parents.
Any idiot can have one.

The_Dude

God wanted the baby to die and the baby died. The baby has went to heaven and is part of God's plan.

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lurkette

So many people have tossed around this "parenting license" idea that I wonder why it's never been seriously proposed. It strikes me as the sickest kind of irony that you have to have a license to drive or have a dog but any idiot can have a kid, regardless of their capacity to care for that kid or raise them to be a responsible human being. Is it because procreating is a biological imperative? We regulate other aspects of procreation - abortion, prostitution, etc. - why ccan't we regulate birth itself? Of course, who am I to draw the line - my parents should never EVER have been allowed to have kids, but here I am and I turned out okay. Of course, my parents never prayed instead of taking me to the doctor.

Cases like this are sad, not least because you know the parents really do love their kids. It's a shame they just don't love them enough to give up their ideological beliefs. It's amazing what kind of misery results when people are incapable of admitting that they could be wrong.

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theguyondacouch

he should be castrated and she should be uhhh... speighed, yeah that's it.

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Esoteric

What the hell is the weekend jail shit? Either they serve a real term or don't. It's like making it convienent almost...

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raeanna74

The name even sounds like a family we knew when I was a kid. They believed that to go to a Doctor would be turning their back on God's help by seeking man's help. They were so completely brainwashed and messed up that even I could see it. They were intelligent people but their church had brainwashed them and was truely controlling them. Not only do these people need their other child protected but they need to go through counseling until they realize how brainwashed they are. They should not be allowed contact with those who have taught them not to provide proper medical treatment for themselves or their children. Those people who have been teaching that are perpetuating child abuse in more than just this home alone. For all we know there are many more children who are suffering from other ailments simply because their parents have been brainwashed to believe that seeing a Dr is sin.

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CSflim

I've got the perfect solution! Excecute them! Surely they won't object? After all they believe that they will be going straight to heaven?
That way, God can make up his own mind as to whether they deserve punishment or not!

/let God sort 'em out.

Reminds me of a joke.

A blonde is out in the middle of a lake, when she notices that her boat has sprung a leak. Just then a guy in a motorboat pulls up and asks her if she's alright.
"Don't worry about me, my God will save me".
So the guy turns away, and goes off.
The water continues to pump into the blondes boat. A fishing boat, upon sing this, pulls up alongside her, and asks if she needs help.
"Don't worry, I know that God will protect me"
So the fishing boat reluctantly pulls away, while the water keeps rushing into her boat.
The blonde is up to her angles in water, when another guy appears by her sie offering to help. But once agin she turns him away, adamnant in the fact that God will save her.
Finally the boat gives way, and sinks, and the blonde drowns.
She arrives at heavens gate, and meets God.
"Why didn't you save me! I've been devoutedly religious all my life!"
"Why didn't I save you!? I sent THREE boats!

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viejo gringo

Yea, I had an ex mother-in-law that was baby sitting with my child and refused to give her the medication we left with her--she decided she could just pray that fever away when it flared up, rather than giving her the medicne----we rushed her to the emergency room, and the grand mother did not get to see her for months afterward...dumb bitch..

StormBerlin

I have to bring up the point that they are her parents and have the legal right as well as other rights to treat or not treat their child as they see fit. Or they should anyway. It is very unfortunate that this happened, but that is there religion and this Liberal Country decided that a complete speraration of Chruch and State should be mandated. The parents are at fault according to everyone else, so lets punish them with a jail sentence. If what they believe they did is truly right, then that will do nothing but waste my tax dollars. If this is how they were supposed to go about things in God's eyes, they'll get what they deserve sooner or later.

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Mael

but do they have that right? as parents, it is their legal responsibility to take care of and protect their child. just because it is their religous belief that medicine is bad and prayer is good, is that still not neglectful seeing as how an infant can't also make that decision? as adults they can make that decision for themselves, but do parents have the right to endanger the lives of their children who are too young to understand what is going on and make that decision of belief for themselves?

Splice

Very well said.

bundy

i find this just sad.
poor children... it must be so difficult (although i realise that they wouldn´t know different for a while) for children to grow up in situations where their parents take religion for seriously than their health.
i´m actually pleased that the courts did do something about this because i don´t feel that religious beliefs should be able to stymie the courts findings on this sort of blantant negligence.

thank you. thats hilarious.

