Driver Shoots, Kills Man After Prank - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

dimbulb · 09-02-2003, 07:26 PM

Sad, and wrong. I've been the victim of a drive-by paintball shooting before, and it is NOT fun. But to kill someone by indiscriminately firing a shotgun into a field.........

we need a way to get guns out of the hands of idiots.

Quote:

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-cornfield-killing,0,384536.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines

Driver Shoots, Kills Man After Prank

By Associated Press

September 2, 2003, 9:07 PM EDT

MOUNT HOPE, Ohio -- A driver fired a shotgun into a cornfield and killed a man after being tormented by a group of young Amish pranksters who pelted his car with tomatoes, authorities said.

Steven L. Keim was with about 10 other members of the Amish community, ages 15 to 23, who were hiding in the field Monday night, throwing tomatoes and firing paintball guns at passing cars, the Holmes County Sheriff's office said.

After driving past the cornfield several times and being pelted on each occasion, the driver stopped and challenged the group to throw more tomatoes, then fired three to five shots into the field, striking Keim multiple times. No suspect had been arrested Tuesday.

Holmes County, a rural area that has what is believed to be the world's largest Amish population, sees its share of pranks by young Amish people every fall, Chief Deputy Nathan Fritz said.

"They'll steal their neighbor's buggy and put it on top of a building," Fritz said.

It was the county's first firearm-related homicide in about 30 years, Fritz said.

Although Keim was raised Amish, the self-employed roofing contractor had a driver's license and had left the Amish church, Fritz said.

Many Amish teenagers, like the group in the cornfield, experiment with popular culture then later return to the Amish lifestyle, Fritz said.

The Amish do not believe in modern conveniences such as electricity and automobiles.

The incident occurred just north of Mount Hope, about 60 miles south of Cleveland.
Copyright © 2003, The Associated Press

Flippy · 09-02-2003, 07:33 PM

Yeah, I agree... on the one hand, something needs to be done about these (stupid, immature) pranks, but on the other hand, it's not worth killing someone over. Road rage has been getting totally out of hand lately, and so has the ease over which an individual can acquire firearms. Putting the two together isn't a great combination...

StormBerlin · 09-02-2003, 07:34 PM

K, although he didn't deserve to die... that was a mean prank. I would be pissed off if someone hit me and my car with tomatoes, and even more upset about the paintballs. Maybe if these people had Cable TV, they would have something better to do....

mirevolver · 09-02-2003, 07:39 PM

Ok, road rage is completly unjustifiable. And it's sad that someone ended up dead.

But still the article is kind of amusing. The last thing you'd expect is an Amish gang shooting paintballs.

Mr. Spacemonkey · 09-02-2003, 07:45 PM

Interesting.

No one deserved to die that's for sure but maybe it will help teach a lesson about foolish pranks.

IC3 · 09-02-2003, 07:59 PM

That's what kids do..No one here has ever thrown an egg at a passing car? I won't even say what I have done with a slingshot. If I had a nickel for every time I pulled pranks like this growing up..I'd be richer than bill gates....A paintball gun, well that's a little different, Those can hurt if you catch one in the mug.

I would be pissed off too...But not to the point where I start blasting shots into the field...I would also remember that they were kids doing what kids do...

Mr. Spacemonkey · 09-02-2003, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by IC3
That's what kids do..No one here has ever thrown an egg at a passing car? I won't even say what I have done with a slingshot. If I had a nickel for every time I pulled pranks like this growing up..I'd be richer than bill gates....A paintball gun, well that's a little different, Those can hurt if you catch one in the mug.

I would be pissed off too...But not to the point where I start blasting shots into the field...I would also remember that they were kids doing what kids do...

First off, no, i have NEVER thrown an egg at a passing car.

Secondly, i don't think that saying, "That's what kids do" justifies what they did. However like i said the guy sure as hell shouldn't have fired the damn shotgun.

DelayedReaction · 09-02-2003, 08:50 PM

It's obvious he didn't intend to kill anyone, or at least that's the impression I got based on the limited information provided. It seems to me like he just shot into a cornfield, figuring he could scare them away.

It's inexecusable, but I don't see how we can translate an accident into a need for gun control. If the pranks are a common thing for the amish teenagers to do, why not clamp down on their stupidity instead?

docbungle · 09-02-2003, 09:43 PM

In this day and age, people need to have the presence of mind to think about how their actions might lead to some sort of violence. If you are going to start some shit with someone, or have this kind of fun at someone else's expense - especially someone you don't even know - then there is really no telling how that person will react.

You have no idea what they've already been through that day or that week, and maybe your little prank is the last in a long line of shitty things that this person is willing to take that day.

