08-05-2003, 11:22 PM | #1 (permalink) | |
Watcher
Location: Ohio
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"Hip Hop Holds Blacks Back."
I found the original here.
Information about John H. McWhorter, the author, is available at his mini-bio page. As it may be a point of interest, he is a black man. This is rather long, but it is well thought out, well written, and I think it's rather thought provoking. Without getting in to it too much, right now, I agree with this guy. Quote:
As to the "style and attitude" of hip hop: I'm all for individuality, but building an image based on confrontation and agressiveness is not going to endear one to strangers. I've never thought that the "I hate whitey" message was very helpful. I've thought for some time that most rap is beating a dead horse when it portrays the inner city as bleak. To that, I say "No shit. Did you have anything else to say?" I gained loads of respect for Nas, and his rap about being what you want to be. (Sorry, I don't know the song's name, and I'm only 90% sure it was Nas.) That was a positive rap. I've never heard such a thing. There were even bits of black history in it. I can't believe how many black people, know next to nothing about thier own history. I've read Roots, the autobiography of Malcom X, and I'm working on Alex Haley's "Queen." This doesn't make me a scholar of black history, but I've got an idea. How many rappers know even what's in those two books about "thier peeps?" I feel if black America wanted to achieve, it would, in strides that would stun those who feel blacks can't achieve. However, black people have, in my opinion, very, very few people pushing them to achieve. There are a few white leaders preaching how cool it is to sell drugs, shot cops, and pimp hoes. (Eminem I suppose.) I think the number of positive white, hispanic, and asian role models far outnumber the negatives. But blacks don't have that. Black America has: (in an successful, and acceptable, black way)Rappers, Ballplayers, Johnnie C., Jesse, and a few Actors. Any black man that succeeds, in other that those ways, is a "sellout." Rappers ARE actually leaders. The have exposure, and media power. In the 21st century that IS what makes a leader. If they want to avoid taking the role on, they just show that cowardace is one of the values in their rap. Rappers don't care, they preach how cool it is to not care, and that is one shitty thing to preach.
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I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence: "My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend." Last edited by billege; 08-05-2003 at 11:42 PM.. |
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08-05-2003, 11:44 PM | #2 (permalink) |
And we'll all float on ok...
Location: Iowa City
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Yeah, it certainly doesn't put them in a good light. They all want to be pimps, or gangsters. Image is EVERYTHING to them. The price they pay for FUBU or Ecko is ridiculous. I'm not talking about all blacks just the thuggish, ebonic talking ones.
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For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command or faith a dictum. I am my own God. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us. --Charles Bukowski |
08-06-2003, 01:03 AM | #6 (permalink) |
Banned
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As a black person I'll somewhat agree with this, while it's part of our culture, the majority of the black population lives and dies by hip-hop. I listen to "hip-hop" sometimes, but it's not my first choice, sometimes I laugh at it, but I don't take it seriously.
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08-06-2003, 01:06 AM | #7 (permalink) |
More Freedom, Less Bullshit
Location: Tulsa, OK
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I don't know how completely hip-hop and rap have infused themselves into black cluture, but I do know that a majority of them don't act like thugs and pimps. One thing I wonder: why does a KFC have security guard?
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-Erik Stupid people shouldn't breed. |
08-06-2003, 09:09 AM | #9 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: The Kitchen
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It's impossible for me to walk 2 blocks in my neighbourhood without running across a pack of thugged-out kids. I've even been mugged by such groups on 2 occasions, the second time, when I only had 2 or 3 bucks on me almost got me beaten. Needless to say, anytime I now see black kid in hip-hop gear, I get a little worried. Racist? maybe, but I haven't seen much good come out of being a thug. |
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08-06-2003, 09:17 AM | #10 (permalink) |
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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Yawn. Todays angst-core heavy metal is no better. There is lots of positive, or at the very least neutral, rap and hip-hop music out there today. Condemn the individuals, not the whole genre.
