skizziks

so i'm reading the book Moonwalking with Einstein about a journalist who gets involved with the World Championship Memory Olympics thingy. the book is about memory, how to improve it, what it means, etc.

fascinating stuff. it describes how we remember, why we can remember some things and not others, and how to improve your memory. it turns out those people who can remember huge poems word for word and lists of random words and numbers aren't savants but regular schmoes who trained and learned how to do it. apparently it takes about a year to learn how, and age has nothing to do with it.

it has a philosophy bent, in that we are our memories, they are what help to define and shape us. it also talks about how modernity and advancements have helped us ruin our memory (i don't need to remember anything, i have a blackberry, google, etc). it talks about how actually easy it is (sort of) to remember things, using "the memory palace," which first came about in ancient greece. seriously amazingly interesting stuff. it mentions how americans are crappy at memory because we tend to think in the future, while europeans are really good because they tend to think in the past. (not that this is a rule, it is just an opinion of a guy, but it makes some sense).

so anyway....

does anyone else think that memory is important, and not just because it helps with shopping or to do lists, but that it plays a significant part in our makeup, in determining who we are? when you memorize a book, you *know* it, you internalize it, it becomes part of you, and it shapes you and affects how you are and act and think.

i never really thought too much about it. now i'm really conscious of it.

anyone else read this book? thoughts or opinions about the book or the importance of memory?

dlish

i havent read the book, though ive read another memory book years ago.

after a while people forget (ironic?) what they have read and go back to being memory-lazy again.

my younger brother has an excellent memory. he could regurgitate the entire dialogue of The Shawshank Redemption. Im also sure he could recite most of the qur'an by heart too. he's much more switched on and smarter than i'd ever be.

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Ourcrazymodern?

"help to define & shape us" they do, but before the memories came that which remembers them, didn't it? Thus, they don't make you. Memory is individual. I shudder to think that the reason we remember events differently is because different things happened to each of us sharing the same experience in space & time. I look at my bookshelves & realize I don't remember most of what most of the books were even about, but remember minor things with excruciating clarity & almost nobody's phone numbers... I didn't read the book you mention, but believe we can communicate across the vast boundaries between us without sharing any personal knowledge. Memory is fragile, frangible, flexible, & priceless. Referential compost, if you will.

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Plan9

I believe the depth of our memory is what separates man from all the other creatures of the Earth. Each individual is shaped by a detailed history.


Memento is a film masterpiece about memory. Discussion of memory and its implications... totally one of my favorite topics. It applies to every aspect of our lives and is overwhelmingly responsible for the types of people that we are and how we interact with others and see the world. Deep stuff.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Strange Famous

One of the most profound (on a simple level) comments on this I ever heard actually came from a kind of reality TV show. Basically a UK and Norweigan team tried to complete approximations of Scott and Amundsen's attempts at the pole (over an equivalent length course in Greenland).

The show itself was fascinating to me (and showed Scott was neither the bumbling clown or the great hero he is alternativel portrayed as, while highlighting Amundsen's ruthless professionalism, efficiency, and courage)...

But anyway, the Norweigan team race along and make good time.

The UK team slowly break down, and are pulled out 5 days before the official end as they are starting to starve.

The UK expedition leader the first day they are back in the hotel, have had a big meal, a hot shower... makes a statement something like "the great thing about the human condition is that we have no memory of pain"

You can remember how shit things were, remember the FACT of it hurting, but you cannot remember the pain itself. I remember when I broke my leg it hurt, but thinking about it now I couldnt summon any actual sensation that I felt then.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Plan9

I disagree, Strange. I think our memories of pain can be incredibly vivid and that it prevents us from doing things by learning.

Children get cut and burned all the time. You almost have to let a kid stick a coin in an power outlet and get zapped. "Told ya."

I remember what it felt like when I had 3" of my foot cut open down to the bone by a beer broken bottle. It makes me shiver.