When will people learn: do not FUCK with people because things like this happen all the time.

Plan9Senior · 09-02-2003, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dimbulb
tormented by a group of young Amish pranksters who pelted his car with tomatoes

I'm sorry, but did ANYBODY besides me find that hilarious?

Ashton · 09-03-2003, 12:12 AM

I bet the others won't throw crap at cars again...........

Splice · 09-03-2003, 12:33 AM

Wow, I can see the shooter in jail. Hey what are you in here for...

Guy #1: Murder
Guy #2: Robbery
Guy #3: For shooting into a corn field at some Amish kids.

What a moron! It's people like that who are dangerous, with or without guns.

Darkblack · 09-03-2003, 04:55 AM

Quote:

I don't see how we can translate an accident into a need for gun control.

And this is the problem. You gun owners are so scared that someone is going to take away your guns that you will shrug off a Childs murder because you are afraid of tighter gun laws. This man fired a shotgun into a field that he knew had people in it. The people were armed with fruit and paint balls and he decided a shotgun was an equal weapon.

If this were your child that got shot I would hope your opinion would be different.

Bill O'Rights · 09-03-2003, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by docbungle
You have no idea what they've already been through that day or that week, and maybe your little prank is the last in a long line of shitty things that this person is willing to take that day.

When will people learn: do not FUCK with people because things like this happen all the time.

I think that docbungle has a handle on this. These days people are under an enormous amount of pressure. Super long work weeks...assuming that there is a job to go to, Crappy economy, global terrorism, and the list could be endless...you get the idea. Now add some fun loving Amish kids to the mix. They really meant no harm. They were just blowing off some steam. But on <i>this</i> particular day they just so happened to pick the wrong guy to mess with. This was the straw that broke his camel's back. He fought back, and with a vengeance. Rational thought is totaly out the window. Tradgedy ensues. Lives are destroyed. I think that if you peel away the ironic and macabre humor of it, you'll find that it's not going to be as simple as some whack-job going out and blowing some kids away with a shot gun.

Gortexfogg · 09-03-2003, 06:39 AM

This guy is pretty stupid. First off, it's very illeagal to fire loaded firearms from a vehicle. Second, if he just wanted to scare them, why not fire some shots into the air? It's just as scary and no one would get hurt. I guess this event just reaffirms the fact that stupid people and guns don't mix well...

TaLoN · 09-03-2003, 06:45 AM

at least someone died

Kaos · 09-03-2003, 08:52 AM

It's tragic that someone had to die over this, but have you ever been hit by something while you are driving? You momentarily lose control while trying to figure out what the fuck it was that hit your car. And a fraction of a second loss in control can be all it takes to cause a car accident.

MSD · 09-03-2003, 09:56 AM

The guy should be in jail for quite a while. If he had just scared the kids, or even just done some minor damage with a bit of buckshot, I wouldn't be complaining. These kids needed to be taugh a lesson, but it's unfortunate that it resulted in death.

When used irresponsibly, paintballs can break windows, dent cars, take out eyes, and even kill. It's stupid fucktards like these kids who end up getting anti-paintball laws passed and killing the fun for those of us who are smart enough to keep the barrel plugged if there's someone without protective equipment wihtin 300 yards in front of us.

water_boy1999 · 09-03-2003, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TaLoN
at least someone died

Hmmm...not quite sure what your point is here Talon. Whether you mean that one of these kids should have died for being kids and playing a stupid prank, or whether this is just a whimsical response to add to your post count, not too sure there.....

Point #1: Lighten up people, these are kids. Kids will be kids, do stupid things, get into trouble, cause a little mayhem time and again. There will always be kids who test the outer edges of adulthood by getting in as much trouble without being caught.

Point #2: This guy drove back multiple times to continue to get hit. If you ask me, he was almost egging these kids on to throw more tomatoes at him.

Point #3: Road rage is no excuse to bring harm to anyone, regardless of what shit they have been through. Why couldn't he have called the police like anyone else would do? Why did he continue to drive back and forth and egg these kids on?

DelayedReaction · 09-03-2003, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkblack
And this is the problem. You gun owners are so scared that someone is going to take away your guns that you will shrug off a Childs murder because you are afraid of tighter gun laws. This man fired a shotgun into a field that he knew had people in it. The people were armed with fruit and paint balls and he decided a shotgun was an equal weapon.

If this were your child that got shot I would hope your opinion would be different.

Hate to tell ya, but I don't own any guns. So don't assume that everyone who looks objectively at a situation and disagrees with your opinion is some kind of gun-loving nuthead. What good would come of tighter gun laws in this situation? The child's life certainly wouldn't have been saved; the farmer already owned the weapon.

And how tight would the law have to be to prevent this kind of tragedy? Did the man demonstrate some kind of mental illness or a criminal record? Was there indications of something that should have prevented him from owning a firearm? Most likely there was no reason that he shouldn't own that shotgun, so tighter gun laws would do nothing in this case.

What offends me is your need to turn a tragedy into some kind of moral justification for a political cause. Is that all this child means to you? Justification?

Blistex · 09-03-2003, 08:18 PM

Saying that "throwing crap at passing cars is what kids do" is like saying

"Hey, firing shotguns into fields possible containing amish kids is what crazy motorists do at night."

While it's not condoning it, what the hell were they doing that to the same guy over and over again for anyways?

Shauk · 09-03-2003, 08:26 PM

and yet another poster child for gun control makes its way into the media.

god I love the UK, no guns for stupid killings... all the killing there is done on purpose at least.

Tirian · 09-03-2003, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DelayedReaction
And how tight would the law have to be to prevent this kind of tragedy? Did the man demonstrate some kind of mental illness or a criminal record? Was there indications of something that should have prevented him from owning a firearm? Most likely there was no reason that he shouldn't own that shotgun, so tighter gun laws would do nothing in this case.

You know this is a really good point. In Canada where I live, the Gov has enacted a new set of gun control laws that are supposed to create a safer life. From where I sit, all it has done is provide a number of expensive hoops for gun owners to jump through to comply, and cost the tax payers a shitload of $$$$.

Keep in mind that I am not a gun owner, so am exressing this opinion as a sideline observer.

I have seen no drop in the amount of gun related crime on the evening news whatsoever. In fact it appears to be increasing. But this is just my feeling from watching the news etc. The law has not been in place long enough to gather any useful stats yet.

My personal prediction is a rise, not drop, in gun related crime in Canada.

Most people I know all see this new set of laws as a reaction to a specific incident, where a gunman shot and killed a number of women at a school. (Yes an act too terrible for words) What I don't see is any way for this new law to prevent this from happening again.

There is not enough info in the above article to determine if tighter laws could have prevented this specific incident.

legolas · 09-04-2003, 06:43 AM

Quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by dimbulb
tormented by a group of young Amish pranksters who pelted his car with tomatoes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry, but did ANYBODY besides me find that hilarious?

hahaha of course. I thought this was going to be a funny article after I read that.

viejo gringo · 09-04-2003, 07:05 AM

"15 to 23 year olds" is not exactly kids. We have 3, 15 year olds
that were convicted of murder yesterday. They strangeled one
of the kids grand mother with a ribbon---but they are not even
trying to ban the use of ribbons....

guns don't kill---people do...

those people in the cornfield were old enough to know there is a consequence for their actions.

Thraeryn · 09-04-2003, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shauk
god I love the UK, no guns for stupid killings... all the killing there is done on purpose at least.

Yeah, by the Irish. Don't go all high and mighty on us.

Darkblack · 09-04-2003, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DelayedReaction
Hate to tell ya, but I don't own any guns. So don't assume that everyone who looks objectively at a situation and disagrees with your opinion is some kind of gun-loving nuthead

I appologize for my assumption.

Quote:

What good would come of tighter gun laws in this situation? The child's life certainly wouldn't have been saved; the farmer already owned the weapon

Probably true, but just maybe someone who could do something stupid like this couldn't pass a tougher test to get a gun. I know I can go into Wal-Mart right now and by a shotgun. All they do is check my criminal history and have me fill out a form. It is very, very easy to get a gun.

Quote:

And how tight would the law have to be to prevent this kind of tragedy? Did the man demonstrate some kind of mental illness or a criminal record? Was there indications of something that should have prevented him from owning a firearm? Most likely there was no reason that he shouldn't own that shotgun, so tighter gun laws would do nothing in this case

Honestly I was making the statement in general that when stuff like this happens and someone brings up gun control everyone gets up in arms about their right to own guns and so on. In this case now that I have reread it I agree that this probably could not have been prevented other than stricter testing at the initial gun purchase.

Quote:

What offends me is your need to turn a tragedy into some kind of moral justification for a political cause

For one I don't find murder to be a tragedy. Two, when else should you make a moral justification for a political cause? I think this is a perfect time to talk about preventing things like this from happening again. I am also sorry you get offended so easily.

Quote:

Is that all this child means to you? Justification?

This is a blatant attack on my morals and judgment to try and provoke a negative response. I will not give you one. I value all life and feel that most of the gun violence today could be prevented with tighter laws and restrictions.

Darkblack · 09-04-2003, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by viejo gringo
"15 to 23 year olds" is not exactly kids. We have 3, 15 year olds
that were convicted of murder yesterday. They strangeled one
of the kids grand mother with a ribbon---but they are not even
trying to ban the use of ribbons....

guns don't kill---people do...

those people in the cornfield were old enough to know there is a consequence for their actions.

I hate this argument because it is an irrational statement that is like apples and oranges. I can kill you with a ribbon sure but can I do it from 200 yards without you even knowing? You could also try choking me with a ribbon and I bet I could get loose or at least hurt you enough that you would stop choking me. With a gun you can just shoot me dead from a distance. There is a difference.

Do you also feel that murder is a good consequence for throwing a tomato at a car?

IC3 · 09-04-2003, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Spacemonkey
First off, no, i have NEVER thrown an egg at a passing car.

Secondly, i don't think that saying, "That's what kids do" justifies what they did. However like i said the guy sure as hell shouldn't have fired the damn shotgun.

You don't know what you missed then...Fun Fun Fun, Specially getting chased by pissed off Drivers/Homeowners...And watching some of those out of shape guys trying to hop fences...Haha, i remember it like it was yesterday.

That is a part of growing up and being a kid, getting into Fights, Pulling Pranks etc etc...Well it is around here anyways.

DelayedReaction · 09-04-2003, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkblack
Probably true, but just maybe someone who could do something stupid like this couldn't pass a tougher test to get a gun. I know I can go into Wal-Mart right now and by a shotgun. All they do is check my criminal history and have me fill out a form. It is very, very easy to get a gun.

That's the kind of speculation that I love to hear when people want to restrict my civil liberties. It should be easy for a normal citizen to get a firearm.

Quote:

Honestly I was making the statement in general that when stuff like this happens and someone brings up gun control everyone gets up in arms about their right to own guns and so on. In this case now that I have reread it I agree that this probably could not have been prevented other than stricter testing at the initial gun purchase.

Stricter testing? For what? Should we initiate a stupid-teenager test to see how the individual reacts? You can't test for stupidity in human beings.

Quote:

For one I don't find murder to be a tragedy. Two, when else should you make a moral justification for a political cause? I think this is a perfect time to talk about preventing things like this from happening again. I am also sorry you get offended so easily.

Actually I wasn't all that offended, just annoyed. Poor choice of wording on my part. I'm sure the murder was a tragedy for the friends and family of the deceased, and if I recall correctly it was you who seemed to indicate I should feel remorse for the death of a child. Now that the situation has changed, the rhetoric is gone isn't it?

The fact of the matter is that you are blindly grasping at straws. You see that a gun was involved, and immediately jump down my throat and assume I'm a gun-toting idiot. Face it; gun control is not the solution here.

Quote:

This is a blatant attack on my morals and judgment to try and provoke a negative response. I will not give you one. I value all life and feel that most of the gun violence today could be prevented with tighter laws and restrictions.

You're right, it is a blatant attack. Your morals and judgement are wrong; throwing money into more laws and restrictions will do nothing more than inconvenience people who have done nothing wrong.

Quote:

I hate this argument because it is an irrational statement that is like apples and oranges. I can kill you with a ribbon sure but can I do it from 200 yards without you even knowing? You could also try choking me with a ribbon and I bet I could get loose or at least hurt you enough that you would stop choking me. With a gun you can just shoot me dead from a distance. There is a difference.

If a person wants to kill someone, they're going to kill them with any means available. The fact that a gun is better at it then a ribbon is irrelevant; a weapon is only deadly when used.

Exactly what would you consider to be an ideal level of gun control?

Darkblack · 09-04-2003, 10:11 AM

Quote:

That's the kind of speculation that I love to hear when people want to restrict my civil liberties. It should be easy for a normal citizen to get a firearm.

I disagree. I find it funny that people such as yourself will complain about civil liberties yet elect people that are trying to take them away. It is not a 2 way street.

I am not trying to restrict your civil liberties. I don't care if you have a gun. I care about what type, how easy it is for any Joe blow to get one, and how you store said guns.

Quote:

Stricter testing? For what? Should we initiate a stupid-teenager test to see how the individual reacts? You can't test for stupidity in human beings.

Mental stability, education level, gun safety knowledge, and basic laws and regulations should all be tested.

Quote:

Actually I wasn't all that offended, just annoyed. Poor choice of wording on my part. I'm sure the murder was a tragedy for the friends and family of the deceased, and if I recall correctly it was you who seemed to indicate I should feel remorse for the death of a child. Now that the situation has changed, the rhetoric is gone isn't it?

The fact of the matter is that you are blindly grasping at straws. You see that a gun was involved, and immediately jump down my throat and assume I'm a gun-toting idiot. Face it; gun control is not the solution here.

