Faith without Faith in a higher power. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

chriswin8 · 09-03-2010, 02:33 PM

I just has one of the many debates with my mother on Faith. She is forever bringing it up. So i will extend this one to you all.

Can you have faith without having to have faith in a higher power (by any name).

My mother says No, you can not. It is through faith of God (just for ease of use) that gives you the ability to have faith in everything else.

I say Yes you can. Now I do have faith in god. So she may be right. I have faith that when the sun goes down tonight it will come up tomorrow. To me that is a different kind of faith.

Now she says that is because she raised me to have faith in god that allows me to have faith that the sun will come up.

I would like to have your input on this. Am I arguing apples and oranges with her. Or what is going on here.

SecretMethod70 · 09-03-2010, 02:51 PM

Being an atheist, I'm probably not the perspective you're looking for, but I think it's pretty obvious that one can have faith in something (a loved one, for example) without having faith in some higher power. Or, to use your example of the sun rising and setting... if you want to call the laws of physics a higher power then I suppose your mother is somewhat correct, but I have a sneaking suspicion that's not what she means.

Pearl Trade · 09-03-2010, 03:29 PM

I have faith in a higher power, God. I also have faith in the sun rising, my family loving me tomorrow, and myself never losing faith in what matters to me.

I believe someone who lacks faith in a higher power, like God or whatever that may be, can still have faith in other things, like SecretMethod said.

Baraka_Guru · 09-03-2010, 03:58 PM

I was born and raised non-religiously. I consider myself an agnostic atheist in that I have no belief in deities and do not claim to know that none exist.

As far as faith is concerned, I think it's a human attribute, not a godly one. I think faith is hardwired into our brains as a part of our evolutionary development. Since we are social beings, faith has become a component of how we interact and cooperate within groups. Faith is the driving force behind trust (as Smeth referred to with loved ones). Based on that idea, I have faith in many people. The capacity to trust other humans has been essential to our survival and our ability to thrive and build secure and stable societies.

I generally have faith in humanity in that I believe that humans are generally good when they are not enthralled by pain, fear, ignorance, etc. There are always exceptions to the rule of course, and whether you can chalk that up as problems with brain chemistry or behavioral/environmental factors, it doesn't matter so much, as I don't believe that people can be inherently evil. I believe evil to be a construct, not a "tool of the devil." Evil is the outcome of an unhealthy or otherwise misled human.

I suppose this all means that I'm a humanist, and that is where I draw my faith. Though I use the term more loosely than is normally employed by religions.

Of course, it would help to know a bit more about what we consider faith to be.

hunnychile · 09-03-2010, 03:59 PM

Although I dislike labels, I have faith in a "higher power." I'm one of those folks who believes in a Christ consciousness and Buddha and all the biggies rolled into one gigantic positive energy toosie roll of reincarnated Power. It has served me well, All of my life and strange and wonderful Enlightenments happen for (and to) me all the time. Guess I'm one of the lucky few here at tfp.

"Seek and ye shall find..."

chriswin8 · 09-03-2010, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Of course, it would help to know a bit more about what we consider faith to be.

You have a very good point there i will start a new Thread on this. What is Faith with out the constraints of religion.

Here is the other Thread if you are interested. http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/general...ml#post2820019

By all mean please don't stop there please i would love to hear you all out.

Jetée · 09-03-2010, 07:28 PM

I meant this is as an all-encompassing response to a couple other threads debating the merits of faith / religion and its place in a rational world, but those few other discussions have burned out, so I let them be. As this one is blossoming, however, I suppose it should fit just as well:

Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God.

—Heywood Broun

my take:
Though one can readily infer the above quote has a certain tone of snarky contention to it, the way I interpret it as is how those who truly have Faith, whether it be in themselves, destiny, coincidence, an almighty being, tiny midi0chlorians, or in nothing at all, they all try to convince themselves that their supposition is true, and their stance, unwavering. It's a commentary on the obstinance of those who are unwilling to admit that they know nothing at all, I think.

My Faith is mutable, according to what I allow myself to recognize, and what I try to learn.

chriswin8 · 09-03-2010, 09:44 PM

Jetee for give me I am not sure i see what you are getting at?

Jetée · 09-03-2010, 11:04 PM

Faith is what you make of it.

Whether it is based on facts or sheer intuition, so long as you have the conviction to support your claim, this is your personal Faith.

(i.e. I have faith that I will never cease hearing the phrase 'what do you mean'? as a response to any number of my contentions.)

lurkette · 09-04-2010, 04:57 AM

I would ask how your mother defines "faith." Is it belief in the probability of something in the absence of evidence? Is it hope? Optimism? Trust? There are a lot of ways to define "faith," and very few of them seem to be necessarily predicated in a belief in some higher power.

09-03-2010, 02:33 PM	#1 (permalink)
chriswin8 Tilted Location: Buffalo NY	Faith without Faith in a higher power. I just has one of the many debates with my mother on Faith. She is forever bringing it up. So i will extend this one to you all. Can you have faith without having to have faith in a higher power (by any name). My mother says No, you can not. It is through faith of God (just for ease of use) that gives you the ability to have faith in everything else. I say Yes you can. Now I do have faith in god. So she may be right. I have faith that when the sun goes down tonight it will come up tomorrow. To me that is a different kind of faith. Now she says that is because she raised me to have faith in god that allows me to have faith that the sun will come up. I would like to have your input on this. Am I arguing apples and oranges with her. Or what is going on here. __________________ I reject your reality, and substitute my own.

09-03-2010, 02:51 PM	#2 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Being an atheist, I'm probably not the perspective you're looking for, but I think it's pretty obvious that one can have faith in something (a loved one, for example) without having faith in some higher power. Or, to use your example of the sun rising and setting... if you want to call the laws of physics a higher power then I suppose your mother is somewhat correct, but I have a sneaking suspicion that's not what she means. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

09-03-2010, 03:29 PM	#3 (permalink)
Pearl Trade Addict Location: Houston, Texas	I have faith in a higher power, God. I also have faith in the sun rising, my family loving me tomorrow, and myself never losing faith in what matters to me. I believe someone who lacks faith in a higher power, like God or whatever that may be, can still have faith in other things, like SecretMethod said. __________________ Our revenge will be the laughter of our children. Give me convenience or give me death!

09-03-2010, 03:58 PM	#4 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	I was born and raised non-religiously. I consider myself an agnostic atheist in that I have no belief in deities and do not claim to know that none exist. As far as faith is concerned, I think it's a human attribute, not a godly one. I think faith is hardwired into our brains as a part of our evolutionary development. Since we are social beings, faith has become a component of how we interact and cooperate within groups. Faith is the driving force behind trust (as Smeth referred to with loved ones). Based on that idea, I have faith in many people. The capacity to trust other humans has been essential to our survival and our ability to thrive and build secure and stable societies. I generally have faith in humanity in that I believe that humans are generally good when they are not enthralled by pain, fear, ignorance, etc. There are always exceptions to the rule of course, and whether you can chalk that up as problems with brain chemistry or behavioral/environmental factors, it doesn't matter so much, as I don't believe that people can be inherently evil. I believe evil to be a construct, not a "tool of the devil." Evil is the outcome of an unhealthy or otherwise misled human. I suppose this all means that I'm a humanist, and that is where I draw my faith. Though I use the term more loosely than is normally employed by religions. Of course, it would help to know a bit more about what we consider faith to be. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 09-03-2010 at 04:01 PM..

09-03-2010, 03:59 PM	#5 (permalink)
hunnychile Alien Anthropologist Location: Between Boredom and Nirvana	Although I dislike labels, I have faith in a "higher power." I'm one of those folks who believes in a Christ consciousness and Buddha and all the biggies rolled into one gigantic positive energy toosie roll of reincarnated Power. It has served me well, All of my life and strange and wonderful Enlightenments happen for (and to) me all the time. Guess I'm one of the lucky few here at tfp. "Seek and ye shall find..." __________________ "I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB

09-03-2010, 07:28 PM	#7 (permalink)
Jetée The Reforms Location: Rarely, if ever, here or there, but always in transition	I meant this is as an all-encompassing response to a couple other threads debating the merits of faith / religion and its place in a rational world, but those few other discussions have burned out, so I let them be. As this one is blossoming, however, I suppose it should fit just as well: Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God. —Heywood Broun my take: Though one can readily infer the above quote has a certain tone of snarky contention to it, the way I interpret it as is how those who truly have Faith, whether it be in themselves, destiny, coincidence, an almighty being, tiny midi0chlorians, or in nothing at all, they all try to convince themselves that their supposition is true, and their stance, unwavering. It's a commentary on the obstinance of those who are unwilling to admit that they know nothing at all, I think. My Faith is mutable, according to what I allow myself to recognize, and what I try to learn. __________________ As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves. —Mohandas K. Gandhi

09-03-2010, 09:44 PM	#8 (permalink)
chriswin8 Tilted Location: Buffalo NY	Jetee for give me I am not sure i see what you are getting at? __________________ I reject your reality, and substitute my own.

09-03-2010, 11:04 PM	#9 (permalink)
Jetée The Reforms Location: Rarely, if ever, here or there, but always in transition	Faith is what you make of it. Whether it is based on facts or sheer intuition, so long as you have the conviction to support your claim, this is your personal Faith. (i.e. I have faith that I will never cease hearing the phrase 'what do you mean'? as a response to any number of my contentions.) __________________ As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves. —Mohandas K. Gandhi

09-04-2010, 04:57 AM	#10 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	I would ask how your mother defines "faith." Is it belief in the probability of something in the absence of evidence? Is it hope? Optimism? Trust? There are a lot of ways to define "faith," and very few of them seem to be necessarily predicated in a belief in some higher power. __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France