Bush on gay marriage (Link) - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

DEI37 · 07-31-2003, 04:16 AM

He's against it!

I think this is great. He's done the right thing...let's just hope the rest of the Congress and what not have the common sense to follow it as well.

Darkblack · 07-31-2003, 04:41 AM

Yea how horrible. Two people love each other and want to be together forever. SCREW THAT! What are these gays thinking? They think they are equal to you? No way! We should teach them a lesson!

Freedom! We don't need no stinking freedoms!

cheerios · 07-31-2003, 05:14 AM

for the lazy

Quote:

WASHINGTON, July 30 — President Bush said Wednesday that he had government lawyers working on a law that would define marriage as a union between a woman and a man, casting aside calls to legalize gay marriages.
“I BELIEVE MARRIAGE is between a man and a woman, and I believe we ought to codify that one way or the other, and we have lawyers looking at the best way to do that,” the president said in a wide-ranging news conference at the White House Rose Garden.
Bush also urged, however, that America remain a “welcoming country” not polarized on the issue of homosexuality.
“I am mindful that we’re all sinners, and I caution those who may try to take a speck out of the neighbor’s eye when they’ve got a log in their own,” the president said. “I think it is important for our society to respect each individual, to welcome those with good hearts.”
“On the other hand, that does not mean that someone like me needs to compromise on the issue of marriage,” he added.
STRONG REACTION TO REMARKS
Despite his calibrated language, Bush’s statement touched off passionate responses from groups with an interest in the issue.
“There is a real movement for same-sex marriage, and if the president doesn’t intervene, and if he doesn’t take leadership in this area, we could lose marriage in this country the way we know it,” said Franklin Graham, president of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and the son of evangelist Billy Graham. “I think the president is doing the right thing.”
The Rev. Pat Robertson agreed. Both ministers spoke in Orlando, Fla., at the memorial service for Bill Bright, founder of Campus Crusade for Christ.
“I applaud the president’s movement on this,” Robertson said. “I think it’s absolutely important that the American people defend the institution of marriage. Its foundational to our entire society, and I think in order [for] this to be effective, it’s going to have to be a constitutional amendment.”
But gay-rights activists took offense at Bush’s comment that “we’re all sinners,” interpreting the remark as directed at them.
“While we respect President Bush’s religious views, it is unbecoming of the president of the United States to characterize same-sex couples as ‘sinners,’” said Matt Foreman, executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. “It’s also sad that, at a moment in history that cries out for leadership and moral courage, President Bush has instead opted for the divisive, anti-gay politics of the past.”
The Human Rights Campaign, which says it is the nation’s largest gay and lesbian political group, branded Bush’s exploration of a law on gay marriage a “call to codify discrimination.”

SUPREME COURT ACTION
Bush has long opposed gay marriage, but as recently as earlier this month he said a constitutional ban on gay marriage proposed in the House might not be needed despite a Supreme Court decision that some conservatives thought opened the door to legalizing same-sex marriages.
The Supreme Court struck down a Texas law that made homosexual sex a crime, overturning an earlier ruling that said states could punish gays and lesbians for having sex.
Conservative Justice Antonin Scalia fired off a blistering dissent of the ruling.
The “opinion dismantles the structure of constitutional law that has permitted a distinction to be made between heterosexual and homosexual unions, insofar as formal recognition in marriage is concerned,” Scalia wrote. The ruling specifically said that the court was not addressing that issue, but Scalia warned, “Do not believe it.”
Rep. Marilyn Musgrave, R-Colo., is the main sponsor of the proposal offered May 21 to amend the Constitution. It was referred last month to the House Judiciary subcommittee on the Constitution.
To be added to the Constitution, the proposal must be approved by two-thirds of the House and the Senate and ratified by three-fourths of the states.

cheerios · 07-31-2003, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DEI37
He's against it!

I think this is great. He's done the right thing...let's just hope the rest of the Congress and what not have the common sense to follow it as well.

hate to sound stupid, but WHY is it great? becuase he's an arrogant fucktard who can't seem to accept anyone who may be differnt than him? because he's "sinned" too, and is trying to act as the countries concience?

I haven't seen anything that has pissed me off in quite awhile. Bush, you're a stupid asshole!

miked10270 · 07-31-2003, 05:16 AM

Hi Y'All,

In a way I agree with Bush on this, but don't worry, I'm as shocked and horrified by the thought of agrteeing with Bush as the rest of you.

I do believe that "Marriage" IS defined by the bible and thus is only permissible between a man & a woman.

End of discussion on "Marriage".

Having said that, I also believe that a civil & religious "(lifelong) Committment ceremony between same sex couples should be possible (along with legally binding "Seperation" procedures). In effect "Marriage & Divorce" without the implied procreation issue. It isn't actually marriage (or divorce), but it should be legally recognised for the same purposes (pensions, taxes, insurance, inheritance) that marriage & divorce are.

What is sought by the homosexual comunity is a way of declaring their committment to one another, one which is recognised in law. That does NOT have to be (& indeed could not be) "Marriage". That is not to say it cannot exist.

Mike.

cheerios · 07-31-2003, 05:27 AM

see, what confuses me, is this: marriage is NOT religious! I mean, athiests get married, buddhists get married, satanists get married. The word doesn't really hold any religous meaning. so why bother to seperate out a differnt term for teh EXACT SAME THING, (at least if I understand miked's point), just because it's gonna make the stiffnecked religious zealots uncomfy???

miked10270 · 07-31-2003, 06:33 AM

Hi Cheerios,

I think that Bush is defining marriage as the union of 2 people for procreation and to provide a stable environment to raise the resultant children. All the "forsaking all others", & " 'til death do you part" stuff is effectively to that end.

