Cynthetiq

I find this interesting, but impotent. It only addresses motion pictures and TV, not music and not ebooks, not games and applications.

I still don't think that I would be behind such a thing so I don't think I would sign it. As long as there is shovelware out there and overpriced digital assets, I probably will look for viable alternatives.

What about you?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

levite

I agree that it needs broadening, especially considering that e-books are stupendously, outrageously, gougingly overpriced. And I also have to say that I think the proposed price proportions for movies and TV they offer here are still far too high.

I don't mind stipulating that purchase price should not exceed the price of a ticket at the cinema. But rentals not to exceed 1/3 of cinema ticket price?! That's larceny. Around these parts, a movie ticket to a dump theater costs around $9; tickets to a really excellent theater can go as high as $15. There is no way I am saying it's okay for rentals to max out between $3-5.

Plus, I'm sorry, but TV costs way, way less to make than movies, and if it's a show one likes, one is paying for it weekly or daily instead of once. Why should TV shows max out at the same level as movie rentals? I think it ought to be a buck a show flat out, or seventy-five cents a show if purchasing the full season.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Baraka_Guru

I find it hard to accept this universally considering that the prices for ebooks are widely variable. I've seen anywhere from $0.99 to $14.99.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cynthetiq

I've been finding a number that are $50 to $200, but those are targeted to the business person, not the normal consumer. THOSE are totally price gouging. My god the hardcover MSRP for $99, the kindle version is only $50. I could T&E it but what a waste if it's a crap book. I would have had to go to the research library here in NYC to if I wanted to look at it. I am reading it right now and did not pay any of those prices, I found it as a used book for around $10 including shipping. So the idea that the digital version of the book, seems to never have a used copy. I can't ever sell a used ebook and release my license to the book and transfer ownership to another individual.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Baraka_Guru

Yeah licensing transfer is another matter.

However, I think my own concern (as one who works in the publishing industry) is that many consider the printing and distribution of physical books to be the lion's share of the cost of book production. It's not.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cynthetiq

I think I used to think that long ago, but after being at a publishing house for almost 4 years now, I know it is not the case. I don't know how music works and if it work in the same manner, but many books never earn out their advances and that's a win for the author but a total loss to the publisher.

I do wish that this manifest went a little further addressing the ability to transfer the license from one individual to another for maybe a cut of the sell price.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Zweiblumen

I think I read somewhere that selling used books were against the copyright (in Europe).
Is that wrong then if Amazon is selling used books ?

ZB

__________________
Sodomy non sapiens. : I'm buggered if I know

Baraka_Guru

Well, the issue is relatively simple in summary but difficult in practice.

The artists need to get paid.
The publishers need to get paid.
The distributors need to get paid.
The marketers need to get paid.

The consumer must get value.
The consumer must get reasonable flexibility with what they've purchased.
The consumer must have choice.
The consumer must have alternatives.

It sounds easy, but the issue is the very nature of digital products. They take virtually no work or time to reproduce once there is a master file. So what we have is a spectrum that revolves around that master file. On one side, you have the time, energy, and dedication that goes into making it, selecting it, refining it, and bringing it to the marketplace. On the other side, you have the money, time, and energy spent on consuming the product, and the expectations of usage in all aspects of owning the rights to it.

It shouldn't be a tug of war, but it is. Artists, producers, etc., control the product to ensure that they get paid for their labour and that there are no free rides unless they permit it. Consumers don't want to be told how to use what they've paid for.

So what gives?

Do producers know what they're really creating anymore? Do consumers know what they're really consuming anymore?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cynthetiq

Zb I had to look that up because it is so intriguing. Here's what I found. I don't know if it is active/ratified. I assume not.

BG, I agree. I do find it a bit funny to look at the digital library and see that there are 2 ebook copies and a 30 person wait. But I get it, I do.

I really have read an ebook on my computer, smartphone, and ebook reader. I think the Amazon Read Anywhere model is a great model to emulate. It only cost them the development costs for the application as you don't need to a kindle to participate.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

animosity

I believe it is always morally wrong to steal, overpriced or not. That being said, I believe people would be much more likely to pay for media content if it was more reasonably priced and easily accessible in digital format.
It is frustrating to buy an ebook that cost the same or more than the physical copy. I usually just end up not buying it... and no one wins.

Going back to what BG said about the cost of physical media production.
Media is not really a tangible product to begin with. The tangible product is a delivery system. Books, CDs, DVDs, etc are systems of distribution that allow the exchange of data from the creator to the consumer. The delivery of this data is a small portion of the total cost.
When the delivery system is free/paid to another provider(internet) it is easy for people to forget(willfully or not) that the product is what their eyes see and ears hear.

Cynthetiq

Then you are not understanding the actual costs for the delivery system. To deliver an ebook, digital download, or even on demand movie/TV show, there is an infrastructure that has to be built, maintained, and constantly upgraded.

When I worked on the delivery system for Viacom which was 14Pb about 5 years ago with at least 2 redundant backup locations, it was a pretty penny to be spent. Not only do you spend for the hardware, but software to do conversions for multiple formats, connectivity, and some sort of rights and royalty management. One top of that, you still need specialized people who can maintain and operate that infrastructure. These people don't get paid minimum wage like those people who stock bookshelves and man cash registers. Those things cost and have tangible impact to that "deliverable" that you so want.

Take note that most often, a digital asset gets the author a 50% revenue share more often than not, whereas a physical book may only get them maxium 15%.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Baraka_Guru

Let me tell you.... The formatting of ebooks can vary from easy to "do over."