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Lebell

Actually, this case illustrates that when the child's life is in danger, parents DO NOT have the right to refuse any and all medical treatment for their child.

This is not the first time this has been tested in a court, nor is it the first time that caregivers have gone to jail.

IMHO, if there is a reasonable chance that a seriously ill child will live with proper medical attention, it should be criminal not to seek it.

On the other hand, if there is a reasonable or better chance that such treatment will only prolong the suffering of a terminally ill child without appreciably improving or extending their life, it should be the parent's choice whether to seek such treatment.

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irseg

So what you're saying is, if I go around stealing stuff and murdering people because I'm nuts and think some magical man who lives in the sky told me it's okay, I should get off the hook. And anyone who thinks I deserve punishment should go fuck off because they're God-hating liberals. Hrmmph. I'm about as anti-liberal as they come, and I think religion is a bunch of horse shit.

Funny how most conservatives rightly consider a criminal's plea of "temporary insanity" to be bullshit, but if anyone says they committed a crime because Jesus told them it's okay, that's just fine.

MrFlux

irseg makes a good point.

The law is the law, and these people killed the child through gross negligence. Their religion in no way exempts them from the law, they are just as guilty of manslaughter as any other parent who neglects their child.

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flux (n.)
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Nitro

I have to agree on that one.
If you have a true seperation of religion and state, religious reasons should not count regarding the law.
In some cases it can be an explanation why somebody did something("God told me","I wasn't myself", etc.) but it should never be an excuse and it should never affect the judgement or the punishment. But then again the US has jury trials and then the idea goes overboard since you can easily find a jury which would buy into that argument.

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Bill O'Rights

I can not even begin to express my anger at this. This just adds to my list of reasons why I hate organized religion. This is not the 14th century. We have medicines and treatments that can heal and cure. We don't have to sprinkle ashes, shake rattles and pray for the exorcism of the demons that cause fever. And look, we now have a life expectancy that expands past the age of 40.

I believe that every person should have the freedom to practice whatever religion they deem is right for them. But, that freedom stops when it endangers or adversely affects others. Especially innocents. Freedom of religion does not cover human sacrifice...is this any different? Not in so far as I can see.

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vanbeast

This gets down to a very basic fear of mine. What happens when I have a kid and have to teach them about religion?

I'm an atheist. I have been for most of my life. I was brought up going to church on Sundays, but I never really believed, I just sort of accepted. When I started to be able to think for myself a little bit more, I realized that faith in that which cannot be proved is not something that appealed to me.

I'm getting older now, and I know that someday I'm going to have kids. I'm scared to death of how to deal with this. What do I say when they ask why we don't go to church? Do I ask some religious friend of mine to take them to church and try it out?

Children are born into this world without beliefs, without morals or a sense of right and wrong. Those things are instilled in them by the people around them as they are being raised. I want my children to have the ability to form their own beliefs, but I just don't know how that is possible.

Any insight would be appreciated, but maybe a new thread should be started... sorta hijacked this one

Back on topic, though, what the hell kind of sentence is weekends in jail? WTF? THEY KILLED THEIR KID, albeit through negligence. Most people get sent to jail FOR REAL when that happens.

Weak.

StormBerlin

If you go around concsiously murdering people, then you are a murderer and deserve to be punished. These people thought their daughter had a cough, and that's it. It is their belief to not treat with moden medical practices and they should be allowed that right because this country gave it to them. If there is going to be a separation of chruch and state, then there should be one. If not, then there shouldn't be any whatsoever. I don't know if you were insinuating that these parents were "nuts", but they weren't. They wanted to treat their child for a cough best according to their beliefs and unfortunately it wasn't for the best. But that is life and they have that freedom to practice their religion, but when they do they are persecuted for it.

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Lebell

vanbeast:

Sounds like a great topic for a new thread

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Mael

1. they didn't think she had a cough. she was having convulsions, coughs and a high fever. with an infant, a high fever is enough of a reason to go to take a kid to the emergency room for people who do not have their religous beliefs.

2. they do have the right to believe that which they wish. the constitution gives them that right. but does the constitution give them the right to let their right to religious practice override their childs right to life, liberty and happiness? i don't think so. the right to religous freedom is something our govt. gives us. our right to life is given to us by nature, higher power, whatever, it's from a source above man. by not taking her to the hospital they infringed on their daughters right to a life full of liberty and happiness because she died.

