billege

1,828 words of my opinion. I hope it adds something.

This was initially my response to warrrreagl on my thread "Hip Hop Holds Blacks Back." But, it grew in scope enough I felt it warrented it’s own thread. I believe I’ve raised at least 10 new points worth talking over.
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The following article is written by a 25 year old, White male (me), who takes responsibility for his race perpetrating slavery on the black race.

You think that’s easy to say? Try saying it sometime.

Admit the White race in America built the USA on the backs of beaten black men, and raped black women. Our fledgling country built its first agricultural economy with free, slave, labor.
Owning it is the first step to righting it.

"There is no pressure (or reward) in black society to behave."
-- warrrreagl

So, if there was pressure, say...music that encouraged useful behavior, there might be an increase in Blacks that act like their successful brethren; and, even achieve such success themselves.

But, there is no pressure to behave, right? The pressure is to "respect the value of thuggery." So, hip hop holds Blacks back.

(Just FYI , I am not responding to you, warrrreagl, from this point on. I intend this treatise to be for the general audience.)

The author never said that hip hop is the main source of Blacks’ problems. Lots of responses here responded to this article as if it did, but it did not.

The article said hip hop holds Blacks back, that’s it.

The average suburban White guy or girl isn't all that deep. S/he shops at wal-mart, works, takes care of the kids, shits, eats, and repeats the next day. S/he is mostly exposed to black "culture" through the farce that is MTV, or maybe flipping past BET. S/he also sees the wanna-be thugs at the mall, all blinged out. So, it's not too much of a reach for the avg. White Joe to decide that black people really are like the cartoon fools in the videos.

You don't think I, or a White woman that watches “Days of our Lives” religiously, to take an idiot called "50 cent" seriously, do you? Do you think the avg. Joe does either? Please, we’ve seen his type “50” times before. Wake me when his 15 minutes are up.

People aren't perfect. If the exposure one has is this hip hop crap from TV, and then some reinforcement comes from real life, the White guy is going to decide, “well, maybe black people DO act like that.”
So, Whitey doesn't hate hip hoppers, s/he just thinks they're kind of silly, but figures, hey that's their thing. Okay.
Whitey also takes Blacks less seriously because of this.
It's not a matter of degree, that is going to hold Blacks back.

More to the point, it doesn't even matter (that much) that hip hop IS holding Blacks back. What matters is that the majority of Blacks don't care about being held back.
Sure, many do, and I feel bad that they get lumped in the same group as other, less deserving, Blacks. But, hey, I get dumped in the "White" group with all of my cracker brothers from the trailer park, so I guess it works out.

Either way, Blacks are not achieving as they should, in the numbers they should.
The Hispanics are the ones making progress; they've surpassed the Blacks as the largest ethnic minority, and they're accumulating more wealth, faster, than Blacks are.

I understand that Blacks, because of slavery, do not have the accumulated wealth that immigrants had. You can argue with me on that point: that Blacks still aren’t feeling the effects of slavery and immigrants of White or Yellow color had it just as bad.
But, you'd be wrong.
Look into this enough, and some very strong points make my position stable. I will try to expound.

Blacks didn't legally have the same rights as everyone else until the sixties. Do you understand what that means? Even the most looked down-upon White minority, say the Jews, or the Italians, was better than a black man. Everyone suffers some prejudice, but Blacks weren't even legally considered as good as the White until 30 years ago. That means these hip hop thugs are the first generation of Blacks to sit at whatever counter they want to. As it should be.

That aside, this first generation of “truly free” Blacks still suffers the stigma of slavery. When one looks at a black person, one may remember that only three generations ago, this person could be owned. Try looking at an Asian, or Hispanic and seeing that. Better yet, try looking at a White French person and seeing that. Even TWO generations ago that black person could seriously face being murdered, for “stepping out of place,” at the hands of a White society that did not REALLY think a black was as good as a White.
Our White grandfathers had separate drinking fountains for crying out loud! We all say OUR grandpa would never do that, but many of ours DID. It happened, and it we shouldn't forget that.

This generation of black men should be ashamed of hip hoppers. Instead they aspire to slap hoes and drive Bentleys. MLK did not dedicate his life to bling. Malcolm X would be PISSED OFF to see his black brothers and sisters “shaking that ass.” Clowns and fools…

Okay, you ask “Why do black people have this burden?” “White people can shake their asses all day, and no one accuses Brittany Spears of holding Whites back, right?”

I’ll tell you why Black America has this challenge laid at their doorstep.

