i can prove that it is impossible to do good - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

sipsake · 09-11-2003, 11:47 AM

Flawed premise and methodology. You're starting with the hypothesis that all good deeds are selfishly motivated and then you find an argument to make the data conform to your hypothesis. Just because a selfish motivation can be found for any given situation doesn't mean that the situation was selfish.

irseg · 09-11-2003, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
well putting food in a food hamper just so you can feel good is selfish. hence not a good deed. because selfishness is bad. right?

Huh? So giving food to the needy would be good, but only if it's something you hate to do?!

You're freakin' nuts.

I do nice things for people who are close to me all the time. Why? Because it makes me feel good to help them and make them happy. What's wrong with that? Not a damn thing. Are the things I do not good *because I like doing them*?? Fuck no!!

A better question would be: is it possible to be an altruist?

Altriusm, by definition, is doing or giving something selflessly. But do people really do that, or do they do these things because it makes them feel good? Which is a selfish act--and there's nothing wrong with that WHATSOEVER.

Tirian · 09-11-2003, 12:43 PM

In my view it's all about the motivation of the person doing the good deed. There are people who do deeds for self righteous reasons, and I can honestly say I know some people well enough to know that they are doing good deeds for non-selfish reasons.

Since the bible has already been mentioned, and there is a good illustration found within, I am going to add a biblical parable to this post.

From the gospel of Luke.

"And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had."

This little story illustrates my point about motivation. The rich men could have had some of the selfish reasons listed in this thread. Self import, increase of own well being, or better fitting in with the crowd. But the story shows the contrast of a widow, who would be living in exceedingly depressed and dependent condition of a poor man's widow in the countries where our Lord was. She was unlikely to contribute anything to a charitable purpose, but she did.

I feel it would be hard to show selfishness on her part.

There may be other points to this parable as well, that I have not mentioned.

3leggedfrog · 09-11-2003, 01:14 PM

Cynthetiq
i like that you use logic to disprove my conclusion but you made a mistake. your logic is flawed due to a fallacy inherent in your argument.

Love is blind,
God is love,
Stevie Wonder is blind, therefore Stevie Wonder is god.

your stevie wonder argument is a weak analogy fallacy. love is blind. love may not be blind so your conclusion is false. if you can find a fallacy in my argument please post it. ( please read my past post before replying it explains why all good deeds are selfish.)thanks

all selfish acts are non good
all good deeds are selfishness (see past posts on motivation of good)
all good deeds are not good

the only problem with my argument is that if you do not agree with the first premise all selfish acts are not good. this is your problem with my argument Moelester. i do not give a definition of what is good but you may use utilitarian or deontology or what ever. right now i see no problem with my argument fitting in any of these schools of thought.

also i agree that continuum statement. good is subjective thats not what i am arguing about. i say use what ever definition you want and my argument still stands up.

3leggedfrog · 09-11-2003, 01:59 PM

Tirian
hmm ok please go easy on me with this one but a it could have been her goal to show that is she good to the christian god. her reward was his/her approval. also one could argue that she was looking for "browie points" to get into heavan due to the fact that the life she was living was close to the end and her standard of living was very poor. We can speculate that she wanted a better afterlife.

johnnymysto love the avatar. to answer your reply what was the motivation to go into traffic and save the man? was the motivation temporarily stronger than self preservation. yes so what was the motivation?

sipsake what do you mean that the situation may not be selfish? what happens when you take away the motivation and keep the situation will the person still act the same way? the likey out-come is no. so while the out-come was good the act itself was not.

irseg. your point of doing something because we hate it is the only possible way to do good is wrong. while if you follow the logic of the argument that seems a likly statement its not. because doing something we hate mean that we are not doing the act of our own free will. so someone must be forcing us to do this act and the only reason we would do this act is prevent the bad consequences from not doing it. that is selfish.

viejo gringo, sr, i have great respect for your age and wisdom, but could you please clarify what you mean by waiting to your age. to me this argument is very cut and dry. what have i missed sir?

MacGnG · 09-11-2003, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cubby
So what..it is still a good deed.

yep. it's that you did a good deed, not why. you could have easily not done it. THAT you did it is what makes it good.

Cynthetiq · 09-11-2003, 02:27 PM

exactly the logic itself is flawed, selfishness is in the flawed portion.

It's why I used the fallacy logic to express the same thing in your logic.

