In Defense of Incivility - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Plan9 · 04-04-2011, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doctor Long

Commentators, politicians, and people of every stripe have started yet another predictable cycle bemoaning the recent downturn in civility, particularly as it pertains to the national political dialogue. They claim that shouting has replaced rational debate; sound bites have replaced intelligent discourse; partisanship has replaced compromise; and confrontation has replaced deference. Many point to the anonymity of the internet, where flaming and trolling are valued more than contributing to and participating in the community. Others point to the breakdown in traditional family values and the slow, steady decay of public institutions where respect, courtesy, and manners once reigned supreme and uncouthness was regarded as the province of the lower, uneducated classes and something to be shunned. Still others point to the associated rise of popular music, television, and movies that celebrate rudeness and elevate vulgarity to an art form on equal footing with poetry and the great classics of literature.

Well, fuck them. At long last, I say! Random acts of incivility are the last true and honest expression of the human spirit in our politically correct age of un-enlightenment. Of course we no longer debate issues in an open and rational manner. Agreeing to disagree has been substituted for reasoned debate to the point that if you tell me a woman should be stoned for not covering her face in public because your faith says so, I can’t call you a backward savage because I’m expected to understand rather than condemn. And no wonder since we’ve replaced the god of reason with the twin gods of multicultural tolerance and consensus. Today, every child is a special snow flake, every life is precious, every point of view has merit, everyone’s a winner, and all voices deserve to be heard and have a seat at the table. We have become, as our own Matt Cale is fond of saying, a bunch of sentimental grandmothers offering fake sincerity in place of honesty.

We’ve been raised, conditioned, and taught conformity in our reactions, not the rules because somewhere along the way the rules themselves became sexist, culturally biased, xenophobic, and oppressive. Since when did pointing out asshole behavior become worse than the offending behavior itself? Some selfish prick, full of entitlement and who has been taught that he’s above the rules because he’s a special individual, is in the self-checkout express line at the supermarket with a full fucking cart and suddenly I’m the asshole if I say anything? What the fuck? Not only have we sacrificed the normal rules of behavior on the altar of civility, we have replaced them with far more irrational rules that designate too many areas of debate and behavioral reactions out-of-bounds. We swallow our emotions, dance around issues, and walk on egg shells for fear that someone somewhere might get their feelings hurt if we make a judgment. “Can’t we all just get along?” has become the guiding principle that has turned us all into a bunch of sniveling little pussies.

We may very well look back at Joe Wilson shouting, “You lie!” from the floor of Congress as our generation’s “I’m mad as hell and I’m not going take it anymore!” moment. A spontaneous instance of incivility in which two words conveyed more honesty than any speech delivered in that hallowed institution within my lifetime. Of course Wilson is full of shit and an asshole to boot, but his behavior, like that of his fellow Right Wing town hall disrupters is not cause for alarm but cause for celebration. The recent spate of alleged incivility has torn away what remained of the Republican Party’s respectability, exposing them and their supporters as the racist, classist, uneducated, fundamentalist, corporate cocksucking assholes that they really are. At long last – public validation of what we only dared to whisper among close friends and like-minded associates for fear of being branded as intolerant. Democrats, too, should prepare themselves for a maelstrom of criticism for their own collective pussification and compromise brought about by their position as a constant bottom boy in the D.C. orgy of special interests. At least the Republicans are butch enough to actually do some pitching instead of cowering on all fours playing the submissive with a welcoming ass. One can only hope that the long-simmering passions of the Left will at long last shrug off the shackles of civility and pacifist non-confrontation and opt for an in-your-face, sarcastic, and caustic style of mean-spirited ridicule, like Barney Frank’s response to one of the town hall downies. If we can’t drag these people and their ideas from the shadows of tolerance, then we will taunt them kicking and screaming into the light through open confrontation.

We are on the cusp of a magical time when the stars align, the heavens open, and the people of this country might just awaken from their anesthetized slumber of apathy masquerading as consensus and shout in unison with one loud voice, “FUCK YOU COCKSUCKER!” It doesn’t matter who that cocksucker is because your cocksucker may be different from my cocksucker, whether it’s the fundamentalists who have been allowed to use the law to deny equal rights to others based on their own narrow, twisted version of morality; the race-baiters who have used our collective guilt to avoid addressing their own community’s long-standing and culturally toxic problems; those who march in gay pride parades dressed in leather chaps carrying signs that decry gay stereotyping; every Asian who has ever sat behind the wheel of a car; third generation immigrants who demand bilingual classes for their fourth generation immigrant children; women who complain about the glass ceiling from the comfort of the home they won in their divorce, along with full custody of the children and weekly alimony; teachers, medical professionals, and parents who make excuses for their asshole kids by claiming they have learning disabilities or ADHD; white people; corporations who cry poverty and expect public bailouts for their own piss poor management decisions; or idiotic G20 protesters who smash the windows of a Subway store because they think they’re sticking it to The Man.

So, let it out. Scream it from the rooftops. Don’t wait your turn. Forget about censoring yourself or moderating your ideas. Flip someone the bird. I’m an asshole, he’s an asshole, she’s an asshole, we’re all assholes. Wouldn’t you like to be an asshole too? To hell with civility! For fuck’s sake, just be an asshole. Trust me, you’ll feel better.

I think it's true. Between politicians and celebrities, incivility is quite literally all the rage. What are TFPer thoughts on the matter?

In your personal experience, has society become less and less courteous and more and more curt or was it just always this way?

Is passive-aggressive politically-correct angst going the way of the dinosaurs and being replaced by right-here-right-now in-your-face vulgarity?

GreyWolf · 04-04-2011, 02:45 AM

BULLSHIT!!!

This article confuses INTOLERANCE and INCIVILITY. Intolerance is not necessarily bad. Not tolerating stoning of women (or anyone) is perfectly justified. Calling a person's faith savagery to his face is incivility. You can express your disgust and non-acceptance of another's religion, political stance, choice of sports teams or even footwear in very vehement and forthright terms WITHOUT being impolite about it.

That's how mature, intelligent humans do it. They don't yell invectives, they speak plainly, politely, and with the intent of getting the message across without causing the discussion to degenerate into infantile name calling or cursing such as this article praises.

Oh, and the BULLSHIT was meant as irony, if you didn't get it.

Plan9 · 04-04-2011, 03:29 AM

Greywolf, I fail to see how this tirade is confusing intolerance and incivility using the examples provided.

Care to set me straight? Use small words.

...

Just in case there is any question about the seriousness of the make-a-point antics in this article: It's satire.

Carry on.

mixedmedia · 04-04-2011, 06:01 AM

I simply don't buy the argument that being an asshole is somehow more honest than not being one. Language was developed for our use, so that we can express our thoughts and feelings with more complexity than grunting and pointing.

I agree that in-your-face confrontation is sometimes called for, sometimes desirable. It doesn't bother me within the proper context. But to send out the message that 'you lie!' is a suitable alternative to a reasoned discussion about political matters (in the senate, no less) is foolhardy and, quite frankly, dumb. And I can't help but think that the proponents of these kinds of transactions are possibly simply lazy. Reasoned debates aren't passive-aggressive, they take time, effort, thought, sincerity, caring. This Doctor Long is really showing his ass when he says that 'you lie!' shows "more honesty than any speech delivered in that hallowed institution within my lifetime."

More honest than this?

YouTube - There Is A WAR Being Waged Against The Working Families Of America! Sen Bernie Sanders

and that's just one example. there are thousands of instances of politicians standing up and saying 'fuck you!' to the assholes of the world with dignity and honesty. And I'm still inclined to throw the weight of my trust and respect behind these people.

There was an article last week in one of my nursing journals about the trend toward incivility in nursing practice. Is this something we really want to invest ourselves in? Because there are no exceptions. You don't get to pick and choose. Either we are a society that values things like respect, decency, compassion and caring or we are not.

EventHorizon · 04-04-2011, 06:24 AM

i agree with the "trolling and flaming are all the rage" but letting our emotions take control of us is the ultimate middle finger to our advanced brains, language structure, and opposable thumbs.

solution?

microwave the server (wherever it is) that hosts 4chan. i realize that there are other sources responsible for the growing population of fucktards but that monumental institution needs to be shut down. if the earth right now is Rome, 4chan is the mob controlling it calling for ever more shocking evidence of unspeakable acts.

as for the politicians, people once again need to stop letting their emotions get the best of them when they vote. if politician X makes some really passionate speech about how support from his constituents will guarantee them happiness in the years to come and someone thinks: wow that guy really knew what he was talking about. you know who else got crazy at the microphone and made impassioned speeches?
Adolf fucking Hitler
Logical, ethical, and reasonable voices are the only acceptable ones that should be allowed any value when deciding the laws governing millions.

its an insult to everything that we have achieved as humans to allow our emotions rule our lives. anyone can give into being a slightly elevated cro-magnon man with a computer. i just wish that the same species that invented space travel on our planet would stop valuing extreme outward emotional expression

Plan9 · 04-04-2011, 06:28 AM

EventHorizon,

DID YOU MEAN: Satire ?

That and I'm trying to figure out why you work to put 4Chan (whatever the fuck that is) into 18% of your posts.

Aside from being a groupthink for chumps and hosting illegal pornography, something tells me 4Chan isn't North Korea.

...

Alright, since my three direction lines in the OP aren't doing the job, lemme rephrase these questions so they're better understood:

"In your personal experience, has society become less and less courteous and more and more curt or was it just always this way?

Is passive-aggressive politically-correct angst going the way of the dinosaurs and being replaced by right-here-right-now in-your-face vulgarity?"

Better?

EventHorizon · 04-04-2011, 06:39 AM

i have a major grudge against the website 4chan.org and while i agree that i'm really outspoken about it, i'd like to think that i talk about more than just "how to hate a certain website" on TFP (18% is pretty high yeah?)

to answer your question: yes, in my personal experience society has become less courteous to my dismay and that the in your face vulgarity is on its way in.

Baraka_Guru · 04-04-2011, 06:48 AM

The medium is the message.

As the article implies, the Age of the Internet has led to a communication standard that allows us to express ourselves in ways that would otherwise make for awkward situations. The shift in political discourse is shaped by print, television, radio, and the Internet, and they are all interconnected and are essentially crossing over one another.

The Internet is a medium of seemingly limitless possibilities and connections. There is mainstream and there is "the underground" and there is the underbelly. Before the Internet, all we had were one-way media or two-way communication via telephone, in-person meetings, or handwritten letters.

If there is indeed a shift in civility, I'm sure much of the cause can be tied into the Internet itself.

dksuddeth · 04-04-2011, 07:56 AM

incivility? they think we're currently being uncivil? they ain't seen nothing yet.

mixedmedia · 04-04-2011, 08:26 AM

Has society become less courteous?

Absolutely. And I think it can be tied to many factors including a generation growing up with the internet. But also intellectual laziness, cynicism and (let me turn this around on the author of the OP article) the assumption that we are all 'special snowflakes.'

A choice between passive-aggressive angst and in-your-face vulgarity? I, um, choose neither. And I don't see them as being representative of anything but a very narrow, self-serving slice of reality.

StanT · 04-04-2011, 08:45 AM

It depends on the context. I'm not exactly known for my tact, but I'm not hostile about it, just blunt. It seems we have a new national pastime of polarizing and provoking people just to see what happens.

