bagatelle

In my opinion ranks are important in military. In corporations, if they are taken seriously enough and there is certain responsibility that follows the rank.

How impressed are you by titles? Especially when some of them can be purchased.

In many forums I see ranks and titles given much thought and importance. New members aren't given ability to change their own ranks. Is it possible to ignore these features and let people define themselves in life in general?

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StanT

It depends on the context.

To the extent that job title = salary range, I care. When money isn't involved, I couldn't care less. Note the © for my title here, the board software won't accept nothing or a space.

The_Jazz

In general, I just ignore them. I've got a pretty impressive title at work, but it's pretty meaningless to me. That said, there are certain titles that you don't ignore, especially if you're trying to do business with that organization.

That includes TFP except under some very specific circumstances. If your title is "upright" that means that you might be a spammer, so if I don't recogize you, I'm going to make sure.

As far as ranks on the internet go, though, those are very handy tools when there are things that you want to keep from the general public. And we have lots of things that we don't want any asshole on the internet to be able to see.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Plan9

Saying that civilians have any clue about military rank function is like suggesting that dogs understand what it's like to wear pants.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

bagatelle

So, in that sense forum ranks are more like management tools for the forum owners.

I think it's pretty clear, that you have to take orders from higher ranked personnel.

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Plan9

Rank, by its lay definition, is a personnel management tool. You can't get anything done in a timely fashion using any kind of democratic process.

Everybody knows that.

...

Somebody manages tasks. Somebody manages people. And somebody does the grunt work. And that's almost always the hierarchy.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Ourcrazymodern?

Upright was satisfying, though undescriptive.
Crazy was appropriate.
Insane was inaccurate, but fun.
Tilted came soon enough as the elements worked their magic.

Then you choose your own. I'm curious about your objection to titles, bagatelle.

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

bagatelle

Well, I'm not everybody and I don't know everything. That's why I make silly posts.

In forums, I know, the title (or rank) is tied to your post count. Isn't it here? I know there are ranks, forum staff can give and they could be seen as negative ranks, since these rank holders may have limited access to forums and features.

The ability to change your own rank is used as a reward of sorts for good or long membership. I think in a forum it's something to look forward to when posting regularly. Otherwise the mere post count tells nothing about the person really.

In general I am wary about labels given to people, even in form of nicknames. Maybe it's just my attitude about English language, I can't be sure when someone is insulted. I don't think I EVER call people names, unless I know them very well.

I was offended myself, when taking part years ago in one forum, which had a subforum with pretty much autonomy to run it. The subforum was inhabited by members, who had been there longer than me, yet none of them had any owner relationship to the forums, they were regular members like me, just happened to be there already.

So, I didn't understand that forums work as communities, it was not given that I could come there and post freely, unless I first had fallen to the right place in the forum hierarchy. They had their leading characters, one woman in particular had named the place one sort of kingdom, a fairy tale castle represented their imaginery abode, she controlled the hierarchy by giving titles to members.

Her rank was princess of that place, there was a queen, ladies, knights and king even. These weren't actual ranks, since these members were sort of playing a role game, none of them were moderators. Just how they (or some of them) called each other. So, I got the wench title, lol. I had a poor dictionary in use then and the only translation I got was 'slut'. Anyway, even being compared to 'maid' as a wench showed me my place: which was lower than others.

What I'm trying to say is, there is always some kind of ranking going on anywhere you go, even though it wouldn't be official. Even mentioning the marital status can be used in belittling tone in certain context, at least in Finnish.

I've been surprised to see class distinction at working places stick so hard. You go to a coffee room and think there you could be equal with others, even though your tasks in work would be lowlier, but often the rank has followed you there as well. You can't sit at any table.

Not longer than about 13 years ago I started at a small newspaper. The offices were in five storeys: first floor was for customer service, second floor for preparing ads, third floor for layout personnel and those reporters, who had to cooperate with layout personnel, while the higher ranked reporters generally had a day job on fourth floor. Management, marketing, IT and billing was done on fifth floor.

All floors had their own coffee rooms, until more progressive editor in chief wanted to unite the whole personnel and they made room for one bigger coffee room. There were still people, who reluctantly mingled with others, because there was the gap between academic and craftsmen education.

I guess it makes you feel safer belonging to a smaller group of your peers by title or rank, even though you can't always place certain groups at work top to bottom. Apparently it makes some of the higher ranked people feel better about themselves.

Sorry, long post...

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uncle phil

to the original question:

depends on who they are and how they carry it...

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"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
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"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
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never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

roachboy

personally i dont particularly care about titles.
i pay attention to them in situations where protocol requires it---i'd likely stick to form if i met the pope for example, rather than say something beginning with "yo ratzinger" and ending with some expletive. it'd be colorful. i would just be thrown out tho. wouldn't even get tv time for it.

it's more apparently a way of using a de facto formal case in english when you're in academicworld. students like titles. i never cared, really. but they did.

i have a ph.d. i suppose that means i could be called doctor. my brother does that, but i think he's making fun. which is fine---if i thought he was serious i'd make him stop.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

snowy

I'd love to call you Doctor, roachboy. It's one of my favorite titles.