3leggedfrog · 09-11-2003, 02:32 PM

Cynthetiq
why is slefishness flawed? i do not understand.

Cynthetiq · 09-11-2003, 02:38 PM

your second statement all good deeds are selfish.

because they are not. ex. A person who dies and a kidney is taken from their dying body is doing good, though no perceived reward, in fact it cannot be known to the individual prior to death. that action in itself is selfless, not selfish.

Mr. Spacemonkey · 09-11-2003, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
why is slefishness flawed? i do not understand.

I'm guessing it's because this statement makes no sense whatsoever "all selfish acts are not good"

Cynthetiq · 09-11-2003, 02:43 PM

the logic also doesn't work because you can equally substitute EVIL for good, and defend that equally. so again, flawed logic that wastes brain cycles and time.

Tirian · 09-11-2003, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
Tirian
hmm ok please go easy on me with this one but a it could have been her goal to show that is she good to the christian god. her reward was his/her approval. also one could argue that she was looking for "browie points" to get into heavan due to the fact that the life she was living was close to the end and her standard of living was very poor. We can speculate that she wanted a better afterlife.

Yes I agree - we could speculate those things, but would we be right ? No, because this is a parable. Jesus was simply telling a story to illustrate some points he was making. Because it is a work of fiction (so to speak) the author is allowed to give the character any motivation he wishes. In this story the whole point is to illustrate selflessnes, so we know she was not motivated by selfish motives.

As per a real life good deed story...

sipsake said it best...

"Just because a selfish motivation can be found for any given situation doesn't mean that the situation was selfish."

It doesn't mean it was not selfish either, but since we can't really judge anothers motivation, than we cannot prove that all good deeds are badly motivated.

Logically I see it like this... Just because we cannot prove an object to be square, does not mean we have proven it to be round.

Cynthetiq · 09-11-2003, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tirian
Logically I see it like this... Just because we cannot prove an object to be square, does not mean we have proven it to be round.

Bravo!!!

Tirian · 09-11-2003, 02:54 PM

Further to all of this, I have anecdotal real life evidence.

I know people who have done good deeds, and deep deep within my being I know them to have been GOOD deeds. Selflessly motivated purly for the good of the reciever.

This is not something I can prove with pure logic, but I have accepted it as it is. Truly good deeds do exist.

3leggedfrog · 09-11-2003, 03:10 PM

mr space monkey sorry miss type. its fixed now.

Cynthetiq
did he bequeath the organ before he died?

if no then he did no deed at all. the good deed lies with the family that okayed the donation and the doctors who preformed it. then we must look at their motivations. becha they are selfish motives.

if yes then what was his motivation to do it?

3leggedfrog · 09-11-2003, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tirian
Logically I see it like this... Just because we cannot prove an object to be square, does not mean we have proven it to be round.

i am not trying to prove that a square is round. i am saying all good deeds are inherently selfish. the out come maybe good but not the motivation to do the deed.

3leggedfrog · 09-11-2003, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
the logic also doesn't work because you can equally substitute EVIL for good, and defend that equally. so again, flawed logic that wastes brain cycles and time.

how? that all evil is selfish?

Cynthetiq · 09-11-2003, 03:17 PM

selfish acts can also be evil. so the same position that you chose to defend can also be defended as evil.

in re: to the bequeath.. yes, law dictates it be such. no reward because death precludes it. religion? no because then you create certain situations that just fit right.

3leggedfrog · 09-11-2003, 03:23 PM

how about that it makes the person feel good to do this act. he will be praised after his death. he may feel good knowing that he will be praised after his death. a hero of sorts.

...side note...
knowing that we cannot stop our death why shouldnt we give an organ to save someones life? be a organ donor. if you are, make sure that your family know so that your organ can be used to save someone elses life!!!!!!

Tirian · 09-11-2003, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
i am not trying to prove that a square is round. i am saying all good deeds are inherently selfish. the out come maybe good but not the motivation to do the deed.

Sounds to me like you are. You seem to be saying that since none of us can PROVE a deed to be selfless, than they must be selfish.

Remember what I said in my most recent post. I know DEEP DEEP in my being that I have witnessed good acts.

I challenge you to take a hard critical look inside yourself, and see if you can honestly believe that all good deeds are selfishly motivated.

If you can, than you have had the misfurtune of hanging around with a different crowd than have I.

3leggedfrog · 09-11-2003, 03:37 PM

Tirian
no you have witness good out comes of selfish acts that you (as a part of your culture) deeply admire.

just because they are selfish does not mean that we should stop doing them. good reward is need for all of us to survive. we need things to make us happy. a happy person will make others around them happy. thus a stable enviroment. if you are a hero then you too will be praised and rewarded.

Tirian · 09-11-2003, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
Tirian
no you have witness good out comes of selfish acts that you (as a part of your culture) deeply admire.

Sorry - I know what I know about these people and you do not.

Remember that the word "prove" includes the removal of alternate possibilities.

You have in no way (with your reasoning) removed the possibility of a selfless act. You have only introduced the possibility of a selfish one. (which I agreed to the existance of all along.)

FYI - I am just continuing to post in the spirit of good discussion. Please take it as such. (not trying to be argumentative here) I hope that's cool.

GakFace · 09-11-2003, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Halx
SO all you are saying is that there is no such thing as pure altruism.

*shrug*

Precisely what I was hoping someone was going to point out. There can be and IS good in the world.. Good and Altruism are diffenet parts of the same wavelength. A good deed is still a good deed even if it made you feel better by doing it, it was STILL a good deed. Sure when I help people, I do feel good inside, so yes, that is not true ALTRUISM, but its still a good deed. If you don't think so, you don't quite understand what you are talking about.

I noticed you said this....
"yea halx all act of altruism are motivated by selfish desires."

Do you not understand the MEANING of Altruism? The MEANING is that is NOT motivated by selfish desires. See your whole arguement, i'm sorry to say, is crap. I do not say this to flame, I say this because you took one IMPORTANT WORD, and IGNORED its meaning. Therefore, without Altruism to stop you, you could go on and on. So on that note, here is a dictionary reference.

Altruism
--Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.
(Did I hear... Selflessness?)

Admit your defeat, you forgot about altruism

Mr. Spacemonkey · 09-11-2003, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
mr space monkey sorry miss type. its fixed now.

That's not what i meant when i said it made no sense. What i meant was that this statement "all selfish acts are not good" is no more then an opinion.

Wile E · 09-11-2003, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
i can prove that it is impossible to do good

Well let’s not even look at the pointless, flawed logic that has been spewing forth in this thread. Lets just look at the original statement. i can prove that it is impossible to do good I'm still waiting. All I've seen are lame attempts to disprove OTHERS thoughts and no attempts at actually PROVING anything. If one claims that they can prove a theory, I expect a valid argument followed by facts that back this up.

Without being able to follow simple protocol, how can one be expected to listen to any following statements? If you had said, Anybody who wants to attempt to prove to me that doing good is not a selfish act, then please post your arguments , then I would understand.

So here’s your chance to redeem yourself. Prove your theory. Use arguments, facts, and quotes from philosophers that have fought this argument previously and we will all be gracious listeners. Perhaps we'll even post a poll following to see if you have 'proven' your theory.

But as of now, I have not been convinced. Nothing has been proven yet.

3leggedfrog · 09-11-2003, 05:42 PM

hmm i seem to have made some people very angry.

i am all for debates and have taken all that have posted here as a debate. lol i did say all comers.

Mr space monkey its a logic statement. the first two are premises and the last is a conclusion. by writing my argument that way, i was proving that my argument is logical. even arguments can be proven using a mathmatical formula.

is a good deed, any good deed, that is motivated by selfishness still good. the out come may be good but is the deed?

yes i know what altrusim is. altruism is set by the culture we live in, when they tell us what is good and what is bad. altuism the ultimate selflessness good act. NORMALLY, but not always, the untimate act, dieing, to advance ones culture in some way. it is even documented as one of three ways to commit suicide from the american psychology assosciation.

Tirian, i am sorry that i offended you, your friends, and the people who are heros in your life. this is just my opinion. as for not know what i am talking about i was a EMT/LPN for 5 years decorated for
humanitarian services. (if you want to know more send me a private email i will tell you why).

Prove according to dictionary.com is: To establish the truth or validity of by presentation of argument or evidence.

Wile E · 09-11-2003, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog

Prove according to dictionary.com is: To establish the truth or validity of by presentation of argument or evidence.

Ok, you have the definition. Thats good. Now do it.

Mr. Spacemonkey · 09-11-2003, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
Mr space monkey its a logic statement. the first two are premises and the last is a conclusion. by writing my argument that way, i was proving that my argument is logical. even arguments can be proven using a mathmatical formula.

is a good deed, any good deed, that is motivated by selfishness still good. the out come may be good but is the deed?