Easy = Save as PDF

Do over = Code the entire book in XML

Considering there are multiple formats [PDF, ePub, XML, Mobipocket, etc.] publishers have their work cut out for them just to make ebooks available...and with no guarantee what's happening with them in the market in terms of sales and distribution.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cynthetiq

OMG, I can't tell you about the reformatting challenges. NOT the same as digital movie format conversion from MP4 to AVI to FLV.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

animosity

I think you misunderstood my point. Perhaps I did not put it together properly.
I was stating that people are not able to see the cost of the delivery system in digital media and thus feel cheated when the prices are only marginally reduced[if at all] from that of physical media.

I am familiar with the costs associated with digital data, as I am sometimes part of the embedded cost. Most people, however, are not aware(or just do not care) that there is a cost associated with delivering the media in digital form. It is easy to just think, "I want it, therefore it is"

Cynthetiq

Fair enough that I may have misinterpreted. But to be fair, you said that for you when you stated I agree to not pay more for something just because it is a different technology. I like when it is fair and equal. When I had a 2400 baud modem it was priced higher for access to systems than a 300/1200 because i could get the data so much faster that I must be consuming more.

I wouldn't pay more for an ebook than I would for a pulp book from the MSRP standpoint. I don't expect to pay the same as a heavily discounted or overstock book.

So lets go with the SAME price. Why aren't you buying it then?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

StanT

On the music side of things, I want to support the artists that make the music I enjoy. I realize that record companies, distribution, etc need to be paid, as well. What I resent, is paying for the same piece of music, over and over.

I'm an old fart, I grew up listening to vinyl. In some cases, I've bought a 45 and liked it enough to by the full album. I skipped 8 tracks, but bought many of them again on cassette and again on cd. Many of these have been remastered and I really resent the idea of paying for the same music, yet again. I realize that media and remastering aren't free; but full price every stinking time is getting old.

Cynthetiq

Stan, an excellent point. I dislike that too. I also dislike the movies for doing the limited edition, special director's cut, Special 25th Anniversary edition, etc. I own like 4 copies of Reservoir Dogs and 3 copies of Star Wars Trilogy.

It would be nice to maybe get a discount on the transfer from one medium to another.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

jewels

I'd like to see a real cost analysis comparing both media. Paying the same price still seems way high.

I found this blog where one person did her own analysis a couple of years ago. Granted, her numbers for these romance novels are small potatoes when compared with the big houses and bestsellers, but it seems to account for everything and should translate similarly to the big time.

Smart Bitches, Trashy Books | The Cost of Self Publication, Ebook vs. Print: One Person’s Story

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Cynthetiq

excellent! thanks this will make a great read, and a good thing for me to try to gauge here at our shop.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Baraka_Guru

Yeah, quite interesting. The cost of ebook setup can be expensive if you account for all the formats you need to establish to hit the majority of the marketplace.

That aside, you see that her per-unit cost of printing is high ($12) due to POD pricing. Offset printing is less expensive, but you need to print in quantities of 500 or more in most cases.

What this tells me, generally, is that ebooks should probably be priced lower, but not necessarily drastically lower.

Her example of $5.99 for an ebook that in hardcover would cost $27.99 seems reasonable, especially when I've seen that albums cost as much as $8.99 or $9.99 on iTunes.

I think a reasonable price point for ebooks would be anywhere between $3.99 and $9.99. Below that would be essentially a bargain or at a discount, while above that would be overpriced or for special circumstances. I've seen ebooks priced at $12.99 or $14.99. I think that's high, but not completely unreasonable. If ebooks are charged the same as a hardcover book at $20+, I think that's insane.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Manic_Skafe

That manifesto is a bit long as my entire stance on the matter can be summed up in a single sentence:

- I will not continue to subsidize your increasingly wasteful and annoying refusal to accept the challenge of competing with Free.

Everyone needs to eat but I don't feel the least bit sorry for a group of industries that foolishly spurred the devaluation of their product and continue to force their customers to obtain their product via illegal means. There's too much good media and far too much money to be made for such an obstinate refusal to be seen as defensible.

__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

Baraka_Guru

The industries aren't forcing anyone to break the law. That's the main aspect of this manifesto that I have a problem with.

I imagine that many---if not most---people are stealing digital products because they can. Why pay for something when you can have it for free with only a minuscule risk of being caught and punished for it?

It might be easy for people to blame the "Big, Bad, Fat Cat Corporations" but what about the "Pirating Leechers"?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cynthetiq

An excellent observation BG. You are right, they aren't compelling them to do anything or take any action at all. If you don't like to then you don't buy the product. I don't like lots of media stuff, I don't consume it at all. But those that I like I should be buying.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Cynthetiq

Neil Gaiman puts it down with some interesting twist.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

The phrase "make me steal" makes me think of someone starving on the street stealing food just to keep from dying. I can see certain situations where one might be forced to steal. Music, movies and TV shows aren't on that list of situations.

If you're stealing media, something I have been guilty of in the past, you're a criminal. Even if the industries are deeply corrupt and exploitive and antiquated, theft is theft. If someone comes knocking because I downloaded some Sasha and John Digweed off Kazaa like 9 years ago, I'll pay the fine without fighting it (assuming it's not exorbitant).

Manic_Skafe

No, no one is being forced to steal anything. Semantic nonsense aside, it's hardly arguable that these industries, their failed practices and obstinate refusal to innovate and give their customers what they want will serve only to keep the spirit of piracy alive and well.

Yes, what's wrong is wrong. That's as obvious as it is uninteresting. Going forward from that, what is there to be done?

__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian