Shadowex3

And what kind of argument am I supposed to use in support of their having one of the basic aspects of human emotional spectrum? You want me to find a betazoid? The argument "They don't really feel, not like we do" holds even less water.

So not having the judgment to properly use contraction magically gives anyone that has a kid the sound judgment on whether or not it's alright to habitually abuse children and call it "discipline"? I don't need to be an F1 driver to tell you that driving into the walls is a bad idea, or that you shouldn't put gasoline in a diesel engine, or try to shift from your highest gear straight into your lowest without changing RPMs, and so on.


I've mentioned the pro-violence tendency to redefine things as is convenient in #64 already, this is just another example of that. Coming into a discussion of beltings, whippings, smackings, slappings, and other forms of corporal punishment and trying to make everyone arguing against it look unreasonable by redefining "corporal punishment" as something that can barely be qualified as physical force is just disengenuous.

This isn't a "continuum", there's a very clear line between what the ever-referenced Reasonable Person would consider to be corporal punishment or not. Swatting a kids hand away from something immediately dangerous in a manner which is specifically done to move the hand rather than cause pain, or their clothed butt in a way designed to cause noise rather than a physical strike when they're about to run into the street, is absolutely different from the calculated brutality of deliberately striking them in a manner which is calculated to cause maximum pain with minimum legal liability.

Trying to compare the two is like coming into a police brutality thread and trying to use cracked ribs from CPR to justify going Rodney King on someone.

__________________

Plan9

Yeaaah, assumption and fuck-ups are my job.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

RogueGypsy

There were only two posts between your posts, mine and Hector. His was a response to another post, so yes, it appeared to be directed at my post.



Yeah, I think if I had the whole world to look to for advise, you're the first person I'd call. What's your number?


..

__________________
Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

filtherton

Nice to see we're getting some of our angst out.

It is typically a mistake to assume you know about something when you've never actually done it.

Like assuming you can rap because, you know, they're just talking.

Becoming a parent doesn't make a person any smarter. It does make a person a parent. There are things about being a parent that nonparents can't know. The previous statement should not make you feel bad, if it does, you should take a few breaths and try and figure out why it hurts your feelings when someone points out that you can't accumulate comprehensive knowledge about being a ______ if you've never actually been a _______.

That being said, I don't think that nonparent's opinions on child rearing should be automatically discounted. They should only be discounted if they're ridiculous.

Charlatan

Wow. Some people are very passionate about hitting their kids.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

ASU2003

I think this commercial that Irish broadcasters won't play should go here.


I didn't get hit that many times. I deserved one because I was running behind my sister with a knife. But, I don't remember anything before age 4, and I don't think it is good for the kid if they get smacked at that age or younger. There are alternatives.

Hektore

Some people don't like to be told that they're child abusers just because someone else doesn't like the method of reasonable, effective and non-abusive discipline that they've chosen.

__________________
The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

Charlatan

I think I have been very clear. I don't see it as abuse.

I see it as potentially abusive and open to overuse. I think smacking your kid is retrograde and unnecessary.

There are other, ways to disciple kids that do not involve giving the a whack. That are more effective.

Using violence as a form of discipline is a lazy cop out.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

RogueGypsy

Whoa, easy there Chief, in my case the passion is for the right, not the act. In 14yrs I have never found it necessary to exercise that right. But if I do find it necessary, I will exercise my right.

Then again, I don't reward every breath they take either. So they aren't disrespectful little shits that think everyone owes them the world.


--------------------------

I look at this as the lesser of two evils. I do not condone abuse in any way, physical, verbal or mental. But I do wholeheartedly condone giving your child the tools they need to succeed. One of those tools is discipline.

By taking away the right of a parent to discipline their child, you are telling the parent they are not responsible for their child's behavior. If you take away one tool used in discipline, then you better replace it with something equally effective. So if someone is too lazy, to take the time to talk to their children, explain why what they did is wrong and follow through with a punishment, instead resorting to a slap. If you take away that slap, you better be willing to teach that parent an alternate means of discipline.

Kids aren't stupid and they are devious as can be. They will use everything they can think of, to manipulate you, to get their way. Remove discipline from the equation and you get GeeDubbya Bush and nobody wants/needs that. They don't see a parent talking to them instead of hitting them, they see, that they got to do what they wanted and got away with it.

If you teach your kids they can have anything and do anything they want without any recourse, they will fail in life. Life just doesn't play by those rules and it hits a lot harder than any parent can, life plays for keeps. Life will kill you.

There was a post a couple of years ago about hiring people to work for you. I talked about how I always look for retired seniors citizens when I need help these days because the kids are useless. They would show up when they wanted, put in a pathetic day of work, then ask for a raise. When they didn't get what they wanted, they just quit showing up. No notice, no phone call, just didn't show up or return calls. It was pitiful. They wanted a reward just for being there. I wonder who taught them that? It wasn't isolated either, it was literally 9/10 kids I hired. The one exception was the son of a Dairy farmer who'd been working since he was 6 or 7, helping around the farm. Who do you think is going to do better in life? No, I don't think everyone should start working at 6yo. I think that by working at that young age, he learned discipline and a work ethic that is commendable.

I don't think any real parent holds malice toward their children, but I think a lot of people, not just parents, fail to see the long term effects they're having on children. The current generation graduating college is the scariest shit I've seen in my lifetime. If you think the country is fucked up now, wait 20 years. Think the government is out of control with taxes, non-taxes, corporate lobbying, war, national debt, etc..... What do you think is going to happen when these self entitled little shits hold the keys to the kingdom? That kid who was rewarded just for showing up. The one that got a 5 minute time out for doing exactly what he was told not to do. The child that was taught all his/her life that it's better to just do it and ask forgiveness later. The child who has never had to earn anything and has never paid the consequences of his/her actions?

Fuck, just look at what's happening right now with our economy; the bank bailouts, Wall street, Supreme Court judges, unapproved wars, trillions of dollars of debt and none of those responsible will ever be held accountable for their actions. Just like undisciplined children and we as citizens, bad parents.

Once again, I'm not condoning abuse, just discipline that is effective. The idea that a slap teaches violence as a solution is non-sense as well, beating your kids may teach that, but not a slap to get their attention. Like it or not, we are born violent. Don't believe me? Try watching a few toddlers trying to play with the same toy. In your first year, you haven't had time to learn violence and in all likely hood have never even seen it. But it's a Battle Royale when more than one child decides they want to play with that same toy. Eye gouging, kicking, hitting no holds barred brawls. Hitting is probably one of the most corrected behaviors and likely the reason some one decided it must come from the parents actions, because it is so common. It's common, because it's already there at birth.

We are effectively training morality out of society with these actions.

And somehow people are equating reasonable, necessary, discipline, with abuse???? Equating a hand or butt slap as violence??? Does that make all physical contact violence? I believe the pendulum has swung way too far to the side and these actions are doing far more harm than they were intended to prevent. Parents going to prison and kids in foster care because some tiny minded ass lick witnessed a hand slap and called the police?? What the fuck is wrong with people?

I have a friend. Here mom is a psychotic bitch. My friend decided she would not let her daughter spend anymore unsupervised time with grandma when she found her 8yo daughter in the bathtub with her 65yo mother. What the fuck is a 65yo woman doing bathing with an 8yo??? So grandma calls social services and tells them her daughter is a drunk and she's abusing her granddaughter. In 7 years I've seen her have 3 drinks, not a drunk. Social services shows up at her house, does an inspection, finds 1 old dusty half empty bottle of wine, and takes her child!!?? They then place the child with grandma. 6 weeks later on a surprise inspection, the social worker finds grandma and granddaughter naked in a kiddie pool in the back yard after there was no answer to the front door. Good job social services. At least she got her daughter back the next day. But after 6 weeks of who knows what. Yes, it could have been totally innocent. No one thinks it was and the child was in therapy for reasons unknown to me for 3 years after that. This is the kind of shit that happens when you give control to an uninterested outside party. This is what happens when you try to enforce your beliefs on others. Yes, some children are saved from abuse. However an innocent group is also sucked into the whirlwind of the self righteous cleansing of society and in the process more harm than good is done.


Moderation people, moderation.

__________________
Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

Shadowex3

Quote:

So not having the judgment to properly use contraction

I typoed contraception and it was autocorrected to contraction. That it was a typo is pretty obvious from the context of the discussion and the fact that "contraction" doesn't remotely make sense. Was it necessary to make such a large multicolored deal out of that?

Also utterly unrelated but since it IS a safety issue: learn some more about transmissions before you blow one up. Engine RPMs transmitted through the gears of the transmission apply torque to the wheels which gets you moving. It may be strongly correlated with vehicle speed, but RPMs and speed are NOT automatically equivalent.


You are indeed being disengenuous (inbetween insults) and here's why: First you try and redefine "corporal punishment" to be something everyone in the thread agrees barely qualifies as physical force let alone "smacking" as has been discussed for a page and a half at least.

Now you're trying to redefine the OP's post to something else for YOUR convenience. The OP clearly asks whether we would/do smack our children, where we draw the line between discipline and abuse, how violence affects the child and long term affects on personality and behavior, and our thoughts on the UN (ie govt) involvement in the whole debate as you can clearly see right here:


Spoiler:

Quote:

So does the UN convention for the Rights of the Child apply here? Is smacking considered child abuse and should parents be held accountible for the way they discipline their children? Would you/Do you smack your kids? where do you draw the line between discipline and abuse? as a parent of a toddler who's going to start acting up soon, ive been thinking about this topic a lot. Does smacking affect the child, and if so, what long term affect does it have on a childs behaviour, and ultimately their personalities? i have to say that im undecided on this debate as yet, but i think parents can and have a right to be firm with their kids and discipline them without smacking them. The problem here is that the UN convention refers to the physical and mental abuse of kids. Are parents hands tied? should we just ignore the UN? what are your thoughts?

No, that's not every child's first reaction starting with the fact that I myself am still here as are at least five other toddlers I've ridden the bus with in the last month alone.

It's called a metaphor.

__________________

Charlatan

Gypsy... my tongue was rather firmly in cheek.

That said, I stand by my comments. Discipline is essential. Discipline need not come from hitting your kid. There are other, more effective, methods. Hitting your kids is lazy and shows a lack of imagination.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke