09-01-2010, 06:23 AM | #1 (permalink) | |
Paladin of the Palate
Location: Redneckville, NC
|
Army Revises Basic Training for "unfit recruits"
Linky
Quote:
Just seems like we need to be combating this problem not by cutting back on how hard we train our soldiers and the preliminary tests to get in. Is this a good change for the military or a step in the wrong direction?
__________________
Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich Last edited by LordEden; 09-01-2010 at 09:31 AM.. |
|
09-01-2010, 07:00 AM | #3 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
|
Beggers can't be choosers.
They need to keep the rosters full, and so they're dealing with a social issue that's a hindrance. It might, on the surface, seem like they're lowering their standards and/or making training "easier." However, the reality is that their recruits are increasingly getting injured. If you know anything about fitness training, it's important to gauge it to the individual. You can always bring people up to a physical standard. Just because it happens more gradually, it doesn't mean it's easier. It takes longer, but the goal should be the same: combat-ready personnel. I wouldn't criticize the U.S. Army for their strategy. I would rather criticize social conventions, a lack of public education, and a failure of personal responsibility for the terrible shape recruits find themselves in.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
09-01-2010, 07:21 AM | #4 (permalink) | |
Baltimoron
Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD
|
Quote:
I'm significantly overweight. I know that if I went out and tried to just run three miles straight, even though I'm still young I could die, or at the very least do some serious damage to myself. But if I went out and jogged a little, than increased that some every day eventually I would be able to make that three-mile run just fine. I don't foresee a world where the term "doughboy" comes back as a term for soldier for all the wrong reasons. If anything, I see the military creating multiple "basic training" courses based on the health of recruits that allow those already in shape to move on to other things while allowing unhealthier recruits to do what they need to do at a more realistic pace.
__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun |
|
09-01-2010, 08:35 AM | #6 (permalink) |
Kick Ass Kunoichi
Location: Oregon
|
I think in some ways it also reflects our changing knowledge about exercise and sports science. There is no point in doing high impact exercises if a lower impact exercise will achieve the same result without the added potential for injury.
__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau |
09-01-2010, 08:42 AM | #7 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: At my daughter's beck and call.
|
Still and all, it's pretty damning to our present lifestyles (in general) when we
cannot, at first blush, do what our grandfathers were able to do. Is our modern take on things "advanced"? Or are we sinking deeper into a corrupt way of living?
__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state. -Noam Chomsky Love is a verb, not a noun. -My Mom The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later. -Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928 |
09-01-2010, 08:48 AM | #8 (permalink) |
Upright
Location: Here there and everywhere.
|
I am with snowy on this one. I was in the military back in the early 80's and spent six weeks running everywhere carrying a telephone pole between 5 of us. Never did carry a pole after basic training. I also ended up with a fractured ankle and had to spend weeks in rehab. It seems most of the exercises were a way to further break your spirit so that the "military doctrine" was easier to install.
These days, working with the USFS I see a lot more of the "modern" techniques of fitness being employed. There is a greater emphasis on total fitness rather than just pure stamina. My crew even does yoga---tis harder than one might think.
__________________
☻/ G~man......... /▌ "Life may not be the party we hoped for---- / \ but while we're here, we might as well dance ! ! ! " |
09-01-2010, 08:50 AM | #9 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: At my daughter's beck and call.
|
Quote:
__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state. -Noam Chomsky Love is a verb, not a noun. -My Mom The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later. -Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928 |
|
09-01-2010, 09:21 AM | #10 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
|
Yeah, the bigger picture is that we've shifted from a society built mainly on manual labour to one that has a high proportion of "knowledge workers." Thanks to technology, we have less demand for hands-on labourers.
Just look at the changes in the agriculture industry alone. Much of manufacturing is now done overseas. We're a society that provides more services, creativity, and information than ever before, and we're paying for it physically. Of course, the changes in the food chain are substantial as well. Back in the '50s, shopping for groceries was a different experience, I'm sure. How many of us can do a pullup? Think about that. If we're ever in a situation where we need to grab onto something above our heads and pull ourselves to safety....how many could do it? I suppose it's difficult to say because adrenaline and a will to live makes for a complex equation. But still. If there were a huge shift back to manual labour, it would be a rough transition.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
09-01-2010, 09:26 AM | #11 (permalink) |
Future Bureaucrat
|
I just came out of Basic Training from Fort Jackson on August 26th. I had no idea that our PT was a new program implemented this year. Regardless, despite the new PT program being 'easier,' I took away marked gains, including lowering my 2 Mile run time by almost 2 minutes. That's pretty remarkable, considering that we did not run that much (we went on ability group runs at most 8 times in my 10 weeks there). We also did 30/60s (Sprint for 30 seconds, walk for 60, repeat for 8 reps), and later on 60/120s.