Athiest, Buddhist & satanic Hetrosexual marriages still fulfil those basic requirements (although in the case of the satanic ones the stable environment bit may be a little loose.

Like it or not, America IS a largely christian country, by which I mean that the dominant religion is christianity, albeit with a significant tolerance of other personal & religious views. Bush's personal beliefs & views tend toward the traditional WASP America and if he wants to be re-elected he KNOWS that he'd be better following his own beliefs and pandering to the "Greater Bible-Belt" than the L/G Community (who probably all vote Democrat anyway).

I am aware that formal marriage, as opposed to co-habiting, carries VERY significant legal implications, particularly with regard to inheritance & "spousal" benefits. At present, all the legal implications of formal marriage are effectively denied to homosexual relationships regardless of the relationship's duration. This is a REAL injustice which is the issue that must be addressed.

One solution would be to allow homosexuals to marry (but it IS resisted strongly by church groups).

Another solution is a Legally Binding "committment ceremony which avoids the use of the word "Marriage". As such, it becomes a purely legislative matter, NOT a quasi-religious one.

In effect, any person qualifiedto perform a "Marriage" ceremony would also be permitted IF THEY WISHED & AGREED to perform a committment ceremony.

Actually, if this did come to pass, I wonder how long "Marriage" would last before being largely replaced (even in the hetrosexual community with "Committment".

Mike.

Nefir · 07-31-2003, 06:36 AM

Meh, the concept of "marriage" can be considered religious by Bush, if he likes it that way, but it makes no difference either way - if its a religious concept, the separation of church and state should prevent any government benefits from reaching married couples. Otherwise it would mean that the government is giving bonuses to people of their own religion!

Since those who get married indeed get tangible benefits, it is a contradiction of the religious nature of marriage, and Bush has no right to deny some couples what other couples get for free. I don't care if they call it marriage or not, but a man and a woman, two men, or two women are still couples by definition.

Damn, we need some young people in Congress...

tenchi069 · 07-31-2003, 07:18 AM

I'm a straight male, my fiance is a straight female. We will be getting married one of these days. It sickens me that people stuck in the dark ages and able to hold office. I don't see how 2 guys or 2 girls being married is going to make MY marriage any less. Explaining gay vs straight to my future children will be no different than explaining why one family goes to church, one family goes to temple, one family goes to mosque, one family goes to nature. They are differences, plain and simple. Too many homophobes think that gay people will somehow ruin their personal values. If just the fact that someone can be gay somehow diminish your convictions, maybe your convictions arent that strong to begin with.

G_Whiz · 07-31-2003, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by miked10270

One solution would be to allow homosexuals to marry (but it IS resisted strongly by church groups).

Another solution is a Legally Binding "committment ceremony which avoids the use of the word "Marriage". As such, it becomes a purely legislative matter, NOT a quasi-religious one.

In effect, any person qualifiedto perform a "Marriage" ceremony would also be permitted IF THEY WISHED & AGREED to perform a committment ceremony.

Actually, if this did come to pass, I wonder how long "Marriage" would last before being largely replaced (even in the hetrosexual community with "Committment".

Mike.

Good luck with this concept. The last time that I suggested that we drop the word marriage for the legal union, I was pilloried for pandering to the religious groups. Mind you that was in a thread on TFP.

I agree with your concept totally. The word "marriage" has a certain power within most religions. In the interest of separation of church and state, let's give that word to the religious folk and use a different legal term that encompasses the legal commitment made by 2 individuals (of course, now I'll be challenged by the polygamists in the group.

).

MSD · 07-31-2003, 08:15 AM

If we're on this track back to the dark ages, can we have some good old-fashioned witch-burnings, too?

TIO · 07-31-2003, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by George Bush
“I am mindful that we’re all sinners, and I caution those who may try to take a speck out of the neighbor’s eye when they’ve got a log in their own,” the president said. “I think it is important for our society to respect each individual, to welcome those with good hearts.”

So homosexuals are filthy sinners, but we should respect their wishes to be filthy sinners?

There have been a lot of good points made in this thread, so I won't bother to make them again, save to say that I am deeply offended by DEI37's comments at the start of this thread. I wonder how those attitudes can continue in the nineties. I would have thought we could have wised up by now.

For the record, I support gay marriage, and think that the idea of a "commitment ceremony" is patronising and unnecessary. Sure, marriage is important to many religions, many of which don't support homosexuality. But it's also significant to a lot of us atheists who do support homosexuality, too. And to say that the USA is primarisy Christian is no basis for the persecution of a particular group which some of the Christians may not like. Should we also outlaw laziness and staying home on Sunday mornings?

Drider_it · 07-31-2003, 08:36 AM

ahh but he may sin we all do but we dont continue to live in sin. The object is you realize you sin then ask forgivness for that sin.. if you are truely repentave you wont keep doing the same sin over and over..

also.. this country was founded on God and christanity.. look it up its true.. if you look in a christian bible you'll see in the old testiment that there was this place called sodom and gamoria.. of course its gone now .. for a long time due to the sin and such that dwelded in it.. but hey I'm a christian and i go by the Bible 100%.

and what you must realize.. as a christian.. I love the person but hate the sin. Being gay dosent affect me.. when you push your views on me and my family i take offense. Our President is only going by what was laid down by the men and such that created this nation.

I mean you got a school in NY that is a Gay school.. wtf is up with that.. thise kids are around 17 and younger.. that is wrong.. nothing you can say can change that.. its a. the kid is presured by parents to be gay.. or b. thinks they are..

there is no way you can tell me that being gay is a genetic thing. No there is no gay gene.. Being gay goes against nature.. even if there was no God, there is nature.. I have yet to see gay animals and insects.. and such. There isnt. And no I'm not bashing anyones natural sway towards life.. Im just stateing facts..