White America has proven itself. The richest man in the world is White. The most wealth in this country is held by White people. We’ve proven ourselves capable, and now we are free to lose it all, if we so choose. (Which, we may be…)

Black America has NOT proven itself. Black individuals have. Colin Powell proved himself. MLK did. Malcolm X did. Numerous black business men have proved themselves. But Black America has not. Black America has worked long and hard for its freedoms, and now it is utterly wasting them. Black America has earned, in fact created, a reputation for being a bunch of inner city gangbanging rappers. Movies like “Friday,” “Boyz in the Hood,” even crap like “How High” have displayed for America what Blacks are.
People see you how you choose to present yourself. Blacks present themselves as hip hoppers. They say, “We’ll change the rules, we have our own rules.”

Well, that only works if you make the rules. White America makes the rules.

Boy, is that offensive when said out loud.

But hey, too bad. The truth hurts. Our country is run by the quintessential rich White boy, so dispute me at your peril.

If Black America wants to make the rules, fine. Go ahead. The power in America is up for grabs every 4 years. There millions of black voters, and there are enough White people that WOULD vote for a black president, along with the other minority voters.

But hey, black politicians are busy worrying about the fact that hurricanes aren’t named “Daneshia.” Wow, that’s a great leader right there.
The fact that a black person even said anything that stupid underscores my point. This elected leader, obviously a supporter of the black race, is worried that a storm is not named after her type of person. If she didn’t know that there are more important things to worry about, she is a fool and deserves to be treated as such.
What Black America doesn’t deserve is the shadow she casts.

Back to my earlier point, if Blacks want to play by their own rules, they need the power to make the rules. Right now, Blacks can act however they want. But, no one has to take them seriously about it. Therein lies the fatal flaw. If the only power one has is in one’s own sub-group, then there is no power.
If Black America wants power to play by its rules, it must achieve that power.
There is no move to even head in that direction.
Black America is collapsing under it’s own weight, and there appear to be no black leaders willing to step up.

Black culture is self absorbed, confused, and adolescent. Black culture is not surprisingly so, because there has not been the freedom in America for Black culture to develop properly. Whites have held it back for generations.

So, White America is to blame. Yeah, so what? We know that, we knew that. But knowing doesn’t make a difference, does it?

Black America needs to stop giving a shit about those who held it back. Black America needs to stop believing the way to succeed is throwing a football, hitting a baseball, or making a slam dunk. Dominating professional sports is not the way to go.
What, you think Black people are naturally better athletes? No, Black people chose to focus on athletics as the key to success. White people have better things to do, like owning the team. How many college football teams are coached by a black man? Two? One? Now, how many college football players are black? Where are the Hispanic ballplayers? I dunno, but Black America might want to look into it. There are more Hispanics than Blacks, so it’s a good question.

Granted, initially the avenues of success allowed by the White establishment were few and far between, sports happened to be one of those allowed by the White man. Times have progressed Black America! Your own people sacrificed their lives to it! You can do more than throw a fucking ball now!

How will Black America ever get what it deserves unless it takes it? Taking political control of America is so possible right now it’s silly. There is little holding White people together, the Hispanics don’t care what Whitey does, because they plan on owning this whole thing soon anyway. The black man is lost in the melee unless he takes control now.

Black America needs a strong leader, one who could make Blacks feel ashamed for the lack of direction, focus, and achievement (in the past 30 years) it has now.

Black America is never going to be given anything, and it needs to stop behaving as if that’s going to happen.

Hip Hop is the epitome of acting like there is no tomorrow, and everything is owed to the individual. Hip Hop is the philosophy of wealth without achievement.
That philosophy is not helping anyone, and thus, it’s hurtful.

If you’re not helping you’re hurting.
If you’re not with me, you’re against me.

Recognizing hip hop’s hurtfulness is one of the first steps.
Black America needs to wake up and take what it’s owed.

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

Darkblack

Hip-hop is only music. If you want to blame hip-hop for black society having a hard time then I blame country music for racism, trailer parks, Ford F350's, and Cowboy hats. We could be better off without all of those.

What is holding back African Americans is the large gap in education. Look at the schools most of our politicians went to. Look at the neighborhoods they grew up in. I don't have the figures in front of me but I bet if you compared the white people living in those areas and going to school at those schools to black people you would see a very large difference.

When we as a county can provide the same education to young black people and give them an opportunity to grow up the same way as white people we cannot expect them to produce an equal number of politicians. Right now their are only a few ways for a black person to make it. The military like Powell, the church like King, Jackson and Sharpton, Sports, Rap, or the 1 in a million that actually makes it out of the ghetto with hard work. Getting out with just hard work usually takes someone who is extremely gifted and can teach themselves.

We also need to look at the parental units of the average black family. As the children of slaves money and education are not passed down like in the average white family. Their below average life style has nothing to do with bling bling or hip hop. It has to do with segregation and the lack of education. In a couple hundred years I am sure African Americans will be caught up with White America. We had a 200-year head start with them pulling much of the weight. To speed up this process we need better social programs in place to help educate parents on how to raise their children and provide a proper and structured home. Education needs to be regulated better to where each school has the same cash flow, the same quality educators, and the same curriculum. We need cheaper day care so that single mothers can work yet still spend quality time with their children after school and at night. There is no reason day care should be more than a car loan a month. That extra cash could be going to a college fund for the children.

