Bush on gay marriage (Link) - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

seretogis · 08-01-2003, 03:19 AM

I would honestly rather that the government move to extract any mention of marriage in tax regulation than to attempt to define it. As for legal issues (life insurance, benefits) society is handling this on their own -- many employers offer "domestic partner benefits", and everyone, gay or not, should have a will.

Bill O'Rights · 08-01-2003, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixate
I had a giant post to a response in this thread, but I decided to keep my big fucking mouth shut. It's just not worth it. I hate religion and all discussions about it. The hypocrisy makes me want to vomit. I just can't keep mt temper at a tame level so I'm outa this one.

WHAT!?! Nuh-uh pal, no way. I was <b>so</b> looking forward to a good old fashioned sixate attack. If I can go off on a rant, then by the golly, so can you. Come on, get it up here. Get it posted. Come on, come on, there's christians out there spreading myth-information. You're not gonna let let that slide...are you?

*ducks and covers*

gov135 · 08-01-2003, 06:38 AM

I like receiving moral messages for our whole society from a guy that can't keep his own family in check.

Daughters in all kinds of trouble.
Niece is a drug addict.
Brother's being investigated for fraud - with the other brother who is governor of Florida, of all things.
Numerous failed business ventures that left employees high and dry.
His own DUI and admitted cocaine use.

But he's got the moral roadmap for the rest of us.

miked10270 · 08-01-2003, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gov135
I like receiving moral messages for our whole society from a guy that can't keep his own family in check.

Daughters in all kinds of trouble.
Niece is a drug addict.
Brother's being investigated for fraud - with the other brother who is governor of Florida, of all things.
Numerous failed business ventures that left employees high and dry.
His own DUI and admitted cocaine use.

But he's got the moral roadmap for the rest of us.

At least he's able to speak from experience

Like the reformed Bible Bashers, he can stand there and rant along the lines of "I have SEEN the evil of drink and drugs, I have SEEN Satan's work in fornication, I have SEEN ths suffering of people fallen prey to criminals"... And all this at a family gathering

For us foreigners Bush has to be the beest president never elected.

Mike.

flamingdog · 08-01-2003, 07:44 AM

When you get those people who are like "You know brothers and sisters, I was lost to the evils of drink... every night I would drink a bottle of vodka and fall down to sleep in the gutter like a common vagrant. I was lost to the eveils of drug use... I once got so bombed I couldn't even tell you my name. I was LOST to the eveils of fornication... I saw orgies, acts of wanton lust that would make your hair stand up."

I always think they're just bragging.

ninety09 · 08-01-2003, 09:11 AM

the church's anti-gay-marriage point of view is well-justified in their own outdated, inhumanistic way.

way back when everyone was populating the world (once again, historical accuracy comes into question) gay relationships were discouraged because they did not result in offspring; thus no product. the jews condemned the gays because they were busy making themselves a bigger nation than the others - greater population = more strength.

now, the modern-day inane church has not updated their religious "truths" to the twenty-first century; thus we're all still operating on the command to populate the earth.

just another reason why i'm not religious - the church is to blame for many social injustices simply because it is in love with its own so-called glory.

drawerfixer · 08-01-2003, 09:48 AM

It seems like most of the sentiment here is for same-sex marriage. Does the American public agree with the majority here, or is TFP mainly liberal?

Just a question. As someone biologically minded, homosexuality doesn't make much sense. Scientists haven't found anything as of yet that would cause one to be gay. However, I really couldn't care less. It's your house. If you love, you love.

Memalvada · 08-01-2003, 10:29 AM

I might not like it, and it makes me VERY uncomfortable, but they should do with their lives whatever they want. If they want to get married, just let them. Its not like they're doing the rest of us any harm...

Arc101 · 08-01-2003, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Another thing: To those who do complain about the usage of words like 'God' and 'American' and speaking the language of our great nation, try going to another country and speak against what you don't like. You will more than likely end up jailed or even killed.

Hey if you want to complain about things come to England. We like to complain about the government, the weather, our national sports teams, and the fact that aliens are really running the world (I think the last one is just me).

Anyway, on to gay marriages. I totally support people who love and care for each other, and want to spend the rest of their life's together. If they happen to be the same sex, it doesn't matter.

And if you want to say it is wrong for gay people to marry because that is what the Bible says, it also say the following - and I wonder how many people agree:

If a man marries a woman and discovers she is not a virgin, she is to be stoned to death (Deut. 22:13)

A stubborn or rebellious son shall be brought to the authorities and stoned to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

It is an abomination to trim the hair on one's temples or to trim one's beard (Lev. 19:28)

Anything a woman touches during menstruation and for seven days thereafter is unclean (Lev. 12:6)

seretogis · 08-01-2003, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by drawerfixer
It seems like most of the sentiment here is for same-sex marriage. Does the American public agree with the majority here, or is TFP mainly liberal?