I've walked away from the majority of the web sites, talk shows, and news sources that I used to frequent. I'm fine with intelligent disagreement; but provocation for the sake of provocation isn't enlightening or entertaining to me.

KirStang · 04-04-2011, 09:38 AM

I'm a simpleton. Just be tactful. Say what needs to be said, but don't be a dick about it unless you have to. (Easier said than done!)

Baraka_Guru · 04-04-2011, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

incivility? they think we're currently being uncivil? they ain't seen nothing yet.

Yeah, I don't think I'll be surprised at how low the bar could go, especially in America. However, there are indications that the bar in Canada has dropped as well. But still, no comparison really.

I think 2012 is going to be entertaining, if not depressing. Maybe both.

GreyWolf · 04-04-2011, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

Greywolf, I fail to see how this tirade is confusing intolerance and incivility using the examples provided.

Care to set me straight? Use small words.

...

Just in case there is any question about the seriousness of the make-a-point antics in this article: It's satire.

Carry on.

I apologise... I responded to the article and not your comments thereon. My mistake.

But first - confusing intolerance with incivility. The author claims that he cannot call someone a backwards savage over that person's belief that stoning of women is acceptable; that the author must understand and not condemn. The backwards savage is incivility. Condemnation is not. Not accepting stoning is intolerance of the stoning. It is perfectly all right to be intolerant of things that should not be tolerated. Name calling is impolite, and generally unproductive. I feel he has confused the two.

Now - is society becoming less civil? I think so. Among other things, the anonymity of the internet allows flaming insults to go without stricture beyond (maybe) being banned from a forum. Previously, social ostracism made people far less likely to stray outside societal norms. We don't get that now, and it moves from the net to mainstream life. As well, "shock jock" style celebrity has become mainstream, leading people to believe you can discuss the most intimate subjects openly, and freely criticise anyone who doesn't support your position.

This is not a good thing. While I don't like guns myself, or advocate their use for anything much other than hunting, perhaps there is something to the old saying "an armed society is a polite society."

EventHorizon · 04-04-2011, 12:14 PM

i hate to beat a dead horse but internet? anonymity? sounds familiar...

ring · 04-04-2011, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

A choice between passive-aggressive angst and in-your-face vulgarity? I, um, choose neither. And I don't see them as being representative of anything but a very narrow, self-serving slice of reality.

^ Yes to this. ^

Niner. You've once again picked a voice from: Ruthless Reviews,
to drape your initial post with.

Dr. Long sounds like Matt Cale imitating "Mr.One Note" Henry Rollins'
style rantings. It's difficult to get past & exclude from the discussion.

I don't know what else to say at this time.

Ourcrazymodern? · 04-04-2011, 04:37 PM

I know what I want to say, but it would be uncivil. The grease the internet provides removes inhibitions, not altering motives. Trusting the meanings you place in what you think doesn't hurt their receiver if you know how they feel. I've never met anyone who does that reliably. Some folks might be just plain mean.

Plan9, you go on & on about how little you understand. I don't believe you.

roachboy · 04-04-2011, 05:08 PM

i'm sure there are assholes who are authentically their asshole selves all the time and are even able to derive some illusion of therapeutic value from being assholes all the time. maybe there's a town they all live in, assholeville, where everyone is a self-regarding prick all the time but because that's the case all the time in the same way no-one notices it and they all talk about themselves as being nice polite people who live in a place that saddles them with a reputation but at least property taxes are not extortionate: values are low because people hesitate to buy property from the assholes in assholeville. so there's an upside to everything and that's what makes america the fine place that it is.

zenda · 04-04-2011, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Is passive-aggressive politically-correct angst going the way of the dinosaurs and being replaced by right-here-right-now in-your-face vulgarity?

Political correctness and vulgarity can both be ways of avoiding issues. I do not so much see replacement as two sides of the same body-bag zip. I am designing a form of right-here-right-now in-your-face civility.

This is a most interesting time for me to consider this question, for, elsewhere, I have recently begun a project of taking apart two well-established [8 years] power factions, each of whom equates its own incivility as being 'straight forward', and the other's incivility as the reason why there is strife in the first place. Each claims its own incivility as 'what it has been pushed to', and the other's as evidence of basic bad-blood, low classless, untrustworthiness etc. The attitude of each is, "We didn't do it, and the other guys did it first; they did it because they are low; we did it because they pulled us down". Also. "My freedom of speech means that I can say what I like. If you say you don't like it, it's your problem and I can tell you to f-off. I can even require you to shut up because You are trying to stop My Freedom of speech".

My present position: Initially, an incivility - oath or hate/disapproval statement MAY WELL BE the first, or even only expression after prior bottling or suffering; an explosion of emotion in addition to or instead of the content of the issue. IMO, it is an emergency signal to 'bring on' the machinery of reason. If held on to, incivility creates glitches in the process of resolution. Unfortunately, incivility may have other functions than 'not-yet-explored expression of feeling'. It can be used as a tool to block opposing or different messages, or to intimidate the bearers, either 'once off' or as an 'I'm-so-hard' always-on force-field to make others walk on eggshells.

When questioned, some are happy to discover they have been doing it as a habit they don't need any more; others do not like the torch light. For the next few months I will explore what happens to this group as they get deprived of their long run of UNquestioned incivility, and will report back.

Ourcrazymodern? · 04-04-2011, 07:11 PM

I won't take that as permission to say whatever I might wish. I will, however, take it as permission to say this: People who despise their others so unconsciously that they define them as such are making their own damn mistakes.