Main Entry: trag·e·dy
Pronunciation: 'tra-j&-dE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -dies
1 a : a medieval narrative poem or tale typically describing the downfall of a great man b : a serious drama typically describing a conflict between the protagonist and a superior force (as destiny) and having a sorrowful or disastrous conclusion that excites pity or terror c : the literary genre of tragic dramas
2 a : a disastrous event : CALAMITY b : MISFORTUNE
3 : tragic quality or element

I do not consider murder a tragedy. It might fall under number 2 but still think it is far worse than that. I am sure the friends and family are NOT using the word tragedy when speaking of this. That is a word used to make it not so bad. I think they would use the word Horrific.

Nothing has changed. I still see you not showing any remorse for the child. I didn't jump down your throat because I thought you were a gun toting anything. I jumped down your throat because you said, "It's obvious he didn't intend to kill anyone, or at least that's the impression I got based on the limited information provided. It seems to me like he just shot into a cornfield, figuring he could scare them away." basically trying to make it so that they guy with the gun wasn't really in the wrong it was those damn kids with their tomatoes.

Quote:

You're right, it is a blatant attack. Your morals and judgement are wrong; throwing money into more laws and restrictions will do nothing more than inconvenience people who have done nothing wrong.

Yeah nothing wrong with shooting kids in a cornfield.

Quote:

If a person wants to kill someone, they're going to kill them with any means available. The fact that a gun is better at it then a ribbon is irrelevant; a weapon is only deadly when used.

Exactly what would you consider to be an ideal level of gun control?

Yes, but like I said with a ribbon it is a lot easier to get away now isn't it? I do not find this irrelevant.

Ideal level of gun control would be no handguns for the public (never happen). No automatic weapons in the hands of the public. Semi-automatic weapons should be regulated with strict testing on gun education, mental stability, and you should need personal references before purchase. All guns should be listed in a public database for tracking and public safety. All guns should be stored in a locked cabinet unloaded. People who own guns and have children should be required to put the children through gun safety and education classes.

I am not saying that stricter laws will prevent all murder and all gun violence. I think it will help our current situation though. Yes it may inconvenience some people because to by their gun it may take a few extra days but if you want to be a hunter it isn't that much of an inconvenience.

This here is an extreme stance. I know that. I also know it will never happen but you asked what level of gun control I was after. This is it.

Shauk · 09-04-2003, 10:25 AM

again like i said, theres a difference between the gun and the ribbon incident.

1. A person with a gun is 100% more likley to kill someone else on accident than a person with a ribbon.
2. A firearm is designed to kill, that is its primary function. nothing more. You may use it for shooting clay pidgeons, that still doesnt change what the intent of the design is.
3. Guns are not allowed in some countries, this means all murders done are actually murders. You cannot "accidentally" knife someone 14 times in the chest.
4. Because of the accidental nature (fabricated or not) of some firearms killings, that little grey area allows many criminals to walk away scott free.

So tell me again how a ribbon vs a gun has ANYTHING to do with intent vs accident.

If you remove the probablility of accidents. There wont be any.

I've always been a big fan of medieval ages anyways, at least people who killed eachother did so with skill, and not a stupid trigger reaction (yeah lets kill amish children, yay!)

poo on guns, poo on this subject.
Yeah it is your right to own a killing tool. I just really dislike how efficient it is at killing when it kills people on accident too.
Thats poor design.

Darkblack · 09-04-2003, 10:32 AM

I would also like to point out that I only mentioned gun laws because of your post. Dimbuld said, "we need a way to get guns out of the hands of idiots" and Flippy said, "...and so has the ease over which an individual can acquire firearms." So I guess you started this argument over those statements. I don't see any other mention of tighter gun laws before your post. I guess you were grasping for straws to start an argument, I only wish would have noticed it sooner and not fallen for it.

Nice highjack though!

alkaloid · 09-04-2003, 10:52 AM

Wow this story really makes me mad. We need stricter gun control and keep the guns away from idiots.

DelayedReaction · 09-04-2003, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkblack I disagree. I find it funny that people such as yourself will complain about civil liberties yet elect people that are trying to take them away. It is not a 2 way street.

Sorry chief, but I'm not republican. Had I not turned 18 four days after the election, I would've abstained.

Quote:

I am not trying to restrict your civil liberties. I don't care if you have a gun. I care about what type, how easy it is for any Joe blow to get one, and how you store said guns.

Mental stability, education level, gun safety knowledge, and basic laws and regulations should all be tested.

That's unacceptable, particularly since all of those are entirely subjective and therefore extremely hard to judge. Individuals who have proven to be a danger to society are already prevented from obtaining a firearm; how are you going to accurately predict those who might be? The answer is you won't.