But as a Cristian I must stand with Bush. And if you'll look at the Gay thing it only got really popular from Celebs and such.

NOTE: Not many will agree with me.. but hey as a member here I'm entitled to my opinion.. I didnt flame any one.. just putting in my .02

also.. you want "so called" scriptures where it says being gay is wrong.. let me know Ill PM them to ya

Bill O'Rights · 07-31-2003, 08:38 AM

I know who I am, what I am and what I believe. I do not see how two men or two women, that want to commit themselves to each other, affects my life in the least little bit. It does not diminish anything in my own life. Since it has no bearing on my life, positive or negative, then where is the harm?

Plus..Pat Robertson's against it...therefore, by default, I'm for it.
Down with religious fundamentalism.

Bill O'Rights · 07-31-2003, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
If we're on this track back to the dark ages, can we have some good old-fashioned witch-burnings, too?

Umm....No. I have some very good friends who just so happen to be witches.

And...yes, I know that you were being facetious.

Bill O'Rights · 07-31-2003, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Drider_it
...this country was founded on God and christanity.. look it up its true... .

Uh...no, I don't believe that it was...look it up.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drider_it
...I'm a christian and i go by the Bible 100%.

Is this really true?

Halx · 07-31-2003, 08:56 AM

oh no.. not another gay marriage debate.

I'm not impressed by all this religious crap flowing into the country's rule books. Religion is outdated in this age of technology and sexual advancement. Believe in what you like to help you live a better, more meaningful life, but DONT impress your will upon others! While I've never really had much of an opinion on Bush, he's becoming just as despicable as Ashcroft.

Drider_it · 07-31-2003, 09:03 AM

Yeah .. I am a christian.. I am after all human and of the flesh and flawed.. and yes i do come short of perfection by a billion miles.. but i try..

we left england due to religious strife.. we wanted to live under our belief in god with out a iron chain around us..

here is a message for a nun.. and old nun but a nun nonetheless

I think everyone on this planet needs to read this. This was sent by a 78-year-old former nun. The thoughts are pure and we all understand the point. She writes:

There are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some native Americans, need to understand. First of all, it is not our responsibility to continually try not to offend you in any way. This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.

As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language, and our own lifestyle. This culture, called the "American Way" has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

Our forefathers fought, bled, and died at places such as Bunker Hill, Antietam, San Juan, Iwo Jima, Normandy, Korea, Vietnam. We speak English, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn our language!

"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some off the wall, Christian, Right Wing, political slogan - it is our national motto. It is engraved in stone in the House of Representatives in our Capitol and it is printed on our currency. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation and this is clearly documented throughout our history. If it is appropriate for our motto to be inscribed in the halls of our highest level of Government, then it is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools.

God is in our pledge, our National Anthem, nearly every patriotic song, and in our founding documents. We honor His birth, death, and resurrection as holidays, and we turn to Him in prayer in times of crisis. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture and we are proud to have Him.

We are proud of our heritage and those who have so honorably defended our freedoms. We celebrate Independence Day, Memorial Day, Veterans Day, and Flag Day. We have parades, picnics, and barbecues where we proudly wave our flag.

As an American, I have the right to wave my flag, sing my national anthem, quote my national motto, and cite my pledge whenever and wherever I choose. If the Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

The American culture is our way of life, our heritage, and we are proud of it. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. Like it or not, this is our country, our land, and our lifestyle.

Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion about our government, culture, or society, and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom: THE RIGHT TO LEAVE!

Another thing: To those who do complain about the usage of words like 'God' and 'American' and speaking the language of our great nation, try going to another country and speak against what you don't like. You will more than likely end up jailed or even killed.

In America, you take your right to complain for granted. The more patriotism that is removed from where our children are taught, the less our children will learn about what it is to be an American and our nation's spirit will slowly be killed. Keep patriotism alive!

furthermore

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/...istory/ch2.htm

“We think it is incumbent upon this people to humble themselves before God on account of their sins...[and] also to implore the Devine Blessing upon us, that by the assistance of His grace, we may be enabled to reform whatever is amiss among us, that so God may be pleased to continue to us the blessings we enjoy.”
-- John Hancock, (the first) signer of the Declaration of Independence

but what you are missing.. yeah sure it says to keep religious seperate.. but every man that got the ball rolling was a christian.. they werent gay, satanists.. atheists.. or such.. they were christians.. with out them we wouldnt be here now..

and with the advent of the internet.. i dont hold sway to any internet site offering "truths about history" anyone can puts words together and make them seem fact.. Ill only post what i know if fact.. not opionions.. unless i state them as my opinion..

and I would hope in the future you would refraim from goading me into an argument that I will avoid..

the afore mentioned last line you posted.. "is this really true?"

I would expect better.. as I would show you.

lurkette · 07-31-2003, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Drider_it
...

Oh, blah blah blah.

You go 100% by the bible, eh? Check out this thread:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=19523

I'm sick to death of this debate. Why are we even discussing this? If you object to homosexuality on religious grounds, too bad. This is NOT a Christian country, it's a secular republic with a lot of Christians in it. And a lot of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, Wiccans, atheists and Jedis. (No wait, that's Australia) If you want a theocracy, move to Iran. If you're afraid of homosexuals or think it's "unnatural", too bad. Last I checked being afraid of someone is not grounds for revoking their rights, and "unnatural" is a loaded term that's subject to interpretation. And I fail to see what the history of the country has to do with its current civil laws. We have, in the past, practiced slavery and child labor, denied women and blacks the right to vote and to inherit/own property, etc. Times change. Morals change. Laws should change accordingly. Deal with it. Most of the founding fathers were deists anyhow, except for the few out-and-out Christians you trot out to bolster your weak arguments.