ASU2003 · 04-06-2011, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EventHorizon

microwave the server (wherever it is) that hosts 4chan. i realize that there are other sources responsible for the growing population of fucktards but that monumental institution needs to be shut down. if the earth right now is Rome, 4chan is the mob controlling it calling for ever more shocking evidence of unspeakable acts.

its an insult to everything that we have achieved as humans to allow our emotions rule our lives. anyone can give into being a slightly elevated cro-magnon man with a computer. i just wish that the same species that invented space travel on our planet would stop valuing extreme outward emotional expression

There isn't anything wrong with 4Chan. It can't be stopped by nuking one server. And they don't even have the worst comments on the Internet by a long shot.

And if 4Chan/Anonymous/WikiLeaks is keeping people honest by exposing their secrets, well, as long as the secrets don't hurt anybody... But there should be a way to have a 'secret' or 'top secret' level court case, where wrong-doers can be held accountable, yet what they did doesn't get put into the public record.

EventHorizon · 04-06-2011, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASU2003

as long as the secrets don't hurt anybody... But there should be a way to have a 'secret' or 'top secret' level court case, where wrong-doers can be held accountable, yet what they did doesn't get put into the public record.

things are generally kept secret because they have the potential to hurt people if they're not kept properly right? why bother having secret/top secret court cases? if the judge is going to dish out a punishment it should go out on public record.

if there is one "incivility" i will defend its the poor treatment of convicted prisoners. i dont think there should be such a term as "cruel and unusual" punishment. punishment is supposed to be a negative reinforcement of what not to do. i dont exactly remember how the argument was phrased in the book "Starship Troopers" (which is NOTHING like the movie) but it made a good argument about how criminals should be humiliated for what they did. i think that would overall be an excellent deterrent to crime which would ultimately bring about a more civil society. but thats just my opinion

ASU2003 · 04-08-2011, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EventHorizon

things are generally kept secret because they have the potential to hurt people if they're not kept properly right? why bother having secret/top secret court cases? if the judge is going to dish out a punishment it should go out on public record.

Yes, they are secret because they were deemed to be able to legitimately hurt people, harm relations, or allow access to tech know-how and specs. There are probably other valid reasons too.

The reason to have top secret court cases made up of jurors with security clearances is to make sure that no one is using 'Classified' documents as a way to cover up their crimes. Any classified file if pretty secure to begin with, if it gets released can be tracked back to the person, and the whistle blower gets a few years in federal prison for exposing the story.

The public can get a redacted version of the verdict.

dksuddeth · 04-09-2011, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Yeah, I don't think I'll be surprised at how low the bar could go, especially in America. However, there are indications that the bar in Canada has dropped as well. But still, no comparison really.

I think 2012 is going to be entertaining, if not depressing. Maybe both.

and then some. incivility and mob mentality are about to be given a whole new definition come 2012.

Baraka_Guru · 04-09-2011, 08:08 AM

Yeah, it seems centrism in North America is at risk. It seems to coincide with the risks faced by the middle class.

Stephen Harper is rolling out his own brand of incivility on his campaign trail, and while it should suggest that it would blow up in his face, he just might win himself a majority. This despite the fact that his party just a few weeks ago was voted out of office for being found in contempt of parliament.

It's really weird. Harper has a track record of leading the longest minority government in the history of Canada, and despite his antidemocratic politicking, he still polls strongly. This leads me to suspect that there is a wave of conservatism in North America influenced by the rhetoric of the likes of Tea Partiers, which seems quite in vogue during a recession---especially one of this magnitude.

Canada has been relatively spared from it, but that hasn't stopped the conservative sentiment on all levels of government (read: Toronto). Yet, there is still hope: much of the Canadian political system consists of liberal and social democratic politics. They just seem to be down, yet not out. It won't be the first time Canada has had a majority conservative government.

South of the border, however, it seems more dire. When the most shouty (i.e. uncivil) of commentary labels centrism as socialism, there's a problem. When you have a strong conservative base in a two-party system that views economic policies common to a mixed system (yet extreme in measure as a response to extreme circumstances) as "the road to ruin," you kind of have to wonder whether the herd mentality can remain civil enough to stick to the polls and abide by the democratic process.

Crazy times. I hope the economy keeps on track to recovery; that way, the Tea Partiers and their sympathizers will fade into irrelevance if not oblivion.

filtherton · 04-09-2011, 08:41 AM

Incivility has its uses. So do tact, compassion and gentleness.

Problems arise when incivility becomes a conduit by which rational responses are shut out in favor of emotional responses. You end up with political factions which don't view each other as human beings with legitimate concerns, but as mindless others, driven by short-sighted compulsion to ruin everything.

So you see people talk about "libs" or "conservatives" or "republithugs" or "demojerks" or "statists" (substitute your favorite vaguely to overtly pejorative term).

Incivility tends to encourage incivility, which then tends to make things get worse when problem solving is the actual goal. Because when you think someone has done you wrong, you might tend to be more interested in doing them wrong or protecting yourself from further wrongdoing than actually trying to be productive.

Hence, the powers that be in this country (you know, the ones with the money and the power) spend vast amounts of money convincing us that the people we disagree with have done us wrong. That way we'll spend so much time hating on each other that we'll never get around to realizing that the people who have actually done us wrong are the ones with all the power and resources. It's not the people who've benefited disproportionately from the status quo who have done us wrong, it's the impoverished, exploited immigrants or those urban liberals. It's not the "we're to spineless to not be complicit in the destruction of this country, oh and by the way, never mind that we're just as beholden to big business as the other guys" democratic party that's the problem, it's those ignorant old tea partiers.