Quote:

Main Entry: trag·e·dy
Pronunciation: 'tra-j&-dE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -dies
1 a : a medieval narrative poem or tale typically describing the downfall of a great man b : a serious drama typically describing a conflict between the protagonist and a superior force (as destiny) and having a sorrowful or disastrous conclusion that excites pity or terror c : the literary genre of tragic dramas
2 a : a disastrous event : CALAMITY b : MISFORTUNE
3 : tragic quality or element

I do not consider murder a tragedy. It might fall under number 2 but still think it is far worse than that. I am sure the friends and family are NOT using the word tragedy when speaking of this. That is a word used to make it not so bad. I think they would use the word Horrific.

I think it's pretty disastrous, but this is irrelevant.

Quote:

Nothing has changed. I still see you not showing any remorse for the child. I didn't jump down your throat because I thought you were a gun toting anything. I jumped down your throat because you said, "It's obvious he didn't intend to kill anyone, or at least that's the impression I got based on the limited information provided. It seems to me like he just shot into a cornfield, figuring he could scare them away." basically trying to make it so that they guy with the gun wasn't really in the wrong it was those damn kids with their tomatoes.

Yeah nothing wrong with shooting kids in a cornfield.

Please; I wasn't justifying his actions and you know it. There is no doubt that he was in the wrong, but I sincerely doubt he did this out of some malevolent desire to kill. But as I already said, the information is limited.

You jumped down my throat for saying it was an accident, as well as for saying I didn't feel it showed a need for gun control. You immediately assumed I owned guns, and immediately assumed I was trying to justify keeping me guns. You assumed wrong; I simply commented that the situation seemed to me like more than an accident than a deliberate murder, and that as a result the issue of gun control didn't seem that relevant.

Quote:

Yes, but like I said with a ribbon it is a lot easier to get away now isn't it? I do not find this irrelevant.

Ideal level of gun control would be no handguns for the public (never happen). No automatic weapons in the hands of the public. Semi-automatic weapons should be regulated with strict testing on gun education, mental stability, and you should need personal references before purchase. All guns should be listed in a public database for tracking and public safety. All guns should be stored in a locked cabinet unloaded. People who own guns and have children should be required to put the children through gun safety and education classes.

You already pretty much have this. Concealed handguns require permits, automatic weapons are banned, and it's illegal to modify a semi-automatic in such a way as to make it fully automatic.

As for the mental testing and personal references, I think that's way out of line. As I already said, if they're considered a danger to society then they aren't allowed to purchase a firearm. If they can drive a car (an act which poses far more risk to more people than owning a shotgun) and do not possess a criminal record, then they should be allowed to purchase a firearm.

You can't tell people what to do in their own homes. A law on locked gun cabinets is like a law on sodomy; it's unenforcable and a waste of time. As for education, it is the responsibility of the individual to learn gun safety and ensure their kids know it as well. Everyone knows a loaded gun is dangerous, and that you shouldn't play with it. But it still happens.

As for gun registration, do you have any idea how easy it is to modify a weapon such that it doesn't leave a trail? Running a file down the barrel modifies the bullet markings, and similar procedures can be performed on the brass.

Quote:

I am not saying that stricter laws will prevent all murder and all gun violence. I think it will help our current situation though. Yes it may inconvenience some people because to by their gun it may take a few extra days but if you want to be a hunter it isn't that much of an inconvenience.

This here is an extreme stance. I know that. I also know it will never happen but you asked what level of gun control I was after. This is it. [/B]

Psychological exams, educational tests, and examination of personal references would take far more than a few days. You would have to create a mammoth organization just to handle the paperwork of that many records, not to mention people to conduct the testing. And for what? It's not going to catch more people or save any lives; just waste more money.

And frankly I've had enough of that.

Darkblack · 09-04-2003, 12:08 PM

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Sorry chief, but I'm not republican. Had I not turned 18 four days after the election, I would've abstained.

lol. So you don't vote. fine.

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That's unacceptable, particularly since all of those are entirely subjective and therefore extremely hard to judge. Individuals who have proven to be a danger to society are already prevented from obtaining a firearm; how are you going to accurately predict those who might be? The answer is you won't.

I disagree. I think we could come up with a system.

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Psychological exams, educational tests, and examination of personal references would take far more than a few days. You would have to create a mammoth organization just to handle the paperwork of that many records, not to mention people to conduct the testing. And for what? It's not going to catch more people or save any lives; just waste more money.

And frankly I've had enough of that.

We waste money on tons of things such as recalls, wars, war or drugs, increasing our military, leasing airplanes before buying them, etc. I think we can come up with enough money to fund a project that might save lives.