Okay so then it is a question your asking, not proof that your giving. Yes is the answer to the question in my opinion.

But anyway, the whole reason i came here was to see the proof that it is impossible to do good deeds. And as Wile E pointed out there hasn't been any proof. Some good debate, but i haven't seen any good solid proof.

DownwardSpiral · 09-11-2003, 06:06 PM

I thought you said you could prove that it is impossible to do good, frog, so where's the proof hmmm?

Tirian · 09-11-2003, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
Tirian, i am sorry that i offended you, your friends, and the people who are heros in your life. this is just my opinion. .

I am neither offended, nor angered.

Simply pointing out the obvious.

I sincerely hope I have not offended you, by differing.

motdakasha · 09-11-2003, 10:07 PM

Okay, these are just my thoughts:

I can almost agree with you 3leggedfrog, but I really don't like absolute statements since there's usually some sort of exception to it. (Except that all humans die and that kind of stuff.) While, I can agree to the fact that most human actions are calculated based on greed and selfishness, I disagree that all (good, or even bad) actions are selfish. I think, while few and far between, truly selfless acts exist.

It seems like one of the biggest arguments with your theory is that you think anything selfish is ultimately the determining factor of a good deed. I disagree with this. I think it's only part of the picture. While it is admittedly only one cultural perspective, the first example I can think of is crime. Let's say truly bad crime is represented by black and innocent of crime is white. First degree murder would be black. Second degree murder would be a dark shade of gray. Third degree (a.k.a. manslaughter) would be gray. While minor crimes would be a light shade of gray and innocent would be white. While intentions change the shade representing "bad deeds," it isn't the only determining factor, it's also the type of deed.

Black (Murder1) -- Dark Gray (Murder 2) -- Gray (Manslaughter) -- Light Gray (Minor crimes) -- White (Innocent)

Where am I getting with this? I think that this continuum can go in the opposite direction. There are white deeds and gray ones. There are black deeds done in the name of good as well. But, I think the extreme ends of the spectrums are not as common as the gray area. I suspect what is going on here is that you've only experienced the gray, and based on your experience, you are not willing to accept the possibility of truly white deeds.

Anyway, it sounds like you're so dead set in your ways, that you aren't really taking into full consideration what others are saying. So I feel my post is a moot point.

GakFace · 09-12-2003, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
yes i know what altrusim is. altruism is set by the culture we live in, when they tell us what is good and what is bad. altuism the ultimate selflessness good act. NORMALLY, but not always, the untimate act, dieing, to advance ones culture in some way. it is even documented as one of three ways to commit suicide from the american psychology assosciation.

First. If you know what altruism is, then the arguement is Over, I gave proof as to what it meant, I gave a DEFINATION.. did you? nope, don't see one. You yet again ran around it, you said it is set by the culture we live in. Ok fine, I wasn't wondering about that.. you said society tells us what is good and what is bad. WHO CARES? THIS is not what I'm debating with you. I'm debating that Altruism EXISTS.. Culture can say its good, but regardless, someone will do it... and if it was a good deed (and you know if it is or not) then It was a good deed and selflessness, and thus Altuism, and I think that means you can't prove your point.

As for that dying part? That too could be altruism.. Perhaps you realize that you're gonna die, so you figure you might as well try to go out with a bang, and help everyone else. Thats not selfish, its only selfish if it makes your death not as bad, if you get a thrill of it.. or if that kinda thing will make you happy and you KNOW it. If you dont' know it makes you happy, then its not selfish. Debate that, but I'll counter you first.

Take the first time you went down a slide as a kid. Were you in a selfish mindset for going down the slide? No, because you had no clue if you'd like it or not. Maybe the SECOND time.. you went down it for a selfish reason, but certainly not the first. I hope you caught my point.

Oh and uh, I agree with Wile E here... You haven't proven it, so uh, why don't you go and Prove yourself

Here is a quote... in fact it is your thread title....
"i can prove that it is impossible to do good"

Get Typing!

jwoody · 09-12-2003, 02:25 AM

This thread is good and you, 3leggedfrog, started it.

You did/done good.

Keep up the good work.

You delivered the goods. Good-bye.

Marius1 · 09-12-2003, 02:34 AM

Time to end this argument.