Marriage is a religious insitution. If you want to get married, talk to your clergy.

It also happens to be a civil institution with legal rights and obligations. I think conflating "marriage" with "civil union" as the U.S. currently does is at the root of a lot of this. I think we ought to dissociate marriage, the religious institution, from marriage, the civil institution by calling them two different things. Civil union, commitment, whatever. Give everyone who wants to be in a civil union, gay, straight, whatever, the same rights. If you want a religious ceremony for your own beliefs, then talk to your clergy.

What fricking century are we living in, anyhow. Sheesh.

nothingx · 07-31-2003, 09:41 AM

Quote:

We speak English, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn our language!

Yeah, um... that's complete bullshit. Americans come in all shapes and colors and, like it or not, its our diversity that makes us so unique. I'm sure that 78 year old woman would then go on to say that we eat hamburgers and apple pies, not spaghetti or general tso's chicken. Think about your heratage. No american, besides maybe pure natives, can say their ancestors have lived here for more than a few hundered years. Face it, we're all from somewhere else, so lets stop this bullshit idea that there is some 'ideal american' that speaks only english and eats apple pies. By keeping this ideal alive, any immigrants into this country are stripped of their cultural heratage and force to conform to this bogus notion. Point in case: I once met an asain student that recently transfered into my school. I introduced myself to him and asked him his name. In very broken english he told me his name was Kevin. It saddens me that this poor kid felt he had to change his name to something americanized for me to relate to him. This is america damnit! Land of the free! You don't have to change your name or your language to come here. If you want me to understand you, yeah, you might need to use english... but I'm not above learning your language if you're willing to teach me. Maybe I'm just weird like that... you know, willing to learn as much as I can about other people and all.

tinfoil · 07-31-2003, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by miked10270
[B]I think that Bush is defining marriage as the union of 2 people for procreation and to provide a stable environment to raise the resultant children.

I am quite certain that a same-sex marriage is perfectly capable of providing a stable environment, though it is my thought you didn't mean to infer otherwise.

I think same-sex marriage is fine, I see no reason in denying the joys of marriage to gay couples. Many of the people I have spoken with who DO have a problem with it (including my mother) would rather it not be called a marriage but a union of some sort. She's rather religious and believes that marriage is a religious thing. I can understand that point, but it's rather nit-picky IMHO.

Marriage is not the property of the Christian religion. Every religion uses it, even religions Christianity doesn't much care for. Should they, then, not be allowed to get married?

Phaenx · 07-31-2003, 11:22 AM

I myself don't care if gays get married. But I fail to see how denying them use of the word "marriage" is a problem, in fact I think if you don't deny use then you're just going to raise a stink (as we've seen), and at the end of the day fighting for use of a word isn't worth the trouble.

Bill O'Rights · 07-31-2003, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Drider_it
Yeah .. I am a christian..

I did not mean to question whether you were christian or not...I was merely questioning whether or not you follow the bible 100%. Sorry that I wasn't more clear on that point.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drider_it
we left england due to religious strife.. we wanted to live under our belief in god with out a iron chain around us..

Actually, my ancestors fled Switzerland, and then Germany, for political reasons. (I come from a long line of "button pushers") They had nothing at all to do with England, and spoke no English until the third generation in this country. This was about 1721.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drider_it
and old nun but a nun nonetheless

I know that you didn't intend it to be so...but this is just funny, funny stuff. Ignore me, I have an odd sense of humor.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drider_it
This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.

Excuse me here, but we most certainly are a multi-cultural community. The best of us are descended from those thrown out of every decent country on the planet. If that's not multicultural, then what is?

Quote:

Originally posted by Drider_it
As Americans, we have our own culture,No, we don't our own society, Well, this part's true. I'll accept that.our own language, What language would that be? English? Oh, I see...and our own lifestyle. Isn't "Lifestyle what started all this in the first place?This culture, called the "American Way" has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

Our forefathers fought, bled, and died at places such as Bunker Hill, Antietam, San Juan, Iwo Jima, Normandy, Korea, Vietnam. We speak English, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn our language!

O.K. My "forefathers" fought and bled for a lot of different things, but one of them was not so that you can demand that we all speak the same language.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drider_it
"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some off the wall, Christian, Right Wing, political slogan - it is our national motto. It is engraved in stone in the House of Representatives in our Capitol and it is printed on our currency. We adopted this motto because and this is clearly documented throughout our history. If it is appropriate for our motto to be inscribed in the halls of our highest level of Government, then it is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools.

Show me reference to this "motto" prior to 1950. Nnd where does "Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation..."come from? If it is so well documented, then show me.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drider_it
God is in our pledge, yeah, again, as of the 1950'sour National Anthem, Yeah, there's a reference to your "motto" in the fouth stanza, I believe. nearly every patriotic song, and in our founding documents. Again...where? We honor His birth, death, and resurrection as holidays, and we turn to Him in prayer in times of crisis. No...you, and some others, do. "We" implies all. Do not make that assumption. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, God doesn't offendme...fundamentalist christians do.because God is part of our culture and we are proud to have Him. There's that "our" and "we" again. Do not presume to speak for all of us..[/B]

Quote:

Originally posted by Drider_it
We are proud of our heritage and those who have so honorably defended our freedoms. We celebrate Independence Day, Memorial Day, Veterans Day, and Flag Day. We have parades, picnics, and barbecues where we proudly wave our flag.

Agreed. But, what does this have to do with christianity?