We will have to agree to disagree. Thanks for posting your opinions.

hundred-peons · 09-04-2003, 05:30 PM

lol the funniest thing about the whole article, is that these Amish don't believe in electricity or automobiles, but they were using paintball guns wtf

This is darwinism at it's best. The rifle killed the indians, the bomb killed the japs, this time all it took was a shotgun.

Don't smack a pit bull on the face and expect to keep your hand.

Vyk · 09-04-2003, 06:52 PM

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Originally posted by hundred-peons

This is darwinism at it's best. The rifle killed the indians, the bomb killed the japs, this time all it took was a shotgun.

Wow, ignorance and hatred all wrapped into one. I'm impressed. It's not every day that I get to experience that kind of efficiency.

nostalgic1 · 09-04-2003, 07:50 PM

from what i understand, those amish kids just didn't know when to quit... although no one deserved to die...

i can't imagine being mad enough to just start shooting into a cornfield with a shotgun..

i mean....damn.

DelayedReaction · 09-04-2003, 10:42 PM

The pleasure was all mine.

09-02-2003, 07:34 PM	#3 (permalink)
StormBerlin Happy as a hippo Location: Southern California	K, although he didn't deserve to die... that was a mean prank. I would be pissed off if someone hit me and my car with tomatoes, and even more upset about the paintballs. Maybe if these people had Cable TV, they would have something better to do.... __________________ "if anal sex could get a girl pregnant i'd be tits deep in child support" Arcane

09-02-2003, 07:39 PM	#4 (permalink)
mirevolver Inspired by the mind's eye. Location: Between the darkness and the light.	Ok, road rage is completly unjustifiable. And it's sad that someone ended up dead. But still the article is kind of amusing. The last thing you'd expect is an Amish gang shooting paintballs. __________________ Aside from my great plans to become the future dictator of the moon, I have little interest in political discussions.

09-02-2003, 07:45 PM	#5 (permalink)
Mr. Spacemonkey Wake up Location: Nowhere special	Interesting. No one deserved to die that's for sure but maybe it will help teach a lesson about foolish pranks. __________________ "I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko

09-02-2003, 08:50 PM	#8 (permalink)
DelayedReaction BFG Builder Location: University of Maryland	It's obvious he didn't intend to kill anyone, or at least that's the impression I got based on the limited information provided. It seems to me like he just shot into a cornfield, figuring he could scare them away. It's inexecusable, but I don't see how we can translate an accident into a need for gun control. If the pranks are a common thing for the amish teenagers to do, why not clamp down on their stupidity instead? __________________ If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

09-02-2003, 09:43 PM	#9 (permalink)
docbungle It's all downhill from here Location: Denver	In this day and age, people need to have the presence of mind to think about how their actions might lead to some sort of violence. If you are going to start some shit with someone, or have this kind of fun at someone else's expense - especially someone you don't even know - then there is really no telling how that person will react. You have no idea what they've already been through that day or that week, and maybe your little prank is the last in a long line of shitty things that this person is willing to take that day. When will people learn: do not FUCK with people because things like this happen all the time. __________________ Bad Luck City

09-02-2003, 07:33 PM	#2 (permalink)
Flippy Banned Location: Greater Vancouver	Yeah, I agree... on the one hand, something needs to be done about these (stupid, immature) pranks, but on the other hand, it's not worth killing someone over. Road rage has been getting totally out of hand lately, and so has the ease over which an individual can acquire firearms. Putting the two together isn't a great combination...

09-02-2003, 07:59 PM	#6 (permalink)
IC3 Poison Location: Canada	That's what kids do..No one here has ever thrown an egg at a passing car? I won't even say what I have done with a slingshot. If I had a nickel for every time I pulled pranks like this growing up..I'd be richer than bill gates....A paintball gun, well that's a little different, Those can hurt if you catch one in the mug. I would be pissed off too...But not to the point where I start blasting shots into the field...I would also remember that they were kids doing what kids do...

09-03-2003, 12:12 AM	#11 (permalink)
Ashton PORNHOUND Location: California	I bet the others won't throw crap at cars again...........

09-03-2003, 12:33 AM	#12 (permalink)
Splice Crazy	Wow, I can see the shooter in jail. Hey what are you in here for... Guy #1: Murder Guy #2: Robbery Guy #3: For shooting into a corn field at some Amish kids. What a moron! It's people like that who are dangerous, with or without guns.

09-03-2003, 06:39 AM	#15 (permalink)
Gortexfogg I and I Location: Stillwater, OK	This guy is pretty stupid. First off, it's very illeagal to fire loaded firearms from a vehicle. Second, if he just wanted to scare them, why not fire some shots into the air? It's just as scary and no one would get hurt. I guess this event just reaffirms the fact that stupid people and guns don't mix well...