Is making someone happy good or evil?
Happy is good, correct?
If I do a good deed for someone and he is happy and I am happy and no one is unhappy its good.
A deed is only evil if it has a negative effect on someone. Myself deriving pleasure from the deed isn't negative, its good that I'm happy not sad. Its good they're happy.
Why is it good because it encourages the person to do more good deeds, that helps society again and again. Which is good.

A where the person makes themself happy but someone else has to be made unhappy to achieve it, now that is a selfish happyness and therefore evil.

Fibrosa · 09-12-2003, 03:54 AM

Actually I think you are begging the question twice 3legged.

First, by assuming there is such a truth as "good" and "evil" and second by assuming that selfishness is evil. In addition, how can a person NOT be selfish?

ssander9 · 09-12-2003, 04:08 AM

Did you post this for your selfish pleasure? Was your intent good or evil?

Marius1 · 09-12-2003, 04:08 AM

Well lets define selfish, dictionary.com has it as:

Quote:

concerned chiefly or only with yourself

If everyone was only concerned with oneself in every single action they took how would that affect society. Could society in fact function under those circumstances? I beleive not. If a selfish act harms no one then its fine, possibly even good.

Evil according to dictionary.com:

Quote:

Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful

Lots of selfish acts however do impact on others though otherwise there would be no self interest to worry about.

johnnymysto · 09-12-2003, 04:58 AM

This thread should be renamed to "Show me someone who did a good deed, and I will make up a selfish reason why they did it."

sipsake · 09-12-2003, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog

sipsake what do you mean that the situation may not be selfish? what happens when you take away the motivation and keep the situation will the person still act the same way? the likey out-come is no. so while the out-come was good the act itself was not.

That's entirely my point...YOU are the one defining the motivation of the actor.

Your premise is that there are no unselfish acts. Someone presents you with a situation. You look at the situation, find a way in which the actor's motivation can be defined as selfish, and declare yourself the winner. The problem is that YOU are defining the motivation regardless of what the actor's true motivation may have been.

Your real premise is that self interest is the primary motivating factor in human behavior. You then ask everyone to prove that it is not. You've therefore given everyone the impossible task of proving a negative.

Can't be done. You've just issued a wager that no one can win.

sipsake · 09-12-2003, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by johnnymysto
This thread should be renamed to "Show me someone who did a good deed, and I will make up a selfish reason why they did it."

Exactly!

09-11-2003, 11:47 AM	#41 (permalink)
sipsake Psycho Location: Memphis	Flawed premise and methodology. You're starting with the hypothesis that all good deeds are selfishly motivated and then you find an argument to make the data conform to your hypothesis. Just because a selfish motivation can be found for any given situation doesn't mean that the situation was selfish. __________________ When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?" Henry Rollins

09-11-2003, 01:14 PM	#44 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	Cynthetiq i like that you use logic to disprove my conclusion but you made a mistake. your logic is flawed due to a fallacy inherent in your argument. Love is blind, God is love, Stevie Wonder is blind, therefore Stevie Wonder is god. your stevie wonder argument is a weak analogy fallacy. love is blind. love may not be blind so your conclusion is false. if you can find a fallacy in my argument please post it. ( please read my past post before replying it explains why all good deeds are selfish.)thanks all selfish acts are non good all good deeds are selfishness (see past posts on motivation of good) all good deeds are not good the only problem with my argument is that if you do not agree with the first premise all selfish acts are not good. this is your problem with my argument Moelester. i do not give a definition of what is good but you may use utilitarian or deontology or what ever. right now i see no problem with my argument fitting in any of these schools of thought. also i agree that continuum statement. good is subjective thats not what i am arguing about. i say use what ever definition you want and my argument still stands up. __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." Last edited by 3leggedfrog; 09-11-2003 at 03:03 PM..

09-11-2003, 01:59 PM	#45 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	Tirian hmm ok please go easy on me with this one but a it could have been her goal to show that is she good to the christian god. her reward was his/her approval. also one could argue that she was looking for "browie points" to get into heavan due to the fact that the life she was living was close to the end and her standard of living was very poor. We can speculate that she wanted a better afterlife. johnnymysto love the avatar. to answer your reply what was the motivation to go into traffic and save the man? was the motivation temporarily stronger than self preservation. yes so what was the motivation? sipsake what do you mean that the situation may not be selfish? what happens when you take away the motivation and keep the situation will the person still act the same way? the likey out-come is no. so while the out-come was good the act itself was not. irseg. your point of doing something because we hate it is the only possible way to do good is wrong. while if you follow the logic of the argument that seems a likly statement its not. because doing something we hate mean that we are not doing the act of our own free will. so someone must be forcing us to do this act and the only reason we would do this act is prevent the bad consequences from not doing it. that is selfish. viejo gringo, sr, i have great respect for your age and wisdom, but could you please clarify what you mean by waiting to your age. to me this argument is very cut and dry. what have i missed sir? __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." Last edited by 3leggedfrog; 09-11-2003 at 02:31 PM..

09-11-2003, 02:27 PM	#47 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	exactly the logic itself is flawed, selfishness is in the flawed portion. It's why I used the fallacy logic to express the same thing in your logic. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

09-11-2003, 02:32 PM	#48 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	Cynthetiq why is slefishness flawed? i do not understand. __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day."

09-11-2003, 12:43 PM	#43 (permalink)
Tirian Addict Location: Canada	In my view it's all about the motivation of the person doing the good deed. There are people who do deeds for self righteous reasons, and I can honestly say I know some people well enough to know that they are doing good deeds for non-selfish reasons. Since the bible has already been mentioned, and there is a good illustration found within, I am going to add a biblical parable to this post. From the gospel of Luke. "And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had." This little story illustrates my point about motivation. The rich men could have had some of the selfish reasons listed in this thread. Self import, increase of own well being, or better fitting in with the crowd. But the story shows the contrast of a widow, who would be living in exceedingly depressed and dependent condition of a poor man's widow in the countries where our Lord was. She was unlikely to contribute anything to a charitable purpose, but she did. I feel it would be hard to show selfishness on her part. There may be other points to this parable as well, that I have not mentioned.

09-11-2003, 02:38 PM	#49 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	your second statement all good deeds are selfish. because they are not. ex. A person who dies and a kidney is taken from their dying body is doing good, though no perceived reward, in fact it cannot be known to the individual prior to death. that action in itself is selfless, not selfish. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

09-11-2003, 02:43 PM	#51 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	the logic also doesn't work because you can equally substitute EVIL for good, and defend that equally. so again, flawed logic that wastes brain cycles and time. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

09-11-2003, 02:54 PM	#54 (permalink)
Tirian Addict Location: Canada	Further to all of this, I have anecdotal real life evidence. I know people who have done good deeds, and deep deep within my being I know them to have been GOOD deeds. Selflessly motivated purly for the good of the reciever. This is not something I can prove with pure logic, but I have accepted it as it is. Truly good deeds do exist.

09-11-2003, 03:10 PM	#55 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	mr space monkey sorry miss type. its fixed now. Cynthetiq did he bequeath the organ before he died? if no then he did no deed at all. the good deed lies with the family that okayed the donation and the doctors who preformed it. then we must look at their motivations. becha they are selfish motives. if yes then what was his motivation to do it? __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day."

09-11-2003, 03:17 PM	#58 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	selfish acts can also be evil. so the same position that you chose to defend can also be defended as evil. in re: to the bequeath.. yes, law dictates it be such. no reward because death precludes it. religion? no because then you create certain situations that just fit right. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION! Last edited by Cynthetiq; 09-11-2003 at 03:19 PM..

09-11-2003, 03:23 PM	#59 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	how about that it makes the person feel good to do this act. he will be praised after his death. he may feel good knowing that he will be praised after his death. a hero of sorts. ...side note... knowing that we cannot stop our death why shouldnt we give an organ to save someones life? be a organ donor. if you are, make sure that your family know so that your organ can be used to save someone elses life!!!!!! __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day."

09-11-2003, 03:37 PM	#61 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	Tirian no you have witness good out comes of selfish acts that you (as a part of your culture) deeply admire. just because they are selfish does not mean that we should stop doing them. good reward is need for all of us to survive. we need things to make us happy. a happy person will make others around them happy. thus a stable enviroment. if you are a hero then you too will be praised and rewarded. __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day."