Quote:

Originally posted by Drider_it
As an American, I have the right to wave my flag, sing my national anthem, quote my national motto, and cite my pledge whenever and wherever I choose. If the Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

You are confusing patriotism with christianity here. They are not inclusive.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drider_it
The American culture is our way of life, our heritage, and we are proud of it. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, Yes we do. We always strive to make changes. Why else do you think that there are so many ammendments to the Constitution? and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. Like it or not, this is our country, our land, and our lifestyle.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drider_it
In America, you take your right to complain for granted. The more patriotism that is removed from where our children are taught, the less our children will learn about what it is to be an American and our nation's spirit will slowly be killed. Keep patriotism alive!

I emphatically agree!! What does this have to do with christianity again? I love my country. Never, ever question that.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drider_it
“We think it is incumbent upon this people to humble themselves before God on account of their sins...[and] also to implore the Devine Blessing upon us, that by the assistance of His grace, we may be enabled to reform whatever is amiss among us, that so God may be pleased to continue to us the blessings we enjoy.”
-- John Hancock, (the first) signer of the Declaration of Independence

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."
--Thomas Jefferson,author of The Declaration of Independence, Dec. 6, 1813.

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
--Thomas Jefferson, author of The Declaration of Independence,
February 10, 1814

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."
--Thomas Jefferson, author of The Declaration of Independence, March 17, 1814

Darkblack · 07-31-2003, 12:15 PM

*Clap*

Nice post Bill O'Rights.

sixate · 07-31-2003, 12:37 PM

I had a giant post to a response in this thread, but I decided to keep my big fucking mouth shut.

It's just not worth it. I hate religion and all discussions about it. The hypocrisy makes me want to vomit. I just can't keep mt temper at a tame level so I'm outa this one.

bobw · 07-31-2003, 03:25 PM

Bush is wrong on this. He is way behind the times and so is everyone who agrees with him. In a hundred years or so, this will be the equivilent of discrimination by race or sex...remember, not so long ago blacks were slaves and women couldn't vote, and people thought that was the way things should be !!!!!

I think our president is doing a little mixing of church and state...

docbungle · 07-31-2003, 04:19 PM

For anyone who calls themselves a christian to have a problem with gay marriage is hipocracy.

Who are you to judge? You are not God, so you cannot judge. You were not put here to judge. Yet you have the audacity to judge.

I am no better than someone just because they are gay. Why?
Because I believe in God, but in doing so understand that me believing in Him does not mean He actually exsists. And if he does, and being gay is some huuuuge sin, then I'm still no better.

Why? Because I've done so much bad shit that my sexual orientation is the last thing I should be worried about. And if you think hard about it, the same goes for you.

Viewing porn is morally questionable, but Bush doesn't tell me I can't do that. He tells me that once I'm old enough, I can make my own decisions. Well, the same thing should apply to gay marriages: once you're old enough, you can marry whoever the hell you want.

Jeff · 07-31-2003, 05:51 PM

I don't see a big deal if gays are allowed to marry. But I also don't see a big deal if they're not allowed to marry. I just say leave the laws the way they are. They cause no problems.

Ralvek · 07-31-2003, 05:54 PM

I love conservatives...they are all about government staying out of people's lives...except when it comes to regulating what they thing a person's morals should be. What business is it for an old white fart what someone does in the privacy of his/her own bedroom? We can all be armed to the teeth, but heaven forbid if two men/women want to get married...now I bet most of the morons just love to jerk off in the privacy of their own homes to two fat chicks licking ass...Let's just go back to the old days of women cleaning and cooking, and as African-Americans being our mules to do our bidding!

Phaenx · 07-31-2003, 06:08 PM

I think that only applies to the religious right, probably not even all of them. Blanket statements are treacherous, but it is warm under here, thanks.

The_Dude · 07-31-2003, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff
I don't see a big deal if gays are allowed to marry. But I also don't see a big deal if they're not allowed to marry. I just say leave the laws the way they are. They cause no problems.

lol, how about the same for women's suffrage and black suffrage?

i consider this to the same level as those other movements. all about equal rights regardless of your sex/race/sexual orientation.

and why am i NOT surprised that bush would say/do something like this. after all, he only quotes from the bible on every other speech!

what's going on in vermont is only a start, and i sure hope it catches fire and spreads around.

as for the word marriage having a religious tint to it, it may in your eyes. but that doesnt mean you are right or u should impose it on others cuz of your belief.

TaLoN · 07-31-2003, 07:43 PM

im not religious at all. if you aren't contributing to the evolution of the human race, then i don't like you

Zargix · 07-31-2003, 07:55 PM

The only good i can see coming from this is a big part of the country getting pissed at bush and not re-electing him

redravin40 · 07-31-2003, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TaLoN
I'm not religious at all. if you aren't contributing to the evolution of the human race, then i don't like you

So you don't like...
Couples who choose not to have children, maybe because they can't afford them?
Couples who can't have children, for a myriad of medical reasons?
Or couples who adopt other peoples children?

This world turns on a whole lot more then evolution.

Treating people in a decent and honorable fashion is the basis for a polite society.

hobo · 07-31-2003, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cheerios
hate to sound stupid, but WHY is it great? becuase he's an arrogant fucktard who can't seem to accept anyone who may be differnt than him? because he's "sinned" too, and is trying to act as the countries concience?

I haven't seen anything that has pissed me off in quite awhile. Bush, you're a stupid asshole!

I have to agree with you. Homosexuals seem like pretty normal people to me, so if they are in love, let them get married. There are already many gay couples out there, might as well let them get married. He believes that homosexuality is wrong and that premarital sex is wrong. He can't stop people from being gay but he can let them get married so they stop having premarital sex and have postmarital sex.

clavus · 07-31-2003, 09:40 PM

I say LET THE HOMOSEXUALS MARRY! They need to get fucked over on taxes just like the straight, 2-income folks.

Seriously, if two people want to promise to love, honor and cherish one another until death parts them, its none of my business. If god has a problem with that, I'm sure She will take care of it.

The_Dude · 07-31-2003, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by clavus
I'm sure She will take care of it.

gave me a chuckle

jibs · 07-31-2003, 11:00 PM

I don't see what the big deal is with same sex marriages. If you like the cock.. you like the cock. Big deal.

clavus · 07-31-2003, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
gave me a chuckle

I wondered if anyone would notice.

obediah · 07-31-2003, 11:14 PM

ugh.

Nothing witty to say about this.

Just ugh.

No suprises.

Just ugh.

07-31-2003, 04:16 AM	#1 (permalink)
DEI37 Go faster! Location: Wisconsin	Bush on gay marriage (Link) He's against it! I think this is great. He's done the right thing...let's just hope the rest of the Congress and what not have the common sense to follow it as well. __________________ Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

07-31-2003, 06:36 AM	#8 (permalink)
Nefir Junkie Location: Louisville, KY	Meh, the concept of "marriage" can be considered religious by Bush, if he likes it that way, but it makes no difference either way - if its a religious concept, the separation of church and state should prevent any government benefits from reaching married couples. Otherwise it would mean that the government is giving bonuses to people of their own religion! Since those who get married indeed get tangible benefits, it is a contradiction of the religious nature of marriage, and Bush has no right to deny some couples what other couples get for free. I don't care if they call it marriage or not, but a man and a woman, two men, or two women are still couples by definition. Damn, we need some young people in Congress... __________________ You do not use a Macintosh, instead you use a Tandy Kompressor break your glowstick, Kompressor eat your candy Kompressor open jaws, Kompressor release ants Kompressor watch you scream, Because Kompressor does not dance Last edited by Nefir; 07-31-2003 at 06:38 AM..

07-31-2003, 08:36 AM	#13 (permalink)
Drider_it Junkie Location: Louisiana	ahh but he may sin we all do but we dont continue to live in sin. The object is you realize you sin then ask forgivness for that sin.. if you are truely repentave you wont keep doing the same sin over and over.. also.. this country was founded on God and christanity.. look it up its true.. if you look in a christian bible you'll see in the old testiment that there was this place called sodom and gamoria.. of course its gone now .. for a long time due to the sin and such that dwelded in it.. but hey I'm a christian and i go by the Bible 100%. and what you must realize.. as a christian.. I love the person but hate the sin. Being gay dosent affect me.. when you push your views on me and my family i take offense. Our President is only going by what was laid down by the men and such that created this nation. I mean you got a school in NY that is a Gay school.. wtf is up with that.. thise kids are around 17 and younger.. that is wrong.. nothing you can say can change that.. its a. the kid is presured by parents to be gay.. or b. thinks they are.. there is no way you can tell me that being gay is a genetic thing. No there is no gay gene.. Being gay goes against nature.. even if there was no God, there is nature.. I have yet to see gay animals and insects.. and such. There isnt. And no I'm not bashing anyones natural sway towards life.. Im just stateing facts.. But as a Cristian I must stand with Bush. And if you'll look at the Gay thing it only got really popular from Celebs and such. NOTE: Not many will agree with me.. but hey as a member here I'm entitled to my opinion.. I didnt flame any one.. just putting in my .02 also.. you want "so called" scriptures where it says being gay is wrong.. let me know Ill PM them to ya __________________ It means only one thing, and everything: Cut. Once committed to fight, Cut. Everything else is secondary. Cut. That is your duty, your purpose, your hunger. There is no rule more important, no commitment that overrides that one. Cut. The lines are a portrayal of the dance. Cut from the void, not from bewilderment. Cut the enemy as quickly and directly as possible. Cut with certainty. Cut decisively, resoultely. Cut into his strength. Flow through the gaps in his guard. Cut him. Cut him down utterly. Don't allow him a breath. Crush him. Cut him without mercy to the depth of his spirit. It is the balance to life: death. It is the dance with death. It is the law a war wizard lives by, or he dies.

07-31-2003, 08:38 AM	#14 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	I know who I am, what I am and what I believe. I do not see how two men or two women, that want to commit themselves to each other, affects my life in the least little bit. It does not diminish anything in my own life. Since it has no bearing on my life, positive or negative, then where is the harm? Plus..Pat Robertson's against it...therefore, by default, I'm for it. Down with religious fundamentalism. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

07-31-2003, 08:56 AM	#17 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	oh no.. not another gay marriage debate. I'm not impressed by all this religious crap flowing into the country's rule books. Religion is outdated in this age of technology and sexual advancement. Believe in what you like to help you live a better, more meaningful life, but DONT impress your will upon others! While I've never really had much of an opinion on Bush, he's becoming just as despicable as Ashcroft. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

07-31-2003, 04:41 AM	#2 (permalink)
Darkblack Banned Location: Pennsytuckia	Yea how horrible. Two people love each other and want to be together forever. SCREW THAT! What are these gays thinking? They think they are equal to you? No way! We should teach them a lesson! Freedom! We don't need no stinking freedoms!