I have a high regard for academics, mostly because many of those I've known have put in years of hard work to earn their education/Ph.Ds, and have done a good job of encouraging my own academic development. I like to explain to some of the kiddos I work with that yeah, their parents are doctors, but not the kind of doctor you see at the doctor's office. They think that's funny.

I have always had a hard time growing up with calling my teachers something other than Mr., Mrs., or Ms. So-and-So, and I saw them outside of school in social situations frequently. My sixth-grade teacher played soccer with my mother recreationally, and at my mother's going-away party, Mrs. K. told me I could call her by her first name. I apologized and said I was sorry, but I didn't think I could call her by her first name. I think even now I would struggle with that.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Daniel_

I think that accademic titles, which are earned and awarded by one's peers, have validity.

I think that military titles, earned by service and in an organisation with clear hierarchy also have validity.

Where it all goes tits up is with organisational titles in commercial organisations. The level at which people are titled "manager" in many companies is now so close to unskilled entry level that it's become meaningless. In many British companies we are now starting to have to call senior staff "VP" as the title "Manager" is totally devalued.

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╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Lucifer

Only if you are in the military. As a civilian, I may use the phrase 'asshole', as immortalized by the ticket taker in our ferry terminal while being chewed out by a warrant officer passenger who'd objected to being called 'sir':

"Excuse me, asshole, but I'm a civilian, and to me, your rank means exactly dick!"

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I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls.
- Job 30:29

1123, 6536, 5321

flat5

Titles are ok if the person lives up to them.
I've been a musician for 50 years but I don't have a title other than jazz musician, I suppose. But that's not a formal title.
However, I've been called many things.

mjw

In my mind, a lot of the weight behind a title is how a person earned it. At work I have a decently impressive title, but I did nothing to earn it, so it's meaningless to me. This in mind, I view the whole title structure at the office as little more than ego.

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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Cynthetiq

"What are you going to do about it? Paint strips on your dick and pull rank?"

Ahh, one of my favorite lines about ranks. I don't have one about titles.

Really I don't care because assholes abound in all ranks, titles, and statures in life. It's why my sig is what it is.

Sometimes, a rank/title just helps me identify who is going to be the person to assist me in accomplishing my tasks or goals.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Zeraph

I care very little for titles and ranks unless its a doctor doing surgery on me.

Cynthetiq

What do you call a person in med school who graduated last in their class?

Doctor.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Zeraph

heh, ya kinda scary. Thank gawd for experienced nurses to teach them a thing or two. And also research, assuming your injury has the time anyway....

off topic: how do you get a philosophy doctorate off your front porch?
answer: pay the pizza bill!

bagatelle

I do value academic education, but also the craftsmen, who have put their dedication to something they can do well.

The title is important, when you need to know the expertice level of a person for certain tasks, but I don't value the title much, if the title holder thinks other people are servants to him/her just based on education level.

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Cimarron29414

I call all doctors, "Doctor" if I know they are doctors.

I address all active duty military/law enforcement by their current rank, if I know it.

If someone retired from a full career in military/law enforcement, I address them by their retired rank. It's a personal decision I've made to honor those who served. If I am on a first name basis, then I don't do this.

As for civilian titles, it depends. It's one thing to manage business relationships through hierarchy, titles, and protocol. However, personal respect is earned. I've been in many a company where I had more respect for the janitor or line worker than I did the manager. Work ethic and integrity are far more important to me than your name's subscript.

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Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

filtherton

I think that there are so many more important things about a person than their title or rank. I don't think it makes sense to assume that a person is respectable because of their title. I suspect that there are plenty of scoundrels who've managed to attain rank.

I will use titles when protocol demands it. Other than that, I couldn't care less. I prefer to relate to people as individuals, not in terms set by some external organization (though I recognize that this dynamic frequently can't be avoided).

I call all my professors by their first names because that's what they seem to prefer. When I went to fighting school my teachers all preferred to be addressed by their first names. I'm glad that USian society seems to be moving away from undue formality.

Plan9

...to no formality at all. Where Mom and Dad are Sue and Bob and the end of the world will be the smug silence of everyone being their own superior.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Ourcrazymodern?

...you'll be able to call yourself sir...

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Daniel_

This can itself cause problems!

In the UK, a person is called "Doctor" if they hold a PhD or MBBS (the British equivalent to the American MD qualification). Some dentists have recently started using the title "Doctor" if they hold the BDS degree, but it's not so common.

So far, so good.

The thing a lot of people are not aware of is that more senior doctors, especially surgeons, often have additional qualifications that over-ride the MBBS qualifications. A prime example is Fellowship of the Royal College of Surgeons. This entitles a doctor to add FRCS after their name, and also means that they start calling themselves "Mister" all over again.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

filtherton

I don't call my parents mom and dad out of a sense of formality or protocol.

Plan9

...

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

filtherton

I ain't hatin'.