So in conclusion Hip-hop is not holding African American people down. It is the short period of time that they have actually been considered people.

sexymama

Wow -- hot topic! Darkblack is right on! Also, keep in mind that there are many positive black leaders. The richest woman in America is Oprah. Mia Angelo is a phenomenal writer and inspiring speaker. Even tho I don't agree with the outcome, OJ Simpson proved that money does "buy justice." Let's not stereotype all african americans based on a few! Just as we shouldn't stereotype "white trash" or "gays" or any other "sub group" in our culture. We all have the opportunity to succeed or not succeed. We are blessed to live in a country that enables us to learn and grow. What we do with that freedom is our choice -- including having the right to choose the music we listen to. There was a time when our grandparents thought that rock and roll was the worst thing in America. Maybe we should ban all but classical music!?

__________________
If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

warrrreagl

Billege (damn good response, by the way), this sentence should be bolded, italiced, highlighted in red, placed in all caps, underlined, etc. This is the heart of everything.

I am a big fan of W.E.B. DuBois, and most of your thoughts were written by him (and ignored by most blacks) long ago.

Has anyone ever seen a group of Vietnamese or Koreans demonstrate for equality and civil rights? When a community or society becomes its own economic force, it doesn't have to beg for anything. Asians immigrated to the United States, assimilated themselves without losing a shred of heritage, and learned the rules of the game in America. And the first rule is BECOME AN ECONOMIC FORCE AND THE REST WILL FALL INTO PLACE.

For whatever unknown reason, black society refuses to grasp this simple, yet powerful truth.

Have any of you ever gone into a black-owned business and observed what you see? Typically, I see family members and friends of the business owners staking out turf in the back of the store and giving the store a "closed off" feeling. People don't receive warmth when they walk in; they get intimidation. Customers are stared at and talked about, and they don't like it. The store becomes a hang-out for the owner's friends and family, and that ultimately leads to the demise of the business. Yet, the business owner is under way too much pressure from friends and family to do the right thing, which would be to kick their sorry asses out the door and pay attention to the customers.

Compare that atmosphere with a Korean grocery, or Indian convenience store, or Mexican restaurant.

__________________
Living is easy with eyes closed.

Nizzle

I've been in plenty of Mexican restaurants and Asian restaurants or stores that have family and friends around. I think it is typical of white suburbanites to perceive threat and intimidation from blacks where none exists. Not to mention, to get into these black-owned stores, you generally need to go into a black neighborhood. This isn't something many people are keen to do for various reasons. Such as the area being extremely poor and ridden with crime and hostility.

Back to the original topic, the idea of Hip Hop holding black culture back is absolutely absurd. Despite the author's skin color, that's the whitest thing I've heard in years.

Angry music is not a black staple. This entire discussion rings of all the nasty stuff that has been said about rock music since its inception. These opinions are held by people who simply don't enjoy, understand or appreciate the music. SQUARES!

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Nizzle

Cynthetiq

Another group who has recently learned this truth is the Latino community, the past decade has show truly how powerful they have become as an economic force to a political force. They have reaped the seeds sown by the black civil rights movement. They have exploited everything that the black america fought. Why? Because black america sat back and rested on their laurels.

While they weren't owned, remember that Irish people in the mid 1800's America were denied basic rights and they weren't black. Maybe you think that it's just here in America that Black people are always at the bottom. When there is someone at the top there is someone at the bottom. There cannot be winners without losers, as there cannot be rich without poor.

My thought as to what is holding black america back isn't that they aren't an economic power, but as a whole they have allowed others to capitalize on their strengths all the time. As individuals they do not take responsibility.

I cite Larry Elder's Personal Pledge 32 as one black man's attempt to return something to his culture and community.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Hanxter

ban the bra...

Ganguro

this has nothing to do with music.
it's all about perception and power.

As a black male (though sometime's i'd disagree with you on that) often times im very deeply saddened to see how far race relations have gone in this country. I dont fault white for slavery. Fuck man.. slavery was a good idea from a management pov. I dont fault blacks as a whole entirely for buying into sterotypes and being the "poor minority".. i fault everyone equally for satisfying their own self interest. I cannot speak for white america so i will not attempt to.. i can just speculate on what i've seen in my community.