I can easily recall what it was like when my exwife and last partner broke my heart. Mental wounds aren't as easily healed.

Memories are, as our buddy Stephen King said, like scars... they may stretch and fade with time but don't ever disappear.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

skizziks

this is true, but not what the book is talking about. it is about memorizing things, why we remember some facts and not others. we remember places and events, things out of the ordinary, we remember dirty porn easier than other things. routine things are not "important" and get glossed over.


[QUOTE=Ourcrazymodern?;2889861]I look at my bookshelves & realize I don't remember most of what most of the books were even about, but remember minor things with excruciating clarity & almost nobody's phone numbers.../QUOTE]

we don't remember books because we don't read them the way they were read waaaaaaaay back in roman/greek times. back then, memory of things was important, it's how information was carried.

Strange Famous

Emotional pain I agree can be lasting

That hasnt been my own experience with physical pain... but touch wood I havent ever been seriously ill and havent suffered worse injuries than broken bones (a few fingers, nose a couple of times, and hip once)

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

dlish

well explain to me why women keep having kids when it's often described as the most painful and traumatic experience one can have.

only last week i spent from 5am-10pm climbing a mountain in one of the most challenging days of climbing. despite all the pain, i can barely recall the pain. i can recall the elation of reaching the summit at lowes point quite vividly.

its a similar story with many other mountains ive climbed in Tanzania, Oman, and Malaysia. ironically enough, most of the toughest mountains, ive climbed twice.

By far the hardest day of my life was when i was climbing Mt Kinabalu in Borneo after being sick for a few days prior to the climb. By summit morning i could barely lift my legs and needed to pull them up with my hands. sure i remember the pain in my gut, the swollen fingers, the rainsoaked jacket, and the lethargic legs while being ravaged by horizontal drizzling rain in 30 knot winds in zero temparature. That day it took me a full minute to walk 10 metres, and it hurt like hell.

I honestly thought i was going to die that day. The only thing i wanted to do that day was reach the summit. I am glad i did. had i not i dont think id have the same fond recollections that i do now. what i do find is that in times like those is that people lose sense of pain and time.

perhaps memory is linked to whether something was successful or not

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

flat5

...

skizziks

then why the hell do i keep getting tattoos? (well, honestly, probably because i'm sorta stupid like that).

Jetée

I remember seeing a small sampling of this little-known event (I think it was only the Local American one, tho) when it comes to patterns, recognition, and lengthy bits of numbers. I'm quite sure they incorporate(d) the memorization of Pi's exactitude for a few diehards one year.

Additionally, as soon as you remarked it, I had the vision and recollection of the ending of Fahrenheit 451, and how, even when faced with the destruction of the tangible parts of memory, (books) because of the efforts of a dedicated few, where inscription to paper is impossible, they still found a way to keep the work(s) "alive", by selective-memory-recital specialisation (or in other words: learning the entirety of an epic poem, by heart, and the ability to recite at will, verbatim).

I really like this topic. I've got to remind myself to post back here with a clear, definitive thought on how memory affects my relationship with realities, whenever I get around to clearing everything else I've left on hold.

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As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

citadel

It reminds me of people who lust after being taller, having bigger breasts, better toned thighs, whiter teeth, etc. I've never read the book, but when people devote all this time to gaining one thing in particular, I think it's more because of how they think it will make them happy than anything else.

There's this huge value placed on it in their mind because they don't have it. My memory is the best out of anyone I know, I shock myself with things I still recall after many years, but it's just another part of me. It has it's downsides too, people looking at you like you're a stalker when you remember things about them that even they don't, having to politely bite your tongue because you know that joke, avoiding the previews because they'll ruin the movie for you, or when you have a particularly bad memory you wish would fade away that won't. It's looked at as something desirable and sought after when in reality it's just another color in the human spectrum, that comes with positives and negatives.

I'd be just as confused by someone who wrote a book so people could have as much hair on their legs as I do.