09-03-2003, 06:45 AM	#16 (permalink)
TaLoN Loser Location: MI	at least someone died

09-03-2003, 08:52 AM	#17 (permalink)
Kaos Ssssssssss Location: Ontario	It's tragic that someone had to die over this, but have you ever been hit by something while you are driving? You momentarily lose control while trying to figure out what the fuck it was that hit your car. And a fraction of a second loss in control can be all it takes to cause a car accident.

09-03-2003, 09:56 AM	#18 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	The guy should be in jail for quite a while. If he had just scared the kids, or even just done some minor damage with a bit of buckshot, I wouldn't be complaining. These kids needed to be taugh a lesson, but it's unfortunate that it resulted in death. When used irresponsibly, paintballs can break windows, dent cars, take out eyes, and even kill. It's stupid fucktards like these kids who end up getting anti-paintball laws passed and killing the fun for those of us who are smart enough to keep the barrel plugged if there's someone without protective equipment wihtin 300 yards in front of us.

09-03-2003, 08:18 PM	#21 (permalink)
Blistex Psycho Location: Tiger I Turret	Saying that "throwing crap at passing cars is what kids do" is like saying "Hey, firing shotguns into fields possible containing amish kids is what crazy motorists do at night." While it's not condoning it, what the hell were they doing that to the same guy over and over again for anyways?

09-03-2003, 08:26 PM	#22 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	and yet another poster child for gun control makes its way into the media. god I love the UK, no guns for stupid killings... all the killing there is done on purpose at least.

09-04-2003, 07:05 AM	#25 (permalink)
viejo gringo Registered User Location: Deep South Texas	"15 to 23 year olds" is not exactly kids. We have 3, 15 year olds that were convicted of murder yesterday. They strangeled one of the kids grand mother with a ribbon---but they are not even trying to ban the use of ribbons.... guns don't kill---people do... those people in the cornfield were old enough to know there is a consequence for their actions.

09-04-2003, 10:25 AM	#32 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	again like i said, theres a difference between the gun and the ribbon incident. 1. A person with a gun is 100% more likley to kill someone else on accident than a person with a ribbon. 2. A firearm is designed to kill, that is its primary function. nothing more. You may use it for shooting clay pidgeons, that still doesnt change what the intent of the design is. 3. Guns are not allowed in some countries, this means all murders done are actually murders. You cannot "accidentally" knife someone 14 times in the chest. 4. Because of the accidental nature (fabricated or not) of some firearms killings, that little grey area allows many criminals to walk away scott free. So tell me again how a ribbon vs a gun has ANYTHING to do with intent vs accident. If you remove the probablility of accidents. There wont be any. I've always been a big fan of medieval ages anyways, at least people who killed eachother did so with skill, and not a stupid trigger reaction (yeah lets kill amish children, yay!) poo on guns, poo on this subject. Yeah it is your right to own a killing tool. I just really dislike how efficient it is at killing when it kills people on accident too. Thats poor design.

09-04-2003, 10:32 AM	#33 (permalink)
Darkblack Banned Location: Pennsytuckia	I would also like to point out that I only mentioned gun laws because of your post. Dimbuld said, "we need a way to get guns out of the hands of idiots" and Flippy said, "...and so has the ease over which an individual can acquire firearms." So I guess you started this argument over those statements. I don't see any other mention of tighter gun laws before your post. I guess you were grasping for straws to start an argument, I only wish would have noticed it sooner and not fallen for it. Nice highjack though!

09-04-2003, 10:52 AM	#34 (permalink)
alkaloid Dead Inside Location: East Coast, USA	Wow this story really makes me mad. We need stricter gun control and keep the guns away from idiots.

09-04-2003, 05:30 PM	#37 (permalink)
hundred-peons Upright	lol the funniest thing about the whole article, is that these Amish don't believe in electricity or automobiles, but they were using paintball guns wtf This is darwinism at it's best. The rifle killed the indians, the bomb killed the japs, this time all it took was a shotgun. Don't smack a pit bull on the face and expect to keep your hand.

09-04-2003, 07:50 PM	#39 (permalink)
nostalgic1 Insane Location: Location: Location: Location:	from what i understand, those amish kids just didn't know when to quit... although no one deserved to die... i can't imagine being mad enough to just start shooting into a cornfield with a shotgun.. i mean....damn. __________________ I dare you to forget the marks you left across my neck from those nights when we were both found at our best. Now I could make this obvious, and you..you could deny me all in one breath. You could shrug me off your shoulders. Just forget me.. it's that simple.

09-04-2003, 10:42 PM	#40 (permalink)
DelayedReaction BFG Builder Location: University of Maryland	The pleasure was all mine. __________________ If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.