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Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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08-06-2003, 09:36 AM | #11 (permalink) |
Riding the Ocean Spray
Location: S.E. PA in U Sofa
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I can't help but think of all the revolutionary thoughts and rhetoric in songs of the 1960's that I grew up with. Plus most of mainstream society then was saying stuff like "cut your hair" "wear clothes like us" "listen to music like us" and they apparently felt truly threatened, like radical youth will destroy society, hell they even shot some kids like at Kent State! I won't even get into Nixon's paranoia but I didn't vote for him. It's the same old shit all over again. Sure, a song said happiness is a warm gun mamma, but I never killed anybody.
I'm 54yo, I still love rock & roll and most good music, plus new styles too, I have two of my radio presets on the two least commercial hiphop stations in the Phila PA area and I like to listen to that stuff a bit each day. I find some of the best examples to be rythmic and poetic in a raw on-the-streets kind of way and like most pop-culture, the rest is trash anyway. |
08-06-2003, 09:45 AM | #12 (permalink) |
Overreactor
Location: South Ca'lina
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This article should be REQUIRED READING!!! It is the absolute truth! All black leaders can talk about is improving the black race, giving back to the community, etc, etc, etc. But who do black kids listen to? 50 Cent, Eminem, Ludacris, and all the other "F*** da Po-lice, I'ma get mine, get out da F***in way muthaf***er!" rappers out there. Is there anyone who can show me that the current black idols are NOT:
1. professional athletes rolling in dough 2. professional rappers rolling in dough, chicks, and cars Nope, nobody can do it. So why should I give a f*** about "giving back to da comoonity" when I don't see any of my heroes doing it? As long as the prevailing, celebrated black attitude is "I'ma cut cho throat fool. Po da Cris" then black people as a whole will NEVER progress.
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"I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request." - Capt. Barbossa |
08-06-2003, 10:11 AM | #13 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: right behind you...
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In a bizarre way this reminds me of a semi-mainstream hate rock period about 10-12 years ago. Some fuckwit racist white trash do ‘hate rock’ and its metal…. Needless to say I made us all metalheads look bad awhile until it was known that, hey, those guys are not us. We do not claim them at all.
I agree with about every single thing the author stated and I have a lot of respect for him. People are so afraid of other people these days that they lie to everyone, including themselves, to stay popular or in fear of real pain. You can’t be quiet. I stray Back to the point at hand. I’ve always seen ‘gangsta’ rap in three ways: 1) Possibly good for mature people who need to vent. 2) reality for some people. Not all of the ghetto life protrayels are fake. Life is life and they should be honest in their medium. 3) The whole ‘bitches and hos’, drug abuse and over the top violence worries me shitless and needs to stop besides rare artists. But the problem is where do you draw a line? I have always back entire free speech. Even the fucking KKK and other hate groups have a right to speak. So do rappers. However, when did we decide kids had the right to do and listen as they please? I know by fact that if you say ‘do not hear this’ the kid will listen. Quickly. But we let them go too far and our state of caring for the kids has dropped unbelievably low. Whatever happened to parents (or parent) teaching kids Reality from Fiction? See, I am a writer. I have violent, violent, violent material and I have honesty in my words. My fiction is for adults, not kids. Some things are for kids, some for adults. I can see some rappers viewpoints, in a sense and I encourage them. But I also encourage them to show that hey… this is my vent. Not my current lifestyle. Oh, and the bling bling bullshit needs to go. Glamour + violence = major trouble. I definitely see this as a major social problem. Now, instead of simply finger pointing, what do we do to clean up this negativity? Any volunteers for kids? Big brother/sister? Become a second father/mother, or a mentor to this tormented children? See. We all see the root. Some people have shit lives and they are in their right to talk of it. However, a lot of kids that know nothing of it for true is converting because they think it gives them the gonads to easily push any and all authority and mentors away. So…. Dr. Dre, your young life fucking sucked. I think I can see your side long ago. Things have changed. The hate and violence is now a bling bling issue. This is horrible for people. This, to me, is the problem. False prophets of music. One thing we could do is play more hip hop of a neutral to positive style all over so they may hear it. Be willing to give the kid honest insight without preaching or being an asshole. Our kids need guidance. Bad. Their parents are not, their society are not, the schools can’t. . . . someone has to. Okay, I’ve typed much an am tired and need to go. Sorry I jumped around so much above. I may post more later. |
08-06-2003, 10:53 AM | #15 (permalink) |
Insane
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Actually, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. His examples are way off. I mean, seriously, everything is way off.