And then, regardless of whether any incivility existed initially, mass quantities of incivility are produced as a response to perceived incivility and things get worse.

chinese crested · 04-19-2011, 07:40 AM

Personaly, I would never dream of lowering my own standards to those of a politician or ass hole of a similar ilk. As to secrets in court cases - we have been having that with the Chilcott enquiry - which everyone believed to be an exercise in lying and whitewashing anyway before it even started. Every child who has died in the gulf or Afghanistan - do their families not deserve the decency of the truth? If your child died, or your parent - would you not want to know the truth so that you can come to terms with the reality rather than grasp whisps of 'what ifs' as they fly through the air.
I am one of those fools who tries to help people - but primarily animals - if you dont look after the people, who will look after their pets - so we go with tact and kindness. I do find, certainly have done recently, that poor manners and vile behaviour is not just the stock of the young. Used to tell my children, good manners cost nothing, but bad manners can cost you a lot.
I know where a rareity goes walking - an elderly gentleman who tips his hat to ladies as he passes with a cheery good morning. Somehow, its sweet and touching - and very old school.

---------- Post added at 07:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 AM ----------

YouTube - Due South: The lost episode (2002)

Didnt we all love this gentleman?

EventHorizon · 04-19-2011, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chinese crested

Personaly, I would never dream of lowering my own standards to those of a politician or ass hole of a similar ilk.

isn't that lacking a little bit in civility right there? as unfortunate as it is that the world of politics has no room for idealists, it doesn't mean that you can group every legislator, justice, presidential staff, in both federal and state governments into one group of "assholes". its because of this belief that becoming a representative for people who elect you has become a dirty job. i'm grateful that there are people higher up in the food chain making sure that my street stays paved, the streetlights stay on, and the fourth of july fireworks happen every time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chinese crested

As to secrets in court cases - we have been having that with the Chilcott enquiry - which everyone believed to be an exercise in lying and whitewashing anyway before it even started.

take it to Tilted Paranoia

Quote:

Originally Posted by chinese crested

Every child who has died in the gulf or Afghanistan - do their families not deserve the decency of the truth? If your child died, or your parent - would you not want to know the truth so that you can come to terms with the reality rather than grasp whisps of 'what ifs' as they fly through the air.

the truth is that people die one way or another and violence is one of the myriad ways that people find the end of their rope. there is no 'why', shit happens

chinese crested · 04-19-2011, 02:34 PM

Event. Local politics - too many masons. No politicians leave office without being much better off - except perhaps those in prison - but even there Archer the liar made money. Todays paper decribes how iraqs oil was divided up amongst oil campanies who were worried that they might not get contracts - under the freedom of information act, minutes of meetings between Baroness Symons and major companies have been made public - this was the year before the invasion in march 03. This gives more proof to the lies made by Blair over the whole invasion. Every time a son comes home in a box, dont you think the families have a right to honesty? The Reuters reporters shot in Afghanistan - didnt their families deserve the truth? I guess your 'shit happens' remark would cover the fact their sons are dead - but dont those troops deserve to know the truth about what they are dying for?
I would watch pm question time on tv, and televised politics live from the house of commons - if there were some way of rigging lie detectors with electric stun collars for dogs - st Vitas dance all over the place - dont know if the national grid could take it though.

---------- Post added at 02:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:28 PM ----------

'if there is one "incivility" i will defend its the poor treatment of convicted prisoners.'
So your views on the treatment of Bradley Manning, what are they Event? Should he not have civil rights, should he not have the right to a fair trial and to bail whilst he is awaiting it? Should he not have fair and humane treatment? Is it not innocent untill proved guilty?

EventHorizon · 04-19-2011, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chinese crested

'if there is one "incivility" i will defend its the poor treatment of convicted prisoners.'
So your views on the treatment of Bradley Manning, what are they Event? Should he not have civil rights, should he not have the right to a fair trial and to bail whilst he is awaiting it? Should he not have fair and humane treatment? Is it not innocent untill proved guilty?

convicted means after the trial which means a right to an attorney and a speedy trial buy a jury of his peers. being convicted of a crime IM(H for humble)O should not be a pleasurable experience. inhumane treatment as a punishment is very effective in modifying behavior. Read some About Behaviorism by B. F. Skinner.

as for the rest of your arguments they seem eerily similar to another member here "longliveusa" who i ended up spinning my wheels with so i'll just leave you to your opinions if you leave me to mine

Ourcrazymodern? · 04-19-2011, 04:39 PM

HI-HO for incivlity! Sometimes it works out better for all concerned...like in politics.

Random Hair · 04-20-2011, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EventHorizon

convicted means after the trial which means a right to an attorney and a speedy trial buy a jury of his peers. being convicted of a crime IM(H for humble)O should not be a pleasurable experience. inhumane treatment as a punishment is very effective in modifying behavior. Read some About Behaviorism by B. F. Skinner.

as for the rest of your arguments they seem eerily similar to another member here "longliveusa" who i ended up spinning my wheels with so i'll just leave you to your opinions if you leave me to mine

How about unsafe convictions? Like the Guilford 4? Inhumane treatment was used to modify behaviour very effectively, by torturing out a false confession. So in the case a mischarge of justice, you would be happy to inflict, in your own words, inhumane treatment? Basically torturing innocent people?
Nice.

So tell me... in these little man-on-men, S&M prison fantasies you have, are you the Sub or the Dom? Are you in the naked dog pile, or standing at the side with your thumbs up while a friend takes a photo?

Prison shouldn’t be a nice experience, but I think we should draw the line at the infliction of Grievous Bodily Harm, which as I understand it is a convictable offence.

I’m not surprised you end up “spinning your wheels”, is there a naked convict strapped to it?