However, many, *many* of our recruits had a hard time passing our PT standards (which is 50%--basically about 45 pushups, 50 sit ups or so, and about 17:00 in the 2 mile). I really do think the current PT program could use some more work. As the article mentioned, a lot of recruits bust up their hips, especially during road marches (2mile, then 5 mile, then 7 mile, then 10 mile march with about ~50lbs of gear). I knew one hold-over who fractured his hip and was chaptered out because he stepped in a pot hole during a road march. So there was a lot of emphasis on hip-stability drills. We also did things like the side-bridge, the prone row (think super-man), quadriplex, etc. I personally think this is the right way for the Army to go--that is to emphasize productive, full body work outs that target small muscles which may be needed for agility and survivability. However, I also think the intensity of our PT program is lacking. The only time I really made upper body gains was when I did push ups and sit ups on my own during free time. Most of the time we would do maybe 20 push ups in the morning, maybe 5 pull ups, and a couple of core exercises. Occasionally they'd have us do push ups for 45 or 60 seconds, then sit ups for 45 or 60 seconds, but that depended on how much the recruits pushed themselves. We had graduates who couldn't do the side bridge for 5 seconds. In addition, when we got smoked, it depended on how disciplined the recruits were. I'd do my best to do all the push ups and get the concomitant strength benefits, but more than once I saw some of the recruits say, "oh fuck this" and just lay on the ground while everyone else did push ups(and they graduated.) So in short. Good PT program, bad on lack of intensity. ===================== *ETA:* Also wanted to add, that some of the people who could not meet PT standards were also some of my best soldiers, who carried around our M249s (a 16lb brick) in addition to their packs. That is to say, some of the standards that the Army requires have very little to do with field utility. Last edited by KirStang; 09-01-2010 at 09:38 AM.. |
09-01-2010, 02:43 PM | #12 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
|
Quote:
I've ALWAYS felt that sprints in full combat gear weight should be done as PT as opposed to long distance runs. Marine Corpse "humps", very fast paced hiking in full gear, are combat simulated so they are acceptable but simple running makes little sense. Pilates as opposed to situps, even though they're often seen as feminine, make more sense as well. Lower levels of back and tailbone issues arrise with the same level of workout and strength training.
__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas |
|
09-01-2010, 03:22 PM | #13 (permalink) |
Eccentric insomniac
Location: North Carolina
|
To add to Kirstang's comments:
I went through basic under the old program and my 2 mile run time went from a 17+ minute two mile to a 12:20 two mile at the end. We used to run nearly every day. It was extremely challenging (for someone fresh to the Army and PT) but resulted in a nearly 100% pass-rate (except for a couple injured guys) and the average score was at least 260 IIRC. I can tell you that my career has involved running with full-kit through the mountains in Afghanistan at altitude...Cardio is still rule #1. Also, life in the Army proper is not easy unless you are in a support MOS...you may survive basic under the new program only to be broken by your new unit. If you are Infantry a PT score test of less than 270 is frowned upon and you will be expected to run nearly every day. Rightly so. The Army is lowering it's standards not because it wants to but because it has no choice. People who would not have passed Basic under the old program will now go to their units and be liabilities...ticking time bombs who may not break until they are deployed and others depend upon then to be able to suck it up and perform.
__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence Last edited by Slims; 09-01-2010 at 03:24 PM.. |
09-01-2010, 03:29 PM | #14 (permalink) |
comfortably numb...
Super Moderator
Location: upstate
|
hehe...
i hope we're never in a non-nuclear, "world war," situation again or we're dead in the water...
__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it. |
09-01-2010, 03:39 PM | #15 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
|
Is this the point in the thread where we turn to a discussion of empire and decadence?