07-31-2003, 05:16 AM	#5 (permalink)
miked10270 Banned Location: Scotland	Hi Y'All, In a way I agree with Bush on this, but don't worry, I'm as shocked and horrified by the thought of agrteeing with Bush as the rest of you. I do believe that "Marriage" IS defined by the bible and thus is only permissible between a man & a woman. End of discussion on "Marriage". Having said that, I also believe that a civil & religious "(lifelong) Committment ceremony between same sex couples should be possible (along with legally binding "Seperation" procedures). In effect "Marriage & Divorce" without the implied procreation issue. It isn't actually marriage (or divorce), but it should be legally recognised for the same purposes (pensions, taxes, insurance, inheritance) that marriage & divorce are. What is sought by the homosexual comunity is a way of declaring their committment to one another, one which is recognised in law. That does NOT have to be (& indeed could not be) "Marriage". That is not to say it cannot exist. Mike.

07-31-2003, 05:27 AM	#6 (permalink)
cheerios Banned Location: 'bout 2 feet from my iMac	see, what confuses me, is this: marriage is NOT religious! I mean, athiests get married, buddhists get married, satanists get married. The word doesn't really hold any religous meaning. so why bother to seperate out a differnt term for teh EXACT SAME THING, (at least if I understand miked's point), just because it's gonna make the stiffnecked religious zealots uncomfy???

07-31-2003, 06:33 AM	#7 (permalink)
miked10270 Banned Location: Scotland	Hi Cheerios, I think that Bush is defining marriage as the union of 2 people for procreation and to provide a stable environment to raise the resultant children. All the "forsaking all others", & " 'til death do you part" stuff is effectively to that end. Athiest, Buddhist & satanic *Hetrosexual* marriages still fulfil those basic requirements (although in the case of the satanic ones the stable environment bit may be a little loose. Like it or not, America IS a largely christian country, by which I mean that the dominant religion is christianity, albeit with a significant tolerance of other personal & religious views. Bush's personal beliefs & views tend toward the traditional WASP America and if he wants to be re-elected he KNOWS that he'd be better following his own beliefs and pandering to the "Greater Bible-Belt" than the L/G Community (who probably all vote Democrat anyway). I am aware that formal marriage, as opposed to co-habiting, carries VERY significant legal implications, particularly with regard to inheritance & "spousal" benefits. At present, all the legal implications of formal marriage are effectively denied to homosexual relationships regardless of the relationship's duration. This is a REAL injustice which is the issue that must be addressed. One solution would be to allow homosexuals to marry (but it IS resisted strongly by church groups). Another solution is a Legally Binding "committment ceremony which avoids the use of the word "Marriage". As such, it becomes a purely legislative matter, *NOT* a quasi-religious one. In effect, any person qualifiedto perform a "Marriage" ceremony would also be permitted IF THEY WISHED & AGREED to perform a committment ceremony. Actually, if this did come to pass, I wonder how long "Marriage" would last before being largely replaced (even in the hetrosexual community with "Committment". Mike.

07-31-2003, 07:18 AM	#9 (permalink)
tenchi069 Lost Location: One step closer to the padded cell...	I'm a straight male, my fiance is a straight female. We will be getting married one of these days. It sickens me that people stuck in the dark ages and able to hold office. I don't see how 2 guys or 2 girls being married is going to make MY marriage any less. Explaining gay vs straight to my future children will be no different than explaining why one family goes to church, one family goes to temple, one family goes to mosque, one family goes to nature. They are differences, plain and simple. Too many homophobes think that gay people will somehow ruin their personal values. If just the fact that someone can be gay somehow diminish your convictions, maybe your convictions arent that strong to begin with.

07-31-2003, 08:15 AM	#11 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	If we're on this track back to the dark ages, can we have some good old-fashioned witch-burnings, too?

07-31-2003, 09:03 AM	#18 (permalink)
Drider_it Junkie Location: Louisiana	Yeah .. I am a christian.. I am after all human and of the flesh and flawed.. and yes i do come short of perfection by a billion miles.. but i try.. we left england due to religious strife.. we wanted to live under our belief in god with out a iron chain around us.. here is a message for a nun.. and old nun but a nun nonetheless I think everyone on this planet needs to read this. This was sent by a 78-year-old former nun. The thoughts are pure and we all understand the point. She writes: There are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some native Americans, need to understand. First of all, it is not our responsibility to continually try not to offend you in any way. This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language, and our own lifestyle. This culture, called the "American Way" has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. Our forefathers fought, bled, and died at places such as Bunker Hill, Antietam, San Juan, Iwo Jima, Normandy, Korea, Vietnam. We speak English, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn our language! "In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some off the wall, Christian, Right Wing, political slogan - it is our national motto. It is engraved in stone in the House of Representatives in our Capitol and it is printed on our currency. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation and this is clearly documented throughout our history. If it is appropriate for our motto to be inscribed in the halls of our highest level of Government, then it is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. God is in our pledge, our National Anthem, nearly every patriotic song, and in our founding documents. We honor His birth, death, and resurrection as holidays, and we turn to Him in prayer in times of crisis. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture and we are proud to have Him. We are proud of our heritage and those who have so honorably defended our freedoms. We celebrate Independence Day, Memorial Day, Veterans Day, and Flag Day. We have parades, picnics, and barbecues where we proudly wave our flag. As an American, I have the right to wave my flag, sing my national anthem, quote my national motto, and cite my pledge whenever and wherever I choose. If the Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. The American culture is our way of life, our heritage, and we are proud of it. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. Like it or not, this is our country, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion about our government, culture, or society, and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom: THE RIGHT TO LEAVE! Another thing: To those who do complain about the usage of words like 'God' and 'American' and speaking the language of our great nation, try going to another country and speak against what you don't like. You will more than likely end up jailed or even killed. In America, you take your right to complain for granted. The more patriotism that is removed from where our children are taught, the less our children will learn about what it is to be an American and our nation's spirit will slowly be killed. Keep patriotism alive! furthermore http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/...istory/ch2.htm “We think it is incumbent upon this people to humble themselves before God on account of their sins...[and] also to implore the Devine Blessing upon us, that by the assistance of His grace, we may be enabled to reform whatever is amiss among us, that so God may be pleased to continue to us the blessings we enjoy.” -- John Hancock, (the first) signer of the Declaration of Independence but what you are missing.. yeah sure it says to keep religious seperate.. but every man that got the ball rolling was a christian.. they werent gay, satanists.. atheists.. or such.. they were christians.. with out them we wouldnt be here now.. and with the advent of the internet.. i dont hold sway to any internet site offering "truths about history" anyone can puts words together and make them seem fact.. Ill only post what i know if fact.. not opionions.. unless i state them as my opinion.. and I would hope in the future you would refraim from goading me into an argument that I will avoid.. the afore mentioned last line you posted.. "is this really true?" I would expect better.. as I would show you. __________________ It means only one thing, and everything: Cut. Once committed to fight, Cut. Everything else is secondary. Cut. That is your duty, your purpose, your hunger. There is no rule more important, no commitment that overrides that one. Cut. The lines are a portrayal of the dance. Cut from the void, not from bewilderment. Cut the enemy as quickly and directly as possible. Cut with certainty. Cut decisively, resoultely. Cut into his strength. Flow through the gaps in his guard. Cut him. Cut him down utterly. Don't allow him a breath. Crush him. Cut him without mercy to the depth of his spirit. It is the balance to life: death. It is the dance with death. It is the law a war wizard lives by, or he dies.