PS while you are entitled to your opinion, if you wish to express it in a public forum you should be prepared to defend it.

chinese crested · 04-20-2011, 10:37 AM

Quite so Random, we are all entitled to expess our opinions. The spies do not like being spied upon do they. I giggled myself silly when I heard the shocking secret that USA thought Prince Andrew was, well, less than exemplory as a trade ambassador. I was waiting for the shocking revelation that they thought Edward might be inclined to sit on Elton Johns side of the church, but none seemed to think that - as far as we know so far. Hopefully good news today that Bradley is being moved. Scarey that, although he has not even had a trial, some politicians were calling for a lynching.
'you know who else got crazy at the microphone and made impassioned speeches?
Adolf fucking Hitler' - I am sure he had his nicer days. I think mother Therasa made impassioned speaches on occassion, as did Ghandi, and the Dalai Lama has given impassioned comments about freeing Tibet - a comment from a Budhist is like a shout from say Gerry Adams - who would probably fit on the Hitler side of the church as he was a ranting instigator to most.

EventHorizon · 04-20-2011, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random Hair

How about unsafe convictions? Like the Guilford 4? Inhumane treatment was used to modify behaviour very effectively, by torturing out a false confession. So in the case a mischarge of justice, you would be happy to inflict, in your own words, inhumane treatment? Basically torturing innocent people?
Nice.

why not just give everyone in prison lollypops and goose-down pillows on the off chance that one of them is innocent? why bother having prisons? one of them might be innocent so just to be safe, lets open the doors and turn all of them free. (please catch the sarcasm)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random Hair

So tell me... in these little man-on-men, S&M prison fantasies you have, are you the Sub or the Dom? Are you in the naked dog pile, or standing at the side with your thumbs up while a friend takes a photo?

uhhh... what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random Hair

Prison shouldn’t be a nice experience, but I think we should draw the line at the infliction of Grievous Bodily Harm, which as I understand it is a convictable offence.

i agree with you here. i'm not saying that inmates should be killed by their guards, but prison needs to be a place that people are afraid of going back to

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random Hair

I’m not surprised you end up “spinning your wheels”, is there a naked convict strapped to it?

...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random Hair

PS while you are entitled to your opinion, if you wish to express it in a public forum you should be prepared to defend it.

this isn't a letter, you don't need to Post Script anything. Also, i enjoy defending my position, but once the topic starts veering towards masonic conspiracies and 'big corporation' discussions, i disengage because thats too much paranoia for my tastes.

chinese crested · 04-20-2011, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random Hair
Prison shouldn’t be a nice experience, but I think we should draw the line at the infliction of Grievous Bodily Harm, which as I understand it is a convictable offence.

[quote]

Quote:

i agree with you here. i'm not saying that inmates should be killed by their guards, but prison needs to be a place that people are afraid of going back to

Yeah - no one wants to go back on the water boarding ride do they.

Quote:

So tell me... in these little man-on-men, S&M prison fantasies you have, are you the Sub or the Dom? Are you in the naked dog pile, or standing at the side with your thumbs up while a friend takes a photo?

I would say the outfit with the peaky cap, not the one with the arrows on. I think you need to explain yourself more clearly for your target audience - although I quite understand where you are coming from. Whole new meaning to 'the turn of the screw'.
Randomly Wilde.

Random Hair · 04-20-2011, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EventHorizon

why not just give everyone in prison lollypops and goose-down pillows on the off chance that one of them is innocent? why bother having prisons? one of them might be innocent so just to be safe, lets open the doors and turn all of them free. (please catch the sarcasm).

Man? Really? Wow!
Saying you should treat someone humanly doesn't mean rewarding them. You can punish someone without being inhumane. Your saying treat them as sub-human on the grounds they probably are guilty, to inflict torture and miss treatment. Being humane would be providing them with what they need to survive and become rehabilitated. Se the US prison is brutal, it turns minor criminals into major ones, that’s why 1% of the entire US population is in prison. However I would agree that UK prisons are to light at times, they don’t need a TV in there room to meet their basic human rights, just clean bedding food, outside contact and not to receive a beating, which would be the inhumane punishment you are mentioning as a good thing. Such treatment causes aggression in individuals that will eventually need to be released.

We need a happy medium that other country’s seem to have reached. I’m not sure it’s sarcasm you’re throwing about. Maybe something else beginning with “S”... something “idity” perhaps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EventHorizon

uhhh... what?

Sorry, did that go over your head?

Quote:

Originally Posted by EventHorizon

i agree with you here. i'm not saying that inmates should be killed by their guards, but prison needs to be a place that people are afraid of going back to.

No, your saying they should be abused by them. You can be afraid without the possibility of pain and inhuman treatment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EventHorizon

this isn't a letter, you don't need to Post Script anything. Also, i enjoy defending my position, but once the topic starts veering towards masonic conspiracies and 'big corporation' discussions, i disengage because thats too much paranoia for my tastes.

You may wish to work on that.
What does this have to do with masons? I'll answer that for you to save time... Nothing, other than the inherent corruption. Something I know about first hand, I know a few Mansions, and even they admit that they cover up for each other. It’s what we call the “old boys club” when I use to work for the MoD. I could even come up with a few cases where they have perverted the course of justice if you would like.

Now look up. See that above you? That's the ether the ceiling or the sky, right? Now some were above that is the level of conversation.
Maybe you should spend just a little more time thinking about your argument, alone with the definition of inhumane treatment.
Try amnesty for a start, then maybe look into prisons around the world, try to define what you would consider a good prison system. We can go on from there if you like.

EventHorizon · 04-20-2011, 01:15 PM

I'm actually a massive S&M freak who loves to be both the sub and the dom whenever i get time away from my masonic plans to overthrow the government with the help of my scaly friends in the NWO and the little green men orbiting our planet. a few of you have figured out how to block our mind readers though

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/...il_Hat_Cat.jpg

to those few i say "well done" but the corporate spies we've hired to infiltrate every government around the world will soon take power and we'll outlaw tin foil around the world if it means total domination. better lube up boys! here come the probes (with the exception of chuck norris). oh and good catch on me loving torture, i thought i was sly enough, and i would've gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you rascal kids and that dog!