I saw this man on HBO debating with a owner of a rap record label, and he was the most Niles Crane, pompous black man E.V.E.R. The unfortunate side of *his* article is.. 1 - he has little credibility. His "blackness" is deeply countered by his Niles Crane-ness. 2 - His examples are so off black people will disregard him. 3 - Had he done some homework, he could of written a more solid article that would nailed his message, which is true! Black people are being fed horse shit as culture, and they have no one to blame but themselves. |
08-06-2003, 11:07 AM | #16 (permalink) | |
It's all downhill from here
Location: Denver
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Quote:
point.
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Bad Luck City |
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08-06-2003, 11:21 AM | #17 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
Larry Elder There are a number of positive Black Role models outside the sports and music industries. Colin Powell from the Bronx, and Larry Elder, from South Central, are both black men that came from "da hood."
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. Last edited by Cynthetiq; 08-06-2003 at 11:24 AM.. |
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08-06-2003, 11:29 AM | #18 (permalink) |
The GrandDaddy of them all!
Location: Austin, TX
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i agree to an extent on this guy, but not all the way.
i went to a high school with a good size black population (i'll say about 25%) and i would have to agree that rap and the thuggish attitude went hand in hand. even with a black population at that level, there wasnt many students in honors classes. this is strictly my observation, but i think it's the parents and their level of expectation. the kids (black kids) in honors classes were generally wealthier and had parents with good jobs.
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal |
08-06-2003, 11:51 AM | #19 (permalink) |
pow!
Location: NorCal
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I don't buy it.
Punk rock lyrics peppered conversations I had with my friends. We didn't blow up a bank, kill a CEO or do anything that the music talked about (unless it talked about geting drunk, but I can't blame the tunes for that). There is human garbage in all races. They listen to all kinds of music.
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Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free. |
08-06-2003, 12:34 PM | #20 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: San Diego, CA
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It sounds like this is talking about Hip Pop, and/or what is now rap, not the Hip Hop culture. I always thought the Hip Hop culture comprised of the people who were the elitist (but they of course would adimently deny being elitist) of the black rap community. They seperate themselves from the gangster rappers, the sell outs with bitches and hoes in their videos. Hip Hop was the underground, untainted version of all of that. They expressed more of a muslim, black power (more modern, less violent black power of course, but not completly without hatin' of The Man) type black man.
Or you can just ignore me because I'm arguing a point which doesn't really matter, because I'm arguing semantics of Hip Hop when no ones really cares, and lumps it in with rap, Hip Pop, and all.
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( o< --!"Take that bass out you're voice, you talk to me in treble." / / \ \/_/_ -->Mos Def |
08-06-2003, 12:54 PM | #21 (permalink) | |
Banned
Location: In Your Pants!!!!
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08-06-2003, 01:02 PM | #22 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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08-06-2003, 04:14 PM | #23 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: Gastonia NC
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I don't buy it. I've been to university with people who were frighteningly into hiphop. It didn't stop them wanting to do well.
It's easy to blame popular culture. It's a quick and convenient scapegoat. Looking beyond it to the real issues, poverty, violence, racism, lack of motivation, that's the tough part.