StormBerlin

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mael


2. they do have the right to believe that which they wish. the constitution gives them that right. but does the constitution give them the right to let their right to religious practice override their childs right to life, liberty and happiness? i don't think so.


They either have the right to practice their religious beliefs, or they don't. Like you said the constitution gives them that right, so you cannot draw a line down the middle. They were only doing what they knew best to do (looking to their God), and unfortunately their child dies because of it. Don't you think they feel bad enough? I highly doubt their purpose was to kill their child, but according to the constitution they have the right to practice their beliefs. It doesn't say anywhere, "Except when it comes to medical well-being."

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Lebell

StormBerlin,

You of course have the right to believe that, but numerous courts have ruled otherwise and so far, the body in charge of hearing constitutional challenges to court decisions and laws (SCOTUS) has not disagreed.

So, legally, you are wrong. The courts say that they DO NOT have the right to endanger their child while practicing their religious beliefs.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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CSflim

[QUOTE]Originally posted by StormBerlin

Quote:

Originally posted by Mael 2. they do have the right to believe that which they wish. the constitution gives them that right. but does the constitution give them the right to let their right to religious practice override their childs right to life, liberty and happiness? i don't think so. They either have the right to practice their religious beliefs, or they don't. Like you said the constitution gives them that right, so you cannot draw a line down the middle. They were only doing what they knew best to do (looking to their God), and unfortunately their child dies because of it. Don't you think they feel bad enough? I highly doubt their purpose was to kill their child, but according to the constitution they have the right to practice their beliefs. It doesn't say anywhere, "Except when it comes to medical well-being."

I am making up an new religion. I call it CSflimism. One of the main constituents of this religion, is that I am morally compelled to kill anyone with blonde hair.

Do I deserve legal protection, on the basis that the constitution protects my carrying out of religious beliefs?

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Minx

Sixate hit the nail on the head completely. I have always said it just makes me amazed that you need a licence to own a dog but anyone can have a child.
These people let their child die......it is that plain and simple. And the other child will suffer a similar fate if left in their "care". What happens if it breaks a leg.....you hope that God will mend it properly? Sorry....I don't buy that.

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Mael

[QUOTE]Originally posted by StormBerlin

Quote:

They either have the right to practice their religious beliefs, or they don't. Like you said the constitution gives them that right, so you cannot draw a line down the middle. They were only doing what they knew best to do (looking to their God), and unfortunately their child dies because of it. Don't you think they feel bad enough? I highly doubt their purpose was to kill their child, but according to the constitution they have the right to practice their beliefs. It doesn't say anywhere, "Except when it comes to medical well-being."

actually, i think if you'll look in the constitution, you'll find that you are free to practice your religion as long as it doesn't impeded on other peoples rights. if they choose to decline medical attention for themselves, that's fine. but to deny that to someone else is not. they don't have that right. do satanists (a recognized religion in the states) have the right to do human sacrifices? no. so there are times where the law can and should stop you from following various religous practices.

David2000

It's good they got jail time--I think that treatment of illnesses with prayer is fine, but only if you're doing it on yourself and not on a minor who doesn't know any better. So where do you draw the line? Can you be prosecuted if you tried to treat scarlet fever with prayer and the baby went blind? What if the baby just suffered but didn't die? Is letting a baby suffer just as bad as making the baby suffer yourself?

CSflim

Well different things are less/more servere. That is why the courts can give different lengths of a sentance, depending on how severe the crime was.

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MrFlux

Well if the child didn't die, they'd still be charged with Child Abuse for being negligent, I would assume. They probably wouldn't get the jail time (which was most likely for involuntary manslaughter in this case), just get sent to parenting classes.

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flux (n.)
Medicine. The discharge of large quantities of fluid material from the body, especially the discharge of watery feces from the intestines.

Loki

*ahem*... Natural Selection =)

H12

Brilliant idea; I like it.



I'm really undecided here, truth be told, because I see alot of good examples from both sides. I'm gonna stay neutral on this.

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CSflim

Good god! that's one of the most tasteless things I've read in a long time, you sick insensitive bastard.

I laughed pretty damn hard! -> -> ->

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