Ourcrazymodern? · 04-20-2011, 01:38 PM

You'll never forget the pony, will you?

Plan9 is >bored. He'll remember his manners in a minute.

Plan9 · 04-20-2011, 08:27 PM

What the fuck are you talking about, OCM?

chinese crested · 04-20-2011, 10:34 PM

Wow. A Dog read a post and worked out that someone advocating torture was into S & M. Thats one smart dog. Is it smarter than the average bear? And I mean bear not bare as in a pile of naked men with hoods on in front of one with a hard on. Give that dog a biscuit - they do say you cant lie to a dog, because they read more into the conversation than just words.

04-04-2011, 02:45 AM	#2 (permalink)
GreyWolf Sober Location: Eastern Canada	BULLSHIT!!! This article confuses INTOLERANCE and INCIVILITY. Intolerance is not necessarily bad. Not tolerating stoning of women (or anyone) is perfectly justified. Calling a person's faith savagery to his face is incivility. You can express your disgust and non-acceptance of another's religion, political stance, choice of sports teams or even footwear in very vehement and forthright terms WITHOUT being impolite about it. That's how mature, intelligent humans do it. They don't yell invectives, they speak plainly, politely, and with the intent of getting the message across without causing the discussion to degenerate into infantile name calling or cursing such as this article praises. Oh, and the BULLSHIT was meant as irony, if you didn't get it. __________________ *The secret to great marksmanship is deciding what the target was AFTER you've shot.*

04-04-2011, 03:29 AM	#3 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Greywolf, I fail to see how this tirade is confusing intolerance and incivility using the examples provided. Care to set me straight? Use small words. ... Just in case there is any question about the seriousness of the make-a-point antics in this article: It's satire. Carry on. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 04-04-2011 at 06:33 AM..

04-04-2011, 06:28 AM	#6 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	EventHorizon, DID YOU MEAN: Satire ? That and I'm trying to figure out why you work to put 4Chan (whatever the fuck that is) into 18% of your posts. Aside from being a groupthink for chumps and hosting illegal pornography, something tells me 4Chan isn't North Korea. ... Alright, since my three direction lines in the OP aren't doing the job, lemme rephrase these questions so they're better understood: "In your personal experience, has society become less and less courteous and more and more curt or was it just always this way? Is passive-aggressive politically-correct angst going the way of the dinosaurs and being replaced by right-here-right-now in-your-face vulgarity?" Better? __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 04-04-2011 at 06:32 AM..

04-04-2011, 06:48 AM	#8 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	The medium is the message. As the article implies, the Age of the Internet has led to a communication standard that allows us to express ourselves in ways that would otherwise make for awkward situations. The shift in political discourse is shaped by print, television, radio, and the Internet, and they are all interconnected and are essentially crossing over one another. The Internet is a medium of seemingly limitless possibilities and connections. There is mainstream and there is "the underground" and there is the underbelly. Before the Internet, all we had were one-way media or two-way communication via telephone, in-person meetings, or handwritten letters. If there is indeed a shift in civility, I'm sure much of the cause can be tied into the Internet itself. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

04-04-2011, 07:56 AM	#9 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	incivility? they think we're currently being uncivil? they ain't seen nothing yet. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

04-04-2011, 08:26 AM	#10 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Has society become less courteous? Absolutely. And I think it can be tied to many factors including a generation growing up with the internet. But also intellectual laziness, cynicism and (let me turn this around on the author of the OP article) the assumption that we are all 'special snowflakes.' A choice between passive-aggressive angst and in-your-face vulgarity? I, um, choose neither. And I don't see them as being representative of anything but a very narrow, self-serving slice of reality. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

04-04-2011, 08:45 AM	#11 (permalink)
StanT © Location: Colorado	It depends on the context. I'm not exactly known for my tact, but I'm not hostile about it, just blunt. It seems we have a new national pastime of polarizing and provoking people just to see what happens. I've walked away from the majority of the web sites, talk shows, and news sources that I used to frequent. I'm fine with intelligent disagreement; but provocation for the sake of provocation isn't enlightening or entertaining to me.

04-04-2011, 04:37 PM	#17 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	I know what I want to say, but it would be uncivil. The grease the internet provides removes inhibitions, not altering motives. Trusting the meanings you place in what you think doesn't hurt their receiver if you know how they feel. I've never met anyone who does that reliably. Some folks might be just plain mean. Plan9, you go on & on about how little you understand. I don't believe you. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

04-04-2011, 05:08 PM	#18 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i'm sure there are assholes who are authentically their asshole selves all the time and are even able to derive some illusion of therapeutic value from being assholes all the time. maybe there's a town they all live in, assholeville, where everyone is a self-regarding prick all the time but because that's the case all the time in the same way no-one notices it and they all talk about themselves as being nice polite people who live in a place that saddles them with a reputation but at least property taxes are not extortionate: values are low because people hesitate to buy property from the assholes in assholeville. so there's an upside to everything and that's what makes america the fine place that it is. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 04-04-2011 at 05:11 PM..