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"Then said Joseph to St. Mary, henceforth we will not allow him to go out of the house; for every one who displeases him is killed." Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ, 20:16 |
08-07-2003, 02:09 AM | #24 (permalink) |
Watcher
Location: Ohio
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"Niles Crane-ness"
You mean he was too "white" to listen too? He wasn't "black enough" because he spoke grammatically correct english, and had no posse? He slapped no hoes? What was it exactly? Thanks for making my point. The arguement that this is the same thing as said about rock and roll 30 years ago is completely bunk. Your (general your, no specific person am I responding to)arguement stands because "everyone" said rock and roll would destroy America's fabric, and it didn't. You use the point to say this is the same thing, everyone blames rap, but nothing is really happening. Well, that's not true. I can drive you around Detroit anytime you want and I can point out many, many, too damn many, people that are poor, angy, and aping the hip hop attitude and look for all it's worth. They will have the hip hop clothes, bad attitudes, I won't understand a damn thing they say, and they sure as hell won't like me. I'm the evil white man that's kept them in the ghetto, didn't you know that? Don't you listen to rap?
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I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence: "My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend." |
08-07-2003, 06:39 AM | #25 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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08-07-2003, 08:10 AM | #26 (permalink) |
Liquid Diamonds
Location: Lexington, KY
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Not all hip hop is negative and about money, bitches, and h0s.
There are many hip hop artists (De la Soul, Blackalicious, Tribe to mention a few) who are trying to put out positive messages for African Americans. It seems ignorant to generalize and say that all hip hop diminishes America. Just like any other genre of music, there are artists who work to make a difference in the positive sense. There are certain points made in the article that I agree with, however. The nastier music does tend to sell more than the positive stuff, and he does make a valid point by saying that many African Amercians propagate the notion that they are uncivilized by acting that way (e.g. by having misogynist attitudes and antisocial viewpoints). They are the only ones who have the power to change this. I think this article is a good read. Thanks for sharing it.
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Kim Last edited by Plummie; 08-07-2003 at 08:41 AM.. |
08-07-2003, 11:03 AM | #27 (permalink) |
Tilted
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Colin powell has like 5/8 white or something =P most young black kids probably wouldnt look to him as a role model
Nas is a retard who thinks the traffic light was invented by an african american over 75% of rap sales are to whites-Surprised nobody has talked about its effect on them, there is one, most folks just wont talk about it. Also the difference between hardcore death metal and what not, you dont hear about these stars out killing people or rising demons from hell =P That and compared to rap they get almost no air time. |
08-07-2003, 12:45 PM | #28 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: right behind you...
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my blackness can beat up your blackness.
hmm. let's try to look at the big picture. unless your sense of self and discipline is very high you will eventually come to imitate the music you listen to. a lot of people will say 'uh sure', but I truly believe music is a key to everyone's ultimate persona. for what i read, he didn't put down hip hop. he didn't put down rap. he put down the thug wannabe dipshits that have disregarded all honor, respect, and tolerance. anger music can be good for you. god knows i've got some fucked up shit on my own. i'm a metalhead. but I listen to music after I think (wow) about how I will feel. if it will be negative i force myself to not play it if I am in a bad mood already. kind of like saying "i'm too depressed to drink alcohol". its not that hard to decide. and as for a person being black or white enough? fuck that bullshit. if that's the way you see society you need to shape up a bit. we're all different individuals. deal with it. if i had a young teen with the Chronic i would be uncomfortable, but let it go. I know my relationship with my kid would be high and i would talk to him about this kind of nonesense since day one. respect each other, especially women, some words are not tolerated period until you understand them, drugs aren't the worse thing in the world but don't just try shit.... so on. i see some kids and i think. if they would give up this bullshit fake lifestyle they may be happy instead of looking like a thug. yes. a thug. i said it. most teens these days look thuggish to me. they listen to this shit, this none stop dissing hos and bitches, my dick is bigger than yours, fuck the police (although i mostly agree with the statement), guns are needed... yadayada music is poison. perio. just like a lot of music and all things. there's good, neutral and bad. this shit is bad. its just sad that everyone is so ready to say 'you will not hear this again' which does not work. explain, communicate.... things may get better. but the longer we tolerate thug culture the longer we will have to eventually embrrace it. thank god most goths are too pussyfied to fight normal folk. (fake goths) |
08-07-2003, 12:50 PM | #29 (permalink) | |
Crazy
Location: right behind you...