We have a few libertarian-types, a few wacko Christians, and a fair amount of misguided bleeding hearts.

Quote:

Originally posted by drawerfixer
Just a question. As someone biologically minded, homosexuality doesn't make much sense. Scientists haven't found anything as of yet that would cause one to be gay. However, I really couldn't care less. It's your house. If you love, you love.

There have been a number of studies which attempt to find a definite biological cause for homosexuality, but they are all flawed in that they are looking for a fool-proof cause for something which imo is not 100% biological. As with many things, upbringing and environment have a great deal to do with sexual orientation/lifestyle. I believe that the base sexual attraction itself is biological, but that behaviors which sprout from that are results of "nurture" rather than "nature".

chavos · 08-01-2003, 10:54 AM

My church blesses same sex marriages, and i'm pissed off that george bush is looking for ways to prevent the free exercize of that religion by not legally acknowledging those unions.

So, to those who want to Christian bash: Don't blame "the church." Blame the churches that still preach intolerance. If there's anyway you can convince them...i'd love it.

sixate · 08-01-2003, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill O'Rights
WHAT!?! Nuh-uh pal, no way. I was <b>so</b> looking forward to a good old fashioned sixate attack. If I can go off on a rant, then by the golly, so can you. Come on, get it up here. Get it posted. Come on, come on, there's christians out there spreading myth-information. You're not gonna let let that slide...are you?

*ducks and covers*

Heh, that got a good laugh outa me, but I'm still keeping my opinion to myself. I have nothing good to say and what I would like to say is much worse than anything I've ever said here. This isn't the place for it. My lips are sealed.

The_Dude · 08-01-2003, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ninety09

now, the modern-day inane church has not updated their religious "truths" to the twenty-first century; thus we're all still operating on the command to populate the earth.

that is so true.

i remember in govt class that we learned about the "living constituation" as the interpretation changes.

the bible is not a "living bible" (obviously).

drawerfixer · 08-01-2003, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
[B]We have a few libertarian-types, a few wacko Christians, and a fair amount of misguided bleeding hearts.

[B]

Heh. So basically a cross-section of America.

Actually, after I posted, I started thinking and I'd bet that TFP has a rather larger liberal following than conservative. (That was bad grammar, wasn't it?) The "staple" of TFP used to be the Titty Board. Not many right-wingers agree with porn, at least publicly. They were prolly the closet lurkers.

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
I believe that the base sexual attraction itself is biological, but that behaviors which sprout from that are results of "nurture" rather than "nature".

I understood what you said, but you lost me at the 'base sexual attraction.' Homosexuality doesn't in any way shape or form seem natural or 'right', biology wise. It doesn't make sense for people of the same sex to be attracted. I just can't see _base_ sexual attraction to be biological.

I am, however, very ignorant in all aspects regarding homosexuality, so if I am wrong or misguided, please be kind.

rockzilla · 08-01-2003, 02:36 PM

I was discussing this whole thing with my (gay) boss at lunch today, he said something along the lines of "A gay couple that stays together for life would do a whole lot less harm to the 'sacred' institution of marriage than any of the 1/2 of hetero marriages that end in divorce." I couldn't agree more.

I don't see how allowing two men or women to marry takes anything away from a hetero couple who marry. Will a gay marriage throw all the straight couples into a life of sin? I don't think so.

Somebody should jam an 11" cock up Bush's ass.

lurkette · 08-01-2003, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by drawerfixer
I understood what you said, but you lost me at the 'base sexual attraction.' Homosexuality doesn't in any way shape or form seem natural or 'right', biology wise. It doesn't make sense for people of the same sex to be attracted. I just can't see _base_ sexual attraction to be biological.

I am, however, very ignorant in all aspects regarding homosexuality, so if I am wrong or misguided, please be kind.

There have been a number of studies that have shown:

1. homosexuality exists in other species so it's unlikely to be a purely social/psychological phenomenon;
2. homosexuality seems to have at least some genetic component to it;
3. homosexuality may be "caused" by some kind of hormonal influence while a fetus is still in utero.

The going theory right now is that some combination of genetics and prenatal hormone exposure produces changes in the brain while a fetus is still developing that make it highly likely that person will grow up to be homosexual. It's hard to pull apart the possible environmental/psychological aspects of it, but more and more people are coming to accept that gay people are born gay, and that their sexual preference isn't a choice any more than heterosexuality is a choice. So, while it may not contribute to the propoagation of the species, it can still be considered "natural" in the sense of occuring for biological and not social reasons.

clavus · 08-01-2003, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rockzilla
Somebody should jam an 11" cock up Bush's ass.