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
09-01-2010, 03:54 PM | #16 (permalink) | |
Future Bureaucrat
|
Quote:
Regardless, I was pretty disappointed that we lowered our standards. |
|
09-01-2010, 07:42 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
Insane
|
Quote:
__________________
The user formerly known as BlingBling |
|
09-04-2010, 10:36 PM | #19 (permalink) |
Hi floor! Make me a samwich.
Location: Ontario (in the stray cat complex)
|
What I have never understood, is why not have an extended boot camp regime for those that are overweight or less fit but still really have the urge to enlist. I have heard that they have pre-training things that one can do to prep them for boot camp, but some may need the boot camp life of someone waking them up at dawn and forcing them to work out.
I say start those who are less fit with exercises that are less intense but that will eventually work them up to the point where fully "fit" recruits are when they begin normal boot camp. Then make them do the 20 mile uphill grinding runs, the endless sit ups and push-ups.
__________________
Frivolity, at the edge of a Moral Swamp, hears Hymn-Singing in the Distance and dons the Galoshes of Remorse. ~Edward Gorey |
09-05-2010, 06:42 AM | #20 (permalink) |
Tilted
Location: Buffalo NY
|
I would love the Boot camp life thing. I always wanted to join the military but they wouldn't take me when i graduated from HS. I have a heart issue that medically dqed me.
I think its great that they are re working there PT program. There are easier ways to get the same results, and now they are learning that. I know the old PT was more for breaking a persons will more then there health but if your going to be badly injured from it perhaps there are other ways of doing that.
__________________
I reject your reality, and substitute my own. |
09-06-2010, 07:34 PM | #21 (permalink) | ||
I'm calmer than you are, dude
Location: North Carolina
|
Quote:
From what I understand, the overweight recruits were put on a severely restricted diet, the underweight recruits were given a calorie/protein heavy diet. Everyone participated in formal physical fitness training in the morning and evening with the rest of the day consisting of strenuous random activities until they could meet the pre-entry physical fitness standards. I think a recruit could spend up to 6 months in Fat Camp before being booted from the Army. Quote:
Echoing Slims; God help these sad bastards when they get to the real Army.
__________________
Calmer than you are... Last edited by Walt; 09-06-2010 at 07:38 PM.. |
||
09-06-2010, 07:46 PM | #22 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
|
That sounds like 3 days of fucking awesome. What's the harm in splitting people into groups based on physical performance and training each group to maximum efficiency? Is that too expensive or difficult or something? If I can sprint 8 laps and the guy that sat on the bus next to me can't do 1, how are either of us being made all we can be if we're being trained side by side?
|
09-06-2010, 08:06 PM | #23 (permalink) | |
I'm calmer than you are, dude
Location: North Carolina
|
Quote:
---- They already divide up recruits as necessary. Those that need remedial PT go to Fat Camp. Those that are deemed able to begin Army PT go to a Basic Training Company. Once there, everyone receives a diagnostic physical fitness test. When the results are tallied, the recruits are divided up in to ability groups A-D. Group A is the fast kids; the guys who ran their 2 miles in 13:30 or less. Group B is the guys who ran 13:31-14:30. Group C is 14:31-15:30. Group D is everyone else. Monday, Wednesday and Friday are the long run days. On those days, everyone stretches out together and then breaks up in to their ability groups. The ability groups then take off at a pace/distance that is deemed reasonable for the group, plus 10% faster and farther. Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday are push-ups, sit-ups, sprints, grass drills, etc. Everyone does those together (because there is no danger of of one person slowing down everyone else). Sundays are for cleaning, re-cleaning, re-re-cleaning the barracks and surrounding areas, finding a hidey-hole to sleep and perfecting your masturbation techniques.
__________________
Calmer than you are... |
|
09-07-2010, 08:01 AM | #25 (permalink) | |
I'm calmer than you are, dude
Location: North Carolina
|
Quote:
Ex:
* A 3-5 second rush involves moving from a prone or kneeling position to a standing position. Then running really fast in the direction you want to go for 3-5 seconds. After 3-5 seconds, it is assumed that the bad guy has seen you and is now getting ready to shoot at you so you lay back down. Stand up. Run. Lay down. Bounding is essentially the same thing but you bring a couple of friends along. Your buddies will shoot at the bad guys to keep their heads down while you run. When you have completed your sprint, you will then shoot at the bad guys so your buddy can run. Repeat as necessary.
__________________
Calmer than you are... |
|
Tags |
army, basic, recruits, revises, training, unfit |
|
|