I grew up in Gary,Indiana, and while it doesnt have the problems as a new york, houstin, or detroit has.. it's got it's reputation as being a very undesireable place to live.. no matter what race you are. What i say in my youth was a community full of excuses. "the white man holds us down" ,"the government is anti-black", "Oh we are oppressed". While some aspects of these things could be true.. you are a fool if you don't attempt to do anything about it. Complaining without action is useless, but a lot of people that can change things generally have their best interests in mind. I dont contribute this as being a "selfinsh minority issue" , but recognize it as human nature to be self preserving.

I feel that a lot of blacks, and i could even go out on a limb here and say a lot of minorities in general, are waiting for someone to sae them. Some great figure to rise from their ranks and lead them to financial and emotional prosperity. If people started acting in a way that could help them transcend the stigmas associated with their race, while not totally abandoning that aspect of themselves maybe things could change for the culture as a whole. Unfortunately for multiple reasons that task is damn near impossible to acheive in a westernized world.

MacGnG

white male, 19.

parent involvement in their child's education, after school programs, community support

if you dont try, no one can help you.

my mom is a teacher in an inner city school, and i've always been an inner city student.

World's King

What's holding the black man back?


The White She-Devil

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

yournamehere

<i>or the 1 in a million that actually makes it out of the ghetto with hard work. </i>

If only one in a million worked hard enough to better their lives, that would explain everything right there. But I think you've exxagerated to make a point.

I worked my way through college - sometimes two jobs - and took advantage of every scholarship and grant avalable to me. even with all that, I still had to take out a loan for my final year - but I got through it all.

The ironic part of it is - since I'm a white male, I was ineligible for many of the scholarships and grants that were available to minorities and women.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not going to go on that "Gee - we white men sure have it bad" argument - but then again - it doesn't really matter how hard opportunity knocks if you don't plan on opening the door, does it?

As far as hip hop goes, I will just say that I've seen better role models, but don't forget - for every 50 cent, there's a Kid Rock - the music industry <i>in general</i> hasn't given us the best role models for a few generations.

__________________
If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors:
"If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too."
It won't hurt your fashion sense, either.

warrrreagl

Just to be clear on what I meant about black-owned businesses, I was specifically referring to how all customers are treated, not just non-black customers. I've seen black-owned businesses fail when their entire clientele was from the black community.

First of all, the community won't get behind the black-owned business and help out. Secondly, the customers feel intimidated no matter what color they are simply by the family and friends who hang out in the store.

And for the record, I've encountered throngs of Mexicans in Mexican restaurants and not felt intimidated at all. I've also encountered throngs of Mexicans in an amusement park and felt VERY threatened. The difference is in the attitude they project toward me.

I believe that the shitty attitude that customers encounter from family members in black-owned businesses is what causes them to take their trade elsewhere; not skin color.

__________________
Living is easy with eyes closed.

Darkblack

Yes that was just a statement to make my point. I am sure the real numbers are not as drastic. It is kind of like saying the chances of so and so getting a date is 1 in a million. If so and so went to a bar I am sure he could pull a date out of the 100 people there. The statement just paints a picture.

Did you go to an inner city school which had low test scores which lowers the amount of cash the school had to hire quality teachers and provide antiquate materials for learning?

Remember that the parents of today’s young blacks were children of parents that were segregated and discriminated against. The structure of the black family is still being built and without help it will take these families a few generations to build a stable environment to pass down to their children. Without proper parenting and education how can you expect someone to notice an opportunity?

yournamehere

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Darkblack
Did you go to an inner city school which had low test scores which lowers the amount of cash the school had to hire quality teachers and provide antiquate materials for learning?/QUOTE]

No - I can't say that I did. Actually, I went to a very good high school.

But that wasn't relevant - I couldn't afford a 4-year university at the time, so I went to a Community College for the first 2 years - and High School GPA wasn't an issue. My admittance to the University two years later was based on my GPA at the Community College.

I see your point though - I would agree that I probably had a better "education foundation" on which to build than someone from an inner-city school. There was no "catching up " to do - but if there were, it wouldn't have affected the outcome, only the timetable.

But I will still assert that the opportunities are out there for anyone with the will and commitment to succeed. Sure - it'll be easier for some than others, but the opportunities are there.

BTW - when I wrote about "<i>it doesn't really matter how hard opportunity knocks if you don't plan on opening the door, does it?"</i>, I meant that to include <i>everyone</i>. I didn't mean for anyone to infer that I was speaking only about blacks.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Darkblack
Remember that the parents of today’s young blacks were children of parents that were segregated and discriminated against. The structure of the black family is still being built and without help it will take these families a few generations to build a stable environment to pass down to their children. Without proper parenting and education how can you expect someone to notice an opportunity?/QUOTE]

I'm sorry - but I'm not buying that - Three generations down and a few more to go? How many generations is enough? The life my grandparents led had very little effect on my life. The effect <i>their</i> parents' lives had on my life is absolutely zero.