09-11-2003, 05:42 PM	#66 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	hmm i seem to have made some people very angry. i am all for debates and have taken all that have posted here as a debate. lol i did say all comers. Mr space monkey its a logic statement. the first two are premises and the last is a conclusion. by writing my argument that way, i was proving that my argument is logical. even arguments can be proven using a mathmatical formula. is a good deed, any good deed, that is motivated by selfishness still good. the out come may be good but is the deed? yes i know what altrusim is. altruism is set by the culture we live in, when they tell us what is good and what is bad. altuism the ultimate selflessness good act. NORMALLY, but not always, the untimate act, dieing, to advance ones culture in some way. it is even documented as one of three ways to commit suicide from the american psychology assosciation. Tirian, i am sorry that i offended you, your friends, and the people who are heros in your life. this is just my opinion. as for not know what i am talking about i was a EMT/LPN for 5 years decorated for humanitarian services. (if you want to know more send me a private email i will tell you why). Prove according to dictionary.com is: To establish the truth or validity of by presentation of argument or evidence. __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day."

09-11-2003, 06:06 PM	#69 (permalink)
DownwardSpiral The Funeral of Hearts Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .	I thought you said you could prove that it is impossible to do good, frog, so where's the proof hmmm? __________________ "So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending"

09-11-2003, 10:07 PM	#71 (permalink)
motdakasha Hiya Puddin'! Miss me? Location: Silicon Valley, CA	Okay, these are just my thoughts: I can almost agree with you 3leggedfrog, but I really don't like absolute statements since there's usually some sort of exception to it. (Except that all humans die and that kind of stuff.) While, I can agree to the fact that most human actions are calculated based on greed and selfishness, I disagree that all (good, or even bad) actions are selfish. I think, while few and far between, truly selfless acts exist. It seems like one of the biggest arguments with your theory is that you think anything selfish is ultimately the determining factor of a good deed. I disagree with this. I think it's only part of the picture. While it is admittedly only one cultural perspective, the first example I can think of is crime. Let's say truly bad crime is represented by black and innocent of crime is white. First degree murder would be black. Second degree murder would be a dark shade of gray. Third degree (a.k.a. manslaughter) would be gray. While minor crimes would be a light shade of gray and innocent would be white. While intentions change the shade representing "bad deeds," it isn't the only determining factor, it's also the type of deed. Black (Murder1) -- Dark Gray (Murder 2) -- Gray (Manslaughter) -- Light Gray (Minor crimes) -- White (Innocent) Where am I getting with this? I think that this continuum can go in the opposite direction. There are white deeds and gray ones. There are black deeds done in the name of good as well. But, I think the extreme ends of the spectrums are not as common as the gray area. I suspect what is going on here is that you've only experienced the gray, and based on your experience, you are not willing to accept the possibility of truly white deeds. Anyway, it sounds like you're so dead set in your ways, that you aren't really taking into full consideration what others are saying. So I feel my post is a moot point. __________________ =^-^= motdakasha =^-^= Just Google It. BA Psychology & Photography (I'm not going psychoanalyze you nor will I let you cry on my shoulder. Have a nice day.)

09-12-2003, 02:25 AM	#73 (permalink)
jwoody Shackle Me Not Location: Newcastle - England.	This thread is good and you, 3leggedfrog, started it. You did/done good. Keep up the good work. You delivered the goods. Good-bye. __________________ .

09-12-2003, 02:34 AM	#74 (permalink)
Marius1 Loser Location: Wales	Time to end this argument. Is making someone happy good or evil? Happy is good, correct? If I do a good deed for someone and he is happy and I am happy and no one is unhappy its good. A deed is only evil if it has a negative effect on someone. Myself deriving pleasure from the deed isn't negative, its good that I'm happy not sad. Its good they're happy. Why is it good because it encourages the person to do more good deeds, that helps society again and again. Which is good. A where the person makes themself happy but someone else has to be made unhappy to achieve it, now that is a selfish happyness and therefore evil.

09-12-2003, 03:54 AM	#75 (permalink)
Fibrosa Insane	Actually I think you are begging the question twice 3legged. First, by assuming there is such a truth as "good" and "evil" and second by assuming that selfishness is evil. In addition, how can a person NOT be selfish? __________________ D'oh!

09-12-2003, 04:08 AM	#76 (permalink)
ssander9 Amplitude Modulator Location: US	Did you post this for your selfish pleasure? Was your intent good or evil? __________________ I never said you had to.

09-12-2003, 04:58 AM	#78 (permalink)
johnnymysto Overreactor Location: South Ca'lina	This thread should be renamed to "Show me someone who did a good deed, and I will make up a selfish reason why they did it." __________________ "I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request." - Capt. Barbossa