04-04-2011, 07:11 PM	#20 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	I won't take that as permission to say whatever I might wish. I will, however, take it as permission to say this: People who despise their others so unconsciously that they define them as such are making their own damn mistakes. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

04-09-2011, 08:08 AM	#25 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Yeah, it seems centrism in North America is at risk. It seems to coincide with the risks faced by the middle class. Stephen Harper is rolling out his own brand of incivility on his campaign trail, and while it should suggest that it would blow up in his face, he just might win himself a majority. This despite the fact that his party just a few weeks ago was voted out of office for being found in contempt of parliament. It's really weird. Harper has a track record of leading the longest minority government in the history of Canada, and despite his antidemocratic politicking, he still polls strongly. This leads me to suspect that there is a wave of conservatism in North America influenced by the rhetoric of the likes of Tea Partiers, which seems quite in vogue during a recession---especially one of this magnitude. Canada has been relatively spared from it, but that hasn't stopped the conservative sentiment on all levels of government (read: Toronto). Yet, there is still hope: much of the Canadian political system consists of liberal and social democratic politics. They just seem to be down, yet not out. It won't be the first time Canada has had a majority conservative government. South of the border, however, it seems more dire. When the most shouty (i.e. uncivil) of commentary labels centrism as socialism, there's a problem. When you have a strong conservative base in a two-party system that views economic policies common to a mixed system (yet extreme in measure as a response to extreme circumstances) as "the road to ruin," you kind of have to wonder whether the herd mentality can remain civil enough to stick to the polls and abide by the democratic process. Crazy times. I hope the economy keeps on track to recovery; that way, the Tea Partiers and their sympathizers will fade into irrelevance if not oblivion. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

04-09-2011, 08:41 AM	#26 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Incivility has its uses. So do tact, compassion and gentleness. Problems arise when incivility becomes a conduit by which rational responses are shut out in favor of emotional responses. You end up with political factions which don't view each other as human beings with legitimate concerns, but as mindless others, driven by short-sighted compulsion to ruin everything. So you see people talk about "libs" or "conservatives" or "republithugs" or "demojerks" or "statists" (substitute your favorite vaguely to overtly pejorative term). Incivility tends to encourage incivility, which then tends to make things get worse when problem solving is the actual goal. Because when you think someone has done you wrong, you might tend to be more interested in doing them wrong or protecting yourself from further wrongdoing than actually trying to be productive. Hence, the powers that be in this country (you know, the ones with the money and the power) spend vast amounts of money convincing us that the people we disagree with have done us wrong. That way we'll spend so much time hating on each other that we'll never get around to realizing that the people who have actually done us wrong are the ones with all the power and resources. It's not the people who've benefited disproportionately from the status quo who have done us wrong, it's the impoverished, exploited immigrants or those urban liberals. It's not the "we're to spineless to not be complicit in the destruction of this country, oh and by the way, never mind that we're just as beholden to big business as the other guys" democratic party that's the problem, it's those ignorant old tea partiers. And then, regardless of whether any incivility existed initially, mass quantities of incivility are produced as a response to perceived incivility and things get worse.

04-19-2011, 02:34 PM	#29 (permalink)
chinese crested Insane Location: hampshire	Event. Local politics - too many masons. No politicians leave office without being much better off - except perhaps those in prison - but even there Archer the liar made money. Todays paper decribes how iraqs oil was divided up amongst oil campanies who were worried that they might not get contracts - under the freedom of information act, minutes of meetings between Baroness Symons and major companies have been made public - this was the year before the invasion in march 03. This gives more proof to the lies made by Blair over the whole invasion. Every time a son comes home in a box, dont you think the families have a right to honesty? The Reuters reporters shot in Afghanistan - didnt their families deserve the truth? I guess your 'shit happens' remark would cover the fact their sons are dead - but dont those troops deserve to know the truth about what they are dying for? I would watch pm question time on tv, and televised politics live from the house of commons - if there were some way of rigging lie detectors with electric stun collars for dogs - st Vitas dance all over the place - dont know if the national grid could take it though. ---------- Post added at 02:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:28 PM ---------- 'if there is one "incivility" i will defend its the poor treatment of convicted prisoners.' So your views on the treatment of Bradley Manning, what are they Event? Should he not have civil rights, should he not have the right to a fair trial and to bail whilst he is awaiting it? Should he not have fair and humane treatment? Is it not innocent untill proved guilty?

04-19-2011, 04:39 PM	#31 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	HI-HO for incivlity! Sometimes it works out better for all concerned...like in politics. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT Last edited by Ourcrazymodern?; 04-19-2011 at 04:41 PM..

04-20-2011, 10:37 AM	#33 (permalink)
chinese crested Insane Location: hampshire	Quite so Random, we are all entitled to expess our opinions. The spies do not like being spied upon do they. I giggled myself silly when I heard the shocking secret that USA thought Prince Andrew was, well, less than exemplory as a trade ambassador. I was waiting for the shocking revelation that they thought Edward might be inclined to sit on Elton Johns side of the church, but none seemed to think that - as far as we know so far. Hopefully good news today that Bradley is being moved. Scarey that, although he has not even had a trial, some politicians were calling for a lynching. 'you know who else got crazy at the microphone and made impassioned speeches? Adolf fucking Hitler' - I am sure he had his nicer days. I think mother Therasa made impassioned speaches on occassion, as did Ghandi, and the Dalai Lama has given impassioned comments about freeing Tibet - a comment from a Budhist is like a shout from say Gerry Adams - who would probably fit on the Hitler side of the church as he was a ranting instigator to most.

04-20-2011, 01:38 PM	#38 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	You'll never forget the pony, will you? Plan9 is >bored. He'll remember his manners in a minute. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

04-20-2011, 08:27 PM	#39 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	What the fuck are you talking about, OCM? __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

04-20-2011, 10:34 PM	#40 (permalink)
chinese crested Insane Location: hampshire	Wow. A Dog read a post and worked out that someone advocating torture was into S & M. Thats one smart dog. Is it smarter than the average bear? And I mean bear not bare as in a pile of naked men with hoods on in front of one with a hard on. Give that dog a biscuit - they do say you cant lie to a dog, because they read more into the conversation than just words.