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one death metal group killed a member of another for being gay. one of the members ate part of the victems brain and the one who went to jail started a death metal band and neo hate in prison. that is an extreeme example. but it happened. most metalheads are easy going guys. it amazes me. but there is still bad there. |
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08-07-2003, 01:23 PM | #30 (permalink) | |
Tilted
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Come on now, when your insulting someones blackness as a staple point of your argument, you have nothing. |
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08-07-2003, 01:41 PM | #31 (permalink) |
Huggles, sir?
Location: Seattle
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"Hip hop" / "gangsta rap" / other "music" peddled by criminals, is detrimental to all of society, not just one race or another. Criminals should be behind bars, not producing records and getting air-time. The fascination with criminals that our society has, leads to copy-cats and general lawlessness, and ultimately will effect our crime rate if it continues.
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seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames |
08-07-2003, 01:42 PM | #32 (permalink) | ||
Tilted
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Save for the green people, I dont know if aliens listen to rap. I just wanted to throw the fact that its white america that buys most of the albums. How come nobody talks about how it effects them? Quote:
How often do you think anything remotely close to this happens? Seriously? Now how often do kids join gangs sell drugs, have unprotected sex wit mad fine bitches and generally just become incredibly disrespectful to others including figures of the law? Not saying its all raps fault, but it sure as hell doesnt help, and I feel pretty sure that it adds to the problem a great deal. Last edited by Trilidon; 08-07-2003 at 01:47 PM.. |
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08-07-2003, 02:40 PM | #33 (permalink) | |
salmon?
Location: Outside Providence
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Quote:
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"Lick my frozen metal ass!" |
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08-07-2003, 02:42 PM | #34 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: MN
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I think "gangsta" rap and similar genres portray a negative stereotype of African-Americans in the media. These are the things white people see and play a large role in their perception of black people. Media in general does this.. look at the movie Brining Down the House it potrays a black woman who was in prison who moves in with a rich white family...what kind of message does this portray to people? Whitie is rich and black people go to prison? I do think there are very positive black rolemodels in hip hop...I just saw a video by Black-eyed Peas and was very impress, I can't remember the name of the song but it even slams Dubya's regime, nothing wrong with that!
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Ban country music, it promotes inbreeding. |
08-07-2003, 04:27 PM | #36 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Why does it seem like the hip hop artists with the least talent and most negative social messages are given the most promotion and funding by major record companies.
Crack and bling bling is a mythology now, anyway; reality is Outkast's 'Ms Jackson'. btw, occurences of the name Combs in that artice:6 occurences of the name Dre:0 Yeah, real close analysis of ALL hip hop there. Last edited by Macheath; 08-07-2003 at 04:34 PM.. |
08-07-2003, 06:23 PM | #38 (permalink) | |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Quote:
Someone pointed out that white people account for 75% of hip-hop sales, so where is the destructive effect on white culture. Well, we aren't sold a version of white thug-life, so white children aren't presented with these negative role-models. However, the more we buy into the hip-hop presentation of black culture, the more we may have misconceptions about the real thing - so there is a destructive element nonetheless. Many people have objected to condemning hip-hop culture as a whole because there are a few groups out there presenting a more constructive message. I agree that this speaks well for the hip-hop genre, but the fact that the nasty stuff consistently outsells is a condemnation of the culture - it is the destructive garbage that is valued. Lastly (for now) people in this thread have said that you can't blame pop culture for everything and that we should examine real causes, such as poverty and violence. It may be true that these conditions have spawned the thug attitude, but this culture is only promoting a continuation of the cycle. Ultimately, pragmatism suggests that even if young adults of the thug culture don't want to be assimilated by mainstream culture they are being harmed by the hip-hop ideal.
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
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08-07-2003, 06:49 PM | #39 (permalink) | |
Crazy
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Quote:
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If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate. |
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