GreyWolf

Many people associate a great memory with intelligence. Actually, memory in and of itself is only a single facet of intellectual ability. It is related to, and part of, intelligence, but one can be supremely intelligent and have a poor memory, and be relatively unintelligent and have an excellent memory. While people always think they wish they could remember MORE, there is an evolutionary advantage to being able to forget.

One of the most fascinating books ever (and quite short) is Aleksandr Luria's book "The Mind of a Mnemonist" (also called "The Story of S"). It is about one of the extremely rare cases of true eidetic memories. Luria was a well known Russian psychologist who encountered a young newspaper report, S., who had an absolutely perfect memory (and in some way, seemed to also suffer from synesthesia in that his memories combined all the senses - voices had colours, tastes, and textures). He could remember incredibly long lists of words after only a few minutes of study, forwards, backwards, or in random order; even hours, days, weeks, or years later.

And that was a problem. As the number of lists got longer, it became more difficult for him to find the correct one. It was easier for him to write down his grocery list, not because he could not remember it, but because he could remember last week's, and the week before, and the week before, and so on and so on.

He was actually of ordinary intelligence, and his memories became a burden to him. Much of his time was devoted to dealing with how to use them effectively. Without an efficient storage and retrieval system, too many memories overwhelm the intellect. Forgetting protects us from ourselves.

We are not our memories. We are largely the sum of our experiences, and how we reacted and continue to react to them, which is different. Many of those experiences are actually forgotten, as nature intended.

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The secret to great marksmanship is deciding what the target was AFTER you've shot.

Vorson

Hello Skizziks. I read this book and you can't imagine how much i love this book. I think memory is great thing in which we store those moments of our life which we can't want to forget. I personally have a good memory and i stored many things and persons in it.

skizziks

yeah, the book starts out mentioning this and telling the story of S.[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]

i would be really interested in what you thought about the book i'm talking about if you read the book i'm talking about.

bagatelle

We know the physical pain will go away in time, when the body heals. Like giving birth gives more in return. Emotional pain may be harder to get by, we don't often want to go there again.

We can meet a person, who brings a lot of memories to mind, how we were in another "era". I sometimes don't like to reconnect with some old acquaintances, because I didn't like the way I was at the time, or how I felt, compared to what is now. I easily "blame" or relate other people to some events and memories, that were not pleasant to me, just because they were there, even though they might have not had any actual negative affect.

People and their views change, but yet there's the chance that similar events with same people happen again.

Sorry, I don't know the book, this thread is about.

This idea just came to my mind right now. I'm a kind of person to ponder things a lot, but I never really make any earth-stopping evaluation about my life and current situation. Would it help me to remember my life later, if I stopped now and then to make a thorough analysis? Should I write a diary?

I used to talk to a person, who was fascinating to me, and I memorized many things about him. It was a disappointment to notice, he didn't remember some of the things I had told him earlier. This kind of affected our conversations later, why should I tell him this and that, he won't remember it anyway.

Sometimes I don't like to hear people telling me about our common memories, maybe because I get confused, that their memories differ from mine.

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GreyWolf

I haven't read it, but based on your comments, and Vorson's, I might give it a read. It's a fascinating area of study. When I was studying psychology, cognition and memory were the areas I planned to concentrate on.

__________________
The secret to great marksmanship is deciding what the target was AFTER you've shot.

chinese crested

Skizziks - it is oh so important. I realise it because I had to have brain surgery and have lost so much of mine. I still love my sons and dogs, but have lost most of the memories of them growing up, odd days out etc. Some seems to still be here, but its mostly older bad memories - and I still miss those I have lost - my dad, my wee one whos ashes sit next to me now.
I was thinking of smart drugs/diet, as I understand this has helped patients with elderly shrivelled grey cells problems. I think my memories fell out when they opened up my head, pehaps flew away disguised as a flock of fairies - often said I was away with them. We are moulded by experiences, and learn from them, and memory is part of that.