07-31-2003, 11:22 AM	#22 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	I myself don't care if gays get married. But I fail to see how denying them use of the word "marriage" is a problem, in fact I think if you don't deny use then you're just going to raise a stink (as we've seen), and at the end of the day fighting for use of a word isn't worth the trouble. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

07-31-2003, 12:15 PM	#24 (permalink)
Darkblack Banned Location: Pennsytuckia	Clap Nice post Bill O'Rights.

07-31-2003, 12:37 PM	#25 (permalink)
sixate Registered User Location: Somewhere in Ohio	I had a giant post to a response in this thread, but I decided to keep my big fucking mouth shut. It's just not worth it. I hate religion and all discussions about it. The hypocrisy makes me want to vomit. I just can't keep mt temper at a tame level so I'm outa this one.

07-31-2003, 03:25 PM	#26 (permalink)
bobw Psycho Location: somewhere....	Bush is wrong on this. He is way behind the times and so is everyone who agrees with him. In a hundred years or so, this will be the equivilent of discrimination by race or sex...remember, not so long ago blacks were slaves and women couldn't vote, and people thought that was the way things should be !!!!! I think our president is doing a little mixing of church and state...

07-31-2003, 04:19 PM	#27 (permalink)
docbungle It's all downhill from here Location: Denver	For anyone who calls themselves a christian to have a problem with gay marriage is hipocracy. Who are you to judge? You are not God, so you cannot judge. You were not put here to judge. Yet you have the audacity to judge. I am no better than someone just because they are gay. Why? Because I believe in God, but in doing so understand that me believing in Him does not mean He actually exsists. And if he does, and being gay is some huuuuge sin, then I'm still no better. Why? Because I've done so much bad shit that my sexual orientation is the last thing I should be worried about. And if you think hard about it, the same goes for you. Viewing porn is morally questionable, but Bush doesn't tell me I can't do that. He tells me that once I'm old enough, I can make my own decisions. Well, the same thing should apply to gay marriages: once you're old enough, you can marry whoever the hell you want. __________________ Bad Luck City

07-31-2003, 05:51 PM	#28 (permalink)
Jeff And we'll all float on ok... Location: Iowa City	I don't see a big deal if gays are allowed to marry. But I also don't see a big deal if they're not allowed to marry. I just say leave the laws the way they are. They cause no problems. __________________ For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command or faith a dictum. I am my own God. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us. --Charles Bukowski

07-31-2003, 05:54 PM	#29 (permalink)
Ralvek Crazy Location: MN	I love conservatives...they are all about government staying out of people's lives...except when it comes to regulating what they thing a person's morals should be. What business is it for an old white fart what someone does in the privacy of his/her own bedroom? We can all be armed to the teeth, but heaven forbid if two men/women want to get married...now I bet most of the morons just love to jerk off in the privacy of their own homes to two fat chicks licking ass...Let's just go back to the old days of women cleaning and cooking, and as African-Americans being our mules to do our bidding! __________________ Ban country music, it promotes inbreeding.

07-31-2003, 06:08 PM	#30 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	I think that only applies to the religious right, probably not even all of them. Blanket statements are treacherous, but it is warm under here, thanks. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

07-31-2003, 07:43 PM	#32 (permalink)
TaLoN Loser Location: MI	im not religious at all. if you aren't contributing to the evolution of the human race, then i don't like you

07-31-2003, 07:55 PM	#33 (permalink)
Zargix Crazy Location: Everywhere, Simultaniously	The only good i can see coming from this is a big part of the country getting pissed at bush and not re-electing him

07-31-2003, 09:40 PM	#36 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	I say LET THE HOMOSEXUALS MARRY! They need to get fucked over on taxes just like the straight, 2-income folks. Seriously, if two people want to promise to love, honor and cherish one another until death parts them, its none of my business. If god has a problem with that, I'm sure She will take care of it. __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

07-31-2003, 11:00 PM	#38 (permalink)
jibs Tilted	I don't see what the big deal is with same sex marriages. If you like the cock.. you like the cock. Big deal.

07-31-2003, 11:14 PM	#40 (permalink)
obediah Crazy	ugh. Nothing witty to say about this. Just ugh. No suprises. Just ugh.