And nobody should have to learn to "notice" an opportunity - they're a product of the choices we make in life, and they exist every day. I'ved personally watched many slip away because of the bad choices I've made over my lifetime.

As a culture, perhaps we change too slowly, but <i>as individuals</i>, we all have the capacity to change at a pace we choose.

__________________
If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors:
"If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too."
It won't hurt your fashion sense, either.

Darkblack

You are wrong here. Your parents learned everything they know about raising kids from their parents. They learned everything they know about being an adult from their parents. Your Grandparents learned what they know from their parents and passed it down. They passed down the knowledge they have through parenting. They also provided the opportunity to go to college and get a job. They helped you by setting a good example with their work ethic. The grandparents of today’s black parents did not hold jobs. They were slaves. They didn't read or write, at least not most of them and they passed down little knowledge. Their kids had to learn this stuff on their own. When they finally were aloud to read and write they didn't have parents to ask for help because their parents didn't know. So the skills that you learn from your parents and take for granted were not available to some kids.

vermin

I respectfully disagree. The slaves were captured by Dutch slave traders and purchased by English colonists and later English-decended Americans. A lot of the white people in this country are progeny of the immigration boom that happened years after slavery was abolished. My family didn't get to America (from Germany) until the early 1880's and none of us ever owned anybody. White is not a race, but a collection of many different races.

That's a little harsh considering that slavery was mainly a feature of the agricultural South. It is also my opinion that industrial progress did a hell of a lot more to "build this country" than cotton and tobacco farmers.

And not to nitpick, but most slaves were treated decently by their owners. Not as equals, true, and that's why slavery sucks; but not all were beaten and/or raped or otherwise treated the way Hollywood (Roots) would have you believe. Just as resposible farmers today treat their livestock well (it's where their living comes from), I tend to believe that most slave owners weren't cruel, sadistic, perverts.

Other than that, I thought your views were expressed clearly, your opinions well thought out and your article interesting. I'd be tempted to agree with it, however, I don't think I'm qualified. I don't know much about Hip-Hop and I can count on one hand the number of black people I've known.

__________________
If puns were sausages, this would be the wurst.

billege

vermin, I've got to vehamently disagree that slaves were treated decently. The idea than an owned human being can be treated decently is flawed. The ideas are opposites. The mere fact of being owned by another human is so dehumanizing, I really can't believe anyone say "decent" in the same sentance.

When a human being is seen, and treated, like LIVESTOCK the entire experiance is identity rape.

Have you read Roots? I have. Alex Haley did not make up the story to sell as a movie script. The book is what the man found while discovering where he came from.

I feel bad that you seem to have accepted the propoganda which suggests that slaves weren't really treated that badly. Hell, they were just pets...

I want you to understand that even if a human is treated as well as a pet, that human is as debased as a raped baby. Do you understand that? Imagine being owned...would being treated like a dog be okay with you?
Imagine never, ever, having control over your life. Imagine your sons and daughters taken from you and sold. Heck, they're just pets, right? Pets breed and you sell the offspring you don't need.
Listen, I'll stop harping on that point, but I hope you realize that in slavery it is impossible to be "decent."

Industrial progress did make a large contribution to our nation. Let's just remember what came first, and the order in which our country built it's economy.

First came the settlers. They trapped and ate what they could. Eventually they learned what grew well in America, and they grew it. The 13 colonies were overwhelmingly farm based. Industry only came after the farms.

I'd also like to dispel the myth that northerners were Black friends. Many, many northerners dispised Blacks just like southerners. Many yankees blamed the civil war on the blacks. The south got the worse reputation, deservedly. However, let's not excuse the north for the part it played too. Blacks were animals wherever they went. Exceptions were few and far between.

For examples of how shitty the north could be, read the autobiography of Malcom X, as told to Alex Haley. Young Malcom grew up (some) in East Lansing, Michigan (Home to MSU). Many MSU students, and Americans in general, would be suprised to know that not even 40 years ago, blacks were forbidden from holding many jobs, and were not allowed in town after dark. Think about that number, 40 years. That means the parents of todays black youth had to watch what streets they were allowed on after dark. That's <i>recent</i> people. It didn't happen to long dead generations, it happend to your fathers, and your neighbors. Disgusting, isn't it?

I thank you for your complimentary words. You also express yourself well.


I'd like to throw in one quick shot about the music. It's far from my main concern here, but I still feel strongly about it.

I will ask a question:

The attitude displayed in lots of hip hop is women debasing, self-centered, self-indulgent, agressive, and violent.

Who exactly is that good for?

"War. What is it good for? Absolutely NOTHING!"

Same idea.

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

HeadyIncognito

I'd like to point out that not all hip-hop is the same, nor is it exclusivley an african american music... A lot of hip hop is extremley progressive and political. Plus, you're being extremley general about black people as a whole. Uniformity is not always the answer. Sometimes, you need to break old rules to make new ones. And I'd rather be uncomfortable that stuck in a homogenous society any day.

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Even Hitler had a girlfriend...

Nizzle

To add to those thoughts, please learn to recognize tongue-in-cheek. Realize that this isn't the exclusive property of white males. Believe it or not, black males can make use of this literary element to great effect. Just because you think it's trash does not make it so.

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Nizzle

Cynthetiq

remember that white people were also "slaves" at some point in history.....

read up on the words, "indentured servant."

as far as war what is it good for? it's good for bringing about change, as is the socio-political commentary of the hip hop music, along with rock, punk, and even the hippie music...

A time of love, a time of hate
A time of war, a time of peace
A time you may embrace, a time to refrain from embracing

To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time for every purpose, under Heaven

A time to gain, a time to lose
A time to rend, a time to sew
A time to love, a time to hate
A time for peace, I swear it's not too late

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

GSRIDER

More than anything I believe all race issues are class issue.

Money = education.

Education = oppourtunity

I live in Kansas City and our public school system lost it's state recogonized accreditation. Which means our public schools are so poor and run down that the state has us on constant probabtion and colleges turn their noses at the names of our schools.

There are poor white kids too, white kids who will never leave the trailor park, who will never break the cycle of poverty.

The music they listen to is just fuel under their personal flames and it's not going to run them down. Look at all the rich white kids who listen to hip Hop... it's not holding them back.

They'll go to their private schools, and drive thier fancy cars, and then go to college and get drunk and move on.

Money = Education
Education = Oppourtunity

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funbob

I loved the "White-She Devil" shot, precious. On a more serious note, music will always be blammed for causing unrest. I think the problem is much, much deeper than simply music.

phoenix1002

This is a little off topic, but am I the only one to whom this make no sense? "This school is having trouble teaching their students. Lets take away their money. I'm sure they'll be able to do a better job that way..."

I work with inner city kids in Bridgeport (one of the poorest cities in the US) which is inside Fairfield County, CT, one of the richest counties in the US-that's including Bridgeport. The school I went to has more and better equipment than many colleges. The schools in Bridgeport have very little in comparison. Big surprise here...the Fairfield students tend to do much better on their tests than the Bridgeport students. I wonder why.

There are other reasons why many Black people have trouble succeeding in life. When I graduated from high school, there was no doubt in anyone's mind that I would be going to college. I believe that almost everyone in my class of 300 or so went to some sort of secondary education, except for a few who joined the armed forces, and one or two who started working.

Look at the typical city school's graduating class. First off, the class size has probably dropped considerably since freshman year, sometimes by as much as half. Many of the girls can expect to be pregnant sometime between ages 16 and 20. That's not exactly conducive to getting a good education. Also, these students just are not expected to go to college. Some do. Some manage to get a good education. However, many more do not.

I think education is closer to the root of this problem than the music. Glamourizing the "gangsta" life, the "easy money-excessive spending" lifestyle often portrayed in hip-hop doesn't help, but I wouldn't go as far as blaming the music. That seems like blaming Columbine on the game Doom, or any of the other things used as scapegoats. Equalize the education opportunities, not by decreasing those of the better schools, but rather by giving more money to those schools that really could use the help. How about shaving a bit off the military budget, and give it to education. How much does a tank cost? A nuclear sub? Imagine if the money for even one of those things was given to a school, or a district, even. Think of what they could do to improve the education provided. I think that might solve some of our problems, including homelessness, unemployment, and the general ignorance that seems so prevalent in our society at times.

__________________
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I approach college much like a recovering alcoholic--one day at a time...

Darkblack

Exactly. Thanks for bumping this post up again and voicing a logical opinion.

I really think we should talk more about it. This really is a huge issue that needs to be addressed.

Mango

The quick answer to "What is holding Black America back" is "whites."

The US is a very bigoted place no two ways about it.

billege

Wow. Blame whitey.
That's going to be a LOT of help. I'm sure black america will just rise right to the top after realizing it HAS been "the man" all this time.

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Shauk

I think the music itself can truely not contain a seed to bring down an entire race.

I believe the industry that controls the portrayal of individuals in music videos is whats responsible for the negative stigma.

I listen to what many of you would classify as "rave" music, but raves have a huge negative stigma of being drug induced orgy parties. It sucks.


I personally don't listen to hip hop/rap. though, I used to. It only appealed to because it came across to me as hardcore in a very angry time in my life. I also listened to metal. I'm primarily into electronic music now but I was in a weird situation back then however.

so heres a little story
my schooling was interesting. I did well in school because I wanted to. I wanted a future, My parents were divorced, I went with my mom, she went and bought the most run down house in the town (population roughly 1000) (ione, wa - look it up if you can)
she went on an alchohilic binge after the dust settled from the divorce. I never saw her except for when she was home and passed out.

My dad has just retired from the military when they split. we lived in a 250,000$ (market value of about 10 years ago) home with 100 acres
I was left with no family to care for me at this point. my spoiled rotten life of owning 100 acres and 3 ATV's and 4 Sno-mobiles came to a simple halt.
I was now living in the most ghetto place imaginable, no running water, only one room in the entire house with a floor (the back porch where i slept, as did my mom. no electricity, no food. where everyone was a gang banger wannabe, at this point I had never been on the internet, I had no access to what the world was really like.

one day my computer intelligence got me in a world of hurt.
RAM back in this time, was computer GOLD.
my principal, was getting into C.A.D. and this school in the middle of nowhere, adopted tech classes.
I learned how to strip computers down to nothing, identify parts, elementry CAD design, at this school. why? because the principal was a major computer geek. he actually hired an ex-nasa engineer to teach the classes.

me, I was rotten, I would be a thief, I stole all the RAM out of the principals computer in the lab and got caught 2 days later when one of my friends told him.

he scared me into a reality check.
he knew I was into computers, he knew I had potential, so he left me in his office for what seemed like an hour, then told me he decided not to press charges, instead, i was dropped from all my computer related classes, banned from even entering the computer lab, and was put on his duty list for a month. for the next month he made me punch in grades and design speadsheets and all the while, would talk to me about computers.

this guy is a god in my book
instead of having me arrested, he educated me and rehabilitated me better than any juvie hall would have.

I'm 24, I've made a nice little place for myself in this world, but it takes hitting bottom to appreciate what you have when you do have it.

Cynthetiq

not everyone can be as fortunate to learn a good lesson from a bad situation.. some people still want the instant payoff, the quick hit, that is perpetuated all the time in media.

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Darkblack

Not everyone gets help either. Usually a black kid down on his luck goes out and steals something, gets arrested, tried as an adult and sent to jail so he can learn to be a real criminal.

Renegade

didn't read the whole thread but...

I fail to see how shitty Corporate music is holding back an entire race. If you buy into the lifestyle because of the music then you are holding yourself back.

Shauk

well the few lines in my post that i think i might need to requote here...


" think the music itself can truely not contain a seed to bring down an entire race.

I believe the industry that controls the portrayal of individuals in music videos is whats responsible for the negative stigma."

the industry that portrays black people as drunken weed toking pimps and ho's (snoop and lil kim come to mind) well.
they are just as guilty as the artist.

what they need is a movement towards that of intelligent hip hop, without the degredation, stereotypes, disrespect to how women are portrayed. vulgarities im all for free speech but I like to be able to play my music wherever without worrying about getting fired or fined for public indecency if its in a public area (BBQ's etc..)

I dunno, just my 50 cents (har dee har)

Mael

i agree with you 100% on everything except the part i quoted above. we a concerted group effort, anything is possible. we saw that in the 50's with the civil rights movement, and again in the 60's with the whole anti-war movement. i think somewhere in the 70's the idea of working toward societal goals on the scale of previous decades disappeared and has so far not really reappeared at all. the million man march was a good attempt, but even that failed pretty dismally. i think i'm gonna blame disco...

Shauk

Disco should make a comeback, that would be cool.

not cuz of the music but because everyone was goofy and having a good time.

thats what life is good for

Mael

i'm sorry, but the grandparents of todays black parents were not slaves. slaverys been gone for 140 years. even if you give a generation a modest 30 years between each new one, that's still almost 5 generations. my great grandparents weren't born until the 1880's, my grandfathers 1910's, my parents 1940's and myself in '79. So the last generation that could have possibly been slaves were the great great grandparents of todays younger adults (people in their 20's - 30's).

There's been plenty of time for black society as a whole to get their shit together, and many on an individual level have. As a community though, it's been all downhill since the days of the civil rights movements. i could be wrong, but from everything i've ever heard/read/seen, but black society was pretty tight with good family structures back in the day. kids were respectful to their parents and all that.

i think that the breakdown of the family in general is the problem. the nuclear family has broken down for white people just as much as black people. but for whatever reason, white people have handled that breakdown much better than black people, and black society as a whole has suffered and taken 10 steps back from teh days of civil rights.

phoenix1002

I agree with Mael about the changes in family values, and I also think that what Mael says goes along with what I said earlier about education.

Many parents in middle-class suburban settings (generally white-not always, but in most places, usually) are less likely to be single parents, or if they are, they have better-paying jobs than their inner-city counterparts. These parents usually recognize the importance of education for their children, and will try and suggest that importance to their children, as well. So the kids go to school with more of a sense that they need their education to succeed. From my work in Bridgeport, and from what I've seen in other places, this is not the case in many city settings, usually in the Black populations. Often there is much less stress on the importance of education from the parents, not because they don't care about their children, but rather because they have other things that they consider more important. It seems to be much more common for a white person to go against the mainstream to improve his or her education than it seems to be for a black person. It seems that for a black person, the reinforcement of their ethnicity plays a prominent role in their decisions.