---------- Post added at 02:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:43 AM ----------

well explain to me why women keep having kids when it's often described as the most painful and traumatic experience one can have.


Its the aaaah factor, when the little being is placed in your arms - nature makes us feel soft to babies - of just about any species - its the babies protection, to look endearing. Its probably no worse than you peeing out a squash ball. As I remember - its peeing afterwards that is worse. You know all you get is the burning, no gift at the end.
Bagatelle - a diary or journal is a good thing to keep. Go for it.

Jinn

The ability to reflect on prior decisions, even decades prior, when considering present and future decisions, is what I believe primarily separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom.

Indeed, many other animal speeches communicate quite effectively, some can gesture, learn, adapt, develop new hunting strategies. Wild apes have been seen to commit "raids", which are synchronized and planned attacks on other groups of apes.

Many other animals can learn new tasks, like a mouse learning a maze.

But really only humans can reflectively connect prior memories beyond a Pavlovian "bad/good" response. The margins of "human" consciousness includes those with autism, who despite other severely limiting mental abilities, can still recall prior events.

I think that if I would ever lose a considerable portion of my memory, I'd feel considerably less human.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

chinese crested

Jinn - I might have agreed with you once. Saw a documentary about some orangutans - one had been taught sign and could communicate. After that part of her life ended, she was shipped on to other experiments, and finaly was infected with hepatitis. After many years she was finaly reunited with the scientist who taught her sign - and immediately she started signing - asking to be taken home because she was sad etc. The poor animal so obviously distressed was signing and signing - once again she had a human who could understand her, someone she recognised. Heartbreaking. Of course she could never leave - none of them could - all lived isolated existences, infected with hep. The experiments at an end, the vets were ordered to euthanise - and they refused. The animals deserved better. In the documentary, you saw them in their seperate enclosures, designed with a hub and seperate sleeping compartments, spreading out like a wheel into their seperate outside spaces. Heartbreaking but informative. The lady who taught her sign wept openly too - they had been tutor and student and also friends.

Jinn

I feel you there, and I might be willing to include the higher order primates in "humanity" if only because of how much non-verbal human intelligence they possess. In this case it could have been actual historical memory and the memory of time spent with the woman being pleasant the current experience being unpleasant. This is the most obvious example of a Pavlovian response, even something animals as "simple" as dogs possess.

What I was referring to is reasoned examination of the past, beyond a simple bad/good analysis. We can make decisions that directly undermine the "good" factor of previous experiences ("Man, getting laid was pleasurable") based on a complex web of related knowledge ("STDs, babies, relationships") that I don't think any animal truly possess.

I'm sure to be proven wrong by certain exception (as a matter of fact I just found this article about birds using social context to alter their behavior: Scientists Rethinking Nature of Animal Memory) but I still consider it a largely a human behavior. Saying that there is *anything* 100% unique to humans anatomically or neurologically is folly, considering we're only a couple hundred thousand generations away from other "stupid" animals.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

GreyWolf

General Semantics differentiates animals from intelligent beings through the concept of time-binding - the consciousness of the passage of time with respect to life; that is knowing you are growing older, and being able to use one's memories to come up with unique solutions to existing problems. Time-binding allows us to pass on our accumulated knowledge to others. It is intimately related to the fact that we can peruse our memories, rather than just using them. Our memories are an integral part of who we are. They can be, however, be overcome through our intelligence. Animals, non-time-binders, may have memories, but they are situationally specific, not selectable as with humans. An animal's memory only comes to the surface when required, not when desired as with humans.

In a large way, the complexity of the time-binding memories is what separates us from animals.

__________________
The secret to great marksmanship is deciding what the target was AFTER you've shot.

Zeraph

Actually, First my dad, then me. We have memory problems, like serious, bordering on disability memory problems. I've found that actually it doesn't matter much. Annoying.