Would it be OK if I just shoved a 3" cock in three and two-thirds times?

chavos · 08-01-2003, 03:11 PM

Quote:

I understood what you said, but you lost me at the 'base sexual attraction.' Homosexuality doesn't in any way shape or form seem natural or 'right', biology wise. It doesn't make sense for people of the same sex to be attracted. I just can't see _base_ sexual attraction to be biological. I understood what you said, but you lost me at the 'base sexual attraction.' Homosexuality doesn't in any way shape or form seem natural or 'right', biology wise. It doesn't make sense for people of the same sex to be attracted. I just can't see _base_ sexual attraction to be biological.

To add to lurkette:

Homosexuality is not a genetic "liability" in that it is not completely selected against. Those genes live on in close relatives who express a heterosexual orientation.

These are some reasons that have been cited as genetic reasons for the perpetuation of homosexuality:

*Having some "gay" genes may help limit male agressiveness, which is a major factor in infanticide.

*"Extra" people in a family with no offspring of their own help raise the orphans inevitably created in a dangerous premodern world.

*Same sex attractions can help bind tribal units together-many species use sexual contact to enforce hieracrchy, relationships, etc...across and amongst genders.

Simply put, despite the initial reasoning, there is no genetic arguement that homosexuality is not an inherited part of our species.

MSD · 08-01-2003, 10:18 PM

To those who use teh bible to justify anti-homosexual positions (no, this is not an MSD original, I pulled it off the internet):

Quote:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? -Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

08-01-2003, 03:19 AM	#41 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	I would honestly rather that the government move to extract any mention of marriage in tax regulation than to attempt to define it. As for legal issues (life insurance, benefits) society is handling this on their own -- many employers offer "domestic partner benefits", and everyone, gay or not, should have a will. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

08-01-2003, 09:48 AM	#47 (permalink)
drawerfixer Stonerific Location: Colorado	It seems like most of the sentiment here is for same-sex marriage. Does the American public agree with the majority here, or is TFP mainly liberal? Just a question. As someone biologically minded, homosexuality doesn't make much sense. Scientists haven't found anything as of yet that would cause one to be gay. However, I really couldn't care less. It's your house. If you love, you love. __________________ They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

08-01-2003, 10:29 AM	#48 (permalink)
Memalvada Psycho Location: South of the border	I might not like it, and it makes me VERY uncomfortable, but they should do with their lives whatever they want. If they want to get married, just let them. Its not like they're doing the rest of us any harm... __________________ "The weak are food for the strong, so die and let me feast!" - Makoto Shishio (RK)

08-01-2003, 06:38 AM	#43 (permalink)
gov135 Junkie Location: Midwest	I like receiving moral messages for our whole society from a guy that can't keep his own family in check. Daughters in all kinds of trouble. Niece is a drug addict. Brother's being investigated for fraud - with the other brother who is governor of Florida, of all things. Numerous failed business ventures that left employees high and dry. His own DUI and admitted cocaine use. But he's got the moral roadmap for the rest of us.

08-01-2003, 07:44 AM	#45 (permalink)
flamingdog Still fighting it.	When you get those people who are like "You know brothers and sisters, I was lost to the evils of drink... every night I would drink a bottle of vodka and fall down to sleep in the gutter like a common vagrant. I was lost to the eveils of drug use... I once got so bombed I couldn't even tell you my name. I was LOST to the eveils of fornication... I saw orgies, acts of wanton lust that would make your hair stand up." I always think they're just bragging.

08-01-2003, 09:11 AM	#46 (permalink)
ninety09 Flavour of the Weak Location: Canada	the church's anti-gay-marriage point of view is well-justified in their own outdated, inhumanistic way. way back when everyone was populating the world (once again, historical accuracy comes into question) gay relationships were discouraged because they did not result in offspring; thus no product. the jews condemned the gays because they were busy making themselves a bigger nation than the others - greater population = more strength. now, the modern-day inane church has not updated their religious "truths" to the twenty-first century; thus we're all still operating on the command to populate the earth. just another reason why i'm not religious - the church is to blame for many social injustices simply because it is in love with its own so-called glory.

08-01-2003, 10:54 AM	#51 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	My church blesses same sex marriages, and i'm pissed off that george bush is looking for ways to prevent the free exercize of that religion by not legally acknowledging those unions. So, to those who want to Christian bash: Don't blame "the church." Blame the churches that still preach intolerance. If there's anyway you can convince them...i'd love it.

08-01-2003, 02:36 PM	#55 (permalink)
rockzilla Junkie Location: The Kitchen	I was discussing this whole thing with my (gay) boss at lunch today, he said something along the lines of "A gay couple that stays together for life would do a whole lot less harm to the 'sacred' institution of marriage than any of the 1/2 of hetero marriages that end in divorce." I couldn't agree more. I don't see how allowing two men or women to marry takes anything away from a hetero couple who marry. Will a gay marriage throw all the straight couples into a life of sin? I don't think so. Somebody should jam an 11" cock up Bush's ass.