However, contrary to what it may seem I'm saying, education is by no means all it will take for Black America to come to stand on truly equal footing. Their society, from whatever influences they obtain it from-hip hop could be a part of it, seems not to prize intelligence as much as white society generally does. As always, there are exceptions to this. However, I'll use a family I've worked with as an example. Two girls, I believe they are about 13 or 14, attend some of the programs I help with. I know for a fact that their parents have taught them proper english grammar, and have them speak that way at home. However, when they are at the programs, the lapse into the stereotypical black speech patterns, such as "No she don't". These girls are bright, know how to speak correctly, yet they fall back to the speech patterns that seem to be promoted by their society, which white society interprets as "unintelligent". I think attitudes have to change in Black America before the real work to attain equality can get in motion.

__________________
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I approach college much like a recovering alcoholic--one day at a time...

Infinite Hybrid

As a 18 almost 19 year old black male I have to say that what is holding black america back is....

(drum roll)


black america itself
What a thought, huh? Like someone mentioned earlier, (I forgot now) they are looking for someone to "save" them from the "bad" government. Sorry, but it isn't going to happen. We need to save ourselves, no one is going to do it for us. No one (black or white) seems to want to put the effort it takes to succeed or do the right thing thus creating the many scapegoats that have came about ("The white man is keeping me down" or "Video games made my children into killers", etc.) No one person - no matter how ignorant they act - can bring down an entire race.

I know this post is just all over and reads like a jumbled mess, I just feel that hip hop is not the reason why black america is held back, but a symbol thereof.

__________________
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like a rehired scab at a barehanded plant
an anesthetic penance beneath
the hail of contraband

phoenix1002

I think Infinite Hybrid just hit it on the head there...

__________________
I'd rather be climbing...

I approach college much like a recovering alcoholic--one day at a time...

bad30th

I think Hip-Hop is a contributing factor to this problem. Lets think about it for a second....how many black children want to grow up and be lawyers, doctors, teachers, etc. Probably quite a few.

Now, how many black children want to grow up to be a **Rap Star**. MILLIONS.

Why? Because thats where the easy money is at. Because you dont need an education to do it. You can even break the laws of this country and probably get away with it. LOL Rap artists ( ) have proven this time and again...even just simple things like their flagrant misuse of the basic foundation of our educational system: THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE. Yes I realize that there are other forms of music with the same problem, but I think you would be hard-pressed to find a modern rap CD that isnt full of slang, word misuse, vulgarity, and basically everything that is anti-educational.

These rappers are role models for the young black communities. If these kids hear nothing but uneducated crap from those role models, then that does have an adverse affect.

thoughts?

Darkblack

Okay, now how many cannot because of their educational system is sub par to that of the "white suburb" education.

Quote:

Now, how many black children want to grow up to be a **Rap Star**. MILLIONS. Why? Because thats where the easy money is at. Because you dont need an education to do it. You can even break the laws of this country and probably get away with it. LOL Rap artists ( ) have proven this time and again...even just simple things like their flagrant misuse of the basic foundation of our educational system: THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE. Yes I realize that there are other forms of music with the same problem, but I think you would be hard-pressed to find a modern rap CD that isnt full of slang, word misuse, vulgarity, and basically everything that is anti-educational.

I might buy into that logic if I was oh, say, a grand wizard in the KKK.

Seriously you think only black kids want to be rappers and musicians? Oh, I guess that megadeath group you have listened to since the mid 80's are educational. My bad. Please.

And for your information there ARE rappers out there that are eructated, do not misuse words, and are not vulgar. I would love to see you get up on stage and freestyle a bit. Maybe you will think twice of your grasp on the English language and your ability to create rhyme and reason together to create music.

Quote:

These rappers are role models for the young black communities. If these kids hear nothing but uneducated crap from those role models, then that does have an adverse affect. thoughts?

Okay, so this is partially true. Who are the white kids rolemodels then? Britney spears? Tommy and Pamela Lee? Ozzy? Emenem?

WhoaitsZ

excuse me. Megadeth has always been very political lyricly. go read their lyrics.

to have a role model only becase they are the same color is goddamned shallow.

i'd certainly hope Tommy Lee isn't a role model. it's a fucking asshole wife beater. Pam (insert current husband surname here) is too high on ego. Ozzy is awesome but certain no role model. emInem would almost work for those who can seperate reality from fantasy.


besides... the problem is all the bling bling because that shit they wear looks heavy. how can they not be held back by a three ton gold bling bling??